Seeing through the Veil

[L. Marcus]

I´m at long last trying to write up a magic system for my very own fantasy campaign, and I´ve hit a little snagette. Being aware of my status as a total n00b at Hero, I turn to you, the-finest-minds-of-Herodom and sundry.

 

The basis of working magic in my little world is through summoning and negotiating with spirits of various kinds, ranging from the guardian of a candlelight to the very foundation of the world, Gnome himself. These spirits live in another world, and magi and spirits meet in the Between, overlaying and just a shadow away from either world. The spirits travel between their world and the Between rather easily (and on to the mundane world with a bit more effort), but all magi except the most powerful has to "stay put", as it were.

 

Now, the tricky part is: How do they communicate from the mundane world to the Between? The advantage Transdimensional (+1/2) fits the bill, but how to use it? Should I give the mages Transdimensional Sight and Hearing? What would that cost? Or should I build a new sense with Detect the Between? How exactly would that work?

 

I´d be happy for any insights and all input will be considered. I think.

[Vondy]

I would just tack it onto their sight and hearing. Build an undressed +1/2 advantage on the base points of 35 points (for the two senses).

 

Cost 17.5 points

 

Another way would be to build a detect as a sense and call it "astral awareness" or some such, but considering that it would be more expensive than the immodest advantage...

[Monolith]

I would not even worry about Transdimentional communication. That is really nothing more than the SFX of how the magic works. If the magic is really a negotiation between the spellcaster and the spirit I would look at putting on a similar limitation to the spell as Priests have. Something along the lines of Spirit Granted: -1/2. This would represent the fact that the spirit must allow the mage to use the power. If the spirit does not agree the magic fails, or possibly has some other effect.

 

The Limitation would also represent that the mage has the ability to communicate with the spirit. So if the mage were in field or place which hampered communication the Spirit might not be able to "hear" the mage. An example of this might be a Woods Spirit not hearing a mage who is deep within a mountain, the domain of the Mountain Spirit, the Wood Spirit's enemy.

 

The nature of how the Limitation is used should be dictated by the GM. For example, if the Fire and Water Spirits are considered great friends then the Water Spirit would not allow the mage to cast a spell which might extinguish a fire. So in this case the GM will not allow the spell to take effect.

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by Monolith

I would not even worry about Transdimentional communication. That is really nothing more than the SFX of how the magic works. If the magic is really a negotiation between the spellcaster and the spirit I would look at putting on a similar limitation to the spell as Priests have. Something along the lines of Spirit Granted: -1/2. This would represent the fact that the spirit must allow the mage to use the power. If the spirit does not agree the magic fails, or possibly has some other effect.

 

Nice suggestion, but this would violate the flavour I had in mind. It works like this: Mage meditates/conducts ritual to attract the attention of the wanted spirit, who according to a PsychLim Code has to answer. They would parley, and if they agree the spirit will cast the desired spell for the magi.

 

The power would look something like this: Call Spirit: Summon 200-point Spirit (40 Active Points); Extra time (20 minutes; -2 1/2), Requires Call Spirit Roll (-1/2); 10 Real Points.

 

The actual meeting with the spirit would be roleplayed. As I said, it´s a flava thang . . .

[L. Marcus]

Oo oo! Forgot! Add a Concentrate disad or a Incantation/Gestures combo, depending on schooling . . .

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by D-Man

I would just tack it onto their sight and hearing. Build an undressed +1/2 advantage on the base points of 35 points (for the two senses).

 

Cost 17.5 points.

 

This sounds about right, but where did you find the numbers? I´ve only got fRED, is it in there? *hope hope*

[Monolith]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

This sounds about right, but where did you find the numbers? I´ve only got fRED, is it in there? *hope hope*

Sense Costs are listed in FREd on pages 227-228. In this case D-Man is slight incorrect as Sight is considered a 25 point ability and Hearing is considered a 20 point ability. So the total from the Advantage would be 22 points, not 17 points.

[L. Marcus]

Thanks many bunches, guys, I think I´ve got what I need! Now to put it all together . . . And to write up some spirits!

 

Wow. Things looks good right now . . .

[trechriron]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

Nice suggestion, but this would violate the flavour I had in mind. It works like this: Mage meditates/conducts ritual to attract the attention of the wanted spirit, who according to a PsychLim Code has to answer. They would parley, and if they agree the spirit will cast the desired spell for the magi.

 

The power would look something like this: Call Spirit: Summon 200-point Spirit (40 Active Points); Extra time (20 minutes; -2 1/2), Requires Call Spirit Roll (-1/2); 10 Real Points.

 

The actual meeting with the spirit would be roleplayed. As I said, it´s a flava thang . . .

 

How are you going to do the actual spells?

 

Do the spirits grant the power or simply hinder/enhance the spell?

 

What tie in does your summon have with the spells?

 

Does the spirit actually cast the spell?

 

You might consider a required END reserve that is only filled by spirit grantors and cannot be recharged by the caster. Then limit all spells to only draw from this special END reserve. Or perhaps the roll will simply be modified by the success of the spirit negotiation?

 

I still think that the flavor “thang†could still be explained in the actual spell. I think Monolith’s suggestion was right on. If communing with these spirits is a component of actually casting and powering the spell it would really be best to make it the SFX with limitations or modifiers to the spell. You could also include summoning as a power to create pacts and the like and perhaps require a regular communing with spirits to keep them in the loop and happy (something similar to the people of Elric’s approach).

 

Do you own the Fantasy Hero book? You may find some really fantastic ideas in there and the Grimoire as well.

 

It is all a matter of opinion of course, but the how and where are better quantified descriptively. Adjudicating the effects are best quantified mechanically. If the spell comes from the Gods or from internal energy gathering or from a letter carrier it should only matter in the descriptive context. If you let the mechanics of the game define your flavor then you are going to run into a plethora of problems in a generic effects based system, IMO.

 

Just my two cents…

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by trechriron

How are you going to do the actual spells?

 

Probably through an appropriate VPP, like a water-themed one for a river spirit, a fire one for a forest fire, a martial one for a spirit of an old battlefield . . . These will most probably be ballpark powers , as the players will probably think of more spirits than I could possibly prepare in advance . . . But such is the nature of the game, I suppose.

 

Do the spirits grant the power or simply hinder/enhance the spell?

 

What tie in does your summon have with the spells?

 

Does the spirit actually cast the spell?

 

The spirit actually casts the spell, if the mage has "made nice" enough . . .

 

You might consider a required END reserve that is only filled by spirit grantors and cannot be recharged by the caster. Then limit all spells to only draw from this special END reserve. Or perhaps the roll will simply be modified by the success of the spirit negotiation?

 

My thinking is that the Call Spirit roll will act as a Complementary Skill to the mages PRE roll in an PRE vs. EGO contest. If the mage wins, the spirit casts the spell. If the spirit wins, it´ll make a bored face and vanish. A really bad loss on the mage´s part will result in the enimosity of the spirit . . . Bad tidings.

 

I still think that the flavor “thang†could still be explained in the actual spell. I think Monolith’s suggestion was right on. If communing with these spirits is a component of actually casting and powering the spell it would really be best to make it the SFX with limitations or modifiers to the spell. You could also include summoning as a power to create pacts and the like and perhaps require a regular communing with spirits to keep them in the loop and happy (something similar to the people of Elric’s approach).

 

There is just the one spell, or rather power, of Call Spirit. I´m concerned with making the spirits real to the players, rather than just a dry, on-the-paper justification of their powers. That sweet flava . . .

 

Do you own the Fantasy Hero book? You may find some really fantastic ideas in there and the Grimoire as well.

 

Oh, dear sir, it´s on the top of my priorities, just after getting the last Christmas gifts wrapped and getting enough to eat the rest of the month.

 

It is all a matter of opinion of course, but the how and where are better quantified descriptively. Adjudicating the effects are best quantified mechanically. If the spell comes from the Gods or from internal energy gathering or from a letter carrier it should only matter in the descriptive context. If you let the mechanics of the game define your flavor then you are going to run into a plethora of problems in a generic effects based system, IMO.

 

I see it rather more like getting the rules to support the feelings I seek in a game . . . But what the heck, the guys will probably just use this system to burn things; they generally do, bless their little, teeny-tiny, microscopic black hearts.

 

Just my two cents…

 

All advice is appreciated! Thanks!

[trechriron]

That sounds cool. It is very Elric, and Shamanic, and it has loads of "flava". I like the idea that the character is negotiating with the spirit to achieve some desired effect. It also sets up some really interesting roleplaying opportunities between the characters and the spirits. The idea of failed negotiations having the potential to lead to consequences from the angered spirit is dripping with "flava"

 

I was curious and I appreciate your information. It is certainly not a standard approach to spell casting but is super-creative!!

[L. Marcus]

Thanks for the kind words, I´m feeling lovely and warm all over . . .

 

This little piece on magic was inspired by the japanese shinto priests, the kaminushi or masters of spirits/gods. The spirits ended up feeling like a cross between kami and the Sidhe . . .

 

Actually, it just struck me that this looks kinda like the dweomer system from Katharine Kerrs Deverry books . . .

[Dust Raven]

Two things:

 

First, if you are doing it using Summon, then you don't need Transdimensional or anything else to "reach" the spirit world, it's all built into the Summon Power. If you'd like a bit more flavor, you can have your mages buy Detect Spirit, and have Creature Must Inhabit Local on the Summon.

 

Second: So you magic system doesn't allow for things like Fireballs and Magic Missiles? If a group of adventurers is suddenly ambushed by orcs, I doubt that the mage will make a target of himself trying to ask a spirit for help, and even if he does, and dosn't get killed trying, the fight's likely to be over before he's done making his deal with the spirit. So what would mages of this type do in such a situation?

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

First, if you are doing it using Summon, then you don't need Transdimensional or anything else to "reach" the spirit world, it's all built into the Summon Power. If you'd like a bit more flavor, you can have your mages buy Detect Spirit, and have Creature Must Inhabit Local on the Summon.

 

Yes, this would also be a valid way of doing it, but the Transdimensional Senses just fits the cosmology of the world better. By the way, "spirit" might be a misnomer, but I can´t find another word that fits. The entities are not noncorporeal minds floating around, but have a body of sorts and live in an Otherworld. As I said, they remind me of the Sidhe, at least as they appear in GURPS Celtic Myth.

 

Second: So you magic system doesn't allow for things like Fireballs and Magic Missiles? If a group of adventurers is suddenly ambushed by orcs, I doubt that the mage will make a target of himself trying to ask a spirit for help, and even if he does, and dosn't get killed trying, the fight's likely to be over before he's done making his deal with the spirit. So what would mages of this type do in such a situation?

 

Strength of spirit! Limited mental attack powers, like a low-powered EGO Attack. Nothing spectacular, but a competent mage would at least be able to defend him/herself.

 

Plus, it never hurts to be owed favors by powerful spirits . . .

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

Strength of spirit! Limited mental attack powers, like a low-powered EGO Attack. Nothing spectacular, but a competent mage would at least be able to defend him/herself.

 

Plus, it never hurts to be owed favors by powerful spirits . . .

 

This could never be done using Summon. For out of combat spells and the like, it would be fine, but in combat the ritual of summoning and parleying would either get the mage killed or take too long. Even if you ruled that the actual parley takes no time, role-playing it does. In these cases, it may be best if you allow the mages a few spells where the SFX is that they quickly ask a spirit to do something specific (like an EGO Attack or Telekinesis). You could have it Require A Skill Roll and have the skill be Persuasion or a specific skill related to parleying with spirits. It all happens in a single Phase, and there isn't a need to role-play it out more than the mage asking a spirit to do something (Incantations).

[L. Marcus]

Right. The EGO Attack would be resting solely with the magician, and it would look something like this: Mind Strike: 3d6 EGO Attack; 30 Active Points; Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantation (-1/4), Requires Mind Strike Roll (-1/2); 9 Real Points.

 

I´m concidering letting the magician have access to some other mental magic, like Telepathy and Mind Link, but these wouldn´t be accessible to beginners. This campaign is low-fantasy and, actually, low-magic (most folks have seen some magic, but not even one in one thousand people would be able to Call a Spirit), so there will be no Power Frameworks.

[zornwil]

Hey, L. Marcus, do you have a website where you'll be posting your various campaign/world notes and house rules?

[L. Marcus]

Alas, that would be one of my pet unbegun projects, of which there are now so many, they have started to multiply all by themselves. I´ll have to think of investing in a cage of some sort . . .

[L. Marcus]

For those of you that are interrested, heres a sample character:

Arwid, Spirit Adept.

 

Value Char Cost Roll Notes

 

10 STR 0 11- Lift 100 kg; HTH 2d6 [2]

14 DEX 12 12- OCV: 5/DCV: 5

13 CON 6 12-

10 BODY 0 11-

18 INT 8 13- PER Roll: 13-

20 EGO 20 13- ECV: 7

20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6

10 COM 0 11-

 

4 PD 2

4 ED 1

3 SPD 6 Phases: 4, 8, 12

5 REC 0

26 END 0

22 STUN 0

 

Total Characteristic Cost: 65

 

Movement: Running: 6"/12", Swimming: 2"/4", Leaping: 0.5"/1"/2"

 

Cost Power

 

7 Call Spirit of Place: Summon 150-point Spirit, Any Location Spirit (+1/4); 37 APts; Extra Time (20 minutes; -2 1/2), Concentrate (0 DCV; -1/2), Requires Call Spirit Roll (-1/2), Summoned Spirit Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2) [4]

22 Inner Eye: Naked Transdimesional (The Between; +1/2) On Sight And Hearing (45 APts)

11 Mind Strike: 2 1/2d6 EGO Attack; 25 APts; Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires Mind Strike Roll (-1/2) [2]

 

Cost Skill

 

1 WF: Staffs

1 TF: Equines

 

1 Language: Common (Native, Literate)

1 Language: High Tongue (Fluent Conversation, Literate)

1 Language: Old Imperial (Basic Conversation, Literate)

 

3 Call Spirit (EGO) 13-

3 Mind Strike (EGO) 13-

 

2 Survival: Temperate/Subtropical Group 13-

3 Seduction 13-

3 PS: Spirit Master (INT) 13-

3 Persuasion 13-

3 Healing 13-

3 Oratory 13-

3 KS: Spirits 14-

1 AK: Deep Cove Principality 8-

1 CK: Deep Cove 8-

1 High Society 8-

3 Conversation 13-

1 Bureaucratics 8-

3 Trading 13-

 

5 The Merchant Obedai, Old Friend Of Master´s: Contact 11- (Very Useful Skills And Resources, Significant Own Contacts, Good Relationship)

 

Total Skills & Powers Cost: 85

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

75+ Disadvantages

 

5 Spirit Master: Distinctive Feature (Not Concealable, Detectable Only By Inner Eye)

15 Lena, Obedai´s Daughter: DNPC 11- (Normal)

20 Hunted By the Brotherhood of the Cleansing 8- (Mo Power, Harshly Punish/Kill)

20 Code Against Killing Talking Beings: PsychLim (Common, Total)

10 Stubborn: PsychLim (Common, Moderate)

5 Something Always Gets in the Way: 1d6 Unluck

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Background/History: Born in a town along the coast north of Deep Cove by poor fisherfolk, his talents were discovered at the age of seven by the local Spirit Master, Uther. Being as he was the fourth child of five, his parents had no objections towards letting Arwid become Uther´s disciple in learning the ways of the spirits.

 

The year he reached the age of seventeen, Arwid´s master declared him worthy the rank of Adept and sent him on a journey into the world. More specifically, to Deep Cove and Uther´s old friend Obedai the Merchant, who had agreed to help further Arwid´s education through his extensive contact net throughout the capital.

 

Unfortunately, on his way to the city, Arwid was marked by the Cleansers, a clandestine group of fanatics who see Spirit Masters as anathema, as something utterly unholy. One of them made an attempt on Arwid´s life, but he escaped by the skin of his teeth. Wounded, he was helped to Obedai, and the trader, at his own expense, sent for one of the Holy Mother´s healers that nursed Arwid back to full health.

 

Now, three months after his arrival, he has gotten to know the city a little bit, and he´s gotten a bit more polished appearance. He´s gotten to know Lena, Uther´s fifteen year old, headstrong daughter, too, and a mutual liking has developed that will, in all probability, deepen into something stronger.

 

Personality/Motivation: A cheerful lad, always eager to learn new things and deepen his learning on things that he already knows. Pleasant manners in a rural way, but with a stubborn streak.

 

Quote: "I didn´t pick a fight! He just misunderstood me!"

 

Powers/Tactics: When in trouble, Arwid will use his quarterstaff or a club to parry, and use his Mind Strike in the offensive.

 

Appearance: Average looks, long brown straight hair in the ubiquitous ponytail, green eyes that turn blue when he´s angry. Tall (6' 2"), with a lean, almost skinny frame. Dresses in a white linnen shirt under a brown tunic, with brown trousers and sandals.

[L. Marcus]

Okay, that post totally looked like utter, utter crap, but I´m too tired to care . . .

 

I´ll try to do a sample spirit tomorrow. Better luck, and all.

[Kristopher]

On the topic of having a few spells reliably available without lengthy negotiations: borrowing a bit from Werewolf *, and other sources, you could have objects imbued with certain powers by the spirits, in exchange for favors, or after being forced into doing so. The simple, everyday effects that the character needs instant access to. A staff that does more damage than normal, and can block far more powerful hits than normal. An object that heals wounds. Whatever you feel is appropriate for the setting and atmosphere you're trying to establish.

 

 

* insert standard disclaimer about how yes, I know how some people think very little of White Wolf's games and those who play them, blah blah blah...

[trechriron]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

Okay, that post totally looked like utter, utter crap, but I´m too tired to care . . .

 

I´ll try to do a sample spirit tomorrow. Better luck, and all.

 

I think it looks fine. People should not expect printer quality design/layout in a fourm. It was easy to read and understand, don't be so hard on yourself!

[trechriron]

BTW - the history of that character is top notch, your setting looks intriguing to say the least. You are certainly a creative chap, if I don't say so myself.

[Dust Raven]

What he said...

 

...but because I'm OCD, I'm compelled to mention that the Spirit Adept doesn't have the Call Spirit or Mind Strike skill, both of which his spells require him to make rolls on.

[Farkling]

For the record, most low fantasy worlds (Conan, Recluce, Lankhmar) do not HAVE combat magic, and them that do are experienced adepts.

 

Personally, I like the fetish idea from the White Wolves...binding a spirit to an item...it performs some task steadily in exchange for travel, senses, experience, offerings. Maiking a neat little house for the spirit to live in so it wants to join and travel with the adept...kind of like a familiar, except a special effect.

 

Experienced negotiaters could even convince these minor spirits "do not confront me on pain of dissolution, destruction of your house or your friend."