Ron Edwards Discusses Early Champions

[zslane]

FH1e is a complete game.  It includes...

What used to be separate games for separate genres is now Champions with a coat of paint and some switches flipped.  The comparisons between HERO and GURPS that Ron Edwards made are spot on.  

 

What you're really talking about there is merely a consequence of packaging. And the practice of putting the base mechanics and the genre material into a single volume became a problem after a while. Hero Games realized they were wasting nearly half of every new "game" with virtually identical rules material, and players were resenting the fact that they were being forced (again and again) to pay for rules they already had. This prompted Hero Games to take the logical step of putting the system rules into its own volume and putting the genre specific stuff in their own books.

 

It was the natural evolution of the realization that all those games were really the same thing, just with tweaks for genre. The real distinctions would come from the campaign setting, not the genre guidance material. But as a concession to tradition, the first 4e product released put the system rules and the (superhero) genre material under one cover, "just like the old days". It was a packaging move that helped Champions players (who were the bulk of the customer base) envision a path of least resistance to the new architecture.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that all editions of Hero Games products were essentially just Champions with a coat of paint and some switches flipped. The only real difference was that in the 4e era (and beyond), they had many more pages available to devote to the genre-specific tweaks (that coat of paint and set of switch settings) since the system rules were neatly tucked away in its own book and never needed to be reproduced in the genre-based products. It's the same thing just presented and packaged slightly differently.

 

And like I said before, I truly believe the new structure would have been adopted even had GURPS never existed. So what Ron Edwards is pointing out is merely a coincidence of synchronicity, not a link of causality.

[Christopher R Taylor]

players were resenting the fact that they were being forced (again and again) to pay for rules they already had.

 

 

This was not my experience, or memory.  And since the "rules they already had" were slightly different for each book (as Chris Goodwin notes) that wasn't even the case.  People liked how those books worked, its just cleaner to have one unified system you put out with the official rules and how they work, then genre books for how the apply in different genre.

 

The missing piece of the puzzle here isn't genre books, its campaigns that GMs can pick up and use.  As I've said over and over here, probably to the annoyance of everyone.  Hero has been great at putting out the basic tools, now its time to put out finished product using those tools.  That's starting to happen and I hope not too late.

[Chris Goodwin]

But that doesn't change the fact that all editions of Hero Games products were essentially just Champions with a coat of paint and some switches flipped. The only real difference was that in the 4e era (and beyond), they had many more pages available to devote to the genre-specific tweaks (that coat of paint and set of switch settings) since the system rules were neatly tucked away in its own book and never needed to be reproduced in the genre-based products. It's the same thing just presented and packaged slightly differently.

 

Not in my experience, across three of the five standalone games, through a large number of games -- some of which were one or a few sessions, some of which lasted two years, and which ran on average every one to two weeks.  Evidently, your experience differs; I'm curious as to how your play of these games leads you to this conclusion.

[zslane]

This was not my experience, or memory.  And since the "rules they already had" were slightly different for each book (as Chris Goodwin notes) that wasn't even the case.  People liked how those books worked, its just cleaner to have one unified system you put out with the official rules and how they work, then genre books for how the apply in different genre.

 

The missing piece of the puzzle here isn't genre books, its campaigns that GMs can pick up and use.  As I've said over and over here, probably to the annoyance of everyone.  Hero has been great at putting out the basic tools, now its time to put out finished product using those tools.  That's starting to happen and I hope not too late.

 

I agree with you on point two. The missing piece has always been campaign settings that could be turned into enduring product lines. MHI is the closest they've come (other than Champions Universe, I suppose), and even that is kind of hidden in the margins of our hobby.

 

But as for point one, people did not like the way the game books were structured once there was more than one of them (and more on the way, like Star Hero). It made far more sense to say, "Here are the base rules," (in this system book over here), and, "Here are the changes and additions needed for a bland campaign," (in this genre book over here), rather than putting them together into a single book and pretending like the core system rules were dramatically different from genre to genre.

 

The old 2e/3e structure was convenient if [a] you didn't have Champions already, and you were only ever intending to play that one genre variant. But that didn't describe hardly any of the Hero System player base. In fact, most players at that time were more interested in cross-genre play than just a single non-superhero genre, and so providing the core system in a single volume was an even more obvious direction to take.

[Christopher R Taylor]

But as for point one, people did not like the way the game books were structured once there was more than one of them

 

 

Well you assert that but I never met anyone who cared and sales didn't seem to suffer for it.

[zslane]

Fantasy Hero had decent sales figures because medieval fantasy was king of the genre jungle, and every publisher at the time knew that a fantasy line was going to do guaranteed business (to a point, obviously). Fantasy Hero succeeded (to the extent that it did) despite all its redundant material simply because it was feeding an insatiable hunger for the genre. Justice Inc., which was arguably a much better "game", sold poorly on the other hand simply due to the limited appeal of its "genre". Sales figures alone can't always tell us what Hero Games did well and what they did poorly from a design and production standpoint.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sales figures alone can't always tell us what Hero Games did well and what they did poorly from a design and production standpoint.

 

While true, that's the only hard data we have on what people thought about the products.  I could share anecdotes all day and you can give your gut instinct but neither really makes the case.

 

[mrinku]

I think some people may be missing the elephant in the room which is that 2017 is NOT 1985.

 

Back then, genre books and universal systems were cutting edge stuff. You largely received your community contact through magazine subscriptions... SOME people might have been active on early bulletin boards, but today's switched on, connected space just did not exist.

 

Video games came fairly close to killing off PnP gaming in the 90's (just start counting off the major publishers that fell by the wayside). Card games played a part in that, too. The 00's brought us MMORPGs. Multiplayer gaming in the 21st century basically means team shooters and party brawlers, not character sheets and rolling dice.

 

It's coming back a little. My son (21) who I always struggled to get interested in anything that wasn't Nintendo or Team Fortress 2 has gotten into Pathfinder at University and plays a bit of that both face to face and by social media. Our old MMORPG group is playing Space:1889 via Skype on Tuesday nights and I'm lined up to run Champions 6e after that campaign.

 

But.

 

I look at the giant 6e books that add a wealth of detail and complexity and often very little in the way of actual fun and I shake my head a bit. CC and FHC seem the right way ahead to me. Leave out what is not needed and package what is in a self contained budget product. Champions (let alone HERO) never really needed more of an update other than making it better able to match stuff seen in the source material (i.e. superhero comics, latterly movies and TV).

 

I think I might pull out my old copy of Champions III and pencil the Shockwave maneuver into the edition I'm using. Should have done that decades ago.

[Hugh Neilson]

d20 games each seem to publish the rules, and I do not think they are suffering. It's a tradeoff. For every player (or group) who chafes at paying for "reprinted content", there's one that chafes at having to buy (or carry around) more books. I can remember debates over why Hero published huge books of villains, but never used them it published adventures, instead using page count for more new characters. But if I bought an adventure and had to buy two villains books I did not have to run it, how happy would that make me?

 

If a Hero book uses a build from, say, the APG, it risks players being worked up because they get a writeup they may not have the details for (if they don't have APG), or they reprint the info (upsetting those who have the APG and don't like paying for the reprint). But having paid for the APG, why don't I see it used in other books? These questions don't have easy answers, for Hero or for anyone else in the business.

[Hugh Neilson]

 

The missing piece of the puzzle here isn't genre books, its campaigns that GMs can pick up and use.  As I've said over and over here, probably to the annoyance of everyone.  Hero has been great at putting out the basic tools, now its time to put out finished product using those tools.  That's starting to happen and I hope not too late.

This - it could be described as just "packaging and presentation", but the reality is that a lot of potential players have been turned off by the lack of a game book they can read for an afternoon, then put a game together in an evening. The genre books provide lots of choices to build your own game, but they do not provide a *game*. Justice Inc., Robot Warriors, Fantasy Hero, Champions and Danger International were *games*. You want to change the magic system? Those options were not in Fantasy Hero the Game. But if you want to start playing the game, not design the game, Fantasy Hero 4e+ does not fit the bill.

 

If moving to core rules and genre books made a lot more players happy, Hero would have experienced a lot more success over the past couple of decades, don't you think?

[Chris Goodwin]

I don't remember if this was a Kickstarter special or is part of the PDF purchase, but Fantasy Hero Complete includes some PDF extras -- a mini setting, an adventure, some maps, a number of characters suitable for PC or NPC use, and some monsters, so with all of that material FHC is as complete a game as FH 1e, and it also fits the criteria of "can I sit down with this and be playing the game in an hour".  The pregen characters are a bit too Powers-focused for my taste, but that's my taste.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

1st edition Fantasy Hero suffered from two things only: a lack of support and a lack of adventures.  It had a decent starting setting but the feel of them was less fantasy and more medieval with wizards, if that makes sense.

[zslane]

I look at the giant 6e books that add a wealth of detail and complexity and often very little in the way of actual fun and I shake my head a bit. CC and FHC seem the right way ahead to me. Leave out what is not needed and package what is in a self contained budget product. Champions (let alone HERO) never really needed more of an update other than making it better able to match stuff seen in the source material (i.e. superhero comics, latterly movies and TV).

 

I agree. I think the presentation of the Hero System has been going the wrong direction since 5e, but not because of the separation of system rules and genre mechanics (a good idea carried over from 4e). It is because the 6e Core Library suffers too much from Wall of Text Syndrome. It is too dense, too detailed, and the power writeups are nigh-inscrutable.

 

I still think that clean system/genre separation is the ideal structure for any universal system. However, it is not especially attractive to newbies and casual gamers. In order to attract them, you need a rich, compelling campaign setting that is "Powered by the Hero System" with just the rules, powers, and character/item writeups necessary to get started. MHI is the only contemporary example of what I'm thinking of. Unfortunately, nobody is in a position to do what is necessary (for the Hero System) in this regard, so it will likely never happen.

 

d20 games each seem to publish the rules, and I do not think they are suffering. It's a tradeoff. For every player (or group) who chafes at paying for "reprinted content", there's one that chafes at having to buy (or carry around) more books.

I don't really have much sympathy for a GM who won't carry at least three books to their gaming sessions. But in this day and age of digital publishing, nobody needs to carry any books with them; they just bring their laptop/mobile device. Separating material cleanly into volumes by major subject just makes sense for a universal system, now more than ever. However, I acknowledge that it may not be the best way to sell the system to new/casual players who like the idea, however illusory, that one book is literally all they will ever need to play the game.

[mrinku]

Honestly, I'd pitch free interactive toolkit software with the rules (the free .pdf when you purchase the hardcopy SHOULD be a given). Probably a combat app as well. Make it smatphone friendly, too, and for Champions definitely some kind of costume design app.