5th Edition Revised Psychokinesis

[jyang298]

Hi, I'm unclear about the rules for Psychokinesis. The way I'm understanding it, Psychokinesis (or Telekinesis + BOECV) is basically Telekinesis but with:

 

1. Uses ECV to target

2. Works on Light of Sight

3. Limited Indirect

4. Is Visible and sensed by Mental Awareness

 

Does the other limitations of BOECV also apply? AKA:

 

1. Does no BODY

2. Cannot affect objects with no EGO such as inanimate objects and robots

 

Does this mean that a character with basic Psychokinesis can't do the classic spoon bending trick? Would a character with Psychokinesis be able to lift rubble that's collapsed on someone or unbend metal bars that are holding someone captive?

[Doc Democracy]

This is one of the big sticking points with people and HERO.  There are no rules for psycho-kinesis.  There are only rules for the powers in the book, everything else is about how you want it to work in the game.

 

You might decide that you want psycho-kinesis to be built using TK based on ECV because your ECV is so good.  That means you have to abide by the elements of BOECV as described in the book.  I now realise that you did not say which edition you are using.  In the one I checked (6th edition) BOECV does not confer the advantages of a mental attack (such as line of sight) and would not have the limitations associated with those.

 

You might decide that you want to build it using just TK with the special effect that it is a mental power, and can be perceived as such.  You might decide to build it any number of ways based on how you want it to play in game.

[Funk Thompson]

The advantage "Based on ECV" does not effect whether a power can do BODY or not.  That is only for the "Attack Versus Alternate Defense" option.

 

Psychokinesis build in the book is OECV vs. DCV* and the damage would be vs. PD, it would do BODY, etc.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Funk Thompson
Correction - vs. DCV

[Sveta]

Rule Number 0 for power design comes into play for Psychokinesis more than anything else that I've found in the Hero System. "What do you want it to do?" This becomes a huge sticking point as most people have an internal distinction between Telekinesis and Psychokinesis, despite them being used as the same concept. Literally breaking them into their component portions, Tele and kinesis means to Movement from Afar, which implies Distance, but not subject or source. This, as opposed to psycho and kinesis is Mental Movement, with implies Subject and/or Source, but not distance. People typically use Telekinesis as a mental manipulation over a distance, thus it could be classified as either! Distinction without Difference you know.

 

What are the options?
So, to the question! What do you want Psychokinesis to do? Let's run with the basics ideas that I can grasp it might be. I'ma break it down into the three things that I can see what this might be based off of. Source, Subject, and Distance.  

 

"I want to be able to move something with my brain."

Cool. That's Telekinesis as written. Whether it is the subconscious telekinesis that is done with great strength that prevent cars from bending where they should, or buildings from tumbling about when removed from their foundation (Telekinesis without distance) or grabbing something from a far (Telekinesis with Distance) that's simply on how you want to limit range, or don't. 

 

"I want to be able to move things!"

That's just Strength, possibly Telekinesis if you want range. Or Stretching if you want range a different way. 

 

"I want to be able to manipulate someone else's brain!"

Neat. That's either going to be written up as something along the lines of Entangle for basic manipulation, (Stop. Freeze. Don't move.) An Ego attack, (Sing Mary Had a Little Lamb. Cower. Fetch me Taco's.) Or A Mental transform, Ala Psychic Surgery (You are no longer afraid of Spiders. You are Bob the Builder. Forget the last few minutes.) Manipulate someone's brain tells you how you are doing something, not what you are doing, which is the important distinction here. This is the option where Mental Defense adds to the Subject's ability to resist. Whether they are using STR or EGO or what have you, that depends on the Special Effect.

 

"I want to be able to manipulate someone's brain with my brain!"

This is a Special effect of the above one. Probably looking at Works against EGO, not STR +1/4 with the Mental Defense adding to their Ego. Keep rolling.

 

How do I do the spoon thing?

Reductive Logic first, what is the Spoon Thing? It is the taking of an object, applying differing forces to the same object without touching it, to alter its physical composition. In other words, You bend it. Easy. Treat it as a telekinetic Squeeze of sorts. That's pretty well it. That's the same answer for the rest of the examples you gave too. It's Telekinesis.

Psychokinesis and Me and You

Long story short, you have me confused. Psychokinesis is Movement in a Mental Manner. This can be:

A: I use My Mind to do stuff.

B: I manipulate Their Mind to do stuff.

C : I use My Mind to do stuff, and manipulate Their Mind to do stuff.

If you mean A: Yes. Psychokinesis would be able to do all the things mentioned above. Spoony things. Bar bending, rubble moving, taco pitching, what have you. This Psychokinesis is simply defining How you do Telekinesis. This would be Psychokinesis defined by something such as, "to manipulate a Physical System via mental force alone"

If you mean B: Likely not. Unless you are using people as Psychic Thralls, you are probably going to be not touching the Physical World.  This would be Psychokinesis defined by something such as, "to manipulate a Mental System in some manner."

If you mean C : Yes. You can move the bricks and make the person's brain itch. Whether this is all done by your mind, or partially by your mind and something else doesn't make a lick of difference. This would be Psychokinesis defined by something such as, "to manipulate a mental or physical system via mental force alone."

 

Neat and all, but I just wanted to make Telekinesis a Mental Power

This is an important sentence if the above is what you intend: Mental Powers simply mean they affect the Mind. This means a "True" Mental Telekinesis would only effect things with minds. You can define this as much by additions (Range: LOS, Use EGO not STR, ect) as well as limitations (Only Classes of Minds, Has Ad Hoc Ablative to resemble Deterioration, ect) as well as having the appropriate Special Effect. This would be the Psychokinesis that has the other person walk to the side, as opposed to have an invisible paddle push them over. This is the Psychokinesis that, unless the door is a thinking door, won't be able to make it open.

 

This is all true for a "True" Mental Telekinesis. If you simply want Telekinesis to come from the Mind that is not a Mental power, but can be made  to Mimic a Mental power. Something with LOS, and resisted by DMCV rather than DCV. That's two Advantages, and boom. Done.

 

Post Ramble Summary

Psychokinesis is one of two things. Either Telekinesis done by the mind, or Mental Manipulation. Which one do you intend? This is a very important distinction that the word itself does not lend credence for either way. To show how important understanding which is meant, I have pretty well only discussed the difference between the two here, not how to do them. So, Bookend this sucker.

Rule 0. "What do you want it to Do?"

[Funk Thompson]

Nice Ramble, but...  he is pretty much specifically talking about Psychokinesis example power as listed in the main books.

 

Which is Telekinesis, Based on ECV (ECV / OMCV vs. DCV)

[Sveta]

This too is true. If that is the case, it appears to indicate that the Telekinesis is set to Resemble a Mental Power, and not truly be one. Victem uses EGO not STR, LOS, Mental Defense probably applies, and it can effect physical objects. 

If that is the case, the book explicitly states (6e mind you is what I'm drawing reference from.)

 

Psychokinesis is Telekinesis as a sort of “Mental Power.” It’s bought with the Advantages ACV (uses OMCV against DCV; +0) and Line Of Sight. Other than that, it works the same as ordinary Telekinesis: it Grabs and moves objects the same way; characters break out of it using STR; Mental Defense has no effect on it.

 

Emphasis is mine, but as there was confusion, I marked that as not being the concern. If it is? Well... Viola. 

[jyang298]

This is based on 5th Edition Revised as stated in the title and also the supplement "Ultimate Mentalist" - which list it specifically as a power. It does not mention the whether it does BODY damage or anything but it does talk in-depth about how to target "objects" with psychokinesis. The confusing part of it all is that it uses "Telekinesis" and "Psychokinesis" interchangeably but given that "Telekinesis" does not have the BOECV advantage (and hence the limitations associated with it), it's not clear if this is the case for Psychokinesis as well. 

[jyang298]

Related question: does an RKA with BOECV lose its ability to deal BODY damage? How would it calculate damage in this case?

[Cantriped]

On 6/4/2018 at 3:46 PM, jyang298 said:

Hi, I'm unclear about the rules for Psychokinesis.

See Hero System Fifth Edition Revised, page 231; under "Based On Ego Combat Value". The page number will be different for the original 5th ed, but the relevent rule should still be in the same general area under Telekinesis.

Anyway, there you will find the definition of "Psychokinesis" in Hero, and an outline of its differences from standard Telekinesis in that edition.

 

The good news is that Psychokinesis still does Normal Damage just fine with BOECV.

[jyang298]

1 hour ago, Cantriped said:

See Hero System Fifth Edition Revised, page 231; under "Based On Ego Combat Value". The page number will be different for the original 5th ed, but the relevent rule should still be in the same general area under Telekinesis.

Anyway, there you will find the definition of "Psychokinesis" in Hero, and an outline of its differences from standard Telekinesis in that edition.

 

The good news is that Psychokinesis still does Normal Damage just fine with BOECV.

Sure, that’s how I described it in my initial post. The Ultimate Mentalist supplement has severa pages dedicated to this power and reading it through the lens pointed out by @Sveta it does talk specifically about using psychokinesis to pick up physical objects with no EGO. Given that it explicitly ignores one of the limitations of BOECV, does that mean it ignores the other limitation (does no BODY) as well? Given that psychokinetic holds are broken out of using STR and direct psychokinetic attacks are blocked by Physical Defense, it seems to suggest that psychokinesis works the same way as telekinesis - aka a physical force. Does this imply that direct psychokinetic attacks (punches) is able to do BODY damage just like regular telekinesis?

[Funk Thompson]

9 hours ago, jyang298 said:

Related question: does an RKA with BOECV lose its ability to deal BODY damage? How would it calculate damage in this case?

 

No.

 

Only if you go with "Attack Versus Alternate Defense" would you need the +1 "Does BODY" adder.

[Funk Thompson]

Basically, whatever CV it uses doesn't affect whether it can do BODY.

 

Only the defense the attack applies to matters for that.

[Cantriped]

7 hours ago, jyang298 said:

Does this imply that direct psychokinetic attacks (punches) is able to do BODY damage just like regular telekinesis?

Per RAW yes. 

 

You seem to be confusing aspects of Applied Versus Limited Defense with Based On EGO Combat Value (and for good reason).

 

The former (AVLD; 5eR 251) is used to create an RKA or Blast that applies against Mental or some other Defense (and must pay an additional fee to retain the ability to cause BODY Damage).

Meanwhile the latter (BOECV; 5eR 253) is used primarially to create powers that you Aim with your mind instead of your body (in other words, one that's attack roll is "based on" your "ego combat value"). However, BOECV does give the option to change the defense to Mental (making it act similarly to AVLD in that case), but that is an option, not a requirement. In later editions these modifiers were better differenciated to prevent confusion.

 

Psychokinesis only requires the BOECV modifier, and per the relevent sections of 5eR and the Ultimate Mentalist (which also includes the section of text I've quoted below from 5eR pg 231) defense is not noted as one of the changes made when BOECV is applied to Telekinesis.

 

So while the same BOECV Telekinesis could also be an entirely Mental Attack (which basically functions like a Mental Blast that can also be used to perform Grabs)... that isn't what 5eR is refering to as "Psychokinesis". Psychokinesis really is just bog standard Telekinesis with the following (and only the following) exceptions:

"It works on Line Of Sight and is not subject to the Range Modifier (unless used to throw an object at a target, in which case you should calculate the Range Modifier from the point where the character picks the object up). It is visible and can also be perceived with Mental Awareness. For purposes of using Psychokinesis, calculate the character’s OCV from his EGO, not his DEX, but the target’s DCV still derives from his DEX." (5eR 231)

[jyang298]

37 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

Basically, whatever CV it uses doesn't affect whether it can do BODY.

 

Only the defense the attack applies to matters for that.

Is this explicitly stated anywhere in the books?

[Cantriped]

12 minutes ago, jyang298 said:

Is this explicitly stated anywhere in the books?

No it isn't... but as a design principle it generally remains true. The stat you (and they) use to determine your (and their) CV isn't relevent to the type of damage the attack causes or against which defense it applies... BOECV is a corner-case where the same modifier can manipulate both, Based on CON (5eR 120) is another...

Regardless, a power like Blast or RKA won't change to STUN Only damage just because you apply a modifier that changes the CV it targets, it will only do so if that modifier also changes the defense against which it applies (such as to Mental Defense in some cases of BOECV).

[Funk Thompson]

28 minutes ago, jyang298 said:

Is this explicitly stated anywhere in the books?

 

"In that exact wording" no.

 

But if you read up on the BOECV and AVLD (I forget the 5th edition term, but think it is "Attack Versus Limited Defense" - in 6E it is "Attack vs. Alternate Defense") it should be a little more clear.

[Simon]

Actual description of psychokinesis in 5E: 

Quote

 

For purposes of using Psychokinesis, calculate the character’s OCV from his EGO, not his DEX, but the target’s DCV still derives from his DEX.

 

 

i.e. you're looking at a heavily modified form of BOECV which reflects the PK being targeted by the character's mind (independently of their physical Dexterity) but otherwise no different from TK.

 

It's a construction which relies on you using your brain, common sense, and dramatic sense...not unlike many things in the system.

[jyang298]

47 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

It's a construction which relies on you using your brain, common sense, and dramatic sense...not unlike many things in the system.

 

Sounds like almost the exact words I've said to my GM regarding this issue. Anyways, thanks to everyone who replied to this post. You've all been very helpful!

[Funk Thompson]

Eh, careful on assuming malice when simple ignorance - or difference of opinion - is more likely the case.

HERO is an incredibly detailed and complicated system, and I have yet to find any two tables that play it exactly alike so far as adherence to RAW vs. house-rules vs. common misunderstandings.

 

It's a 700 or so page volume of rules for 6E, not that much less for 5E.  We're gonna get some things wrong, and not everyone has the same dramatic sense. 

[jyang298]

3 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

Eh, careful on assuming malice when simple ignorance - or difference of opinion - is more likely the case.

HERO is an incredibly detailed and complicated system, and I have yet to find any two tables that play it exactly alike so far as adherence to RAW vs. house-rules vs. common misunderstandings.

 

It's a 700 or so page volume of rules for 6E, not that much less for 5E.  We're gonna get some things wrong, and not everyone has the same dramatic sense. 

 

Nah, no malice between the two of us, it was all very cordial. Being the GM, he's just more concerned with a more liberal interpretation of rules wreaking havoc on game balance during combat encounters. So I guess he just went the other extreme and took to the rule as they're written with no room for flexibility. This led to a weird situation during our first session where my telekinetic mentalist character can't use his powers to unbend the metal bars that's holding his team-mates captive. We still managed to resolve the in-game situation but decided to get some outside opinion on the matter - hence why I posted here.

 

On a related note, is balance a big concern in this game? I got into RPGs quite recently and was taken with the impression that players should be encouraged to create whatever kind of character they feel like and should be allowed to feel great about their characters being awesome at what they do. The GM on the other hand should be more concerned about creating dramatic moments and finding ways to challenge characters. For example, a PC may be great at combat, then as a challenge, maybe separate him from the rest of the party and throw a really strong villain (or a whole bunch of them) at him. Or maybe throw him into social situations where he isn't very good at. The balance part of the game are already built into the system and, in this game especially, items that could potentially be too powerful are highlighted for review. What are your thoughts?

[Funk Thompson]

Balance is *sometimes* a concern and it all depends on your GM's familiarity with the system.

 

You can create game-breaking powers, by RAW.  A good GM can spot these and say no, or adjust it to be less game-breaking.

 

HERO is inherently mathematically balanced so far as 5 points of something being more or less equal to 5 points of something else.

 

But that balance goes out the window if the GM and/or players are not heeding the various stop-sign advice bits on how certain powers or power modifiers can be problematic, or don't spend their points wisely, or whatnot.  

 

The best advice I have there is for the GM to kind of state up-front some campaign rules and norms for their campaign.  AP or DC limits, how much XP you can spend on any given category (characteristics, talents, skills, powers, equipment, etc.)  Whether you can stack multiple AP or Penetrating (or stack multiple hardened / impenetrable on defenses), etc.

 

 

[Cassandra]

I've never thought of Telekinesis as that effective as a power.  There is nothing that can be done with the power that can't be done more effectively with Energy Blast or Entangle.  Telekinesis Fine Manipulation can be useful.

[Funk Thompson]

23 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

I've never thought of Telekinesis as that effective as a power.  There is nothing that can be done with the power that can't be done more effectively with Energy Blast or Entangle.  Telekinesis Fine Manipulation can be useful.

 

Try doing a ranged grab with a blast, or as cheaply using Entangle.  Effective entangles are expensive.  30 STR at range is not. 

 

But, again, it is often less about "efficiency" or "can I do this" and more about building the power to match desired effect.  TK can do a great many things a blast or entangle cannot, but a blast or entangle are likely more efficient and better at their specific jobs.  So you might be able to build a better TK power using variations of blast and entangle, but the rules for TK better match up to "I move things with my mind."  STR vs. TK STR contest being the most obvious, as opposed to applying damage to an entangle.

[Cassandra]

9 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

Try doing a ranged grab with a blast, or as cheaply using Entangle.  Effective entangles are expensive.  30 STR at range is not. 

 

But, again, it is often less about "efficiency" or "can I do this" and more about building the power to match desired effect.  TK can do a great many things a blast or entangle cannot, but a blast or entangle are likely more efficient and better at their specific jobs.  So you might be able to build a better TK power using variations of blast and entangle, but the rules for TK better match up to "I move things with my mind."  STR vs. TK STR contest being the most obvious, as opposed to applying damage to an entangle.

 

A Brick with Stretching would be more effective.

[Funk Thompson]

2 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

 

A Brick with Stretching would be more effective.

 

Sure, but again, stretching and TK have several differences.  You'd need to add on something to represent that their physical form is not stretching.

 

And, again, TK is already basically STR with the Range advantage under the hood.