Air of Authority

[Hugh Neilson]

This does showcase a system weakness. The inability to model long term mental effects. It does temporary effects well, but the effects of a "Charismatic person" ie a Steve Jobs, or an Adolph Hitler aren't handled at all.

 

I suggest, rather, that a 30+ PRE attack, perhaps coupled with good social skills, is not well considered in the average game.  30+, the target will consider long and hard what the attacker has said.  We tend to only use PRE attacks for combat hesitation, and ignore those non-combat, potentially longer term, effects.

 

Steve Jobs and Adolph Hitler had high PRE and various social Perks and Skills that they used effectively.

 

What the OP is talking about is a power that has to be actively turned on, and which is above and beyond what mere mortals can achieve with their sparkling personalities.

 

True as far as it goes - but look at the impact these high PRE personalities have had in the real world.  They did not have powers that need to be actively turned on, and they were mere mortals (albeit the "mere mortals" to PRE that, say, Bruce Lee is to DEX and Martial Arts, Einstein and Hawkings are to INT and science skills, and Rasputin was to CON).

 

How many GM's would allow a Heroic character with 30 PRE and big social skills to achieve effects as amazing (to the average man) as a scientist with 30 INT and big inventor/science skills, or a 30 DEX combatant with Martial Arts and a large purchase of combat skill levels?  Versus how many dismiss the social arena with "well, this NPC could never be persuaded/conned/impressed/intimidated into doing such a thing?

 

In fairness, how many players would accept their characters being similarly influenced?

 

We don't allow PRE the effects it has achieved in real life, much less "cinematic reality" PRE.  Air of Authority (spoken, rather than as described) sounds a lot like real world Legendary levels of Charisma/PRE.

[Christopher]

This does showcase a system weakness. The inability to model long term mental effects. It does temporary effects well, but the effects of a "Charismatic person" ie a Steve Jobs, or an Adolph Hitler aren't handled at all.

Every mechanic that exists can be applied to the heroes as well*. And wich player would want his character to be under a "long therm mental effect"?

What little need there is can be easily done via Transform to add Complications (Physical or Psychological).

 

*This is also why Social skills are not as useable. Players want thier Characters immune to Social Skills, wich means they play no role.

Social Combat systems are maybe more interesting then many think.

[Surrealone]

*This is also why Social skills are not as useable. Players want thier Characters immune to Social Skills, wich means they play no role.

Social Combat systems are maybe more interesting then many think.

Interaction Skills have turned out to be hugely important in our game and all of the PC's have at least a few of them.  The character who will have Air of Authority actually has all but 4 of them (because those 4 make no sense with his concept).

 

 

 Air of Authority (spoken, rather than as described) sounds a lot like real world Legendary levels of Charisma/PRE.

As described, it's supposed to be otherworldy/unnatural influence.   Lots of good ideas have been kicked around for that.  Here's the rehash.

• Transform is the longest-lasting, but also the most prone to being rejected due to GM bias on the matter.
• Mind Control is the most straight-forward
• EGO Drain is the second most straight-forward
• PRE Aid and straight PRE would be the best option if PRE would be permitted the effect it should be able to achieve (when compared with equivalent levels of straight INT or straight DEX) 

So far I like the PRE Aid route the best from a purely conceptual standpoint.  However, in gameplay terms Hugh has painted the picture properly; no GM I've had in the last 2 decades has permitted high PRE attacks lasting effects akin to Jobs, Hitler, etc.  Short term fear/run/stop/surrender PRE attack effects tend to be the usual fare and norm in games, and my current GM is no exception.  Given this gameplay issue, I'm not sure a +PRE power or Aid to PRE makes sense -- but I will discuss it with the GM.

 

A low-dice AoE EGO Drain with a reduced fade rate and Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, Full IPE plus a -1/2 Limitation (only applies to Authority Figure) is pretty clean as an implementation, resulting in obsequious behavior from affected individuals.  Per RAW, a small amount of Power Defense would shut this down but it would be worth discussion with the GM to see how he felt about Mental Defense being used instead; I don't have a preference either way, but Mental Defense seems to make more sense and it's also more common in our game world.  This approach also stacks/works best with PRE attacks and Mind Control -- as it should given the nature of Air of Authority as described, above.

 

A low-dice AoE Mind Control with Cumulative (and an increased maximum), Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, Full IPE plus a -1/4 Limitation (based on PRE) as that limitation is spelled out in The Ultimate Mentalist (in order to simulate mental-based enhanced Presence) is very clean as an implementation.  My chief concern around it stems from trying to stack it with an actual (and very direct) Mind Control, PRE attack, etc.  as it should be additive with them in most cases.  Can this be done without Linked?

 

A low-dice AoE Transform with Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, and Full IPE probably has much longer-lasting effects than I am looking for, but's absolutely a solid approach to the problem.  Unfortunately, much like PRE not getting equal treatment among other stats when bought to very high levels, I know my GM is gunshy about transformations of other characters' abilities.  Still, it's worth discussion with him on it...

[Anaximander]

I disagree that the ability discussed does not exist in the real world.  I have personally met people who seemed to have an uncanny ability to generate loyalty and respect in others over a long period of time.  I think Hugh's idea is the most workable, but I would give the mind control the emotions only limitation to reflect that the ability only affects a targets emotional responses.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like the "emotional" limitation - how often have people who idolized someone taken actions that "someone" would or does find deplorable?

 

This is not an area of precise control. It is definitely a real-world ability, but could extend more into a cinematic ability.

[Anaximander]

What you are talking regarding the lengths some people will take for a charismatic leader about is the herd mentality that most people have.  That is not the power of the charismatic person.  It is a weakness common of humans in general.  If you want a mechanic for it, there is an option in the one of the second advanced player guide has rule options for social combat.  If you want to adapt it to a game, you could probably give the charismatic leader some kind social attack with a penetration advantage to represent his capacity to reach past the inhibitions that would normally keep him stepping out of character, but personally, unless I was planning a campaign where social interaction was an important part of the game, I think I would avoid using that as there are already a lot of characteristics and such to take into consideration.

[Doc Democracy]

You know, I have read this and the idea of adding a complication to someone's character sheet is my favourite but I have the idea of an IPE telepathy, gradual effect, only to send the message that this guy is something special. I would also give skill levels with social skills only against those that have been subject to this air of authority...

[Tasha]

I still think that everyone's overthinking this. In the system (6e) if you want to be pretty or Ugly you buy the Talent "Striking Appearance" which is really a die of Presence (5 Pre) in a specific circumstance. It is implied that you will have that striking apperance no matter how long you hang around with people. Also there is NOTHING in the Skills section of the rules to suggest that Pre Based skills get harder to make if you have to make more than one. This means that you can use persuasion and Oratory time and time again without penalty. So having a high Presence will give a general Charismatic feel and the Air of Authority can be purchased as Striking Appearance "Air of Authority" and used as a bonus to Pre skills in circumstances where having that feel about the PC will make a difference (ie Ordering soldiers or persuading someone to follow your orders, even stirring up the troops during a rally).

Presence Attacks have a fade because you are doing something impressive and or frightening in combat, those kind of things tend to lose their ability to frighten after it's used more than once.

[g3taso]

"I am thinking a form of Cumulative mind control, probably with some Extra Time, is the best representation. I am also thinking, from the GM perspective, that a character who gradually takes over complete control of anyone he's able to spend significant time with may be problematic in-game."

 

Now that is a wonderful, amazing, terrifying idea.

 

[Surrealone]

I still think that everyone's overthinking this. In the system (6e) if you want to be pretty or Ugly you buy the Talent "Striking Appearance" which is really a die of Presence (5 Pre) in a specific circumstance. It is implied that you will have that striking apperance no matter how long you hang around with people. Also there is NOTHING in the Skills section of the rules to suggest that Pre Based skills get harder to make if you have to make more than one. This means that you can use persuasion and Oratory time and time again without penalty. So having a high Presence will give a general Charismatic feel and the Air of Authority can be purchased as Striking Appearance "Air of Authority" and used as a bonus to Pre skills in circumstances where having that feel about the PC will make a difference (ie Ordering soldiers or persuading someone to follow your orders, even stirring up the troops during a rally).

 

Presence Attacks have a fade because you are doing something impressive and or frightening in combat, those kind of things tend to lose their ability to frighten after it's used more than once.

Tasha:

​Please see posts #2 and #6 of this thread.  Striking Appearance has already come up and is a non-starter as we're talking a 5ER game.

[Doc Democracy]

Tasha:

​Please see posts #2 and #6 of this thread.  Striking Appearance has already come up and is a non-starter as we're talking a 5ER game.

 

You know that HERO has always written in powers dont you?  It is the USP of the system for me.

 

Just cause something is a 6th edition invention does not rule it out of a 5th edition game...

[Surrealone]

Just cause something is a 6th edition invention does not rule it out of a 5th edition game...

It does with my GM; he's very resistant to 6e for some reason...

[zslane]

He's not only resistant to 6e, he's resistant to expanding his 5er game (new Talents, Skills, what-have-you). So be it. I think he's missing out on one of the system's greatest strengths, but it's his loss (and yours by extension, sadly).

[Surrealone]

I haven't given up on trying to convince him, but I've found the more I bring it up, the more he thinks I've got some personal stake in the switch.  Once that observation was made, I just started bringing the materials to our games and digging through them in plain view ... without bringing it up, anymore.

[Tasha]

Tasha:

​Please see posts #2 and #6 of this thread.  Striking Appearance has already come up and is a non-starter as we're talking a 5ER game.

 I guess you missed my post about how to build Striking Appearance as a power. Heck, I even mention it in my last post.

 

Striking appearance is +5 Presence -1 limitation "Only for X Appearance" comes out to 2.5 points. per +5 Pre.

[Doc Democracy]

It does with my GM; he's very resistant to 6e for some reason...

Then surely the idea is not to mention 6th edition. You need just to present 5th edition versions of 6th edition powers and call them something different. You don't smash down prejudice, you work round it. As Tasha pointed out, there is nothing new in Striking Appearance. In 6th edition Steve really did try to move everything to more basic building blocks and weeded out those things that just worked by game fiat. It should make importing stuff much easier.

 

 

Doc

[Surrealone]

 I guess you missed my post about how to build Striking Appearance as a power. Heck, I even mention it in my last post.

 

Striking appearance is +5 Presence -1 limitation "Only for X Appearance" comes out to 2.5 points. per +5 Pre.

Tasha:

No, I read it, but I don't think it fits as built/billed in 5ER.  Hugh has already correctly pointed out that PRE is, for whatever reason, generally not handled with the same impact as INT, DEX, etc. when it is present in large quantities.  Einstein, by the books, had what, 23 INT (cira 230 IQ)? -- and look at the world-changing impact he had.  Do GM's give 23 PRE the same potential for impact in most games?  No, they don't -- at least not in my experience.  Instead, high PRE tends to be reserved for short-term, immediate things that lack meaningful/lasting impact once outside of the moment.

 

That's ultimately the problem with a +PRE approach for Air of Authority: I'm trying to simulate and unnatural/otherworldy effect ... and PRE is rarely used to properly simulate a natural/worldly effect.

 

All:

I went over all of this with my GM, by the way; the input from each of you was extremely helpful, as it allowed for a lot of build paths and discussion points.  He didn't like the continuous/uncontrolled/0 END approaches for obvious reasons (and, ultimately, the same reasons I don't care for them).  He also didn't like the +PRE/Aid approaches for the reason noted, above.  This left the Drain approach as the preferred one, which he said made sense in the context of the authority figure's unnatural/otherworldly effect manifesting as weakness of willpower in those around him.  I'm undecided as to whether the Drain will be to EGO or both PRE/EGO, but at least now I've got some direction.

[Hugh Neilson]

I still think that everyone's overthinking this. In the system (6e) if you want to be pretty or Ugly you buy the Talent "Striking Appearance" which is really a die of Presence (5 Pre) in a specific circumstance. It is implied that you will have that striking apperance no matter how long you hang around with people. Also there is NOTHING in the Skills section of the rules to suggest that Pre Based skills get harder to make if you have to make more than one. This means that you can use persuasion and Oratory time and time again without penalty. So having a high Presence will give a general Charismatic feel and the Air of Authority can be purchased as Striking Appearance "Air of Authority" and used as a bonus to Pre skills in circumstances where having that feel about the PC will make a difference (ie Ordering soldiers or persuading someone to follow your orders, even stirring up the troops during a rally).

 

Presence Attacks have a fade because you are doing something impressive and or frightening in combat, those kind of things tend to lose their ability to frighten after it's used more than once.

I think limited PRE is the "head and shoulders best" representation of this ability. That said, it relies on the GM allowing positive, long-lasting PRE effects to have impact comparable to equivalent points spent on other largely non-combat abilities.

 

The PRE attack fades because shock value is eroded on repeated use. Things that were scandalous on TV 20 years ago are lame today for similar reasons. You would not have heard "I'm p***ed off" in prime time TV back in the '90s.

 

 

Tasha:

​Please see posts #2 and #6 of this thread.  Striking Appearance has already come up and is a non-starter as we're talking a 5ER game.

As has been noted numerous times, you simply write "Air of Authority: +X PRE, LIMITATIONS" I only mentioned it as a variant of Striking Appearance because Striking Appearance is simply limited PRE.

 

[to hidebound 5e GM] "Of course, in a 5e game, it would not be "Striking Appearance" - if I wanted that, I'd just buy Comeliness. Stupid 6e, ditching comeliness. I'm glad we decided to stick with 5e so we don't need to import that silly 6e construct!"

 

So how will your Drain actually work? Under 5e rules, IIRC, a person drained to 0 EGO was required to make an EGO roll to initiate any action of his own, and must follow all orders given to him unless he makes an EGO roll. So a target of your Air of Authority will act how, exactly? Can he initiate actions of his own with no EGO roll? Can he only do so if he is not in the process of following your instructions, perhaps (in which case he can't improvise when the plan you gave him does not come together), but can to take actions not related to your instructions? If one of your commands goes against one of his Psych Limitations, does he make an EGO roll based on his normal EGO, or the drained EGO applicable to you? What if your command is consistent with one of his Psych Lim's?

 

With no PRE, the character must roll to initiate any offensive action or remain in the presence of anything remotely threatening. A failed roll means he flees. So how will that work? No one you have spent any significant time with can initiate an attack against you. But what if he is confronted by a threat while carrying out your instructions? Can he take an offensive action against your enemy, while undertaking some task you have requested of him, without making a PRE roll? If you make a PRE attack, does it incidentally terrify him as well?

 

Will either approach make interaction skills easier to use? Well,

 

- Acting is opposed by INT.

- Animal Handler, Bribery, Bureaucratics, Conversation, High Society and Oratory are not opposed, although Oratory can enhance PRE attacks on large groups.

- Charm (Seduction in 5e), Interrogation and Persuasion are opposed by EGO.

 

So +1 with all interaction skills will net you a +1 bonus for all your interaction skills. Draining 5 EGO will net a -1 penalty to the other person's opposed roll for 3 of the 8 interaction skills, and Draining PRE and EGO will make your PRE attacks more effective, similar to raising your own PRE. I don't see either one making your Interaction skills any more effective than enhancing PRE, Limited or otherwise, would be.

 

It does not sound like this ability is going to be any easier to adjudicate than a form of Mind Control or limited PRE. I think the biggest challenge is not setting out the mechanics, but in you and your GM agreeing on the impact this ability (however constructed) will have in-game. If he is inclined to ignore social skills and PRE anyway, I don't think imposing disadvantages on the opponents' ability to resist social skills and PRE will be any more effective than enhancing your own PRE/social skills.

[Tasha]

IMHO the way to deal with this is to talk to the GM. Explain the power/Ability that you want your character to have. Show them 2 or 3 different versions and rank them by what you think would work best down to the version that kind of works. Discuss further which build the GM likes and/or if they have any changes they want to make to the power/ability. Talking to one another about the game can be very difficult for many people esp when there might be conflict. Hugh laid out what the best version is by far, but only your GM can decide what version works for their campaign. 

[Tasha]

BTW with the Foux Striking appearance build, it relies a bit on having the proper interaction skills to make it work better (ie Persuasion and Oratory). Both of those skills DO allow for long term effects.

[Surrealone]

Per post #42, above, I already spoke with the GM regarding all options discussed, so far -- and he made a choice.

[Hugh Neilson]

The issue isn't which models, but whether you and the GM have discussed the impact you expect this ability to have in-game. If you are envisioning building a network of loyal operatives, and he is envisioning a flavour power with limited or no impact on the big conflicts and challenges in the game, then there will be a problem regardless of the build mechanics selected.

[massey]

This is a GM problem, not a rules problem. We cannot help you with that.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would do it as mind control with the Explosion advantage and cumulative of course and 0 end. No range (the center of the AoE is on the character) and a set command of "I am in command here!" so those affected will defer to the character when they are in his presence long enough for the "air of command" to take effect. But when they leave the AoE, it begins to fade at the normal rate (which can be bought up of course)

[Surrealone]

Hugh,

If I was trying to build a network of followers, then I'd just buy Followers (like I should).  Air of Authority is intended to make those near the authority figure receptive to and/or accepting of his desires, commands.  It should fade when beyond the immediate vicinity of the authority figure, potentially at a reduced rate (perhaps 5/min) to allow for short, simple tasks to be carried out.

 

I'll work on the build this week when I have time.