Area of effect mental blast 6e

[Penthau]

I am having trouble imagining an area of effect mental blast that wouldn't require a roll to hit each target in the area. It feels odd that a OMCV of 3 would be able to hit a DMCV of 10 by just placing an area in a hex. The rules seem to support the autohit of targets in areas even if they are mental attacks. Am I remembering a rule from a previous edition or am I just going to be forcing the player to take the selective modifier? 

[Doc Democracy]

pretty much the same principle that a sonic grenade might hurt the ears of everyone within a physical area, a psychic grenade might jangle the brains of everyone within a set area - no need to target a particular mind or brain...

[Cantriped]

An AoE Mental Blast targets an area (DMCV 3), and damages every target in the area. You are "just ... forcing the player to take the selective modifier" (or perhaps the Nonselective modifier if they cannot exclude targets from the effect). Which depending upon the special effect of the attack might be appropriate, but it should also be priced appropriately as an Area of Effect (Selective/Nonselective) Mental Blast.

[Surrealone]

I have a GM that forces this very issue (must choose selective or nonselective on Mental AoE's ... but won't run with APG's Accurate Selective advantage) because he can't seem to wrap his brain around what Doc Democracy stated.  I don't agree with the call because I see it exactly as Doc Democracy does, but it's his game, so it's his rules.   It's not like it matters much, anyway, since most targets are DMCV 3, anyway ... meaning hitting the hex is just as easy/tough as hitting the targets.

 

That's what truly baffles me -- it's a lot of extra rolling for little, if any, change in outcome.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the point isn't whether it makes sense, its whether the power works this way in the rules.  If the power its self is odd, then maybe the build should reflect the concept, but it need not necessarily do so, simply because it feels strange to a GM.

[Manic Typist]

Ask your GM if he has ever seen or read any fiction in which a creature dies and emits a psychic deathcry that affects everyone in a significant radius around it.

 

That's how it works. You got a brain? You're in range? Prepare to grab your head and scream.

[bigdamnhero]

I think part of the problem is that while the distinction between DCV and PD/ED is easy for people to visualize, it's harder for people to envision the difference between DMCV and MD. I had this happen in my last campaign, where a player bought up his DMCV but not his MD and didn't understand why he kept getting his brain pan smacked around. I was eventually able to explain it to him in mechanical terms, but I'm not sure he ever got it conceptually.

[Manic Typist]

But.... it's exactly the same distinction!

[Hugh Neilson]

Sure. But it's much tougher for us to conceptualize. We've all dodged getting hit and been hit at some point in our lives. We have no frame of reference for mental combat.

 

"Your Mind Control cannot harm me - my Brain is like a shield of steel!" doesn't parse out all that well.

 

Can anyone articulate the difference between a high DMCV and high Mental Defense conceptually, rather than using game mechanics?

[Cantriped]

Can anyone articulate the difference between a high DMCV and high Mental Defense conceptually, rather than using game mechanics?

It is difficult because we have no real world examples of mental combat to draw from.

 

Lots of stories feature a "Mindscape" in which mental combat takes place, mindscapes usually have mutable or abstract environments, warped time, and mentalists often seem to have more traditional superpowers in the mindscape than they do in reality (such as flight and energy blasts). In mindscape-style mental combat DMCV and MD function much like DCV and PD/ED.

In a mindscape, DMCV might represent simply avoiding the enemies Mental Blast or Mind Control the same way you'd dodge an energy blast in real life, or it might represent manipulating the environment to create a blockade that deflects the attack, or an illusion of yourself that takes the hit instead of you.

In a mindscape, MD most often represents sheer mental toughness or mental force fields, allowing the target to resist or reduce the effects of mental attacks.

Granted, the mindscape-system works best in comics and graphic novels where you need to be able to show mental combat visually, and even then it's kind of a cop-out.

 

For a less cliché-ed attempt to articulate the concept:

DMCV represents a quality of mind which allows the character to deflect mental attacks that target them directly, much like a helmet might deflect a projectile.

MD represents a quality of mind which allows the character to absorb or weaken mental attacks that they were unable to deflect, much like padding might reduce damage from a collision.

[Deadman]

I guess I will admit to being the GM in question.  My take on it is that DMCV represents the target's willpower and I cannot see it being diminished because a character can envelop an area with his mental power.  That is why I require Selective or Non-Selective.  That means that each individual defends with his own DMCV and it is not represented by an "area" (and therefore DMCV 3).  To minimize the rolling I just have the Mentalist make one roll and apply the result to all of the targets in the AoE.

 

As for the power mentioned above, "Psychic Deathcry".  I figure this could easily be done by using Alternate Combat Value OMCV vs. DCV and then tacking on AoE.  Seems pretty easy to me.

 

The distinction needs to be better defined.  Not everything that applies to OCV/DCV should apply to OMCV/DMCV in my opinion.  If a character is grabbed is he also 1/2 DMCV?  In my opinion, No.  Why should an Entangled Character have 0 DMCV?  Did his ability to resist Mental attacks somehow diminish because he got hit with a Net Gun?

 

Sorry, I am Not Sorry that I don't just take the RAW as gospel.  I was accused of not reasoning from effect and frankly that is exactly the opposite of how I see it.  I am trying not to shoehorn in some game mechanic that doesn't make sense.  I would rather change the rule in my game.

 

Peace Out,

 

Deadman

[Doc Democracy]

I guess I will admit to being the GM in question.  My take on it is that DMCV represents the target's willpower and I cannot see it being diminished because a character can envelop an area with his mental power.

I appreciate where you are coming from but I think that this all stems from you assigning a special effect to a game mechanic.

 

DCMV actually represents a number used to determine whether a mental power affects a particular character. Just as how OCV does not simply represent the ability of a character to dodge an attack. The mechanic is there to enable us to assign a number.

 

It might be due to an ability to mask his mind, to stiffen its defences and repulse attacks, or deflect them, to absurd or dissipate its energies or extensive training in mental combat. Obviously some if that "could" be modelled with mental defence or other powers but they are just as easily modelled with DCMV. That is core to HERO.

 

Now, as GM, you are entitled to make whatever rule you want and to make a psychic death cry based on a physical combat value, you are entirely within your rights. Though, is strikes me you have just said that it would affect everyone the same, regardless of their mental abilities which, surely, gives against the principled argument of the area of effect on the mental power? :-)

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

It is difficult because we have no real world examples of mental combat to draw from.

Exactly

 

DMCV represents a quality of mind which allows the character to deflect mental attacks that target them directly, much like a helmet might deflect a projectile.

I think a helmet would normally be Defenses, not DCV, in a Hero game.

 

MD represents a quality of mind which allows the character to absorb or weaken mental attacks that they were unable to deflect, much like padding might reduce damage from a collision.

And here again, I could define this as DMCV - I absorb, rather than being affected, by the attack.

 

In fairness, though, I have seen "Muck Monsters" with high DCVs because hitting anything the attack does not just pass right through is difficult, and we are all familiar with how Combat Luck, rolling with or evading the strike, is purchased as defenses.

 

I guess I will admit to being the GM in question.  My take on it is that DMCV represents the target's willpower and I cannot see it being diminished because a character can envelop an area with his mental power.  That is why I require Selective or Non-Selective.  That means that each individual defends with his own DMCV and it is not represented by an "area" (and therefore DMCV 3).  To minimize the rolling I just have the Mentalist make one roll and apply the result to all of the targets in the AoE.

To me, that's not wrong. I find it much more difficult to envision a non-selective AoE mental attack than a physical one. But not impossible.

 

As for the power mentioned above, "Psychic Deathcry".  I figure this could easily be done by using Alternate Combat Value OMCV vs. DCV and then tacking on AoE.  Seems pretty easy to me.

But having accepted the possibility of an area effect psychic deathcry which hits all minds, regardless of DMCV, have we not accepted a mental attack which has an AoE? Why does attaching that special effect to DCV instead of DMCV make it different? Or, why can't the power the OP wants (an AoE that targets an area) also tack on AVACV - DCV to allow him the result he is seeking?

 

Actually, that looks like he is being a point whore, since ACV converting DMCV to DCV is a -1/4 limitation, and he is still using the same CV to target the same DCV of 3.

[Tom Cowan]

How about thinking it as ECM/ECCM?

DMCV is hiding\shifting\camo'ing you mind from a full on weapon lock. 

OMCV is the targeting and counter.

[Cantriped]

I guess I will admit to being the GM in question.  My take on it is that DMCV represents the target's willpower and I cannot see it being diminished because a character can envelop an area with his mental power.  That is why I require Selective or Non-Selective.  That means that each individual defends with his own DMCV and it is not represented by an "area" (and therefore DMCV 3).  To minimize the rolling I just have the Mentalist make one roll and apply the result to all of the targets in the AoE.

As long as they get the appropriate modifier value for being forced to take Selective/Nonselective, your house rule is entirely fair. However "Willpower" is more commonly a special effect of Mental Defense or a high EGO (which is explicitly described as willpower by CC/FHC). I prefer to think of DMCV as "mental elusiveness", its not really possible to elude something that is all around you.

 

As for the power mentioned above, "Psychic Deathcry".  I figure this could easily be done by using Alternate Combat Value OMCV vs. DCV and then tacking on AoE.  Seems pretty easy to me.

OMCV Vs. DCV isn't really an appropriate modifier for an Area of Effect Mental Attack, because whether you target DCV 3 or DMCV 3 is largely irrelevant. You're still targeting a flat CV instead of a character's CV. A limitation that doesn't limit a power isn't worth points.

 

The distinction needs to be better defined.  Not everything that applies to OCV/DCV should apply to OMCV/DMCV in my opinion.  If a character is grabbed is he also 1/2 DMCV?  In my opinion, No.  Why should an Entangled Character have 0 DMCV?  Did his ability to resist Mental attacks somehow diminish because he got hit with a Net Gun?

Actually, CC/FHC explicitly states that most Combat Modifiers don't apply to Mental Combat, and I would extend that to Grabs and Entangles (although they aren't explicitly listed as Combat Modifiers). I might rule that combat modifiers imposed on the victim by Grabs (using Telekinesis) and Entangles with Works Against EGO, Not STR do apply to MCVs.

[Cantriped]

I think a helmet would normally be Defenses, not DCV, in a Hero game..

You aren't wrong, but realistically rigid body armor should provide some +DCV because it can actually deflect attacks entirely.

[Penthau]

As long as they get the appropriate modifier value for being forced to take Selective/Nonselective, your house rule is entirely fair. However "Willpower" is more commonly a special effect of Mental Defense or a high EGO (which is explicitly described as willpower by CC/FHC). I prefer to think of DMCV as "mental elusiveness", its not really possible to elude something that is all around you.

 

OMCV Vs. DCV isn't really an appropriate modifier for an Area of Effect Mental Attack, because whether you target DCV 3 or DMCV 3 is largely irrelevant. You're still targeting a flat CV instead of a character's CV. A limitation that doesn't limit a power isn't worth points.

 

Actually, CC/FHC explicitly states that most Combat Modifiers don't apply to Mental Combat, and I would extend that to Grabs and Entangles (although they aren't explicitly listed as Combat Modifiers). I might rule that combat modifiers imposed on the victim by Grabs (using Telekinesis) and Entangles with Works Against EGO, Not STR do apply to MCVs.

 

OK, this helps. If DMCV is like mentally avoiding leaving an opening that lets the attack slip through, then an area of effect would get around this. I was visualizing DMCV as a mental toughness, gritting your teeth against the attack, but that would be EGO or MD, it seems. Thanks.

[Hugh Neilson]

As long as they get the appropriate modifier value for being forced to take Selective/Nonselective, your house rule is entirely fair. However "Willpower" is more commonly a special effect of Mental Defense or a high EGO (which is explicitly described as willpower by CC/FHC). I prefer to think of DMCV as "mental elusiveness", its not really possible to elude something that is all around you.

It bears noting that, until 6th Ed, that high willpower directly enhanced ECV. 

 

You aren't wrong, but realistically rigid body armor should provide some +DCV because it can actually deflect attacks entirely.[

So d20 Armor Class isn't all bad and segregating CV from defenses isn't all good?

 

As I think on it, what a hassle.

 

"What's your DCV?"

 

"My head DCV, my arm DCV, my torso DCV or my leg DCV?"

 

 

OK, this helps. If DMCV is like mentally avoiding leaving an opening that lets the attack slip through, then an area of effect would get around this. I was visualizing DMCV as a mental toughness, gritting your teeth against the attack, but that would be EGO or MD, it seems. Thanks.

I think, like everything else in Hero, one should avoid rigidly defining the SFX of DMCV, Ego and Mental Defense.

[bigdamnhero]

I guess I will admit to being the GM in question.  My take on it is that DMCV represents the target's willpower and I cannot see it being diminished because a character can envelop an area with his mental power.  That is why I require Selective or Non-Selective.  That means that each individual defends with his own DMCV and it is not represented by an "area" (and therefore DMCV 3).  To minimize the rolling I just have the Mentalist make one roll and apply the result to all of the targets in the AoE.

I could argue either side of the question, but that's a perfectly valid interpretation. Like I said above, it depends on how you visualize DMCV working. If it's more about strength of mind, then your approach makes sense. If you see it more as mental flexibility or camouflage or something, then the idea that a high-DMCV character might be hard to target individually, but might still be susceptible to "wide-band broadcast" attacks. [shrug] Since mental powers don't actually exist, I figure you can define it however works best for your game.

 

IThe distinction needs to be better defined.  Not everything that applies to OCV/DCV should apply to OMCV/DMCV in my opinion.  If a character is grabbed is he also 1/2 DMCV?  In my opinion, No.  Why should an Entangled Character have 0 DMCV?  Did his ability to resist Mental attacks somehow diminish because he got hit with a Net Gun?

There's nothing in the rules for either Grab or Entangle that says or implies that they reduce DMCV; they both specifically say DCV. So I'm not where you got that impression.

 

(As a sidebar: the rules for Mental Entangle don't actually say the target is at 1/2 DMCV either, although I've always assumed that?)

 

It bears noting that, until 6th Ed, that high willpower directly enhanced ECV.

One of the problems I had with mental powers in previous editions is that while physical combat involved multiple stats - DEX to hit, STR to damage, PD/ED to defend, etc - mental combat was almost entirely driven by EGO. When I ran a mentalist-heavy game (started in 4ed, finished in 5ed), we came up with a house rule that used INT for ~DEX and EGO for ~STR. Worked pretty well for that campaign. Breaking the direct link between EGO & MCV in 6ed alleviated that problem to some extent, but I still feel like INT should play more of a role in mental combat.

[Cantriped]

So d20 Armor Class isn't all bad and segregating CV from defenses isn't all good?

 

As I think on it, what a hassle.

 

"What's your DCV?"

 

"My head DCV, my arm DCV, my torso DCV or my leg DCV?"

Yes, but at no point did I suggest "Sectional DCV". How would that even work! You typically roll Hit Locations after Rolling To Hit.

Besides, the chance of deflecting a blow outright should be pretty minimal; even a full suit of Plate Mail should only give +2 or +3 DCV (and probably only against Slashing and Piercing Weapons). For partial suits you'd just assign them an appropriate lesser value (or an activation roll as per Armor Coverage in campaigns tat don't use Hit Locations).

[Durzan Malakim]

As I understand it, the defensive combat values affect targeting. In physical combat you either hit or miss. In mental combat you either find your target or you don't. The analogy that works for me is that it's like radar trying to find a stealth craft. Does the radar pulse return a signal for you to direct your attack or do the stealth features absorb and deflect your signal giving you nothing but noise?

 

Defenses are are about mitigating damage or effect. A bullet-proof-vest doesn't prevent you from being shot, it distributes the kinetic force over a larger area when you are shot. So a mental-proof-helmet doesn't have to prevent Menton from targeting you with a mental command; it can instead reduce the impact of that command. The special effect of the mitigation may vary, but the game effect remains the same: reduced mental effect.

 

So an AoE mental attack is one where the targeting lock is somehow automatic or much easier within the defined area. Why this attack works that way is left up to you. Perhaps it exploits hand-wave-plot-particle-duality or is a side-effect of tachyon-techno-babble-alia.