Air of Authority

[Hugh Neilson]

So have you and your GM discussed what you expect the power to achieve, and what he expects? Based on your description, you're expecting anyone nearby to quickly start following his orders, with the effect fading after they spend some time out of your immediate vicinity. So what do you anticipate you can use that effect for, in the game, and is your GM onside with that use, based on the mechanic chosen?

 

If you envision that, having spent the past hour chatting with a group of cops in the bar, they will now take you back to the stationhouse where they will release your arrested teammate from a cell and send you both on your merry way, and he envisions you being able to chat the bartender up for a free drink every few days, there will be a significant disconnect.

[Surrealone]

Yes, I have.  I always work from desired effect back to mechanics.

 

Much like this thread, I began with a description of how I perceived the nature and effects of the power -- and then worked toward discussion of the potential mechanics (as discussed here) that could be used to model it.  This, in turn, led to a discussion of pros and cons with the GM doing most of the talking and me answering his clarifying questions, when appropriate.

 

We're aligned in terms of the end goal...

[Wardsman]

But if I'm not mistaken, the Vampiric Discipline of Awe is something the vampire has to activate with blood points, and only works with people in fairly close proximity. That sort of power is very much a PRE sort of thing in my view. Or maybe Mind Control. I think in order to have a wider, more persistent effect, a vampire in the WoD needs to have a much higher level of Presence, the kind Methuselahs have, for instance.

 

I might even argue that having a very high PRE brings with it an intrinsic, passive benefit of this Air of Authority you are talking about.

How about Casual PRE like Casual Strength?

[Wardsman]

Which can be easily covered with a limitation "Only Affects vs My Character" (-1)

Doesn't limit the user. My GM  side says no.

[Nolgroth]

How about Casual PRE like Casual Strength?

 

What benefit does that bring? Casual Strength allows for the opportunity to exert Strength as a 0-Phase action and Presence Attack takes no time by default and can be used in conjunction with other actions.

[Nolgroth]

I might even argue that having a very high PRE brings with it an intrinsic, passive benefit of this Air of Authority you are talking about.

 

Reading the section on Presence Attacks lends credence to this very notion. 

[Hugh Neilson]

"No, that is not worth a limitation" or "No, it cannot work only for affects from your character"?

 

The former seems reasonable - if anything, this is to your advantage, IMO. The latter changes this from "My character impresses others and they take his orders" to "My character turns others into mindless zombies who take orders from anyone".

[Wardsman]

This does showcase a system weakness. The inability to model long term mental effects. It does temporary effects well, but the effects of a "Charismatic person" ie a Steve Jobs, or an Adolph Hitler aren't handled at all.

Mental transform that adds psych Disads like Amicable and such.

[Wardsman]

See Fascination or Inspire Talents in 5th edition FH.

 

If you only knew the power of the pentagonal side of the force!

[Wardsman]

Tasha:

No, I read it, but I don't think it fits as built/billed in 5ER.  Hugh has already correctly pointed out that PRE is, for whatever reason, generally not handled with the same impact as INT, DEX, etc. when it is present in large quantities.  Einstein, by the books, had what, 23 INT (cira 230 IQ)? -- and look at the world-changing impact he had.  Do GM's give 23 PRE the same potential for impact in most games?  No, they don't -- at least not in my experience.  Instead, high PRE tends to be reserved for short-term, immediate things that lack meaningful/lasting impact once outside of the moment.

 

That's ultimately the problem with a +PRE approach for Air of Authority: I'm trying to simulate and unnatural/otherworldy effect ... and PRE is rarely used to properly simulate a natural/worldly effect.

 

All:

I went over all of this with my GM, by the way; the input from each of you was extremely helpful, as it allowed for a lot of build paths and discussion points.  He didn't like the continuous/uncontrolled/0 END approaches for obvious reasons (and, ultimately, the same reasons I don't care for them).  He also didn't like the +PRE/Aid approaches for the reason noted, above.  This left the Drain approach as the preferred one, which he said made sense in the context of the authority figure's unnatural/otherworldly effect manifesting as weakness of willpower in those around him.  I'm undecided as to whether the Drain will be to EGO or both PRE/EGO, but at least now I've got some direction.

See Horror hero's treatment of presence. Especially in mimicking mind shattering horrors.

The difference is the emotion you are presenting.

[Nolgroth]

See Horror hero's treatment of presence. Especially in mimicking mind shattering horrors.

The difference is the emotion you are presenting.

 

Good stuff there, if you can find a copy.

 

EDIT: Found a copy on E-bay for $30 and one on Noble Knight for $60. Not that interested in it, but thought somebody might be.

[Wardsman]

Good stuff there, if you can find a copy.

 

EDIT: Found a copy on E-bay for $30 and one on Noble Knight for $60. Not that interested in it, but thought somebody might be.

I'm not sure if that is the 4th or 5th edition.

[Tasha]

I'm not sure if that is the 4th or 5th edition.

 

That's the 4e version. (Not that it HAS a newer edition)

[Nolgroth]

Like most things Hero, Horror Hero is more about theory than practice. There are some examples and some optional rules but it is more of a dissertation on the Horror genre than a self-contained product.

[Nolgroth]

Double post.

[Nolgroth]

Triple post!?!

[Wardsman]

That's the 4e version. (Not that it HAS a newer edition)

There must have been a newer version. It talked about the Kings of Edom. 

It might have been under either Dark Champions line or the Mystic word line as a supplement.

[Nolgroth]

Well there may have been a book that dealt with horror in later editions, but it wasn't Horror Hero. We, the forum posters, asked many times for such an item to be written. It never happened. Shame too, because even though I am not a big fan of Steve Long's campaign worlds, the man can write rules and genre treatments like nobody else. Some of the lessons I've learned from his other genre books has been invaluable to me as a GM. 

 

Maybe there was a Haymaker article or something. Maybe Mystic World or Urban Fantasy Hero had something in it? If there was a 5th Edition Horror Hero and I didn't know about it somehow, I would be mighty aggravated. Mighty. Aggravated.

[Wardsman]

Well there may have been a book that dealt with horror in later editions, but it wasn't Horror Hero. We, the forum posters, asked many times for such an item to be written. It never happened. Shame too, because even though I am not a big fan of Steve Long's campaign worlds, the man can write rules and genre treatments like nobody else. Some of the lessons I've learned from his other genre books has been invaluable to me as a GM. 

 

Maybe there was a Haymaker article or something. Maybe Mystic World or Urban Fantasy Hero had something in it? If there was a 5th Edition Horror Hero and I didn't know about it somehow, I would be mighty aggravated. Mighty. Aggravated.

There was something non-super in 5th that brought up the Kings of Edom and highlighted a few. 

Or were they in 4Th?

[Surrealone]

After some thinking and work, I'm providing my 5er and 6e builds for your (plural) personal use should you desire to make use of either.

 

Important notes:

• This power is built for use in a Powerful Heroic campaign where Power Defense is rare and 5 points of it is considered 'a lot' of it.  Thus, this power is intentionally designed for a small amount of Power Defense to have a significant (negative) impact on the efficacy of the power.  Penetrating helps make sure that it will almost always have -some- impact, albeit a substantially reduced impact when it comes to those with even small amounts of Power Defense. The basis for this is adherence to the concept that there's an unnatural force at work when it comes to the authority figure's impact on others ... allowing for small amounts of an appropriately unnatural defense to significantly mute/dull the impact/effect of the power.
• The GM has approved the use of the 6e Damage Over Time Advantage in his 5er game because it was demonstrated that Damage Over Time made its first appearance for use with 5e -- specifically in Digital Hero #47.  Upon close inspection it was noted that the version of Damage Over Time that appeared in Digital Hero #47 was rudimentary.  It was workable but it was also FAR TOO CHEAP for its power level/effect when constructed properly, hence running with the 6e version.  (As a data point for those interested, a simplistic 6 increments of damage in 6 Segments without lockout or the like costs +1 1/4 using the Digital Hero #47 rules ... but costs a whopping +4 using 6e.)
• Active cost deltas between the builds are due to disparities in Area of Effect costs between 5er and 6e.
• Real cost deltas between the builds are due to 5er Drain having no range by default (which matches concept) while 6e Drain is ranged -- allowing for (and requiring in order to adhere to concept) a No Range Limitation in the 6e build (which the 5er build naturally lacks).

 

 

5er build - Air of Authority [72 Active | 22 Real]
Drain EGO & PRE: 1d6 (Standard Effect: 3 pts)

• Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1)
• Area of Effect (6" Radius; +1)
• Expanded Effect (2 Characteristics simultaneously; +1/2)
• Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2)
• Penetrating (+1/2)
• Personal Immunity (+1/4)
• Damage Over Time (+2 1/2)
  • 12 damage increments
  • Damage occurs every Segment
  • Lock out (This power cannot be applied/layered multiple times on a given target simultaneously)
  • Easily negated by avoiding/preventing full exposure to authority of the authority figure
    • 'Easily negated' means all drained points immediately return to target
    • 'Avoiding/preventing full exposure' means missing even 1 tick of the Damage Over Time effect by departing authority figure's immediate presence
    • 'Immediate presence' is defined as the Area of Effect of this power
    • For clarification and the avoidance of doubt, after exposure to all 12 Damage Over Time segments, the normal fade rate for Drain applies
• Limited Power (Power loses about half of its effectiveness; -1)
  • Target's EGO & PRE reductions only relevant in dealings with authority figure
  • i.e. EGO & PRE remain at usual values with respect to all other PCs and NPCs
  • e.g. Authority figure cannot lower targets' EGO & PRE values to allow others to take advantage of the resulting states
  • e.g. Authority figure cannot soften up targets to allow a friendly mentalist to have an easier time with them
• Restrainable (-1/2)
  • e.g. One is not much of an authority figure when subdued via Grab, Entangle, etc.
• Stops Working If Authority Figure Is Stunned (-1/2)
  • e.g. One is not much of an authority figure when stunned or knocked out
• Gestures and/or Incantations (-1/4)
  • Taken only at -1/4 because it could be gestures or incantations; both are not required
  • Loosely defined as giving orders, communicating decisions, explaining plans, pointing at targets, hawking over subordinates, and generally doing what people in positions of authority do (as it pertains to communicating with underlings)

 

 

 

6e build - Air of Authority [67 Active | 18 Real]
Drain EGO & PRE: 1d6 (Standard Effect: 3 pts)

• Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1)
• Area of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2)
• Expanded Effect (2 Characteristics simultaneously; +1/2)
• Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2)
• Penetrating (+1/2)
• Personal Immunity (+1/4)
• Damage Over Time (+2 1/2)
  • 12 damage increments
  • Damage occurs every Segment
  • Lock out (This power cannot be applied/layered multiple times on a given target simultaneously)
  • Easily negated by avoiding/preventing full exposure to authority of the authority figure
    • 'Easily negated' means all drained points immediately return to target
    • 'Avoiding/preventing full exposure' means missing even 1 tick of the Damage Over Time effect by departing authority figure's immediate presence
    • 'Immediate presence' is defined as the Area of Effect of this power
    • For clarification and the avoidance of doubt, after exposure to all 12 Damage Over Time segments, the normal fade rate for Drain applies
• Limited Power (Power loses about half of its effectiveness; -1)
  • Target's EGO & PRE reductions only relevant in dealings with authority figure
  • i.e. EGO & PRE remain at usual values with respect to all other PCs and NPCs
  • e.g. Authority figure cannot lower targets' EGO & PRE values to allow others to take advantage of the resulting states
  • e.g. Authority figure cannot soften up targets to allow a friendly mentalist to have an easier time with them
• No Range (-1/2)
• Restrainable (-1/2)
  • e.g. One is not much of an authority figure when subdued via Grab, Entangle, etc.
• Stops Working If Authority Figure Is Stunned (-1/2)
  • e.g. One is not much of an authority figure when stunned or knocked out
• Gestures and/or Incantations (-1/4)
  • Taken only at -1/4 because it could be gestures or incantations; both are not required
  • Loosely defined as giving orders, communicating decisions, explaining plans, pointing at targets, hawking over subordinates, and generally doing what people in positions of authority do (as it pertains to communicating with underlings)

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, so it will reduce EGO by 18 points and PRE by 36 points over the course of a single turn (6 EGO and 12 PRE if they have a bit of power defense, which you indicate will be rare). It works against anyone within 12 meters. And, if I am not mistaken, you are playing 5e.

 

What’s the typical PRE or EGO of a campaign standard opponent? I’m thinking I would activate this when combat starts, and everyone on the team spends the next turn in turtle mode – blocks, dodges, etc. – just buy time for the full impact to be felt. Start it again on Ph 12 of the first full turn so that, by Ph 3 of the following turn, the 5 CP recovered at PS12 are gone again (unless that violates layering, in which case they will ‘only’ be down 15 EGO and 31 PRE, but that implies they have to fully recover and be un-awed before they can again be awed).

 

First action on Ph 3 or 4 of that second turn? PRE attack. In Powerful Heroic, most of the opponents are already well into negative PRE, so the few that are not already cowering, fleeing and/or seeking a change of undergarments should be reduced to snivelling heaps by the PRE attack. So are my teammates, of course, but a win is a win.

[Surrealone]

Hugh,

Here are the pertinent responses:

• It is, indeed, a 5ER game
• Typical Minion EGO and PRE are 10 and 13, respectively.
• Typical Lieutenant EGO and PRE are more like 14 and 18, respectively.
• Typical counterpart Villain EGO will vary from 10-17, depending on Villainn type/build, while counterpart Villian PRE will vary from 15-20.
• A PRE of 23 or higher (which the authority figure has) is exceptional
• The authority figure has not one but three counterpart Villains (possibly more) that match or exceed his own EGO and PRE

 

Your turtle tactics won't really fly as an 'I win' button for the following reasons:

• The authority figure is basically a moderate/average (perhaps even slightly less) normal when it comes to physical Characteristics -- i.e. 8 STR, 8 CON, 8 DEX, 8 BODY, 2 SPD, 2 PD/ED (each), low END, and low STUN.  He's basically an old man ... but remember the adage that 'age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill!'
• This means when the crap hits the fan, this guy finds cover; he doesn't stand around or turtle up.
• Letting an opponent within 6" of him is flat-out dangerous for him, so this guy avoids combat and tries to keep things away from him.
• The -1 Limitation "Target's EGO & PRE reductions only relevant in dealings with authority figure"  will have no effect on opponents with regard to their treatment of the authority figure's compatriots.
  • i.e. At 0 (or less) PRE which only applies to dealings with the authority figure, opponents would need to make a PRE roll to act offensively or remain in the face of anything remotely threatening FROM THE AUTHORITY FIGURE.  They would not have to do so relative to any of the authority figure's compatriots and could act normally with no PRE rolls relative to said compatriots.
  • Likewise, at 0 (or less) EGO which only applies to dealings with the authority figure, opponents would need to make an EGO roll to act each Phase WITH REGARD TO THE AUTHORITY FIGURE.  They would not have to do so relative to any of the authority figure's compatrios and could act normally with no EGO rolls relative to said compatriots.
  • Note that this is darn near ideal when representing an unnatural awe/majesty type of effect with regard to others' treatment of the authority figure -- because it doesn't do squat with regard to their treatment of anyone else -- while opening them up to other uses of power (like dominate ... aka mind control) by the authority figure.

 

As I think about it, that might be worth more than a -1 Limitation...

 

Also note that the 'Restrainable' limitation prevents the authority figure from deliberately surrendering, being set upon by guards and then restrained (as is typical when being taken into custody), and using Air of Authority to overwhelm the guards/captors.  Playing opossum via surrender is right out in this particular build.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh,

Here are the pertinent responses:

• It is, indeed, a 5ER game
• Typical Minion EGO and PRE are 10 and 13, respectively.
• Typical Lieutenant EGO and PRE are more like 14 and 18, respectively.
• Counterpart Villain EGO will vary from 10-17, depending on Villainn type/build, while counterpart Villian PRE will vary from 15-20.
• A PRE of 23 or higher (which the authority figure has) is exceptional
• The authority figure has not one but three counterpart Villains (possibly more) that match or exceed his own EGO and PRE

All supports my analysis.

 

Your turtle tactics won't really fly as an 'I win' button for the following reasons:

 

The authority figure is basically a moderate/average (perhaps even slightly less) normal when it comes to physical Characteristics -- i.e. 8 STR, 8 CON, 8 DEX, 8 BODY, 2 SPD, 2 PD/ED (each), low END, and low STUN.  He's basically an old man ... but remember the adage that 'age and treachery always overcomes youth and skill!

This means when the crap hits the fan, this guy finds cover; he doesn't stand around or turtle up.

Letting an opponent within 6" of him is flat-out dangerous for him, so this guy avoids combat and tries to keep things away from him.

"Find cover" is a form of turtling up. I assume he has combat-capable teammates who he is relying on protecting him. They can do so as part of a turtle strategy.

 

If he has to get 6" away to find cover, that's a full move assuming the old man did not lose any running speed. If not, he remains within his range.

 

Now, that is my interpretation in a typical RPG (Hero or otherwise) where combat is important, common and/or central to the game. If the game focuses a lot more on out of combat activity, the character's combat ability is markedly less important. But all he needs is 12 seconds within 24 meters, which is no small distance - a fair chunk of a football field or soccer pitch - to reduce anyone challenging him to a snivelling wreck. 12 seconds is a very short speech. I've done 2 minute presentations, and you can't say much in that period of time.

 

The -1 Limitation "Target's EGO & PRE reductions only relevant in dealings with authority figure"  will have no effect on opponents with regard to their treatment of the authority figure's compatriots.

The authority figure has a 4 1/2 d6 base PRE attack. When opponents are hesitating, wetting themselves and/or fleeing due to his PRE attack, they will not be very effective combatting his compatriots.

 

Likewise, at 0 (or less) EGO which only applies to dealings with the authority figure, opponents would need to make an EGO roll to act each Phase WITH REGARD TO THE AUTHORITY FIGURE.  They would not have to do so relative to any of the authority figure's compatrios and could act normally with no EGO rolls relative to said compatriots.

"Heed my words - if you oppose me and my compatriots, this will be the day you die. Throw down your arms!"

 

Failure to throw down your arms is now acting outside the commands of the authority figure, as is any hostile action against his compatriots.

 

Also note that the 'Restrainable' limitation prevents the authority figure from deliberately surrendering, being set upon by guards and then restrained as is typical when being taken into custody, and then using Air of Authority to overwhelm the guards/captors.  So playing opossum via surrender is right out...

12 seconds is not all that long when "I'm coming out with my hands up - please don't shoot an old man". Will they keep him physically restrained 24 hours a day for the rest of the campaign?

[Surrealone]

Hugh,

Let me remind you:

• A full turn is a BIG chunk of time in a lower SPD, Powerful Heroic game.
• 4.5d6 PRE instantly becomes 3.5d6 PRE when in combat (due to the -1d6 for being in combat).  Oratory will offset this ONLY if there are more than 3 opponents.
• Someone who avoids combat isn't going to be exhibiting powers, performing violent actions, or doing other things that would up his PRE attack dice.
• Someone who avoids combat also IS going to avoid making himself a liability for his compatriots, instead.
• The character isn't prone to PRE attacks in combat for the aforementioned reasons.  Even if he was, no one's going to be wetting themselves with an average PRE attack effect of 12 (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 3.5d6=12.25avg PRE attack effect roll) or 16 when Oratory is in play (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 4.5d6=15.75).
  • In most cases this will be good enough for only Minion PRE to be matched (i.e. PRE +0) by the PRE attack's effect roll.
  • Lieutenant & Counterpart Villian PRE may or may not be matched (i.e. PRE +0) by the PRE attack's effect roll.
  • Add in Air of Authority with full effect and these shift such that:
    • a Minion whose PRE is reduced to 0 now has an effect of PRE+10 against him (instead of PRE+0)
    • a Lieutenant and/or Counterpart Villain whose PRE was not matched by the effect roll of the PRE attack was now matched (as PRE+0)
    • a Lieutenant and/or Counterpart Villain whose PRE -was- matched by the effect roll of the PRE attack now has an effect of PRE+10 against him (instead of PRE+0)

 

You seem to imply that this is somehow drastic when, in fact, the character is prone to death in the game for which he's built --  if he pursues your suggested courses of action.  Player characters die in this game  -- which is by design since tabletop gaming is a bit too much like mental masturbation if there's no risk of death, at all.  (Throw the super hero genre out the window and get into a Dark Champions mindset where PCs die, and you'll find that cautious gameplay is the rule, not the exception, among PCs who want to live.)  An old, noble-born man barking orders will likely get him killed in combat in this world unless he can soak the attention he'll receive (which this character can't).  Sure, opponents might hesitate and allow him to act first in the phase (PRE + 0 effect), but he's SPD 2 and his action will be to get the hell out of the way, hopefully before they go, "Gosh, that Archduke sure was impressive, but let's shoot/kill him because I'm sure someone, somewhere, wants his head."

 

 

I get the sense that you just don't like Drain in this case -- or you feel this would be unbalancing in YOUR game.  I also think you're hell-bent on trying to min-max it based on how you and/or your players play within YOUR game world ... a game world which probably lacks compensating controls that this character's game world has.  That's fine; don't allow it in your game; my GM basically prescribed it among the options discussed, here ... and it's within active point caps.

 

Note:

You're also applying this solely to combat.  Sure, it'll have some uses there, but this is, by and large, a non-combat power for my intents/purposes.  Outside of combat is where Air of Authority really shines when combined with Interaction skills ... perfect for a support character/plot mover like the one that will have this power.

 

[InfiniteKarma]

I think you've got a pretty solid build for the power, but I think the Limitations are pretty aggressively discounting the power. The active build doesn't seem unfair, it should just cost more real points, IMO.

 

The -1/2 "Stops when stunned" discount seems like free points with the other limitations on the power; you already have restrainable, and it's already going end with the "Easily negated" condition in the Damage over time adder. I don't think that is really a separate limitation at all.

 

The -1 Limitation is also overestimated in its handicap, IMO. This character is obviously Presence-focused, so he's going to be able to buff himself 100% of the time, and that's its primary use. Having other party members gang up on weakened opponents (if there are other Presence- or Ego-focused characters at all) is really the only thing you'd be missing out on, and that's going to be less common. -1/2 seems more appropriate.