Air of Authority

[Surrealone]

 

Your friends aren't going to be giving an order worth a crap if they're in the area of this power.  They can run around giving some negative Presence commands, rolling zero D6.

How do you figure they roll zero D6 against opponents?  Did you forget that the power has a limitation wherein the reduced PRE/EGO only applies to the authority figure, perhaps?  i.e. The reduced PRE/EGO of opponents and compatriots within the area of effect ... only matter with respect to the authority figure ... not to one another.  I.e.  Opponents and compatriots, alike, can all PRE attack and act against each other just fine -- and have normal PRE/EGO with respect to one another's PRE attacks, Mental Powers.  (Relative to one another, it's as if the drain is not present, at all.) 
 

 

Being able to stab your friends in the back with your power is NOT a limitation.

 

Your friends all got free "personal immunity" to your power, but only when you want them to have it.

The "limitation" you put on it is primarily a benefit to you.

Correct that being able to stab friends in the back isn't a limitation -- nor was a limitation taken for it.  Characters could just as easily stab one another in the back with EB, RKA, or any number of other powers, so I'm not sure what your point was...

​As for friends having supposed "personal immunity" to the power -- see above.  Compatriots ARE affected by the Drain if within range -- and are NOT immune; with EGO low enough, friends will have to make EGO rolls to act against the authority figure just like opponents affected by the power would have to. There's no choosing involved with that -- other than shutting down the power or moving such that friends are outside the area of effect.

I suspect what you were getting at was that the authority figure has an additional choice as to whether he leverages the increased receptiveness brought about by the Drain's effects -- regardless of whether it's on compatriots or opponents.  If this suspicion is correct, opponents ALSO have "personal immunity" to this aspect of the power's use, but only when I want them to have it -- which is a nice way of saying the 'personal immunity' assertion is a false equivalency, as what you're really getting at here is something that is inherent with the nature of draining non-physical characteristics.

 

As for the limitation being a benefit -- tell me precisely how a limitation that makes the PRE/EGO Drain apply only with respect to the authority figure -- wherein it doesn't lower opponents PRE/EGO with respect to compatriots (meaning the authority figure cannot render his compatriots PRE attacks and/or Mental Powers more effective since the drain has no impact with regard to them) against opponents ... is a benefit to me?  Exactly what benefit to me do you see in my friends, who normally would be able to leverage the reduced PRE/EGO -- being unable to do so?  Instructions counter to my own, perhaps?  If so, see below...

 

 

You are going to Pre attack your enemies anyway.  Preventing your friend, who almost certainly has a lower Pre than you, and who happened to be standing far away from the fight, from getting a bonus on his Pre attack is not that big a limitation.  Preventing your friends from being unable to act without making Ego rolls every phase because they're at negative IS A BIG DEAL.

I might PRE attack if I'm safe enough to do so;  remember this is a low-speed, glass-jaw character whose balance in combat effectiveness is created by being slow and 'normal' when it comes to attributes and defenses.  Thus, it's disingenuous to view this solely through a lens of PRE vs PRE/EGO, because combat entails a lot more than just PRE vs PRE/EGO.

Given this, preventing multiple, high(er) speed friends who -can- soak hits (where the authority figure can't) and can each PRE attack (with a very reasonable amount of PRE -- 3d6 or 3.5d6 base) from being able to leverage the authority figure's drain is a VERY big deal.  To wit, without the [-1] limitation, the most effective combat setup would be for the low-speed authority figure to initiate the Drain, then take cover ... and let his high(er) speed friends do very violent things followed by PRE attacks.  This would be MUCH more effective than otherwise (as well as make easy pickings of foes for a friendly mentalist), as this tactic synergizes a low-speed, noncombatant with high-speed combatants.  The authority figure, on his own, can muster one 4.5d6 PRE attack while his compatriots can each do 3d6 or 3.5d6 base PLUS bonuses for actions that the authority figure just wouldn't get -- resulting in each having a PRE attack that, when combined with actions, are likely more effective than the authority figure's lone PRE attack.

That very tactic is completely out of the picture because of the [-1] limitation that makes the drained stats relevant only with respect to the authority figure.  Folks here arguing it's worth less or worth no limitation are baffling me since they're essentially ignoring the fact that five PRE attacks would be made more effective in combat without the limitation, but only one is with the limitation in play -- and it's the one of the character least able to take combat actions that would add dice to his combat PRE attack.

And by the way, see the first response in this post with regard to your assertion in the last sentence of this quoted section, as friends of the authority figure at 0 EGO still need to make EGO rolls every phase to act if they are in the area of effect... but only if they want to act against the authority figure.

 

 

What's happened here is that the OP had an idea for a power that is tremendously undercosted and he wanted us to give a thumbs up to it. And he's got his mind set that this is the only way to do it, when that is not the case.

Wrong.  What happened here was as follows:

• The OP set out to build a power inspired by WhiteWolf's Awe & Majesty abilities.
• The OP posted here for ideas as to how to build the power.
• Ideas were, indeed, provided, and then presented to the GM.
• The GM (who is a long-time WhiteWolf player and GM) selected Drain from among the potential approaches because felt that it most properly modeled what Awe and Majesty do.
• ​Other posters, here, insist that it's wrong, problematic, or overly complex despite the GM's choice -- so the thread continues onward, with people taking unjustified potshots at the OP.

 

 

 

You are assuming that no one will issue commands you disagree with, rather than commands you would support. If your power did not have this MODIFIER (I question whether it is correctly classified as a LIMITATION), then those affected could be much more readily commanded by their own commanding officers. As well, I remain unclear on how this modifier gets adjudicated in practice. If these soldiers now have PRE against you, what prevents you identifying "these, my trusted Lieutenants. You will consider an order form them to be an order from me." Now your forceful presence is conveyed, at least to some extent, to your teammates, is it not?

I absolutely considered the issuance of commands with which the authority figure disagrees.  This isn't Mind Control, so affected targets retain free will.  At negative EGO they have to make an EGO roll to act, AND they also have to make an EGO roll to do something other than follow any given order.  But PRE is drained too, so (per RAW) at negative PRE they must ALSO make a PRE roll (in addition to the previously mentioned EGO roll) to act offensively or remain in the presence of anything remotely threatening.  i.e. Even if someone tells the opposition to hold their ground after the authority figure has suggested the mooks aren't paid enough to suffer the consequences of harming or defying a member of the nobility ... it is statistically improbable that they will be able to carry out any meaningful action.

On the flip side, it is statistically VERY probable that my compatriots would each PRE attack the drained mooks and issue orders congruent to my line of thinking. However, the limitation prevents them from doing so ... resulting 4 fewer (i.1. 1 instead of 5) augmented PRE attacks than if the limitation was not present.  That's 80% reduced effectiveness, folks...

 

With regard to adjudication of the modifier, there is no transitive property of authority implied or stated by the modifier, nor would I expect adjudication of the modifier by the GM to entail one.

 

 

On what planet is it disadvantageous for your abilities to work on your teammates when you want it to? Let us assume you and PC2 are engaged in a power struggle for team leadership. You erode your teammates' resistance to your leadership, without eroding their resistance to PC2's leadership. How did the limitation work to your detriment? It works to your advantage at least as often as to your detriment, which would be a net -0 to me. I think it actually is advantageous more often than detrimental which suggests this is an advantage instead of a limitation.

I never said it was a disadvantage for the ability to work on my teammates, so I'm not sure what drew this question.  At the power's core is the fact that the characteristics being drained are those that typically provide resistance to authority. With that in mind and to address your hypothetical scenario, I remind you that limitations don't manifest in all scenarios, yet are still worth something.  (example: Only works in water is clearly something that doesn't manifest as a limitation while within water).  Your hypothetical scenario is one in which the limitation doesn't happen to manifest.

 

However a rendition of your scenario where the limitation WOULD manifest is one where the authority figure Drained both the teammate (a mentalist) and PC2 ... and suggested to the teammate (mentalist) that he should give PC2 something nice to think about rather than struggling for leadership ... because the teammate's (mentalist's) Mental Illusions would be against PC2's normal EGO instead of against his drained EGO (since the drained EGO level of PC2 would only be relevant/apply to the authority figure). 

 

 

IT'S IN A FRAMEWORK? His air of authority just shuts when he does other things? That 14- roll simulates the fact that some will be unaffected by this Air of Authority (in your model, a bit of Power Defense purchased because a character is exceptionally resistant to toxins and chemicals does the same thing - and that may be a very natural resistance). You keep waffling on your description of the power between one possessed by real-world leaders and a quasi-mystic mind control lite.

Yup.  Drain is permissible in frameworks and, as I said, the GM is by-the-book (a la 'RAW is law, no GM-exceptions') when it comes to what can and can't be placed within one -- so the Reputation Perk with a 14- roll isn't permissible even if you happen to prefer it.  The inspirations for the power (WhiteWolf's Awe and Majesty) also had to be activated ... and shut off when blood was being used for other things, so it's a solid match.

​Also note that a 14- roll does NOT properly simulate actually having something like Power Defense, because that 14- roll might work on a target this use ... and might fail to work on the target during the next use ... while the defense will be present reliably if purchased.  It's a small detail -- but an important one.  (Basically, the 14- was handwaving...)

​Also, I have never waffled on the power's description; I have always asserted that this power should be beyond normal/unnatural.  However, it's supposed to be subtle.  If you are thinking of it as Mind Control lite, that's stronger than I envision it.  The Ultimate Mentalist (4e) has an interesting section on converting Mental Illusions effect totals (or Active Pts in Mental Illusions, whichever is less) into PRE dice to amp up PRE attacks.  I actually looked closely at this when trying to come up with initial build ideas to see if there was a consistent way to convert something like Mind Control into PRE dice (with Mental Defense being the proper defense) to simulate a sort of mentally supercharged Presence type of effect ... which led me to the Based on PRE [-1/4] limitation as described in The Ultimate Mentalist.  I was very surprised that the GM selected Drain over Mental Powers bought with the Based on PRE [-1/4] limitation...
 

 

In fairness, I don't think Surrealone is trying to buy the power on the cheap - I think he undervalues what it is capable of, and I suspect he would play the power closer to its point cost value, rather than its true mechanical value. It's not that uncommon to have abilities whose utility only really comes out in play, at which time a costing adjustment may be appropriate to better balance it.


I concur that the mechanic used is not really reflective (in particular, there seems to be a lock on "because the SFX reduce the target's resistance to my abilities, and mine alone, it must be a reduc5tion to their abilities rather than an enhancement to mine"). However, it seems like that is at least as much on the GM, especially as the player presented an array of alternatives, even referring the GM to this thread to see the discussion.

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt.  I'm absolutely not trying to buy potency on the cheap; I just want the correct modeling of a power I thought was interesting and appropriate ... and the GM chose the mechanic he wanted me to use.  If this ends up being ugly, we will, indeed, reassess.  By itself, I doubt this will be particularly ugly.  The place where it can be nasty is if Air of Authority is used ... followed by the authority figure using Mental Powers on those individuals already affected by Air of Authority.  (But that's any Drain/Attack combo for you -- highly effective.)

 

I also appreciate the fact that you recognize that the issue is largely GM-side.  Hey, it's his game and, to be fair, he has a LOT more experience with WhiteWolf's VtM than I do, so if he thinks Drain EGO/PRE is the correct modeling for an Awe/Majesty-like ability, who am I to argue?

[Hugh Neilson]

How do you figure they roll zero D6 against opponents? Did you forget that the power has a limitation wherein the reduced PRE/EGO only applies to the authority figure, perhaps?

If the Ruler of Planet X wants his subjects to obey him, and not obey you, and both the soldiers he wants to command and he himself have been exposed to your Air of Authority:

 

(a) does the Ruler get his normal PRE or reduced PRE to countermand your orders? The former would be a disadvantage to your “only affects their stat for me” limitation. The latter would not.

 

( do the soldiers use their normal PRE/EGO or reduced PRE/EGO to resist the Ruler’s commands? The former would be a significant advantage to your “only affects their stat for me” limitation.

 

As for friends having supposed "personal immunity" to the power -- see above. Compatriots ARE affected by the Drain if within range -- and are NOT immune; with EGO low enough, friends will have to make EGO rolls to act against the authority figure just like opponents affected by the power would have to. There's no choosing involved with that -- other than shutting down the power or moving such that friends are outside the area of effect.

You seem unable to perceive how, without “only affects their stats relative to me”, the AoE Drain would make your friends more susceptible to PRE attacks, mental attacks and even the required rolls for having a stat drained to 0 or below when dealing with opponents. The fact that they do not suffer this drawback is a significant advantage, not a drawback, to the limitation. In my (and Massey’s) view, that mitigates its value, such that the -1 applied is excessive, perhaps even vastly excessive.

 

Normally, avoiding the negative effects on your teammates would require a Selective area of effect, which would in turn require rolling to target each person in the area you want your Air of Authority to effect (or adding further advantages to avoid that targeting). You have not paid for that benefit, and you are not only getting the benefit, but also the ability to reduce your teammates’ resistance to any ability you choose to use on them, without reducing their resistance in respect of anyone else, teammate or enemy. You seem to utterly discount these significant benefits.

 

As for the limitation being a benefit -- tell me precisely how a limitation that makes the PRE/EGO Drain apply only with respect to the authority figure -- wherein it doesn't lower opponents PRE/EGO with respect to compatriots (meaning the authority figure cannot render his compatriots PRE attacks and/or Mental Powers more effective since the drain has no impact with regard to them) against opponents ... is a benefit to me? Exactly what benefit to me do you see in my friends, who normally would be able to leverage the reduced PRE/EGO -- being unable to do so? Instructions counter to my own, perhaps? If so, see below...

The drawback that your teammates cannot leverage the reduced PRE/EGO of others when it would serve your purposes is offset and more by the fact that your teammates, neutral parties and your adversaries cannot leverage the reduced PRE/EGO of others to act against your objectives.

 

If this were an AoE OCV drain, with the same “limitation”, it would be pretty clear that the ability of your teammates to continue attacking enemies at full OCV is a pretty significant benefit, despite being offset in part by the Drain having no effect on the enemy’s OCV when targeting them. It would also be pretty clear that this effect would be WAY better modelled by enhancing your DCV, rather than draining everyone else’s OCV, but only when they target you, since all it does is makes you harder to hit.

 

I might PRE attack if I'm safe enough to do so; remember this is a low-speed, glass-jaw character whose balance in combat effectiveness is created by being slow and 'normal' when it comes to attributes and defenses. Thus, it's disingenuous to view this solely through a lens of PRE vs PRE/EGO, because combat entails a lot more than just PRE vs PRE/EGO.

So would the build be different if a character with high SPD and Defenses wanted the same Air of Authority power? A character with a glass jaw and low SPD gets a lot less benefit from a high OCV and large attack, but he pays the same points as a character with high defenses and high SPD for his attack and OCV.

 

Given this, preventing multiple, high(er) speed friends who -can- soak hits (where the authority figure can't) and can each PRE attack (with a very reasonable amount of PRE -- 3d6 or 3.5d6 base) from being able to leverage the authority figure's drain is a VERY big deal.

If we remove the modifier, then your teammates are also having their PRE drained overall, and become less effective at making PRE attacks. While they cannot take advantage of the -31 PRE imposed on your opponents after a single turn (and one recovery), they would also have their own PRE reduced by 31 points, so their PRE attacks would seem pretty useless.

As well, your friends would be vulnerable to PRE attacks from incredibly violent actions of your opponents. That drawback is also avoided by this modifier.

And by the way, see the first response in this post with regard to your assertion in the last sentence of this quoted section, as friends of the authority figure at 0 EGO still need to make EGO rolls every phase to act if they are in the area of effect... but only if they want to act against the authority figure.

And you don’t see how that is advantageous compared by being required to make EGO rolls every phase to act, regardless of whether their actions would support or oppose your character? If a soldier on the other side is attacking your team, isn’t that opposing your character?

 

I absolutely considered the issuance of commands with which the authority figure disagrees. This isn't Mind Control, so affected targets retain free will. At negative EGO they have to make an EGO roll to act, AND they also have to make an EGO roll to do something other than follow any given order. But PRE is drained too, so (per RAW) at negative PRE they must ALSO make a PRE roll (in addition to the previously mentioned EGO roll) to act offensively or remain in the presence of anything remotely threatening. i.e. Even if someone tells the opposition to hold their ground after the authority figure has suggested the mooks aren't paid enough to suffer the consequences of harming or defying a member of the nobility ... it is statistically improbable that they will be able to carry out any meaningful action.

So we are back to, after one turn, the opponents are pretty much helpless. Turtle up for a turn and the battle is statistically over.

[Hugh Neilson]

I never said it was a disadvantage for the ability to work on my teammates, so I'm not sure what drew this question. At the power's core is the fact that the characteristics being drained are those that typically provide resistance to authority.

No, they are only those that provide resistance to YOUR authority, but you are taking a limitation for not reducing resistance to others’ authority as well, the default impact of a Drain.

With that in mind and to address your hypothetical scenario, I remind you that limitations don't manifest in all scenarios, yet are still worth something. (example: Only works in water is clearly something that doesn't manifest as a limitation while within water). Your hypothetical scenario is one in which the limitation doesn't happen to manifest.

The limitation does manifest, as an advantage. Without that “limitation”, your teammates would be just as unable to resist the other character’s authority as your own. That is not a limitation – it is an advantage.

 

Yup. Drain is permissible in frameworks and, as I said, the GM is by-the-book (a la 'RAW is law, no GM-exceptions') when it comes to what can and can't be placed within one

Again, the original description was an actual regal presence, not a psionic influence one turns off and on. Clearly, that was not an accurate description. Being in a framework will certainly make it cheaper. It’s also quite advantageous to be able to repurpose the points after triggering the power once to take effect over the entire turn. Offsetting that, the framework needs to be big enough to hold the power’s full AP, so the limitations are of considerably less value, as they will only reduce the slot cost.

 

Also note that a 14- roll does NOT properly simulate actually having something like Power Defense, because that 14- roll might work on a target this use ... and might fail to work on the target during the next use ... while the defense will be present reliably if purchased. It's a small detail -- but an important one. (Basically, the 14- was handwaving...)

And being resistant to regal authority because one is resistant to snake bites and diseases somehow simulates the power more accurately? It seems like AVAD: Mental Defense would be a better simulation, in that this is clearly a mental effect.

 

Finally, I don't think being more familiar with White Wolf is hugely advantageous in assessing how a given ability will perform in Hero. For example, does the WW ability continue to act after the "blood" starts being used for other things? This ability can, by default, be activated in Phase 12 and used, after which the pool can be switched to any other slot, while the targets continue to lose 3 CP of PRE and EGO per segment, which will recover at 5 CP per turn, while the character may use the pool for other purposes all the while. If the WW ability would shut down, this build is a poor simulation at best.

[massey]

 

How do you figure they roll zero D6 against opponents?  Did you forget that the power has a limitation wherein the reduced PRE/EGO only applies to the authority figure, perhaps?  i.e. The reduced PRE/EGO of opponents and compatriots within the area of effect ... only matter with respect to the authority figure ... not to one another.  I.e.  Opponents and compatriots, alike, can all PRE attack and act against each other just fine -- and have normal PRE/EGO with respect to one another's PRE attacks, Mental Powers.  (Relative to one another, it's as if the drain is not present, at all.) 

 

 

You're at the wrong starting point.  We're debating whether "only applies to my commands" is worth a -1 limitation.  I am telling you that it is not.  It should be, in fact, an Advantage.  It makes your power better, not worse.  So let's look at the power.

 

Area Effect Drain affects everyone within the area.  It affects your buddies.  It affects your enemies.  You bought Personal Immunity, so it doesn't affect you.

 

So you use this power, before any limitations.  It subtracts 18 Ego and 36 Pre from anyone in the area.  Your buddies and your enemies.  So now your buddies are all somewhere in the -15 to -20 Pre range.  That's negative 15 to negative 20.  Possibly even lower.  That's what the power does before you limit it.  Now the justification you give for that -1 limitation on the power is that "my friends can't Pre attack as well, they can't take advantage of the other side's reduced Pre".

 

But your friends have just been Drained to negative Pre.  They can't make Pre attacks anyway.  The "limitation" you tried to put on it doesn't do squat.  Your friends can already NOT DO THAT.  In fact, it makes your power significantly better, because otherwise your buddies have to make Ego rolls to even take an action.

[Surrealone]

 

If the Ruler of Planet X wants his subjects to obey him, and not obey you, and both the soldiers he wants to command and he himself have been exposed to your Air of Authority:

(a) does the Ruler get his normal PRE or reduced PRE to countermand your orders? The former would be a disadvantage to your “only affects their stat for me” limitation. The latter would not.

( do the soldiers use their normal PRE/EGO or reduced PRE/EGO to resist the Ruler’s commands? The former would be a significant advantage to your “only affects their stat for me” limitation.

In this scenario the Ruler of Planet X gets his normal PRE ... because it's his PRE relative to his soldiers that's relevant.  (i.e   Your scenario is specifically a dealing of/between Ruler of Planet X and the soldiers, not a dealing of/between Ruler X and the authority figure.)

 

​

 

And being resistant to regal authority because one is resistant to snake bites and diseases somehow simulates the power more accurately? It seems like AVAD: Mental Defense would be a better simulation, in that this is clearly a mental effect.

Huh?  What's Life Support got to do with any of this?  As to why Power Defense is the appropriate defense, from 5ER, here's the first line of the description of Power Defense:

A character with Power Defense is especially resistant to Drains, Transfers, Transforms, and related attacks.

 

 

Again, the original description was an actual regal presence, not a psionic influence one turns off and on. Clearly, that was not an accurate description. Being in a framework will certainly make it cheaper. It’s also quite advantageous to be able to repurpose the points after triggering the power once to take effect over the entire turn. Offsetting that, the framework needs to be big enough to hold the power’s full AP, so the limitations are of considerably less value, as they will only reduce the slot cost.

Now you're just making things up to support your incorrect assertion that I'm waffling on intent/design.  Need proof?

In my very first post I wrote:

• I see an air of authority as something that would influence those PRE-based interaction skills in positive ways for the individual possessing the air, but I also see it as something unto itself -- that goes beyond PRE and interactions...

 

And in my second post, I provided the following clarification since I apparently had not been clear enough:

• For those familiar with the concept, the Ventrue Presence ability named Awe very closely resembles what I'm after ... only it's intrinsic and 'on' whenever the character is awake ... and it takes exposure-based build-up to function.

As you can see, conceptually this has always been a beyond-natural ability.  That said, I truly wanted this to be intrinsic (i.e. outside a framework and inherent to the character) -- but the GM didn't care for that and felt it was better suited as an activated power (i.e. in a framework) rendering it closer to the original Awe ability from WhiteWolf's games.

The framework is, indeed, large enough to handle it.  The limitations do, indeed, only affect real costs, but that doesn't reduce the need to be judicious about them -- since a consistent approach should be taken whether in or out of a framework.  As for the lingering effect of a power in a framework, well, that's the nature of powers with fade rates in frameworks.  You call it 'advantageous' where, in reality, it's not an advantage (as the term is used in Hero System) or advantageous, at all, it's just how those powers work.  Drain doesn't have a caution or stop sign, so there's not even a flagged cause for concern, here, which makes me wonder why you bothered to opine on the subject.

 

 

You seem unable to perceive how, without “only affects their stats relative to me”, the AoE Drain would make your friends more susceptible to PRE attacks, mental attacks and even the required rolls for having a stat drained to 0 or below when dealing with opponents. The fact that they do not suffer this drawback is a significant advantage, not a drawback, to the limitation. In my (and Massey’s) view, that mitigates its value, such that the -1 applied is excessive, perhaps even vastly excessive.

Normally, avoiding the negative effects on your teammates would require a Selective area of effect, which would in turn require rolling to target each person in the area you want your Air of Authority to effect (or adding further advantages to avoid that targeting). You have not paid for that benefit, and you are not only getting the benefit, but also the ability to reduce your teammates’ resistance to any ability you choose to use on them, without reducing their resistance in respect of anyone else, teammate or enemy. You seem to utterly discount these significant benefits.

 

The drawback that your teammates cannot leverage the reduced PRE/EGO of others when it would serve your purposes is offset and more by the fact that your teammates, neutral parties and your adversaries cannot leverage the reduced PRE/EGO of others to act against your objectives.

It's not that I'm unable to perceive your scenario, above, it's that I've weighted the limitation based on realistic use in a gaming group, not in a vacuum where a presumption of 50:50 (friend:foe) was unrealistically made.

To wit:
Are you really making the straw man argument that this would be used as frequently on friends as foes and, therefore, it's a completely balanced-out wash (or even an advantage)?  If so, that's a flawed presumption based on my anecdotal experience.  In 20+ years of gaming with Hero System, I've certainly seen players use powers that affect one another negatively (blast, mind control, drain, etc.) on one another in mixed company of neutrals and foes, but NEVER as often as they do on foes with friendlies and neutrals around.  If I had to estimate the frequency of the use of powers that affect people negatively on friendlies, I'd call it 5-10% of the time.  That's certainly NOT 50% of the time and, thus, not a wash.

Claims that "you can use it on your friends without worry of foes taking advantage of it" by no means balances out the fact that far, far more frequently it would see use on foes without friends being able to take advantage of it.  This is why it remains a limitation.  Since the practical in-game use will likely limit teammates almost 5 to 9 times more frequently than it will limit foes, in my opinion the modifier is rightfully a limitation...

 

 

With regard to commands running counter to my objectives, I responded to that in the previous post, and I'll requote it here since you seem to have ignored it:

I absolutely considered the issuance of commands with which the authority figure disagrees.  This isn't Mind Control, so affected targets retain free will.  At negative EGO they have to make an EGO roll to act, AND they also have to make an EGO roll to do something other than follow any given order.  But PRE is drained too, so (per RAW) at negative PRE they must ALSO make a PRE roll (in addition to the previously mentioned EGO roll) to act offensively or remain in the presence of anything remotely threatening.  i.e. Even if someone tells the opposition to hold their ground after the authority figure has suggested the mooks aren't paid enough to suffer the consequences of harming or defying a member of the nobility ... it is statistically improbable that they will be able to carry out any meaningful action.

So let's do some math and run your scenario without the limitation:

• Authority figure gets a safe opening in which to maneuver and use this power on some Ruler of Planet X's mooks.
• Ruler of Planet X's mooks each with 11 EGO and 13 PRE are drained 18 points of EGO and 36 points of PRE after 1 turn of exposure.
• This places them at -7 EGO and -23 PRE, making their EGO rolls 8- and their PRE rolls 4-.
• Authority figure gets a moment of safety in combat and PRE attacks by mercifully reminding the mooks, "You aren't paid enough to risk the consequences of harming or defying a member of the nobility!"  Oratory is in play, negating the -1d6 penalty for PRE attacking in combat, so his 4.5d6 based roll is made with an average roll of 16.
  • -7 EGO is the higher between EGO and PRE in the drained state, so it is used for comparison to the PRE attack's effect roll.
  • Using EGO to compare, the authority figure has the mooks by 23 (i.e. 16+7) ... placing his PRE attack in the EGO+20 range.
  • Targets are awed, will not act for 1 full phase are at 1/2 DCV, and possibly will do as authority figure commands.
  • Targets receive +10 PRE only for purposes of resisting contrary PRE attacks made that turn.
  • Given that most people (especially soldiers who risk life/limb) tend to feel underpaid for their services, it is highly likely the GM would rule that the soldiers would stop opposing the authority figure.
• Knowing this, Ruler of Planet X shoots one of his soldiers in the back of the head and commands the others, "Stop them at any cost or I'll kill you all!" as a PRE attack.  He, too gets 4.5d6 base with Oratory negating the -1d6 combat penalty for PRE attacks.  He also gets an extra 1d6 (for a total of 5.5d6) because he and his men outnumber the authority figure's team, plus 3d6 for taking a very violent action (i.e. position of strength).  He rolls 8.5d6 and rolls an average roll of 30.
  • 13 PRE is the higher between EGO and PRE for the mooks, so it is used for comparison to the PRE attack's effect roll.
  • Using PRE to compare and adding +10 to it because of the authority figure's previous PRE attack effects (see above), Ruler of Planet X has the mooks' adjusted PRE by 7 (i.e. 30-[13+10])
  • Targets are impressed and Ruler of Planet X can go before their DEX this phase (but he's already gone) so targets instead receive +5 PRE only for resisting contrary PRE attacks made that phase.
• The counter-order by the Ruler of Planet X (with 4d6 more PRE attack dice than the authority figure had) ... had no impact/bearing on the outcome -- even with a very violent action ... and even when compared to the undrained/untouched characteristics of the mooks.  (I skipped soliloquy adjustments for convenience since it's so subjective, btw.) This this would be relatively common with mooks ... in a world where meaningfully larger PRE attacks at this game's point level are very unusual. 
• But lets pretend, for a moment, that Ruler of Planet X got PRE+20, just to humour the concern you're taking so seriously.
  • Despite the counter-order at PRE+20, per RAW the mooks will likely just stand there unless they make an 8- EGO roll to act.  They each have a 26% chance of success on that roll...
  • Assuming they make that 8- (26% chance ) roll, the mooks will follow the last order given -- which was from the Ruler of Planet X.
  • However, the Ruler of Planet X killed one of his own men (which qualifies as "anything remotely threatening" ... and the authority figure and his team also qualify as something "remotely threatening").
  • Thus, per RAW the mooks must make a 4- (2% chance) PRE roll to carry out the Ruler of Planet X's order by acting offensively against the authority figure and his team.  Failure will result in flight by the mooks -- and only the ones who made the 8- (26% EGO roll).
• So either the mooks stop fighting and depart because of authority figure's PRE attack ... or in the HIGHLY IMPROBABLE scenario where someone successfully PRE-attacks to deliver a counter-order (see above, where I presumed it happened) a number of mooks stand there and do nothing while those few that can actually move, most likely flee because of a failed PRE check.  (Statistically, only 26 of every 100 mooks would be able to do more than just stand there .... and only 2% of that 26 would be able to (i.e. 8 out of 100) would be able to act offensively.  (For context, keep in mind that we seldom see more than 5-8 mooks at a time in a HEAVY encounter -- and, again PRE attacks don't tend get much bigger than 8.5d6 -10d6.  I think I've seen a 12d6 PRE attack once in 2 years of this campaign ... and it happened to be mine for something completely ridiculous I did in combat after getting the drop on someone.)​

Now, consider if you took the limitation out of the picture as if it wasn't part of the power.  Ruler of Planet X would have PRE-attacked the drained targets and used the same -7 and -23 PRE for comparisons that the authority figure used.  He'd also have achieved, what, EGO+30 with his PRE attack, right?  But that wouldn't change the fact that 74% of the time the mooks will stand around doing nothing due to a failed EGO roll ... while 26% of the time they will be able to flee/fight, with fight coming up as the choice only 2% of the time.  Placed in the context of only a handful of mooks at a time, the presence or lack of the limitation just doesn't amount to anything terribly meaningful -- despite the huge deal you've made over it based on your gut feeling instead of the math.

 

Do you see why your concern about counter-orders is moot?  The statistical probability of counter-orders being meaningful in any one engagement is very, very low.  It is, in fact, so low, that I felt reasonably justified in taking it out of the equation with an appropriate limitation that spares the entire gaming group all of the rolling and computation noted, above.  I did so on the following basis:

• In this group:
  • The authority figure isn't built as a combatant, meaning in combat most of his actions are defensive or in a support role.  This keeps the power (and most of his offensive powers) from being instant I-Win buttons ... and is part/parcel of how he's been balanced in the game world by the GM.  After all, you can't go on the offensive if you're too busy keeping yourself alive or helping others ... and you're low-speed.
  • The limitation reduces this ability's impact on friendly vs. foe PRE attacks by 80% (affects 1 freiendly/self PRE attack instead of 5).
  • Counter-orders by friends are unlikely to be given (the team has a Mind Link and typically discusses such things beforehand on said Mind Link)
• In this game:
  • The power is clearly more likely to be used on foes than on friends.  I had eyeballed it, but now that I've given it more thought, I've identified it's at least 5-9 times more likely ... possibly more.
  • When used on friendlies, the power most likely would not be used in mixed company of neutrals/foes.
  • If used on friendlies, the ability for others to issue contrary orders is likely to be even less effective than the mook example, above, as they tend to have higher characteristics than mooks.  (Likewise, the effect of the power on friendlies will also likely be lower.)
  • It is highly unlikely that orders will effectively be countermanded (whether on friendlies or foes).  I eyeballed this, too, but now that I've done the math, the statistical probability of countermanding orders clearly shows your concern to be an outlier, not a major issue.

So there's why I consider the modifier a limitation ... and the raw numbers that show that your concern about possible counter-orders is an edge-case argument for no limitation (or worse, an advantage).   Frankly, I'm truly baffled at the insistence that something that is already improbable  (successful PRE attack to issue counter orders) .... with a statistical likelihood of less than 2% of successful countermand when the improbable scenario crops up ... completely negates 80% reduction in friendlies' ability to leverage the Drain ... and should cost more points.  I could absolutely see no limitation or an advantage if the use case were for a power to be used on friends and foes alike -- as that's where selective targeting would be desired ... but that's just not the case, here.

 

If this were an AoE OCV drain, with the same “limitation”, it would be pretty clear that the ability of your teammates to continue attacking enemies at full OCV is a pretty significant benefit, despite being offset in part by the Drain having no effect on the enemy’s OCV when targeting them. It would also be pretty clear that this effect would be WAY better modelled by enhancing your DCV, rather than draining everyone else’s OCV, but only when they target you, since all it does is makes you harder to hit.

I agree -- but the GM selected Drain.  Given this, I would expect the logic you just enumerated with the AoE OCV Drain (that has the limitation we're speaking about) to be consistently applied regardless of the characteristic being drained.

 

 

 

If we remove the modifier, then your teammates are also having their PRE drained overall, and become less effective at making PRE attacks. While they cannot take advantage of the -31 PRE imposed on your opponents after a single turn (and one recovery), they would also have their own PRE reduced by 31 points, so their PRE attacks would seem pretty useless.
As well, your friends would be vulnerable to PRE attacks from incredibly violent actions of your opponents. That drawback is also avoided by this modifier.

And you don’t see how that is advantageous compared by being required to make EGO rolls every phase to act, regardless of whether their actions would support or oppose your character? If a soldier on the other side is attacking your team, isn’t that opposing your character?

So we are back to, after one turn, the opponents are pretty much helpless. Turtle up for a turn and the battle is statistically over.

Now you've made another edge case presumption that the Drain would be done with friendlies within the area of effect during combat.  I don't know about in your games, but in ours, friendlies don't clump up to make themselves tempting AoE targets for their foes.  Thus, the REALISTIC likelihood of friendlies being within my relatively small area of effect is very low .... and if they were and the power didn't have that limitation, who in their right mind would use it on their friendlies in combat without selective targeting???  No one. You're saying that I can use it combat with the advantage as written, but the fact that I can do so still doesn't change the fact that the chances of it are very, very low -- so low that it in no way counterbalances the far more likely and common use of the power on foes while friendlies are outside the AoE.

​So what we're really back to is another (that's two, so far) improbable edge case on which you've built another (also two, so far) straw man argument.  You've also applied logic to an AoE OCV Drain and then failed to consistently apply it to this AoE EGO/PRE Drain.  You've also suggested another advantage (AVAD) needs to be applied to drive costs up despite Power Defense, by its very definition, being the proper defense for the Drain.  All of this smacks of pot shots at the power because you don't happen to like it.  Maybe that's not what you intend, but that's really how it looks/feels from this angle ... and if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck, it's probably a duck...

 

I am not angry or upset, by the way -- or even frustrated.  I am, however, tired of you trying to shape a limitation's value primarily around unlikely or uncommon edge cases rather than around the 80-90% use case scenario, because I feel it is common sense that the value of a limitation in a campaign should be shaped around the most common/likely scenarios ... with -some- thought given to the edge cases.  (i.e. IMHO the bulk of usage should define most of the value of a modifier, with edge cases helping refine it.  That's been done, which is why the modifier is at -1 instead of something larger.)

 

This is probably my last post on the topic unless you good folks want to talk about something other than edge cases.

[Grailknight]

Okay, three points that I see in this back and forth.

 

First, the build is illegal in 5th because the entire thing is based on DoT which doesn't exist yet. I'll assume you've already worked this out with your GM. If you haven't then the closest you can come is Uncontrolled Continuous which can't tick faster than your SPD. So the onset time for full effect is at least doubled for a 6 SPD character, more if SPD is lower,

 

Second, I believe you are misunderstanding how Negative EGO and Presence function under 5th. The EGO roll to act is only in play in the absence of an external command. Targets at Negative will always obey the greatest PRE attack they are subjected to. So, yes, it is an advantage to not have the Drain affect the opposing counterattack.

 

Third, if "only in regards to me" is valid as a Limitation then it is only in regard to you. Targets will ignore and/or defer to you (after the power takes effect and you make your subsequent PRE attack many phases later) but are fully functional with respect to your allies. No lost phases, hesitation, obedience or lost CV versus anyone but you.  So combat starts and you may be ignored but that means more mooks attack each of your teammates or negotiations break down when your allies make suggestions because those are received with normal attitude not your greater wisdom and impact

 

I realize you have to work with what the GM will allow, but of the fours ways proposed to model this power(Drain, extra PRE, Mind Control anf Transform) he chose the clunkiest option.  

[Grailknight]

Saying that "edge cases"  shouldn't be part of a discussion of Limitations is arguing in bad faith. Limitations are by definition edge cases in Hero that lessen the functionality of a power from the normal version without them. Their value is based on how commonly or rarely they occur and how much they lessen functionality.

[Beast]

air off authority:  Minor Transform 2 1/2d6 (will generally follow orders/suggestions that do not conflict w/ targets goals , stupid actions done by "air off authority" or time), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +3/4) (55 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (shut them up; -1/2)

[Hugh Neilson]

In this scenario the Ruler of Planet X gets his normal PRE ... because it's his PRE relative to his soldiers that's relevant.  (i.e   Your scenario is specifically a dealing of/between Ruler of Planet X and the soldiers, not a dealing of/between Ruler X and the authority figure.)

But the Soldiers also get their normal PRE to resist - advantage: Air of Authority.

 

Huh?  What's Life Support got to do with any of this?  As to why Power Defense is the appropriate defense, from 5ER, here's the first line of the description of Power Defense:

 

A character with Power Defense is especially resistant to Drains, Transfers, Transforms, and related attacks.

I'm well aware of the mechanics of Power Defense. It is common for toxins and diseases to be built as Drains and other effects versus Power Defense. You are asserting the SFX of Air of Authority make it appropriate it be resisted by Power Defense (rather than, say, Mental Defense). So what is the SFX of the Power Defense that appropriately resists it? I don't find Power Defense the sole, or even most, appropriate defense to your construct as described.

 

Your reasoning is circular - Power Defense is appropriate because you built it as a Drain, and it has to be a Drain because Power Defense is the appropriate defense. BTW, in 6e, it's not typically an advantage to change between equally common defenses, lie Mental and Power defense, so if you're co-opting DoT, maybe that 6e element should also be considered.

 

 

The framework is, indeed, large enough to handle it.  The limitations do, indeed, only affect real costs, but that doesn't reduce the need to be judicious about them -- since a consistent approach should be taken whether in or out of a framework.  As for the lingering effect of a power in a framework, well, that's the nature of powers with fade rates in frameworks.  You call it 'advantageous' where, in reality, it's not an advantage (as the term is used in Hero System) or advantageous, at all, it's just how those powers work.  Drain doesn't have a caution or stop sign, so there's not even a flagged cause for concern, here, which makes me wonder why you bothered to opine on the subject.

 

DoT is a caution/stop sign ability, I believe. The rapid onset DOT is a major contributor to the effectiveness of this build, in that it is allowing you to do damage 12 times in a single turn from a single action which need not even make a to hit roll of any significance. Given your 2 SPD would normally restrict you to two uses of the power without DoT, I'd say that's pretty significant.

 

You have not answered a key question on the framework. You are trying to build a WW construct in Hero. You note that in WW the character would have to keep resources allocated to the Air to keep it running, and can't use other abilities while doing so. In WW, would the effects of this Awe ability remain active, and even grow, after the character shifts his Blood to operate other abilities? If not, the construct is not an accurate representation of that ability.

 

 

It's not that I'm unable to perceive your scenario, above, it's that I've weighted the limitation based on realistic use in a gaming group, not in a vacuum where a presumption of 50:50 (friend:foe) was unrealistically made.

A -1 limitation implies this makes the power markedly less useful. Given the balance of advantages and drawbacks, and the fact your character appears to be the one most likely to use mental or PRE based abilities on the targets, I do not think it is markedly less useful. It is, however, extremely clunky, as Grailknight points out.

[Hugh Neilson]

To wit:

Are you really making the straw man argument that this would be used as frequently on friends as foes and, therefore, it's a completely balanced-out wash (or even an advantage)?

It is not relevant whether it is used as friends or foes. It works the same in both cases. What is relevant is how often a friend might wish to use a PRE or EGO based ability on targets of your power versus how often a foe might wish to. I see it as just as likely a foe

would attempt to sway the target, his former ally, back to his side. Your "limitation" makes it much more difficult for him to do so. Or is it only PC's who might use PRE or Mental Powers in your games?

 

 

Claims that "you can use it on your friends without worry of foes taking advantage of it" by no means balances out the fact that far, far more frequently it would see use on foes without friends being able to take advantage of it. This is why it remains a limitation. Since the practical in-game use will likely limit teammates almost 5 to 9 times more frequently than it will limit foes, in my opinion the modifier is rightfully a limitation...

You are ignoring the fact that, by virtue of its area of effect, it will virtually always be used on friend and foe alike. That requires judicious use of most AoE constructs to avoid inflicting harm on one's allies (for example, a teammate probably does not toss in a grenade when you are attacked hand to hand by three enemy soldiers, because you will also blow up). Your "limitation" removes that drawback from the Air of Authority.

 

Removed your lengthy example. Its fatal flaw is the suggestion that the enemy soldiers must, if their EGO and PRE is drained to everyone, make EGO rolls to follow the opposing leader's orders. They must make such rolls to NOT follow those orders. As to the PRE roll, it seems they may now be more afraid of him than you, but at worst they are paralyzed. They will not be carrying out your orders either.

 

 

Now you've made another edge case presumption that the Drain would be done with friendlies within the area of effect during combat. I don't know about in your games, but in ours, friendlies don't clump up to make themselves tempting AoE targets for their foes.

They tend to mingle with opponents.

 

Thus, the REALISTIC likelihood of friendlies being within my relatively small area of effect is very low .... and if they were and the power didn't have that limitation, who in their right mind would use it on their friendlies in combat without selective targeting???

Precisely. You are not forced to make that choice, and you are suggesting the cost of the power should be markedly reduced for the removal of that significant limitation in the power's utility.

 

No one. You're saying that I can use it combat with the advantage as written, but the fact that I can do so still doesn't change the fact that the chances of it are very, very low -- so low that it in no way counterbalances the far more likely and common use of the power on foes while friendlies are outside the AoE.

Only if the foes conveniently cluster up as targets, which you have suggested no one with any sense would do. In non-combat use, it would also seem pretty suspicious if all your friends move away from you when you start speaking. Does your :sucks in combat" character often separate himself from his teammates when meeting with enemies?

 

That issue is removed because of this alleged "limitation" as well. You can repeat "no, I don't think so" as many times as you like. It does not change the reality that full reduction of PRE and EGO is actually disadvantageous compared to your modified "only against me" power a lot of the time. I have read what you said. I simply do not agree with it. Time will tell whether your GM sees it similarly once the ability sees play, although it doesn't make a lot of difference as it is only impacting a slot cost. It seems like he and you are sold on the build, so play on!

[massey]

As Surrealone mentioned, using a power that knocks people down to negative Pre and Ego, would be stupid if it affected all your friends. If your buddies were near you, you wouldn't use it because it would screw over your own side.

 

The fact that he now CAN use it if his buddies are bunched up around him, without screwing over his own side, shows that it is a modifier that makes his power better. He can use it in more situations, with no risk of harming his allies.

 

Had he bought it as Area Effect: selective, or as Area Effect: any area, I would have much less of a problem with a limitation that meant it only worked vs your own Pre attacks. But you've got to pay for it to not affect your buddies.

[eepjr24]

<checks pulse>

 

Yep, this horse is dead. I think we can stop beating it now.

 

- E