Air of Authority

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh,

Let me remind you:

 

A full turn is a BIG chunk of time in a lower SPD, Powerful Heroic game.

A turn is not very long out of combat. The worst case is an ambush, where you start with the opponents having full PRE and EGO and are already in combat.

 

In combat, a Turn is shorter the lower the SPD. WIth average SPD of 3, the turn has half as many actions as it would with average SPD of 6. It's not like he has a lot of other things to do once he's in whatever cover he can find, based on your indication he's useless in combat anyway.

 

4.5d6 PRE instantly becomes 3.5d6 PRE when in combat (due to the -1d6 for being in combat).  Oratory will offset this ONLY if there are more than 3 opponents.

Someone who avoids combat isn't going to be exhibiting powers, performing violent actions, or doing other things that would up his PRE attack dice.

Someone who avoids combat also IS going to avoid making himself a liability for his compatriots, instead.

You intend to play a noncombatant social skill/PRE monster who cannot make soliloquys and lacks appropriate interaction skills?

 

But let's assume we are working with 3 1/2d6, so a 12 point roll. With 3 points drained every segment, a 4 SPD character loses 9 PRE between each action. A 3 SPD is losing 12. I used a turn as a 36 point loss of PRE and an 18 point loss of EGO. By the time your 2 SPD character acts again, on Phase 6, the opponents are all down 18 PRE.

 

The character isn't prone to PRE attacks in combat for the aforementioned reasons.  Even if he was, no one's going to be wetting themselves with an average PRE attack effect of 12 (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 3.5d6=12.25avg PRE attack effect roll) or 16 when Oratory is in play (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 4.5d6=15.75).

You are playing 5e, so stats can go negative. That was removed, to that minimum 0, in 6e. A 1 point PRE attack exceeds a -15 PRE by 16 points. A turn of exposure means a 23 has become -13, so +25 on an average 3.5d6 roll. A character who started with 18 or less has a +30 effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh,

Let me remind you:

 

A full turn is a BIG chunk of time in a lower SPD, Powerful Heroic game.

A turn is not very long out of combat. The worst case is an ambush, where you start with the opponents having full PRE and EGO and are already in combat, which is what we`re focusing on now.

 

In combat, a Turn is shorter the lower the SPD. WIth average SPD of 3, the turn has half as many actions as it would with average SPD of 6. It's not like he has a lot of other things to do once he's in whatever cover he can find, based on your indication he's useless in combat anyway.

 

4.5d6 PRE instantly becomes 3.5d6 PRE when in combat (due to the -1d6 for being in combat). Oratory will offset this ONLY if there are more than 3 opponents.

 

Someone who avoids combat isn't going to be exhibiting powers, performing violent actions, or doing other things that would up his PRE attack dice.

You intend to play a noncombatant social skill/PRE monster who cannot make soliloquys and lacks appropriate interaction skills?

 

But let's assume we are working with 3 1/2d6, so a 12 point roll. With 3 points drained every segment, a 4 SPD character loses 9 PRE between each action. A 3 SPD is losing 12. I used a turn as a 36 point loss of PRE and an 18 point loss of EGO. By the time your 2 SPD character acts again, on Phase 6, the opponents are all down 18 PRE.

 

Someone who avoids combat also IS going to avoid making himself a liability for his compatriots, instead.

Someone useless in combat will be a liability in combat, unless he can arrange to be elsewhere whenever combat arises.

 

The character isn't prone to PRE attacks in combat for the aforementioned reasons. Even if he was, no one's going to be wetting themselves with an average PRE attack effect of 12 (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 3.5d6=12.25avg PRE attack effect roll) or 16 when Oratory is in play (3.5avg roll on 1d6 x 4.5d6=15.75).

Since you are playing 5e, stats can go negative. That was removed, to that minimum 0, in 6e.

 

A 1 point PRE attack exceeds a -15 PRE by 16 points. A turn of exposure means a 23 has become -13, so +25 on an average 3.5d6 roll. A character who started with 18 or less has a +30 effect.

 

You seem to imply that this is somehow drastic when, in fact, the character is prone to death in the game for which he's built -- if he pursues your suggested courses of action. Player characters die in this game -- which is by design since tabletop gaming is a bit too much like mental masturbation if there's no risk of death, at all. (Throw the super hero genre out the window and get into a Dark Champions mindset where PCs die, and you'll find that cautious gameplay is the rule, not the exception, among PCs who want to live.)

 

An old, noble-born man barking orders will likely get him killed in combat in this world unless he can soak the attention he'll receive (which this character can't). Sure, opponents might hesitate and allow him to act first in the phase (PRE + 0 effect), but he's SPD 2 and his action will be to get the hell out of the way, hopefully before they go, "Gosh, that Archduke sure was impressive, but let's shoot/kill him because I'm sure someone, somewhere, wants his head."

Given anyone who approaches him for the briefest period is swayed to his cause, I`m not clear why his enemies don`t just hire a sniper to put a bullet in his head. If they can get close enough for minions to ambush him with no pre-combat interaction, it seems a sniper should easily do the job anyway.

 

At -8 PRE (23 – 36 for one turn of effect, +5 recovered in PS 12), the 3.5d6 PRE attack is guaranteed a +10 effect and will be +20 on average. +20 = lose a phase and be half DCV, a condition I assume your teammates can take advantage of, especially with a +30 effect on anyone who started with 13 or less PRE cowing them entirely. And at -8 PRE, they need to roll 7- to initiate a hostile action against your character (the only one, I expect, who is not shooting back).

 

I get the sense that you just don't like Drain in this case -- or you feel this would be unbalancing in YOUR game. I also think you're hell-bent on trying to min-max it based on how you and/or your players play within YOUR game world ... a game world which probably lacks compensating controls that this character's game world has. That's fine; don't allow it in your game; my GM basically prescribed it among the options discussed, here ... and it's within active point caps.

Margarita Man falls within those AP caps, but no sane GM would allow him. I don`t like Drain because it`s a poor simulation of what should enhance your own PRE based abilities. But it`s the rapid onset DoT that causes the combat issue.

 

Note:

You're also applying this solely to combat. Sure, it'll have some uses there, but this is, by and large, a non-combat power for my intents/purposes. Outside of combat is where Air of Authority really shines when combined with Interaction skills ... perfect for a support character/plot mover like the one that will have this power.

Since interaction skills rarely have opposed rolls, I`m not clear how your conclude this will be the case. But I`m examining combat specifically because your ability is not intended to be useful in combat. If it took longer (eg. an activiation time; a slower DoT), it would be much less combat-capable. Perhaps you should need to stand, open and visible with reduced DCV, to awe your targets.

 

Out of combat, well, if I`m out of your radius for a minute or so, the whole thing wears off since I get 5 CP back every turn. Slower onset and slower recovery seems more consistent with the ability as described.

[massey]

Since the proposed power is Fully Invisible, people affected by it won't even realize what has happened. They can't trace it back to the character. They aren't impressed by him until he makes a Pre attack. Once he does, they suddenly turn into giant cowards.

 

But really, they've got no reason to attack him. He just looks like an old man to them. An old man without a weapon, who is hiding and saying "don't hurt me!" He's probably going to be the last person they attack.

[Surrealone]

The -1/2 "Stops when stunned" discount seems like free points with the other limitations on the power; you already have restrainable, and it's already going end with the "Easily negated" condition in the Damage over time adder. I don't think that is really a separate limitation at all.

 

The -1 Limitation is also overestimated in its handicap, IMO. This character is obviously Presence-focused, so he's going to be able to buff himself 100% of the time, and that's its primary use. Having other party members gang up on weakened opponents (if there are other Presence- or Ego-focused characters at all) is really the only thing you'd be missing out on, and that's going to be less common. -1/2 seems more appropriate.

What I was driving for here is all drained points returning instantly if the authority figure is stunned or knocked out -- i.e. normal fade rate doesn't apply.  Given the -1 Limitation that the effects only apply to the authority figure, I can see your point in the case of a KO (since the returned points won't matter to an authority figure that is unconscious), but in the case of stunning against a SPD2 character (who won't be able to re-establish the power without blowing one of his two actions in a turn), I think this limitation is still significant and worth something.

 

I still think the -1 is actually too little given that this power can't be used in to coordinate PRE and EGO-based effects generated by teammates/compatriots AND the effects of the reduced EGO/PRE don't pertain to teammates/compatriots.  i.e. Inaction due to 0 PRE on the part of a target only applies to actions said target might take pertaining the authority figure; the target suffers no such inaction with regard to teammates/compatriots.  Effectively this sort of thing means that affected targets will not be prone to attacking the authority figure, but are perfectly able to attack his teammates/compatriots (which the target wouldn't be able to do without this limitation in play).  This factored just as much into the -1 assignment just as the inability to weaken opponents in order to allow teammates/compatriots to take advantage of the weakened state.

 

 

 

A turn is not very long out of combat. The worst case is an ambush, where you start with the opponents having full PRE and EGO and are already in combat, which is what we`re focusing on now.

I can't speak for your game or other games, but we only track segments, turns, etc. in combat; such granularity just isn't needed outside of combat in most cases.

 

 

It's not like he has a lot of other things to do once he's in whatever cover he can find, based on your indication he's useless in combat anyway.

 

You intend to play a noncombatant social skill/PRE monster who cannot make soliloquys and lacks appropriate interaction skills?

Intend to play?  The character is nearly 2 years old -- but something recently happened to him that awakened certain latent abilities.  Thus, new powers for an existing character.

 

​As to interaction skills and combat: the character has appropriate interaction skills, but combat is not generally the place to ply them.  You are, indeed, correct, that the character is built as a non-combatant (read: glass-jaw) social/interaction monster -- because that's appropriate to his concept.  That said, he's not useless in combat, as he is a support character capable of buffing compatriots, adding to their defenses, or influencing a fight in other ways (change environment, darkness, and other AoE type abilities that can sway things) ... despite being slow and not being able to hit the broad side of a barn, take hits, or soak them.  I prefer a playstyle that entails letting the other characters have the combat limelight while I help them, heal them, or sway the fight ... and the character's built to support that playstyle.

 

As a reminder, not all PRE is the same.  ​Underscoring what I mean, this character's PRE doesn't come from being a Hulk-like combat monster, it comes from being upper nobility and all the deferential and punitive things typically associated with the aristocracy.  Thus, the character should not try to behave in "Hulk, Smash!" PRE-attack fashion in a fight per your inklings.  Instead, he should behave like a noble would in a fight: kings, dukes, etc. don't tend stand out on a field of battle rendering look-at-me-I'm-powerful soliloquys .... at least not if they want to live.  (Instead, they do such things before and after the battle... and provide direction/support during it.  I think you get the idea.)

 

 

Since you are playing 5e, stats can go negative. That was removed, to that minimum 0, in 6e.

I had completely forgotten about this and appreciate you raising it, as it does, indeed, rework the math a bit ... by moving things up the PRE effect (+0/+10/+20/+20) 'chart' one level, on average.

 

 

Given anyone who approaches him for the briefest period is swayed to his cause, I`m not clear why his enemies don`t just hire a sniper to put a bullet in his head. If they can get close enough for minions to ambush him with no pre-combat interaction, it seems a sniper should easily do the job anyway.

 

At -8 PRE (23 – 36 for one turn of effect, +5 recovered in PS 12), the 3.5d6 PRE attack is guaranteed a +10 effect and will be +20 on average. +20 = lose a phase and be half DCV, a condition I assume your teammates can take advantage of, especially with a +30 effect on anyone who started with 13 or less PRE cowing them entirely. And at -8 PRE, they need to roll 7- to initiate a hostile action against your character (the only one, I expect, who is not shooting back).

 

Margarita Man falls within those AP caps, but no sane GM would allow him. I don`t like Drain because it`s a poor simulation of what should enhance your own PRE based abilities.

Swayed to his cause?  No, that's Mind Control or a Mental Transform.  The proper description is that those in the immediate vicinity of the authority figure become unnaturally receptive to the authority figure's suggestions while in his immediate presence (with this power active) ... while substantially reducing their willingness to act against him (a very good blend of Awe and Majesty from WhiteWolf's games).

 

This subtle but important distinction is key to why my GM preferred/prescribed a Drain approach; he felt it more correctly models Awe/Majesty from WhiteWolf than simply adding PRE & EGO or Aid to PRE & EGO.  That's also probably where you're tripped up: You think I'm trying to enhance my PRE-based abilities when I'm not.  Instead, I'm trying to make others unnaturally receptive to those PRE-based abilities.  Certainly those are two sides of the same coin, but they are, in fact, different objectives that suggest use of the appropriate power when modeling -- rather than hanging your hat on 'special effect' and handwaving.  In this case, Drain PRE & EGO does, indeed, seem to be most appropriate at increasing receptiveness to and reducing willingness to act against the character.

 

As to the sniper -- there aren't exactly lots of wide open spaces on space stations, interstellar ships, etc.  But planetside, a sniper is absolutely a liability for the character ... and most of the team.

 

 

But it`s the rapid onset DoT that causes the combat issue.

 

Since interaction skills rarely have opposed rolls, I`m not clear how your conclude this will be the case. But I`m examining combat specifically because your ability is not intended to be useful in combat. If it took longer (eg. an activiation time; a slower DoT), it would be much less combat-capable. Perhaps you should need to stand, open and visible with reduced DCV, to awe your targets.

 

Out of combat, well, if I`m out of your radius for a minute or so, the whole thing wears off since I get 5 CP back every turn. Slower onset and slower recovery seems more consistent with the ability as described.

Interaction skills are regularly opposed in our game -- ESPECIALLY non-combat use of interaction skills such as Acting, Conversation, and Persuasion.   If you want to get back to the ability as described, it was envisioned as a continuous, uncontrolled, 0 END, 'always on' kind of thing, but the GM wanted it to require an action ... specifically in case it came up in combat.  Slowing the onset basically renders it useless in combat ... because of its low diceage and the localized nature of it (i.e. all points fading if targets leave AoE).  Increasing the diceage and requiring repeated actions for re-use (i.e. eliminating the DoT) basically makes it an active thing instead of a passive thing ... when it was originally envisioned as passive.  The DoT was the best balance of both -- where 1 of 2 actions (for a 2 SPD character) in a turn is needed to use the power ... and its use is actually worthwhile.

 

We ARE talking 72 active points, here... in a 225 point game.  It -ought- to do something worthwhile.

[eepjr24]

My only quibble is that I don't think Gestures or Incantations are appropriate here. Speech is not incantations. It must be distinct and seperate from communication and perceivable as such at a distance.

 

To the other comments above: Do you see something legally wrong with the construct or just not like it? He is paying enough points that he could have just bought 8d6 Mind Control, 16m AOE with limitations. It does not seem more powerful than that to me. With a well worded command he would get EGO+20 against mooks (forcing them to flee or do things that would halve their DCV).

 

- E

[Surrealone]

My only quibble is that I don't think Gestures or Incantations are appropriate here. Speech is not incantations. It must be distinct and seperate from communication and perceivable as such at a distance.

 

To the other comments above: Do you see something legally wrong with the construct or just not like it? He is paying enough points that he could have just bought 8d6 Mind Control, 16m AOE with limitations. It does not seem more powerful than that to me. With a well worded command he would get EGO+20 against mooks (forcing them to flee or do things that would halve their DCV).

You raise a good point.  I was trying to capture the idea that the authority figure must be doing something that would be recognizable by others as authority/leadership -- for the unnatural aspect/power to work.  Suggestions on how to handle this?  (Some kind of Limited Power limitation?)

[eepjr24]

You raise a good point.  I was trying to capture the idea that the authority figure must be doing something that would be recognizable by others as authority/leadership -- for the unnatural aspect/power to work.  Suggestions on how to handle this?  (Some kind of Limited Power limitation?)

I would just give it a "Actions must be in character for a leader" at -0. The problem with more than that is that you have bought it with IPE, correct? Which is counter to the idea of recognizable cues.

 

- E

[dsatow]

My $0.02,

 

I know this is contrary to the thread as written and I have only scanned the thread, but personally I think Air of Authority is simple casual Presence (1/2 pre).

 

For the most part, I doubt any characteristic ever turns off.  For instance, you might not use your full strength, but you still have it.  Similarly, you might not use your full intellectual capacity but you aren't brain dead (though some might argue that point given this presidential election).  So, your appearance and action should continue to impress people even if they aren't fully using their presence.  This would be the Air of Authority or other similar names like Star Power, Presidential Bearing, etc.

 

Now, I am not knocking using mind control, transform, etc.  If this aura MAKES a person do things they would not do, then I'd be 100% behind a power build.  But if this power just influences a person, I'd leave it as casual presence.

 

ex:   A person with a power form of Air of Authority enters a courtroom and says, "That man is guilty!"  People affected would say "He's guilty!" and screw the trial.

ex2: A person with a casual PRE form of Air of Authority enters a courtroom and says, "That man is guilty!" The judge would tell him to take his seat and let the trial continue.  The court will probably still find him guilty but the defendant's lawyer will probably ask for a mistrial etc.

[eepjr24]

My $0.02,

 

I know this is contrary to the thread as written and I have only scanned the thread, but personally I think Air of Authority is simple casual Presence (1/2 pre).

Your lack of reading the thread shows. It doesn't really fit the ability he is after at all, as discussed in several places.

 

- E

[Surrealone]

I would just give it a "Actions must be in character for a leader" at -0. The problem with more than that is that you have bought it with IPE, correct? Which is counter to the idea of recognizable cues.

 

- E

That's reasonable.  The other avenue of approach is to just make it that much more unnatural -- meaning do away with the limitation, entirely.  I'll discuss it with the GM at our next get-together, as I don't have a strong feeling about it one way or the other.  (FWIW: The Real Cost isn't a driver, at all, here, as this is going into an appropriate framework -- though I'd MUCH rather have it as a stand-alone power!)

[Hugh Neilson]

What I was driving for here is all drained points returning instantly if the authority figure is stunned or knocked out -- i.e. normal fade rate doesn't apply.  Given the -1 Limitation that the effects only apply to the authority figure, I can see your point in the case of a KO (since the returned points won't matter to an authority figure that is unconscious), but in the case of stunning against a SPD2 character (who won't be able to re-establish the power without blowing one of his two actions in a turn), I think this limitation is still significant and worth something.

 

I still think the -1 is actually too little given that this power can't be used in to coordinate PRE and EGO-based effects generated by teammates/compatriots AND the effects of the reduced EGO/PRE don't pertain to teammates/compatriots.  i.e. Inaction due to 0 PRE on the part of a target only applies to actions said target might take pertaining the authority figure; the target suffers no such inaction with regard to teammates/compatriots.  Effectively this sort of thing means that affected targets will not be prone to attacking the authority figure, but are perfectly able to attack his teammates/compatriots (which the target wouldn't be able to do without this limitation in play).  This factored just as much into the -1 assignment just as the inability to weaken opponents in order to allow teammates/compatriots to take advantage of the weakened state.

While the inability of teammates to take advantage of the weakened state of the targets is disadvantageous, the inability of your adversaries to take advantage of their weakened state works to your advantage. For example, having persuaded members of an opposing faction to your cause, out of combat and facilitated by your Air of Authority, those new allies can attack the supporters of the existing regime without the impact of the negative PRE imposed on them for you alone. Your allies can't influence them more readily, but neither can your enemies.

 

I can't speak for your game or other games, but we only track segments, turns, etc. in combat; such granularity just isn't needed outside of combat in most cases.

As your ability works out of combat, and indeed is designed to, it needs only 12 seconds of time out of combat to reach its full effect. That's not a long time, so it's pretty easily implemented in interactions, even interactions likely to lead to a combat. While enemy guards are holding their rifles at you, and waiting for you to throw down your arms and surrender, this fully undetectable power can be taking its full effect.

Intend to play?  The character is nearly 2 years old -- but something recently happened to him that awakened certain latent abilities.  Thus, new powers for an existing character.

The comment that he would reasonably be capable of soliloquys and skill use in combat stands.

 

As a reminder, not all PRE is the same.  ​Underscoring what I mean, this character's PRE doesn't come from being a Hulk-like combat monster, it comes from being upper nobility and all the deferential and punitive things typically associated with the aristocracy.  Thus, the character should not try to behave in "Hulk, Smash!" PRE-attack fashion in a fight per your inklings.  Instead, he should behave like a noble would in a fight: kings, dukes, etc. don't tend stand out on a field of battle rendering look-at-me-I'm-powerful soliloquys .... at least not if they want to live.  (Instead, they do such things before and after the battle... and provide direction/support during it.  I think you get the idea.)

I think you are viewing this in very narrow-minded fashion. A PRE attack can be a "HULK SMASH" or a call to "Think for yourselves - you fight for the wrong side. Don't force my allies to take your lives - instead, turn on your vile masters and join our cause".

 

Swayed to his cause?  No, that's Mind Control or a Mental Transform.  The proper description is that those in the immediate vicinity of the authority figure become unnaturally receptive to the authority figure's suggestions while in his immediate presence (with this power active) ... while substantially reducing their willingness to act against him (a very good blend of Awe and Majesty from WhiteWolf's games).

It's also a PRE attack which causes the targets to "think long and hard about what has been said".

 

This subtle but important distinction is key to why my GM preferred/prescribed a Drain approach; he felt it more correctly models Awe/Majesty from WhiteWolf than simply adding PRE & EGO or Aid to PRE & EGO.  That's also probably where you're tripped up: You think I'm trying to enhance my PRE-based abilities when I'm not.  Instead, I'm trying to make others unnaturally receptive to those PRE-based abilities.  Certainly those are two sides of the same coin, but they are, in fact, different objectives that suggest use of the appropriate power when modeling -- rather than hanging your hat on 'special effect' and handwaving.  In this case, Drain PRE & EGO does, indeed, seem to be most appropriate at increasing receptiveness to and reducing willingness to act against the character.

You are confusing mechanics with special effects. There is no difference between resistant defenses based on rapidly healing wounds and bouncing bullets. There is similarly no real mechanical difference between enhancing my abilities and making others more susceptible to my abilities. Both make my abilities more effective on the target, without enabling anyone else to similarly use theor own abilities more effectively. "Reason from effect" is the Hero Golden Rule.

 

As to the sniper -- there aren't exactly lots of wide open spaces on space stations, interstellar ships, etc.  But planetside, a sniper is absolutely a liability for the character ... and most of the team.

There are plenty of conduits and air ducts to slip through, short hallways to sneak by, etc. And it also keeps any conflict constrained, so you are likely in the 12 meter radius effect of your draining ability throughout its one turn effect.

 

If you want to get back to the ability as described, it was envisioned as a continuous, uncontrolled, 0 END, 'always on' kind of thing, but the GM wanted it to require an action ... specifically in case it came up in combat.  Slowing the onset basically renders it useless in combat ... because of its low diceage and the localized nature of it (i.e. all points fading if targets leave AoE).  Increasing the diceage and requiring repeated actions for re-use (i.e. eliminating the DoT) basically makes it an active thing instead of a passive thing ... when it was originally envisioned as passive.  The DoT was the best balance of both -- where 1 of 2 actions (for a 2 SPD character) in a turn is needed to use the power ... and its use is actually worthwhile.

Emphasis added. An ability not intended to be useful in combat not being useful in combat seems perfectly reasonable. This ability is quite useful in combat, because of its rapid onset. Out of combat, even one per turn would take a couple of minutes - negligible time - to have its full impact. Do you, or do you not, expect it to be useful in combat.

 

We ARE talking 72 active points, here... in a 225 point game.  It -ought- to do something worthwhile.

 

We are also talking a lot of limitations when -2 in limitations typically means "power loses almost all of its utility".

[eepjr24]

We are also talking a lot of limitations when -2 in a single custom limitation typically means "power loses almost all of its utility".

There, fixed that for you. No where in the book that I have seen does it say that X amount of total limitations means the power has lost most of it's utility.  A quick look through the Grimoire shows me that you would be hard pressed to find abilities that have LESS than -2 1/2 in limitations. Some top out at over -8.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

 

My only quibble is that I don't think Gestures or Incantations are appropriate here. Speech is not incantations. It must be distinct and seperate from communication and perceivable as such at a distance.

Agreed - especially if it is imperceptible! Now, Concentration to show he doesn't seem all that authoritative when dodging, weaving, running for his life, etc.? That seems a reasonable limitation. When he is not standing calmly, he is not really impressing people as much.

 

To the other comments above: Do you see something legally wrong with the construct or just not like it? He is paying enough points that he could have just bought 8d6 Mind Control, 16m AOE with limitations. It does not seem more powerful than that to me. With a well worded command he would get EGO+20 against mooks (forcing them to flee or do things that would halve their DCV).

I think it is a potent in-combat ability, and is not being presented as having the potency of 8d6 AoE Mind Control, despite having the ability to be similarly, or even more, impactful in combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

There, fixed that for you. No where in the book that I have seen does it say that X amount of total limitations means the power has lost most of it's utility.  A quick look through the Grimoire shows me that you would be hard pressed to find abilities that have LESS than -2 1/2 in limitations. Some top out at over -8.

I stand by my statement. -2 in limitations, whether from one limitation or eight, saves the same points and should be similarly limiting to the power in question.

[eepjr24]

I stand by my statement. -2 in limitations, whether from one limitation or eight, saves the same points and should be similarly limiting to the power in question.

Stand all you want, the rules don't back you up.

[dsatow]

I stand by my statement. -2 in limitations, whether from one limitation or eight, saves the same points and should be similarly limiting to the power in question.

 

 

Stand all you want, the rules don't back you up.

 

I have to back up eepjr24 on this, IMHO if a killing attack with one 1 charge is a -2 limitation, is that equal in limitations to 4 charges, OAF on the killing attack?  Personally, I'd take the four charges.

[massey]

I have to back up eepjr24 on this, IMHO if a killing attack with one 1 charge is a -2 limitation, is that equal in limitations to 4 charges, OAF on the killing attack?  Personally, I'd take the four charges.

 

Depends on what the power does.  Sometimes one charge is all you need.  Whereas yours can be taken away with the focus, if I just have one charge, I know I've always got one use available.

 

--

 

The problem that I have with Surrealone's power build is that it seems overly complex, doesn't really do what he says he wants it to do, and has a lot of limitations of questionable value on it.

 

He's got a -1 limitation where the Pre and Ego decrease only applies versus his orders.  But since he's the guy who is going to be giving the orders, that's not much of a limitation.  It's also a bonus for him, because it basically means that his friends are completely unaffected.  He's not going to be making harmful Pre attacks against them.  He's using a limitation to provide them with immunity to his power.  It shouldn't work like that.

 

Think about it like this.  Take the basic power, without that limitation.  He uses the power, it affects 4 enemies and 3 friends within range.  They basically become total cowards.  Now another enemy, an ogre or something, who was not in range of the power, comes around the corner and does a Pre attack.  This guy's friends pee their pants and run away.  This is how the power works before you put the limitation on it.  Now he wants a -1 limitation for something that provides his buddies a defense against the negative aspects of his power?  No way.

 

The power doesn't do what he says he wants anyway, because it's going to fade at the normal rate.  People get out of range, and 2 minutes later, they're like "why was I so scared of that guy?  I should go back there and kick his ass..."

 

 

This power can easily be simulated with positive Reputation.

 

I don't have the book with me, so these numbers are estimates.  5th ed rules because that's what I know.

 

+8D6 Reputation, 14-  "Regal Bearing"   24 active points

Custom extra time limitation -- starts at 3D6, +1D6 per minute of exposure (-1)

 

There, 12 points.  It isn't the cripplingly powerful combat power that the other one is, but once people are in his presence, they're going to be more and more swayed by his clear divine right to rule.

[eepjr24]

This power can easily be simulated with positive Reputation.

 

I don't have the book with me, so these numbers are estimates.  5th ed rules because that's what I know.

 

+8D6 Reputation, 14-  "Regal Bearing"   24 active points

Custom extra time limitation -- starts at 3D6, +1D6 per minute of exposure (-1)

 

There, 12 points.  It isn't the cripplingly powerful combat power that the other one is, but once people are in his presence, they're going to be more and more swayed by his clear divine right to rule.

Which takes us back to the fact that his GM will not use 6ed rules. 

 

- E

[Surrealone]

He's got a -1 limitation where the Pre and Ego decrease only applies versus his orders.  But since he's the guy who is going to be giving the orders, that's not much of a limitation.  It's also a bonus for him, because it basically means that his friends are completely unaffected.  He's not going to be making harmful Pre attacks against them.  He's using a limitation to provide them with immunity to his power.  It shouldn't work like that.

You've incorrectly assumed that my character would be the only one giving orders; that's an incorrect assumption, as other characters will absolutely be plying their skills while barking "stop or I'll shoot" type commands.  The fact that Air of Authority would have no influence on such commands issued by other characters is, thus, a real limitation.

 

You've also incorrectly assumed that my character wouldn't use this on his compatriots -- as if we've never seen compatriots use their powers on one another furtively in the comics.  This is yet another incorrect assumption.

 

 

 

Which takes us back to the fact that his GM will not use 6ed rules. 

 

- E

5er has positive Reputation, too, so this isn't a problem associated with lack of migration to 6e.  That said, the GM is very by-the-book (meaning no GM-made exceptions from RAW) about what can go into frameworks.  Reputation is a perk -- which means, per RAW, it can't be placed in a framework ... so that's where positive Reputation would fall down in this case.  Moreover, positive Reputation doesn't have a well-defined range, doesn't reliably increase the receptiveness of people to the authority figure's unnatural ability (due to the 14- roll), and doesn't have an appropriately unnatural defense (since PRE is, well, natural)  ... so it misses those marks, too, when trying to represent an unnatural power.  But apparently massey is handwaving those things as equivalents when there's false equivalency at play in his suggestion.

[massey]

Which takes us back to the fact that his GM will not use 6ed rules.

 

- E

Positive Reputation is in 5th edition.

[massey]

You've incorrectly assumed that my character would be the only one giving orders; that's an incorrect assumption, as other characters will absolutely be plying their skills while barking "stop or I'll shoot" type commands.  The fact that Air of Authority would have no influence on such commands issued by other characters is, thus, a real limitation.

 

 

Your friends aren't going to be giving an order worth a crap if they're in the area of this power.  They can run around giving some negative Presence commands, rolling zero D6.

 

Given that your character is the one built to take advantage of his own power, this is probably not much of a limitation.

 

 

 

You've also incorrectly assumed that my character wouldn't use this on his compatriots -- as if we've never seen compatriots use their powers on one another furtively in the comics.  This is yet another incorrect assumption.

 

 

Being able to stab your friends in the back with your power is NOT a limitation.

 

Your friends all got free "personal immunity" to your power, but only when you want them to have it.

 

The fact that your buddies all drop to negative Pre and Ego when you use your power doesn't matter, because your power carries a made-up "only versus me" limitation on it.  When you use your Pre attack on the enemies ("surrender!") it does not affect your buddies.

 

The "limitation" you put on it is primarily a benefit to you.

 

You are going to Pre attack your enemies anyway.  Preventing your friend, who almost certainly has a lower Pre than you, and who happened to be standing far away from the fight, from getting a bonus on his Pre attack is not that big a limitation.  Preventing your friends from being unable to act without making Ego rolls every phase because they're at negative IS A BIG DEAL.

[dsatow]

The final value of the limitation is a GM call based on what s/he thinks is fair.

 

-1 for the power only to affect targets based from you may be a little much in my game, but not in another.  Ex: The PC say go forth and attack the enemy!  The mind controlled minions go forth and do just that.  When another PC witnesses them slaughtering innocents to get to the enemy, he tells them to stop or that the mind controlling PC would be upset if he found out, but the mind controller never specified this to his minion so the minion flips off the party member and kills everything in his path.

 

Again, I think reworking PRE is a better solution, but HERO does allow for a lot of solutions.  Whatever way might be acceptable in one campaign does not necessarily translate to another.*

 

 

*As an example, I've seen one character with a 3 maneuver martial art:martial dodge, martial flash, and a ~21 point custom maneuver.  While it was perfectly acceptable for his GM (I assume), it wasn't for me.

[massey]

The final value of the limitation is a GM call based on what s/he thinks is fair.

 

-1 for the power only to affect targets based from you may be a little much in my game, but not in another. Ex: The PC say go forth and attack the enemy! The mind controlled minions go forth and do just that. When another PC witnesses them slaughtering innocents to get to the enemy, he tells them to stop or that the mind controlling PC would be upset if he found out, but the mind controller never specified this to his minion so the minion flips off the party member and kills everything in his path.

 

Again, I think reworking PRE is a better solution, but HERO does allow for a lot of solutions. Whatever way might be acceptable in one campaign does not necessarily translate to another.*

 

 

*As an example, I've seen one character with a 3 maneuver martial art:martial dodge, martial flash, and a ~21 point custom maneuver. While it was perfectly acceptable for his GM (I assume), it wasn't for me.

There's no campaign at all where it is worth a -1. It isn't a valid limitation. Remember that this fades 5 points per turn. It's not like the controlling PC is going to be a long distance away when it wears off. The fact that another PC might have to make a Pre attack under the normal rules is not a limitation.

 

What's happened here is that the OP had an idea for a power that is tremendously undercosted and he wanted us to give a thumbs up to it. And he's got his mind set that this is the only way to do it, when that is not the case.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have to back up eepjr24 on this, IMHO if a killing attack with one 1 charge is a -2 limitation, is that equal in limitations to 4 charges, OAF on the killing attack?  Personally, I'd take the four charges.

If I am held fast by an Entangle and that one charge could break me out, it's much better than 4 charges with a Focus I cannot use. Ditto if I am Grabbed from behind. If I am disarmed, imprisoned without my focus, etc., that one charge I can use is way more useful than four charges I can't use.

 

By the book, a -1 limitations removes about half or more of the power's effectiveness. Simple math suggests 2 of these remove at least 75% of the ability's effectiveness, so you save 2/3 of the points for sacrificing 3/4 of its effectiveness. That feels a lot like "most of its effectiveness" being sacrificed. I find we are often too stingy on extreme limitation values, for example giving ED "only versus fire" a -1/2 limitation. I would certainly not allow ED "not versus fire" a -2 limitation, but add the two together and you pay full points. Going beyond -2 should be an option we consider more often.

 

 

I find OAF quite overvalued when no one ever attempts to remove the focus in combat, and I find a lot of players who use OAF for the cost break whine a lot when the focus is taken away, so in a game where the GM rarely makes the focus limit the character, OAF itself isn't worth -1.

 

The problem that I have with Surrealone's power build is that it seems overly complex, doesn't really do what he says he wants it to do, and has a lot of limitations of questionable value on it.

Yup.

 

This power can easily be simulated with positive Reputation.

I like that idea, Rather than being unaffected if you don't know this guy's reputation, you are unaffected if your culture would not positively acknowledge that regal bearing, or perhaps if you have a Psych Lim like "Hatred of authority". Back to "limited PRE", but that is an elegant way to create the effect.

 

You've incorrectly assumed that my character would be the only one giving orders; that's an incorrect assumption, as other characters will absolutely be plying their skills while barking "stop or I'll shoot" type commands.  The fact that Air of Authority would have no influence on such commands issued by other characters is, thus, a real limitation.

You are assuming that no one will issue commands you disagree with, rather than commands you would support. If your power did not have this MODIFIER (I question whether it is correctly classified as a LIMITATION), then those affected could be much more readily commanded by their own commanding officers. As well, I remain unclear on how this modifier gets adjudicated in practice. If these soldiers now have PRE against you, what prevents you identifying "these, my trusted Lieutenants. You will consider an order form them to be an order from me." Now your forceful presence is conveyed, at least to some extent, to your teammates, is it not?

 

You've also incorrectly assumed that my character wouldn't use this on his compatriots -- as if we've never seen compatriots use their powers on one another furtively in the comics.  This is yet another incorrect assumption.

On what planet is it disadvantageous for your abilities to work on your teammates when you want it to? Let us assume you and PC2 are engaged in a power struggle for team leadership. You erode your teammates' resistance to your leadership, without eroding their resistance to PC2's leadership. How did the limitation work to your detriment? It works to your advantage at least as often as to your detriment, which would be a net -0 to me. I think it actually is advantageous more often than detrimental which suggests this is an advantage instead of a limitation.

 

5er has positive Reputation, too, so this isn't a problem associated with lack of migration to 6e.  That said, the GM is very by-the-book (meaning no GM-made exceptions from RAW) about what can go into frameworks.  Reputation is a perk -- which means, per RAW, it can't be placed in a framework ... so that's where positive Reputation would fall down in this case.  Moreover, positive Reputation doesn't have a well-defined range, doesn't reliably increase the receptiveness of people to the authority figure's unnatural ability (due to the 14- roll), and doesn't have an appropriately unnatural defense (since PRE is, well, natural)  ... so it misses those marks, too, when trying to represent an unnatural power.  But apparently massey is handwaving those things as equivalents when there's false equivalency at play in his suggestion.

IT'S IN A FRAMEWORK? His air of authority just shuts when he does other things? That 14- roll simulates the fact that some will be unaffected by this Air of Authority (in your model, a bit of Power Defense purchased because a character is exceptionally resistant to toxins and chemicals does the same thing - and that may be a very natural resistance). You keep waffling on your description of the power between one possessed by real-world leaders and a quasi-mystic mind control lite.

[Hugh Neilson]

There's no campaign at all where it is worth a -1. It isn't a valid limitation.

I would add that "the GM was sucked into allowing an excessive limitation value" does not mean it was worth that limitation.

 

What's happened here is that the OP had an idea for a power that is tremendously undercosted and he wanted us to give a thumbs up to it. And he's got his mind set that this is the only way to do it, when that is not the case.

In fairness, I don't think Surrealone is trying to buy the power on the cheap - I think he undervalues what it is capable of, and I suspect he would play the power closer to its point cost value, rather than its true mechanical value. It's not that uncommon to have abilities whose utility only really comes out in play, at which time a costing adjustment may be appropriate to better balance it.

 

 

I concur that the mechanic used is not really reflective (in particular, there seems to be a lock on "because the SFX reduce the target's resistance to my abilities, and mine alone, it must be a reduc5tion to their abilities rather than an enhancement to mine"). However, it seems like that is at least as much on the GM, especially as the player presented an array of alternatives, even referring the GM to this thread to see the discussion.