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[Vondy]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

The first two or three novels of John Norman's "Gor" series were also obviously influenced by ERB, although later books in the series veered in a mysogenistic direction which I personally found disturbing.

 

 

Actually - the accusation commonly levelled against Norman (mysongyny) is inaccurate. His real name is John Frederick Lange, Jr., Ph.D. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Illinois and his dissertation was entitled In Defense Of Ethical Naturalism. The Gor books weren't a response to feminism, or the expression of mysogyny (as Hemmingways stuff often was). They were a fictional exploration of naturalism as a philosophy - and are commonly misunderstood. I never liked the Gor novels much, or the philosophy, but I think Norman gets a bad rap because of the timeframe and political climate the books were published in.

[gewing]

All I can really say is I enjoyed them up to the 4th book, but found elements disturbing. Never followed up from there. Priest Kings of Gor, iirc #4 was pretty good. Predictable, in some ways, but what do you expect.

 

I also sort of liked some of the "horseclans" books but got kind of tired of "Dirt farmers are psychotic religious fanatics who deserve to be wiped out" and " the descendents of the Hells Angels are honorable warriors who are everything the Dirt Farmers are not."

 

It has been a long time, but some of the books were interesting, iirc. I think I liked " A woman of the Horseclans" at least as well as any of the others. Thinking about it, I think it may have been the best of them by far. HMM.

 

 

Originally posted by D-Man

Actually - the accusation commonly levelled against Norman (mysongyny) is inaccurate. His real name is John Frederick Lange, Jr., Ph.D. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Illinois and his dissertation was entitled In Defense Of Ethical Naturalism. The Gor books weren't a response to feminism, or the expression of mysogyny (as Hemmingways stuff often was). They were a fictional exploration of naturalism as a philosophy - and are commonly misunderstood. I never liked the Gor novels much, or the philosophy, but I think Norman gets a bad rap because of the timeframe and political climate the books were published in.

[AlHazred]

I've been reading the Barsoom series myself lately, for completely unrelated reasons, and was struck by a number of things:

 

1) The Green Martians are the original Science Fiction warrior culture. Screw the Klingons, the Green Martians are MEAN!

 

2) John Carter is a great fighter, and an honorable human being, who is probably an immortal (something briefly touched on in the first and second books, but no thoroughly explored. Does it show up later?) His intelligence varies, but in many books he's as dumb as a box of hammers. I mean all the little stupidities in the third book alone equate to a man with an INT of 8 at the most. Fortunately, he has at least 6d6 of Luck to make up for it.

 

3) If you reread the technology through the "filter" of John Carter's low intelligence and scientific ignorance, much delicious gamer pseudoscience emerges to fill the cracks. Not that I'd change any of the names; I'd love to carry around a "Radium Pistol." And keeping in mind the state of general science education in the 1860s and later, the series really was Science Fiction.

 

4) Barsoom is eminently usable in the Hero System. I'd say, let's start with John Carter. I believe in the first book the farthest he jumps is a little more than 100 yards. Let's call it 50" and we have his maximum Noncombat Leaping. As I said, he gets at least 6d6 of Luck. He's got Psych Lims (Honorable Virginian Gentleman), and Hunteds out the wazoo. Anybody else?

[keithcurtis]

He has at LEAST 10 combat skill levels and another mess of 3pt. SL's with blades. In the later books, he would hold back drawing on someone for as long as possible, for he felt (and rightly so) that to do so was an automatic death sentence for his opponent. On Barsoom, quarter is neither asked nor given.

 

He has enough Ego Defense to qualify for Immunity (as described in FH) to telepathy. No one could ever read his mind. All Martians were telepathic, but they only seemed to have the ability when it was an important plot point.

 

Keith "the Jasoomian" Curtis

[gewing]

I read everything by ERB that I Could get at the library in about 5th grade.

 

 

Chessmen of mars freaked me out a bit.

 

The book with the place you couldn't leave, where the amoeba men lived pops into my head every time I hear "Hotel California."

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by gewing

IThe book with the place you couldn't leave, where the amoeba men lived pops into my head every time I hear "Hotel California."

 

Wasn't that a Carson of Venus novel?

 

And yes, Chessmen was probably the creepiest of the Mars books.

 

Keith "Made and played a Jetan board" Curtis

[chaos_engineer]

Originally posted by AlHazred

1) The Green Martians are the original Science Fiction warrior culture. Screw the Klingons, the Green Martians are MEAN!

 

word. check out this awesome Green Martian sculpture.

 

2) John Carter is a great fighter, and an honorable human being, who is probably an immortal (something briefly touched on in the first and second books, but no thoroughly explored. Does it show up later?)

 

yes, in the Prelude to Chessmen of Mars

 

4) Barsoom is eminently usable in the Hero System. I'd say, let's start with John Carter. I believe in the first book the farthest he jumps is a little more than 100 yards. Let's call it 50" and we have his maximum Noncombat Leaping.

 

would that be OIHID? after all, he can't jump that far when he's on Jasoom.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by chaos_engineer

word. check out this awesome Green Martian sculpture.

 

 

 

yes, in the Prelude to Chessmen of Mars

 

 

 

would that be OIHID? after all, he can't jump that far when he's on Jasoom.

 

Since he never really adventures anywhere he can't jump (Deimos and Jupiter he could jump even farther, and I discount the intro to Princess, since he dies), I wouldn't let him take the lim.

 

Geez, he hould have been able to long jump 50 yards on Earth! He's already superhuman.

 

Keith "Hated Ullyses S. Paxton" Curtis

[AlHazred]

I don't know that he has a high Ego Defense. There's a number of ways to do it.

 

For one thing, maybe the GM decided that his mind was a Human Mind, while everyone else on Mars has an Alien Mind. Not sure how to work it. Need to crack open Ultimate Mentalist to do more research. Mental Invisibility? Desolid, Only To Protect Versus Attack? Do we use the Absolute Effect Rule and give him a mess o' Mental Defense as Keith suggested?

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by AlHazred

I don't know that he has a high Ego Defense. There's a number of ways to do it.

 

For one thing, maybe the GM decided that his mind was a Human Mind, while everyone else on Mars has an Alien Mind. Not sure how to work it. Need to crack open Ultimate Mentalist to do more research. Mental Invisibility? Desolid, Only To Protect Versus Attack? Do we use the Absolute Effect Rule and give him a mess o' Mental Defense as Keith suggested?

 

The only problem with that is that he can read Martian minds. I think Martian telepathy would be better modeled as everyone sending thoughts all the time unless they actively will themselves not to. It seems more likely than that JC would suddenly be able to learn to read minds. It would be a point and logistical nightmare, though.

It would be far simpler just to give him the Mental Defense.

 

Also, in that vein, I would give him immense strength and define "10" as the Martian norm. I'ds say at least 35 STR. He was killing Tharks with a single blow of his fist. Also, just about any weapon would do x2 base DC in his hands, commensurate with the kind of Jasoomian whupass he would deal out.

 

Back on the subject of mental powers, Carson Napier learned all kinds of funky powers from Chand Kabi, that he only used in ONE story. It's kind of like Carson's player turned over his character sheet and said, "d'Oh! I forgot I spent points on those all that stuff!" I mean, he could have saved himself a ton of heartache if he had used them from book one.

 

Keith "Wanted a pal like Tars Tarkas in high school" Curtis

[chaos_engineer]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Back on the subject of mental powers, Carson Napier learned all kinds of funky powers from Chand Kabi, that he only used in ONE story. It's kind of like Carson's player turned over his character sheet and said, "d'Oh! I forgot I spent points on those all that stuff!" I mean, he could have saved himself a ton of heartache if he had used them from book one.

 

lol! and that series is like Pelucidar in that some of the books are terrible. IMO only the first two Venus books are readable. and even that's mitigated by the fact that in the first one Napier forms a secret society with the initials KKK. yikes! i'm usually willing to wince past ERB's cranky politics, but that's going too far.

[gewing]

I don't know, it was about 25 years ago...

 

Chessman was the one with the "spider like" things and their "mounts" wasn't it?

 

IIICCCCKKKK!!!!

 

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Wasn't that a Carson of Venus novel?

 

And yes, Chessmen was probably the creepiest of the Mars books.

 

Keith "Made and played a Jetan board" Curtis

[Lord Liaden]

I can understand why some folks would find the kaldanes and their rykor steeds from Chessman "icky," but they were one of the most original concepts to come out of the series, and a great example of Burroughs' fertile imagination.

[gewing]

Yes, but they were still ICKY!

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I can understand why some folks would find the kaldanes and their rykor steeds from Chessman "icky," but they were one of the most original concepts to come out of the series, and a great example of Burroughs' fertile imagination.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Kaldane write-up

 

From my Green Martian write-up you know that I, too, am a fan. I tried next to write up the kaldanes from "Chessman" but was stymied. They're pretty complicated even without their mounts and mental powers. Here's what I've got so far ...

 

Name: Kaldane

 

Val Char Cost

3 STR -7

26 DEX 48

15 CON 10

5 BODY -10

20 INT 10

20 EGO 20

20 PRE 10

2 COM -4

3 PD 2

3 ED

5 SPD 14

4 REC

30 END

15 STUN

 

Characteristic Rolls: STR: 10-, DEX: 14-, CON: 12-, INT: 13-, EGO: 13-, PER: 13-

Run: 4", Swim: 2", Jump: 1/2", Lift: 37

 

Cost Powers END/Roll

 

"Alien Physiology"

6 "Leathery Skin," Armor 2 PD/2ED

14 "Spidery Legs," Clinging 15 STR

5 Extra Limbs

32 Tunneling 4" through DEF 8 material

10 "Chelae," HKA 1/2D6 Bite

10 Life Support: Self-Contained Breathing

2 Life Support: Diminished Eating: Once Per Year

25 "Super Intellect" Multipower

5 Mind Control 6D6, +1/4 adv Telepathic, -1/2 limit Requires Eye Contact, 4 END

5 Telepathy 6D6, -1/2 limit Requires Eye Contact, 4 END

10 Mental Defense 14

 

Cost Skills, Talents, Perks Roll

 

3 Acrobatics 14-

3 Acting 13-

3 Animal Handler: Rykors 13-

3 Breakfall 14-

7 Bugging (Eavesdropping) 15-

3 Climbing 14-

7 Concealment 15-

3 Conversation 13-

5 Cramming

3 Scholar

5 Five Knowledge Skills at 11-

3 Oratory 13-

2 PS: Philosopher 11-

3 Riding 14-

3 Scientist

5 Five non-technical Science Skills at 11-

7 Stealth 16-

3 Survival (Underground) 13-

2 Familiar with Common Melee Weapons

9 Talent: Ambidexterous

3 Talent: Bump of Direction

5 Talent: Eidetic Memory

3 Talent: Lightning Calculator

4 Talent: Speed Reading

 

100+ Disadvantages

 

 

OCV: 9; DCV: 9; ECV: 7; Mental Def.: 14; Phases:

PD/rPD: 3/2 ; ED/rED: 3/2

 

Costs: Char.: 93 Disad.:

Powers: + 221 Base: + 100

Exp.: +

Total: = 314 Total: = 314

 

Source: Edgar Rice Burroughs, "The Chessmen of Mars," 1922

 

Background:

 

Tara of Helium, daughter of John Carter, discovered the kaldane civilization while escaping from an over-zealous suitor who had abducted her and carried her far from home.

 

And rykor

 

Powers and Abilities:

 

Disadvantages:

 

Height: cm (1' 2"), Weight: kg (8 lbs), Sex: Asexual, Race: Kaldane

 

Appearance:

 

Kaldanes are leathery, spherical, burrowing creatures about the size of a volleyball or basketball. They crawl on six spidery legs and have a pair of chelae for eating and fighting. They are blue-gray in color, have large, bulging, round eyes and tiny sphincter-like mouths. They also have vestigial nostril slits although they don't have to breathe. They can speak human languages but do so in a monotone since they lack a fully developed larynx and lungs for voice inflection. Like all Barsoomians, they enjoy draping themselves with jewelry.

 

Their rykor mounts are well-proportioned humanoid bodies with a mouth and rudimentary sensory organs where the head should be. Rykors are clothed in the shabbiest of loin cloths but have a saddle arrangement mounted on their necks and shoulders. They sometimes are equipped with a sword and scabbard but are incapable of using them (or of doing anything useful) unless a kaldane is aboard.

=========

Hero System write-up by Kevin Scrivner

[Susano]

Re: Barsoom gaming resources

 

Originally posted by chaos_engineer

here's a few Barsoom gaming resources i've found.

 

Kevin Scrivner's write-up of a Green Martian for Hero System 4th ed. -- but there don't seem to be any write-ups of John Carter. (are you listening, Surbrook? )

 

My books are packed in storage. I have 1-3 but won't have access for another 12 months (unless I undergo a dramtic job change).

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

The only problem with that is that he can read Martian minds. I think Martian telepathy would be better modeled as everyone sending thoughts all the time unless they actively will themselves not to. It seems more likely than that JC would suddenly be able to learn to read minds. It would be a point and logistical nightmare, though.

It would be far simpler just to give him the Mental Defense.

 

I don't know. If his powers are defined as working only against the Alien Class of minds, would that work? I mean, when he came back from Mars after the first book, he didn't make a living as the Amazing Randi or anything... It seems apparent to me that either his power doesn't work against Humans, or that they're an artifact of his Astral Travel method (or whatever that was)...

 

Anybody given any thought to the Red Martian cultural package?

[keithcurtis]

Maybe all Barsoomians need the Physical Limitation: Must make EGO vs EGO contest to avoid having mind read by anyone nearby. (Infrequently, Greatly) 10pts.

 

No one would have to buy any mental powers.

Then allow them to buy Skill levels only for EGO contest. JC doesn't have to buy the levels, because he doesn't have the Limitation.

 

I don't think it would be a Psych Lim because the ego roll doesn't mean they don't broadcast, just that they manage to keep it to a level that the reader can't detect.

 

I made it Infrequent because it is rarely mentioned unless it's a major plot devic-- eh point.

 

Keith "Kepin' it simple" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

The browser said it didn't accept the previous post...

[keithcurtis]

Deleted due to browser chicanery

[keithcurtis]

Spawns of Calots!

[AlHazred]

Don't know if I agree with Kevin's Green Martian writeup. The STR seems high, and I noticed some things missing from the Powers.

 

In A Princess of Mars Burroughs describes the Green Men as being fairly physicaly weak. He says: “While the Martians are immense, their bones are very large and they are muscled only in proportion to the gravitation which they must overcome. The result is that they are infinitely less agile and less powerful, in proportion to their weight, than an Earth man, and I doubt that were one of them suddenly to be transported to Earth he could lift his own weight from the ground; in fact, I am convinced that he could not do so…" This seems to me to indicate a STR of at most 14.

 

Secondly, I believe in The Gods of Mars, Burroughs establishes that most Martians are effectively immortal, going "up the river" when they reach 1000 as a strange religious ritual.

 

Third, the Green Men have "eyes [set] at the extreme sides of their heads a trifle above the center and protruded in such a manner that they could be directed either forward or back and also independently of each other, thus permitting this queer animal to look in any direction, or in two directions at once, without the necessity of turning the head." That would indicate Increased Arc of Perception for their visual senses.

 

Not that all this means I don't like the writeup, mind you. Just a few things the purist insisted on...

[keithcurtis]

I think it would be far easier to Just make John Carter stronger than to make every single Martian weaker, re-do all Strength Minima for weapons, reduce all appropriate defense and running and so forth.

 

Just treat Mars like the norm.

 

I mean, when the Warlord isn't around, there's not a clue that what you're reading isn't about ordinary (heroic) people. It's only when he arrives on the scene that the strength is noticeable.

 

Keith "Designing for the lazy GM" Curtis

[AlHazred]

Yeah, I know, but I'm already thinking about how to import Barsoom into various Crossworlds games I run... And when I stack up various characters against each other, I like to fit them as close as possible to the author's vision. Just my anal retentive, purist bastard thing...

 

I'm wondering what the stats on the Thoat are, as well as those Martian Radium guns. I'd assume most of the archaic weapons are pretty standard, except for those forty foot Green Man lances.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Martian meditations

 

Originally posted by AlHazred

Don't know if I agree with Kevin's Green Martian writeup. The STR seems high, and I noticed some things missing from the Powers.

 

In A Princess of Mars Burroughs describes the Green Men as being fairly physicaly weak. He says: “While the Martians are immense, their bones are very large and they are muscled only in proportion to the gravitation which they must overcome. The result is that they are infinitely less agile and less powerful, in proportion to their weight, than an Earth man, and I doubt that were one of them suddenly to be transported to Earth he could lift his own weight from the ground; in fact, I am convinced that he could not do so…" This seems to me to indicate a STR of at most 14.

 

Secondly, I believe in The Gods of Mars, Burroughs establishes that most Martians are effectively immortal, going "up the river" when they reach 1000 as a strange religious ritual.

 

Third, the Green Men have "eyes [set] at the extreme sides of their heads a trifle above the center and protruded in such a manner that they could be directed either forward or back and also independently of each other, thus permitting this queer animal to look in any direction, or in two directions at once, without the necessity of turning the head." That would indicate Increased Arc of Perception for their visual senses.

 

Not that all this means I don't like the writeup, mind you. Just a few things the purist insisted on...

 

No offense taken. However, I did factor in a couple of your concerns. The Green Martian's strength is 25 rather than the 35 STR that 18 feet worth of Growth would normally give a humanoid in Earth gravity. So he's strong enough to tussle with John Carter (who in previous Barsoom threads has been given a STR of up to 35) but not so strong that your more normal player-characters couldn't take him on. The 12 DEX for size also mitigates the Martian's STR somewhat.

 

Also, I did give him +2 on all Perception rolls for those huge eyes and mobile ear stalks.

 

You have a point on the longevity. On the other hand, if everyone on Mars lives to be 1,000 years old, why spend the points on it? It's the "normal" lifespan.

 

But what about the partial kaldane write-up? No one has commented, and I really wanted some input on how to finish the critter up.

 

The radium guns would be bulky, extra-long musket-like devices. My write-up gave them the No Range Modifier Advantage (like a laser) since Burroughs said they could target the horizon. However, he also gave them virtually unlimited ammo, which seems a bit too powerful to me. I mean, how do Martian warriors survive long enough to have those spectacular sword duels if their firearms have inexhaustable rounds and limitless range? They'd simply post spotters with telescopes and pick each other off at the first glimpse. My version is more like a musket or shotgun; you get one or two shots then have to stop to reload. Since the weapon is so long and bulky, a human-sized Red Martian soldier needs a tripod or some other sort of support to fire it effectively. Green Martians, however, are large and strong enough to simply pick up a captured radium gun and fire it like a carbine.

 

The 40-foot lances sound impressive (more Burroughsian hyberbole) but wouldn't necessarily do more damage than a terrestrial pike. They'd simply be effective at a longer range, and would be useless if an enemy slipped closer than the 40-yard-line.