Spice-up my mentalist

[Hugh Neilson]

What I've seen is Ego Attack, while very useful in certain situations, lags behind once your average damage exceeds the opponent's defenses. You are always paying for that AVLD. That ends up really hurting you at higher point levels.

Especially in 5e, where AVAD, mental defense is +1 1/2 - buy an Ego Attack, limit it to be Visible and Normal Range, and you should get an attack targeted by ECV rather than OCV/DCV that does WAY more damage for the same point cost.

 

To me, it's less point levels than campaign norms. If the campaign norm is 12 DC's and 18 - 24 defenses, with few characters having mental defenses, then the Blast will be 12d6, and pass 18 - 24 STUN past average defenses on an average gut. The Mental Blast will pass 21 STUN (same average) past defenses. If we change the average normal defenses, the Blast becomes more, or less, effective. If we make Mental Defense more common, the Blast becomes more effective by comparison.

 

If we move up to an 18 DC standard, and average Defenses move up to, say, 35 - 40 to compensate (no one wants to be Stunned, and they need at least a 30 CON at the low end of those defenses to make it less than common), we're getting 23 - 28 STUN past defenses, so 24.5 on average. A 9d6 Mental Blast averages 31.5, so the average character needs some Mental Defenses to avoid the Mental attack becoming superior. And it still targets mDCV, and has LoS and IPE, at no extra cost. To me, "at no extra cost" = "free".

 

 

Now with things like Mind Control, at higher levels you need to start buying a base amount of MD and Ego. A classic 12D6 character can get by with a 12 Ego. In a 15D6 game, a 14 Ego and 5 points MD is enough to keep mental powers from dominating you. In an 18D6 game, a normal hero probably wants an 18 Ego and about 10 MD. A mentalist can still get 30 past on you, but you'll probably make your breakout roll unless he just rolls great.

This, to me, is why mentalists can be amazingly frustrating to play. Once we move beyond doing STUN, no one wants those other powers to affect them, so they buy enough Ego and Mental Defense to neutralize them. 18d6 x 3.5 average = 63, less 14 - 49 (btw, 6e dropped "get 1/5 your Ego as free mental defense by purchasing any mental defense" in the spirit of getting what you paid for, but you would presumably just buy a bit more to compensate). He gets exactly +30, and you have about an 80% chance of making the 13- breakout roll. So the mentalist fires off all his special powers, to find they are ineffectual most of the time, while his teammates KO the opponents. Gee, I wonder why he wants to just use his Mental Blast, and leverage his LoS and IPE benefits...

 

Screw that - 12d6 Cumulative, with the target level of +30, will get 72 points on you (the maximum points on the dice is my cap) in three shots (42 - 14 = 28 per hit). That's Ego +30, with -4 to the breakout roll, so it can actually do something. And I'll still look to leverage IPE and LoS, to get a 3 shot Rapid Attack.

 

Now, if I can use my powers a bit more subtly, so everything is not something you are "Violently opposed to doing" or similar level for other powers, so much the better. Making you attack your teammates is tough, but making you switch to a different one of my teammates may be easier. Mental Illusions to perceive friends as enemies and vice versa is a +20, as I recall.

 

And, since I probably have a Multipower already, why shouldn't I follow your Megascale lead - it's only a few points to have a slot of 1d6 massively cumulative, penetrating Mind Control to use on you if we get some "alone time" after my basic attack hits, so I can convert that +30 Mind Control, -4 Breakout to +50 (so you remember what you did but believe it was your own decision to do so), -30 Breakout Roll. Enjoy waiting for that 3.

 

It's consistent with the source material - it's pretty rare for anyone to break out of Mesmero or Purple Man's control.

 

[ASIDE - yeah, the Hulk probably has Megascale Leaping - how often does anyone follow him? I don't think "everyone has Megascale" is a realistic interpretation of the source material]

 

[ASIDE II - that quote function gets wonky sometimes - splitting the post sometimes helps]

 

[ASIDE III – placing heavy limits on LoS while allowing plenty of lenient rulings that make closing the distance or “finding cover” easy is just a rules-disguised means of enforcing the social contract.]

[massey]

I believe it takes more than two phases to rob a bank. The prospect that there is a crowd of bystanders suggests that events have occurred prior to the PC's arrival. I can't speak for your games, but in ours, a scenario is seldom framed around "the heroes accidentally all happen to be within a half phase move of a crime they have no idea is about to be committed". It happens on occasion, but is not the norm. One situation which tends to crop up on occasion (not just in our games, I think, especially reading published scenarios) is that a crime in progress is reported on the news.

 

 

Just seeing somebody normally is all it takes for LoS powers to target. If the heroes are rushing through a crowded city street (not fighting in a section within a perimeter cleared by the police) the issues become quite different. We can hypothesize many different scenarios. I picked one it would be pretty easy to expect in a typical Supers game, where the mentalist definitely has some opportunities. I would expect the mentalist, or any team strategist, to look for opportunities to maximize the benefits of his abilities. As noted previously, since the villains often have a plan in mind, and are commonly expecting Heroes to interfere, they have the "planning/home field advantage" fairly often.

 

 

"A character with MegaMovement is not limited to stopping in even increments of 1” (however 1” is defined). For example, suppose a character has MegaTeleportation (1” = 1,000 km). Using it, he could Teleport in even increments of 1,000 km, but he could also Teleport 1,200 km, or 4,136.278 km, or any other distance. Similarly, if a character has MegaRunning, he can stop anywhere he wants to once he’s moved as far as the minimum distance for the power."It has been noted upthread that he must move at least one increment. That's no real issue in 6e, where it is scalable, nor in 5e if purchased with scalable, although if Marvin is 119">

 

He won't be attacking. He can be attacked. You are speculating that there will be characters with range PSLs since they aren't very expensive. Wouldn't Marvin's team also have such abilities, then? Black Arrow can fire off a volley of arrows before your next phase, attacking your halved DCV, right?

 

 

By that logic, pretty much all of the opponents should also have Megascale movement, so Marvin can get far away again before you can attack him. Perhaps he can Teleport. He can use that to reposition (maybe up in a building as you suggest upthread), although he won't be attacking this phase. Maybe next time, two Rapid Attacks will be enough to take you down.

 

 

I have bolded what I believe is the crux of our disagreement. I can buy 1d6 of Mental Blast for 10 points. I can buy 1d6 of Blast, mOCV vs mDCV (+1/4), AVAD (mental defense; +1) for 11.25 points. It is still visible, with normal range modifiers, and costs more than the Mental Blast. Adding LoS Range and IPE would make it cost more. Therefore, I submit that IPE and LoS are bundled with mental attacks for free. In 5e, I don't have Attack versus Alternate Combat Value. But it will cost me +1 1/2 for AVAD, mental defense, IIRC. So that's 12.5 points for 1d6 Blast versus Mental Defense, which is still visible and has normal range modifiers unless I pay more for IPE and LoS. Again, mental powers get LoS and IPE for free.

 

 

A lot of this is getting into how teams operate, how the scenario is set up, how much forewarning people have, things like that.  That is all very situation specific.  My point related to that was that you need all those situation specific factors to be in your favor to really benefit from the mentalist's innate advantages.  That's what I meant when I said (originally) that your mentalist wasn't paying for that stuff.  You might come up with good in-story reasons why the crowd of onlookers and the TV cameras are properly positioned, how the mentalist can be so far away and maintain a clear line of sight, etc.  But that's a matter of the GM setting up a scenario and saying "I want it to happen this way."

 

As far as the mentalist getting things "for free" or "at a discount", you are going with the assumption that separately purchasing the Advantages to turn an Energy Blast into an Ego Attack is the appropriate way to cost the power.  I am saying that is not the appropriate way to cost it.  I am saying that Ego Attack is not worth more than 10 points per D6.  If the combination of Advantages to turn EB into Ego Attack would cost more than that, than those Advantages, in that specific combination, are overpriced.

 

The Megamovement example was used to show that it is very very cheap to cover long distances in Hero.  Can you then Megamove away from me?  Sure you can.  And I'll spend my next phase Megamovementing towards you again, and on and on.  The point is, even being several miles away and looking at the battlefield with a telescope, is not protection from a character being right next to you on his next phase.

[massey]

 

Especially in 5e, where AVAD, mental defense is +1 1/2 - buy an Ego Attack, limit it to be Visible and Normal Range, and you should get an attack targeted by ECV rather than OCV/DCV that does WAY more damage for the same point cost.

To me, it's less point levels than campaign norms. If the campaign norm is 12 DC's and 18 - 24 defenses, with few characters having mental defenses, then the Blast will be 12d6, and pass 18 - 24 STUN past average defenses on an average gut. The Mental Blast will pass 21 STUN (same average) past defenses. If we change the average normal defenses, the Blast becomes more, or less, effective. If we make Mental Defense more common, the Blast becomes more effective by comparison.

If we move up to an 18 DC standard, and average Defenses move up to, say, 35 - 40 to compensate (no one wants to be Stunned, and they need at least a 30 CON at the low end of those defenses to make it less than common), we're getting 23 - 28 STUN past defenses, so 24.5 on average. A 9d6 Mental Blast averages 31.5, so the average character needs some Mental Defenses to avoid the Mental attack becoming superior. And it still targets mDCV, and has LoS and IPE, at no extra cost. To me, "at no extra cost" = "free".



This, to me, is why mentalists can be amazingly frustrating to play. Once we move beyond doing STUN, no one wants those other powers to affect them, so they buy enough Ego and Mental Defense to neutralize them. 18d6 x 3.5 average = 63, less 14 - 49 (btw, 6e dropped "get 1/5 your Ego as free mental defense by purchasing any mental defense" in the spirit of getting what you paid for, but you would presumably just buy a bit more to compensate). He gets exactly +30, and you have about an 80% chance of making the 13- breakout roll. So the mentalist fires off all his special powers, to find they are ineffectual most of the time, while his teammates KO the opponents. Gee, I wonder why he wants to just use his Mental Blast, and leverage his LoS and IPE benefits...

Screw that - 12d6 Cumulative, with the target level of +30, will get 72 points on you (the maximum points on the dice is my cap) in three shots (42 - 14 = 28 per hit). That's Ego +30, with -4 to the breakout roll, so it can actually do something. And I'll still look to leverage IPE and LoS, to get a 3 shot Rapid Attack.

Now, if I can use my powers a bit more subtly, so everything is not something you are "Violently opposed to doing" or similar level for other powers, so much the better. Making you attack your teammates is tough, but making you switch to a different one of my teammates may be easier. Mental Illusions to perceive friends as enemies and vice versa is a +20, as I recall.

And, since I probably have a Multipower already, why shouldn't I follow your Megascale lead - it's only a few points to have a slot of 1d6 massively cumulative, penetrating Mind Control to use on you if we get some "alone time" after my basic attack hits, so I can convert that +30 Mind Control, -4 Breakout to +50 (so you remember what you did but believe it was your own decision to do so), -30 Breakout Roll. Enjoy waiting for that 3.

It's consistent with the source material - it's pretty rare for anyone to break out of Mesmero or Purple Man's control.

[ASIDE - yeah, the Hulk probably has Megascale Leaping - how often does anyone follow him? I don't think "everyone has Megascale" is a realistic interpretation of the source material]

[ASIDE II - that quote function gets wonky sometimes - splitting the post sometimes helps]

[ASIDE III – placing heavy limits on LoS while allowing plenty of lenient rulings that make closing the distance or “finding cover” easy is just a rules-disguised means of enforcing the social contract.]

 

I rarely see people play mentalists.  That's why I think they aren't overpowered.  We also use a lot of combat maneuvers in our game.  If my Energy Blast gets (on average) 20 Stun past defenses, then when I haymaker I'll probably get 34 past defenses.  If I push and haymaker that's 41 past.  Whereas if my Ego Attack gets 20 past defenses, haymaker gets me 27, and pushing gets me 30 past.  I'm a lot more likely to exceed an opponent's Con, or knock him unconscious outright, when I can get a lot of "cheap" extra dice.

 

Yeah, a rapid attack against someone who has non-existent mental defense can be very effective.  But I don't think it's any more effective than my better haymaker.

 

In comics, mentalists are usually very effective.  But in a game, it's no fun for your character to be taken away from you so you can't do anything.  So the source material has to be balanced against having fun.  Mentalists have a lot of things, even with the normal Ego +30 rules, that they can do to be effective.  Mind Controlling the other guy to make him shoot himself or his friends is rarely the best move.  Mentalists are great when you're Mind Controlling Ego 10 guards or cops.  They're incredibly useful for out of combat stuff.  But at that point, counting hexes of distance and range modifiers is not really at issue.

 

I think megascale movement is pretty common.  Most of the time you see it when a hero shows up out of nowhere.  Now it's true that a lot of Marvel characters don't display high levels of it.  Wolverine and Cyclops aren't really the poster boys for that.  But most fliers seem to be able to zoom off, disappearing into the distance pretty quickly.  That's megamovement to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

I rarely see people play mentalists.  That's why I think they aren't overpowered.

I think any extra power is nerfed by the social contract, whether enforced by "snipers aren't heroic" or a liberal Megascale interpretations, or whatever other approach you take. They are then further penalized by "everything requires EGO +30" interpretations, or its cousin "then everyone significant gets a 20 EGO and 15 Mental Defense". It's no different than neutralizing a Brick by givinhg all important combatants an extra 20 PD, but we accept nerfing mentalists where we would not accept nerfing bricks.

 

We also use a lot of combat maneuvers in our game.  If my Energy Blast gets (on average) 20 Stun past defenses, then when I haymaker I'll probably get 34 past defenses.  If I push and haymaker that's 41 past.

Wait, so everyone in your games has Megascale movement, and none of them have the sense to move 2 meters away from the guy winding up for a haymaker? Once that DCV drops by 5, my players would be all over that. You might manage one or two before people start delaying actions to wait for your DCV to drop by 5!

 

In my games, Pushing is rare for over and above heroics. 12 END is a lot, and we're a "heroics, not it's PS 12 so I have a recovery coming up" group. There's quite a split on pushing between groups.

 

Whereas if my Ego Attack gets 20 past defenses, haymaker gets me 27, and pushing gets me 30 past.  I'm a lot more likely to exceed an opponent's Con, or knock him unconscious outright, when I can get a lot of "cheap" extra dice.

Last I looked, Rapid Attack was also a combat maneuver. If I'm getting 20 past your defenses with one attack, getting 60 past with 3 seems like it will KO you pretty quick. Granted, it's not goint to STUN you.

 

Yeah, a rapid attack against someone who has non-existent mental defense can be very effective.  But I don't think it's any more effective than my better haymaker.

Last I looked, 40 was more than 34, and 60 was a lot more than 41. That suggests a Rapid Attack Ego Attack is pretty competitive with the Pushed Haymaker. DCV cost is comparable, so either one of us might be a target for anyone paying attention right after either maneuver. But I may be able to be far enough away to make that counterattack more difficult to pull off, and I don't need an extra phase to finish my attack.

 

I think megascale movement is pretty common.  Most of the time you see it when a hero shows up out of nowhere.  Now it's true that a lot of Marvel characters don't display high levels of it.  Wolverine and Cyclops aren't really the poster boys for that.  But most fliers seem to be able to zoom off, disappearing into the distance pretty quickly.  That's megamovement to me.

I think it's a fairly common non-combat movement power. But it seems like when the Hulk leaps off, he does not get chased by those "very common" megamovement powers. He's just gone - scene over. Mentalists, especially heroic ones, aren't that common, and they tend not to have the full range of mental attacks most Hero mentalists purchase. They're a different bunch in the source material. The disconnect between the source material and the game is probably one reason mentalists aren't a common PC choice. But leverage those free advantages (and they most definitely ARE free) and they can be played quite abusively. So we don't generally permit them to leverage their freebies, and we don't tend to let other archetypes build snipers either.

[massey]

I think any extra power is nerfed by the social contract, whether enforced by "snipers aren't heroic" or a liberal Megascale interpretations, or whatever other approach you take. They are then further penalized by "everything requires EGO +30" interpretations, or its cousin "then everyone significant gets a 20 EGO and 15 Mental Defense". It's no different than neutralizing a Brick by givinhg all important combatants an extra 20 PD, but we accept nerfing mentalists where we would not accept nerfing bricks.

 

 

Well, some of those are very different.  "Social contract" and "metagamey behavior"  aren't the same thing.

 

Generally characters get built to avoid a one-shot kill.  You want enough PD and ED so you aren't Stunned by the average attack (or even a little above average).  This isn't "nerfing" the Brick because the martial artist tries to find a way to get a 25 PD.  In a 12D6 game, I've found that most people are comfortable with between a 10 and 14 Ego.  On a good roll, or a haymaker, a mentalist can still get +30 and may be able to keep them from breaking out for a phase or two.

 

What I've seen is that some of the people who play mentalists think that anything that doesn't require +30 isn't worth doing.  They want to mentally crush someone.  "Oh I can't make him drop his force field in the middle of a fight and then shoot himself with his RKA?  What a waste."  It's a lot easier to do +10 Ego stuff, and can be effective if you've got a good plan.  But if you're playing in a higher D6 game, players are going to be aware that they're leaving a massive "off" button available if they don't take something to defend against mental powers.  In an 18D6 game, you wouldn't expect characters to run around with 20 PD and ED.  Why should they do that with mental powers?

 

 

 

Wait, so everyone in your games has Megascale movement, and none of them have the sense to move 2 meters away from the guy winding up for a haymaker? Once that DCV drops by 5, my players would be all over that. You might manage one or two before people start delaying actions to wait for your DCV to drop by 5!

 

In my games, Pushing is rare for over and above heroics. 12 END is a lot, and we're a "heroics, not it's PS 12 so I have a recovery coming up" group. There's quite a split on pushing between groups.

 

 

To use haymaker effectively, you just have to learn how to use the Speed chart.  A brick with a 4 Spd probably isn't the best candidate to use it.

 

 

 

Last I looked, Rapid Attack was also a combat maneuver. If I'm getting 20 past your defenses with one attack, getting 60 past with 3 seems like it will KO you pretty quick. Granted, it's not goint to STUN you.

 

 

Last I looked, 40 was more than 34, and 60 was a lot more than 41. That suggests a Rapid Attack Ego Attack is pretty competitive with the Pushed Haymaker. DCV cost is comparable, so either one of us might be a target for anyone paying attention right after either maneuver. But I may be able to be far enough away to make that counterattack more difficult to pull off, and I don't need an extra phase to finish my attack.

 

 

I think it's a fairly common non-combat movement power. But it seems like when the Hulk leaps off, he does not get chased by those "very common" megamovement powers. He's just gone - scene over. Mentalists, especially heroic ones, aren't that common, and they tend not to have the full range of mental attacks most Hero mentalists purchase. They're a different bunch in the source material. The disconnect between the source material and the game is probably one reason mentalists aren't a common PC choice. But leverage those free advantages (and they most definitely ARE free) and they can be played quite abusively. So we don't generally permit them to leverage their freebies, and we don't tend to let other archetypes build snipers either.

 

Rapid attack is useful too.  Whether it's better or worse than haymaker is going to depend on what your defenses are.

 

To be fair, most people are very relieved when the Hulk chooses to leave combat.  They tend to not want to chase after him.  But I don't think that Thor or Iron Man are going to have any trouble going after him if they feel the need to do so.  How common is it?  Imagine in a comic, there's a sniper way down the street who starts shooting at the heroes.  Is there someone on the team that can cover that distance very quickly?  I think almost any flying character can probably cover a few city blocks in one comic book panel.  There'll be a "whoosh" sound, a streak of color that matches the hero's costume, and then in the next panel the guy is hovering there in front of the villain.  Game effect is megascale movement.

 

Snipers aren't really that useful in our games.  Usually PCs are responding to threats, going and stopping bad things.  You can't really do that if you're way over there.  So I think their value on the team is being over-estimated.  For villains I'm not as worried about point balance.  The GM has as many points as he needs.  Generally the GM shouldn't be putting the heroes up against a villain that has powers the team can't counter in some way.

[Tech]

I'm picking a few points here and there. I'm not going to comment on everything for the past 3 pages.

 

I agree overall with Hugh on this, particularly on how Mental Blast (formerly Ego Attack) is cheap for what you get. Since, 5th edition (and 6th) both like to break down powers on how they were built (ex. Transform, Nightvision, etc), using a Blast (formerly Energy Blast) with advantages to find out how to build a power demonstrates Mental Blast should be more expensive.

 

For curiousity sake, Hugh, you said, "The fact is that the IPE and LOS advantages of mental powers are never allowed to be used in most games, and they are not paid for, so it is not unreasonable that they are never allowed to be used." Although I would probably agree with you, how did you determine this to be fact?

 

Hugh said, "Part of the problem with mental powers is that they can be major sources of frustration for players. Their own powers fail, or their characters are removed from their control by opposing mental powers."  I agree but it goes beyond that. The same can apply to GMs. Hero Games brought this up in more than one supplement (forget having a telepath in a murder mystery. Please don't say the culprit can have Ego/Mental Defense, that's just a cheese technique for the GM most of the time but I digress).

 

Massey, you said, "I rarely see people play mentalists.  That's why I think they aren't overpowered." I'm not sure I follow this. Are you saying:

a) since you don't see many people playing mentalists and the lack of mentalists mean they aren't overpowered - or -

b ) are you saying that you don't see many people playing mentalists means they are innately, powerwise, not overpowered.

 

    Massey, I find the reason many people do not play mentalists is that many players like to be flashy ('feel my fireball, fiend!' or  'I just iced up your escape van' or 'I use my cosmic blast to blow a hole in the steel wall', etc.)  Exceedingly often in both comics and movies, mental powers are shown not to have flashy effects. 

 

   Moreso than that, I find the whole mental powers set to be broken. Why pay 50 points for Mind Control when most likely people will break out very quickly (if not instantly) when I can pay 50 points and get a 10d6 Blast (Energy Blast) or increase my Stun, Dex, Recovery, etc alot? The rules protect from making (yes, I'm picking on Mind Control) too effective but in doing so, make it very weak. Why pay points for a power that might make your 50 points spent ineffective on an attack when your 5d6 NND or 10d6 Blast will very likely be more effective. GMs have no problem with villains because they can make the opponents as effective as necessary. Players want to be able to shine with their characters.

[massey]

 

Massey, you said, "I rarely see people play mentalists.  That's why I think they aren't overpowered." I'm not sure I follow this. Are you saying:

a) since you don't see many people playing mentalists and the lack of mentalists mean they aren't overpowered - or -

b ) are you saying that you don't see many people playing mentalists means they are innately, powerwise, not overpowered.

 

    Massey, I find the reason many people do not play mentalists is that many players like to be flashy ('feel my fireball, fiend!' or  'I just iced up your escape van' or 'I use my cosmic blast to blow a hole in the steel wall', etc.)  Exceedingly often in both comics and movies, mental powers are shown not to have flashy effects. 

 

   Moreso than that, I find the whole mental powers set to be broken. Why pay 50 points for Mind Control when most likely people will break out very quickly (if not instantly) when I can pay 50 points and get a 10d6 Blast (Energy Blast) or increase my Stun, Dex, Recovery, etc alot? The rules protect from making (yes, I'm picking on Mind Control) too effective but in doing so, make it very weak. Why pay points for a power that might make your 50 points spent ineffective on an attack when your 5d6 NND or 10d6 Blast will very likely be more effective. GMs have no problem with villains because they can make the opponents as effective as necessary. Players want to be able to shine with their characters.

 

What did I mean?  Something similar to what you said in your last paragraph.

 

The ultimate test of whether a power is effective or not, is how often people select it.  If you give someone a choice between Energy Blast and Ego Attack/Mental Blast, players tend to favor Energy Blast.  Why is that?  If the mental attack is "overpowered" or "undercosted", then why aren't powergamey point-mongering players flocking to it?

 

The answer is that it isn't as powerful, or as useful, as you might think.

 

--

 

Another factor, that I haven't addressed, is defense.  The defense for mental powers is the same real cost as the defense for other powers.  However the attack costs twice as much.  Therefore, the defense for mental powers, on a per die basis, is only half the price of more traditional PD and ED.

 

A character with 5 ED is just asking to get splattered all over the street.  A 12D6 blast will normally do 7 Body and 37 Stun past their defenses.  That person is probably flying backwards, stunned, and they aren't far from bleeding to death.

A character with 5 Mental Defense, is actually pretty well off.  The defense costs the same number of points, but the effectiveness of the defense is much higher.  A 6D6 Ego Attack will do 21 Stun, but only 16 past defenses.  That's likely not enough to exceed the character's Con score, and won't knock them out unless they sold off their Stun.

 

10 points of ED?  Your character concept must be "I break like cheap glass when I get hit".

10 points of Mental Defense?  "I have iron will and you're wasting your time shooting at me with that puny mind attack."

 

The defenses for your "this should be a lot more expensive because it's oh so good" mental blast are very inexpensive.

[Tech]

What did I mean?  Something similar to what you said in your last paragraph.

 

The ultimate test of whether a power is effective or not, is how often people select it.  If you give someone a choice between Energy Blast and Ego Attack/Mental Blast, players tend to favor Energy Blast.  Why is that?  If the mental attack is "overpowered" or "undercosted", then why aren't powergamey point-mongering players flocking to it?

 

The answer is that it isn't as powerful, or as useful, as you might think.

 

--

 

Another factor, that I haven't addressed, is defense.  The defense for mental powers is the same real cost as the defense for other powers.  However the attack costs twice as much.  Therefore, the defense for mental powers, on a per die basis, is only half the price of more traditional PD and ED.

 

A character with 5 ED is just asking to get splattered all over the street.  A 12D6 blast will normally do 7 Body and 37 Stun past their defenses.  That person is probably flying backwards, stunned, and they aren't far from bleeding to death.

A character with 5 Mental Defense, is actually pretty well off.  The defense costs the same number of points, but the effectiveness of the defense is much higher.  A 6D6 Ego Attack will do 21 Stun, but only 16 past defenses.  That's likely not enough to exceed the character's Con score, and won't knock them out unless they sold off their Stun.

 

10 points of ED?  Your character concept must be "I break like cheap glass when I get hit".

10 points of Mental Defense?  "I have iron will and you're wasting your time shooting at me with that puny mind attack."

 

The defenses for your "this should be a lot more expensive because it's oh so good" mental blast are very inexpensive.

 

You said nothing of Hero Games being the one in 5th & 6th edition to show how a power is built. That was the basis of what I said about the cost.

 

We disagree on why people don't take mental powers often. I maintain that the flashier powers are more sought after, if only to break out of entangles or knock villains back or create holes in objects/walls/etc. Knocking back a villain and having them take 8d6 more from hitting something is very nice.

 

Another point to bring up is the vast majority of both heroes and villains do not have an equal or high DMCV versus a mentalist's (almost always) much higher combat value (OMCV).  Compare this to the more likely OCV 8-10 vs DCV 8-10 in a non-mental power. Mental Powers are the only set of powers that breaks away from OCV. Adjustment powers use OCV (Drain, Transform, etc). NND and Attack-vs-limited-defense (whatever it's called nowadays) use OCV.  This disparity in combat value levels lends itself to hitting the target easier.

[massey]

You said nothing of Hero Games being the one in 5th & 6th edition to show how a power is built. That was the basis of what I said about the cost.

 

One of the worst things Hero Games did in 5th and 6th edition was to try and build everything out of the same set of mechanics.  That led to terrible ideas, like making Regeneration out of a bastardized version of their new Healing power.  Or taking away Instant Change and having you duplicate it with Transform, self only.  Nevermind that you normally can't use Transform on yourself, or that Regeneration and Healing don't really work the same way.  There's a lot of "you put some limitations on it and then pretend that it operates the way it used to" involved in that.

 

Advantages are always going to be a bit imprecise.  They basically have to be because in a "build your power however you want it" system, the game designer isn't sure what you're going to put the Advantages on.  An 8D6 Energy Blast is probably a lot more useful than a 4D6 Area Effect Energy Blast.  But a 2D6 Area Effect Drain is probably comparable in value to a 4D6 Drain.

 

Some Advantages in the game are closer to their real value than others.  And specific combinations of Advantages are less useful than others.  The problem with Ego Attack/Mental Blast is that its Advantages -- using ECV instead of OCV, sort of invisibility (not to the guy hit -- he immediately knows who did it to him and where they are), and LOS range -- those can be pretty good, but they aren't worth more than doubling the cost of the power.  That's particularly true when the attack has the inherent disadvantage of not doing Body anymore.  If someone hides behind a car, you can't blow up the car with it.  If you get Entangled, you can't blast your way out.  You can't hurt a robot with it, etc.

 

It also has the problem, which neither you nor Hugh have taken into account, that a higher base cost per D6 is much worse than a lower base cost that is then increased to a higher amount, particularly if you want to add more Advantages later.  For instance:     (I'm going with guesstimated values of 6th ed Advantages, since I don't have that book, just using what I think I remember about it)

 

6D6 Mental Blast -- 60 points

6D6 Energy Blast, Based on MCV (+1/2?)  Invisible (+1), LOS (+1/2), AVAD (+1?) -- 120 points

 

Obviously the Mental Blast is more efficient.  But...

 

6D6 Mental Blast, 1/2 End (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) -- 90 points

6D6 Energy Blast, Based on MCV (+1/2?)  Invisible (+1), LOS (+1/2), AVAD (+1?), 1/2 End (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) -- 135 points

 

The cost difference is rapidly closing.  The more Advantages I add to my power, the closer the costs will align, because I'm working with a 5 point per D6 power instead of a 10 point per D6 power.

 

6D6 Mental Blast, Armor Piercing (+1/4), Autofire x5 (+1/2), 1/2 End for Autofire (+1/2), Extra cost for Autofire and special defenses (+1) -- 195 points

6D6 Energy Blast, Mental advantages (+3), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Autofire x5 (+1/2), 1/2 End for Autofire (+1/2), Extra cost for Autofire and special defenses (+1) -- 187 points

 

Now the cost is in favor of the Energy Blast, and it will remain so from this point out.

 

 

We disagree on why people don't take mental powers often. I maintain that the flashier powers are more sought after, if only to break out of entangles or knock villains back or create holes in objects/walls/etc. Knocking back a villain and having them take 8d6 more from hitting something is very nice.

 

Those aren't just "flashy" aspects of a power.  Breaking out of an Entangle, knocking a villain back, smashing an object, those are all game mechanic benefits of having the power.  You lose all those with Mental Blast.  Those are limitations that you aren't taking into account when you look at the cost either.

 

 

 

Another point to bring up is the vast majority of both heroes and villains do not have an equal or high DMCV versus a mentalist's (almost always) much higher combat value (OMCV).  Compare this to the more likely OCV 8-10 vs DCV 8-10 in a non-mental power. Mental Powers are the only set of powers that breaks away from OCV. Adjustment powers use OCV (Drain, Transform, etc). NND and Attack-vs-limited-defense (whatever it's called nowadays) use OCV.  This disparity in combat value levels lends itself to hitting the target easier.

 

That's not something that needs to be covered with an Advantage though.  An Advantage should represent an improvement in the baseline power that is reflected by a proportional increase in effectiveness.  As the Power gets more powerful, the Advantage goes up in cost because it keeps making the Power better.  Explosions hit a bigger area.  Megascale lets you move proportionately farther.  Armor Piercing makes the whole attack go against less defense.

 

Basing your attack on ECV (or OMCV or whatever it's called now) doesn't do that.  It gives you a finite improvement.  How much that improvement is depends entirely upon what combat values are in play.  Let's say the average OCV is 9.  The average DCV is 8.  And the average ECV/DMCV is 4.  That means, on average, you're attacking someone who has 4 fewer points of combat value.  4 skill levels with one attack is 8 points.  So that's basically worth 8 points.  So they can dodge, but it's not that much more to calculate for that.  Just more levels.

 

And the point is, it doesn't matter how many dice you're throwing.  if the DCV/ECV difference is 4 (like in the example above), it doesn't matter if you're using a 3D6 attack, or a 30D6 attack.  All you're getting for the value of your Advantage is hitting a number that is 4 easier.  This is something that should be handled with levels to hit, not with slapping an Advantage on a power.

 

Psychic attacks:  +5 OCV w/ "Mind Powers" Multipower -- 15 points      There.  Done.  No need for an Advantage at all.

[Tech]

Massey, perhaps this is best continued in a different thread. The original poster - me - meant for it to gain some ideas for a psychic character and suggestions for powers. This is long since gone on to be something different. If you're wanting others to chime in, a new thread with a nice topic header would lead a lot of others to join in. Just my 2 cents.

[massey]

Thread drift happens.  Sorry that we derailed your topic.  I think for the past several pages, this has been the Hugh and Massey discussion.  He and I usually agree on most game topics, so I found it interesting to see why we didn't here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Massey, perhaps this is best continued in a different thread. The original poster - me - meant for it to gain some ideas for a psychic character and suggestions for powers. This is long since gone on to be something different. If you're wanting others to chime in, a new thread with a nice topic header would lead a lot of others to join in. Just my 2 cents.

 

Looking back, much of p1 provided some ideas, and asked what kind of spicing up was intended.  No answer.

 

Someone mentioned Mental Paralysis, and we sidetracked into that for a page of so, which segued into the IPE/LOS discussion.

 

Drift happens, as massey notes.  I think the suggestions had pretty much trailed off.  Was there some clarification you wanted on some of the suggestions, or some you wanted to offer on what you’re looking for?

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, some of those are very different. "Social contract" and "metagamey behavior" aren't the same thing.

How much metagame we use is part of the social contract, but your point is valid.

 

Generally characters get built to avoid a one-shot kill. You want enough PD and ED so you aren't Stunned by the average attack (or even a little above average). This isn't "nerfing" the Brick because the martial artist tries to find a way to get a 25 PD. In a 12D6 game, I've found that most people are comfortable with between a 10 and 14 Ego. On a good roll, or a haymaker, a mentalist can still get +30 and may be able to keep them from breaking out for a phase or two.

I’m referring to adding another 20 PD on top of what I initially took to get to not being stunned by an average attack. So rather than 20 – 25 in a 12 DC game, I’ll bump it up to 40 – 45 and nerf the brick.

 

To use haymaker effectively, you just have to learn how to use the Speed chart. A brick with a 4 Spd probably isn't the best candidate to use it.

Different experiences. We often hold actions, especially if someone has demonstrated a habit of dropping their defenses for some extra offense. And that haymaker needs one extra segment. The target always has the option to abort, and trade his next action to eliminate the effects of yours.

 

Rapid attack is useful too. Whether it's better or worse than haymaker is going to depend on what your defenses are.

If your DCV is 11 or less, the Haymaker will result in the same , or a lower, DCV than halving it with Rapid Attack.

 

How common is it? Imagine in a comic, there's a sniper way down the street who starts shooting at the heroes. Is there someone on the team that can cover that distance very quickly? I think almost any flying character can probably cover a few city blocks in one comic book panel. There'll be a "whoosh" sound, a streak of color that matches the hero's costume, and then in the next panel the guy is hovering there in front of the villain. Game effect is megascale movement.

This depends on interpretation – Hero spending an extra phase with a lot of tactical movement is another interpretation. Hero Megascale = ½ DCV which is not something typically done in combat.

 

The ultimate test of whether a power is effective or not, is how often people select it.

It can be rendered ineffective by the GM just as easily as by its costing. A Penetrating KA, 1x Stun Mult is a very cheap attack to kill targets, but we decide (social contract) we don’t want bloody, dead PC’s all the time, so we don’t design attacks to kill instead of KO. We don’t want mentalist snipers, so we eliminate them via social contract. Plus, I think Blast and STR get selected a lot because they are the power the character I am trying to simulate has. Otherwise, everyone would have a VPP so they can have the most effective situational ability every time.

 

Another factor, that I haven't addressed, is defense. The defense for mental powers is the same real cost as the defense for other powers. However the attack costs twice as much. Therefore, the defense for mental powers, on a per die basis, is only half the price of more traditional PD and ED.

That’s only for the Ego Attack. The same is true of adjustment powers, which only got range by default in 6e (not LoS) and aren’t typically considered underpowered. You note elsewhere that 2d6 of AoE Drain may be a lot more effective than slapping AoE on a standard damage power.

 

For curiousity sake, Hugh, you said, "The fact is that the IPE and LOS advantages of mental powers are never allowed to be used in most games, and they are not paid for, so it is not unreasonable that they are never allowed to be used." Although I would probably agree with you, how did you determine this to be fact?

“Fact” is a strong term, but my main support is the various past threads on mentalist snipers. They’ve made some comments in the occasional book as well, I believe. It seems a pretty common issue, and the solution is “no, characters must be designed to be in the thick of combats, not sniping from a distance away”. Similar issues arise in other games on occasion.

 

Moreso than that, I find the whole mental powers set to be broken. Why pay 50 points for Mind Control when most likely people will break out very quickly (if not instantly) when I can pay 50 points and get a 10d6 Blast (Energy Blast) or increase my Stun, Dex, Recovery, etc alot?

These powers are very DC sensitive. They become huge at, say, 18 DC, unless people start incorporating higher EGO and mental defense into standard builds, as massey addresses upthread.

 

Spice up your mentalist, by the way – how about a small Ego Drain you will MPA with your other powers?

 

Another point to bring up is the vast majority of both heroes and villains do not have an equal or high DMCV versus a mentalist's (almost always) much higher combat value (OMCV). Compare this to the more likely OCV 8-10 vs DCV 8-10 in a non-mental power. Mental Powers are the only set of powers that breaks away from OCV. Adjustment powers use OCV (Drain, Transform, etc). NND and Attack-vs-limited-defense (whatever it's called nowadays) use OCV. This disparity in combat value levels lends itself to hitting the target easier.

This is also a drawback for the Mentalist character, who wants a high DmCV, but still needs a physical DCV as well, and likely has some abilities needing normal OCV, as well as the ones needing OmCV.

[薔薇語]

Sorry to contribute to the drift more but up thread there was a mention about how MD is effectively half price. I think that is a bad way to look at it. While I understand the desire to compare the relative effects for one point of defense version one dc of atrack and then look at the cost per dc; it lacks something. It fails to realize that there are two types of normal attacks. 10MD is great. On par with 20 ED. But that means nothing if faced with a normal punch. For the same overall effectiveness of MD, you need double the Normal D because there is both PD and ED. Thus the pricing per dc of damage available equals out.

 

Foreign Orchid

[Hugh Neilson]

To Foreign Ochhid's point, the exotic defenses are all priced on the basis that you need less of them, but they are useful less often, at least as I see it. Flash defense, once we break it down to every sense group, may even be overpriced.

 

This is reinforced by the cost of AVAD - the rarer the defense, the greater the cost, so "It acts against Resistant Smell Flash Defense" makes for a high advantage, and makes NND's with caveated defenses designed to be much rarer than the advantage suggests more expensive to compensate.

 

At this point, it needs to drift a lot to get back to where it started

[steriaca]

@Tech: I still like my Blast, ACV (OMCV vs. DCV). A nice sight Flash ACV (OMCV vs. ODCV), AVLD (Mental Defense) is good to 'convince' someone they lost their ability to see. A Drain OCV and DCV, ACV (OMCV vs. DMCV), AVLD (Mental Defense) can simulate planting mental blocks into your victim.

.

Of course, blindness can be simulated with Mental Illusions and Mind Control also. Basically, "Your Mileage May Vary"

[Tech]

@Tech: I still like my Blast, ACV (OMCV vs. DCV). A nice sight Flash ACV (OMCV vs. ODCV), AVLD (Mental Defense) is good to 'convince' someone they lost their ability to see. A Drain OCV and DCV, ACV (OMCV vs. DMCV), AVLD (Mental Defense) can simulate planting mental blocks into your victim.

.

Of course, blindness can be simulated with Mental Illusions and Mind Control also. Basically, "Your Mileage May Vary"

 

I like this as well. I also like Hughs "Spice up your mentalist, by the way – how about a small Ego Drain you will MPA with your other powers?"

 

Thanks! Now, go ahead and drift.