Question About Life Support in a Multi-Slot

[Surrealone]

Life Support is a Standard Power, so it doesn't need GM's permission to be placed into a Power Framework.  When placed into a Multipower with a 45pt Reserve (or higher) as a Multi-Slot (aka Flexible Slot), does one need to pre-define which capabilities are provided?

 

For context: 45 pts will buy Total Life Support.  

 

Thoughts?

[Simon]

Interesting concept...

 

My take would be that the question is moot because Life Support would not be able to take advantage of the Multi-Slot flexibility -- it's not a level-based ability (like Blast), it's an all-or-nothing ability (like Desolid).  So you'd need to define the Life Support that is in the slot in question when purchasing it (be it Total Life Support or some subset).  From there, it's either on (using all points required for that version of Life Support) or it's off.  Having a variable construct of Life Support (defining what aspects are enabled at any given time) is more of a VPP thing.

[Surrealone]

Simon,

Does RAW stipulate that only level-based abilities (like Blast) can be flexible-/multi-slots?  If it's in RAW, I've looked for it and cannot find it; please point me to it.

 

Without a RAW requirement that only level-based abilities (like Blast) can be flexible-/multi-slots, I would think it's permissible (and even intended) to have things like Life Support in flexible-/multi-slots.  Also, if one can afford Total Life Support, it's reasonable that one might only run a fraction of that capability at a given time.  Actually, as I think about it, even if one has limited Life Support capabilities (pre-defined), it's also reasonable that one might only run a fraction of whatever those are at a given time, yes?

 

Example: An environmental suit capable of Total Life Support that isn't in High Radiation right now but IS at the bottom of the ocean should reasonably be able to run only Self-Contained Breathing and the relevant Safe Environment for High Pressure if desired, right?  This would leave more of the reserve free to do other things (like, maybe, swim faster to get off the bottom of the ocean, perhaps? ).

 

Why would you make the wearer of said suit tie up so much more of his/her reserve?  What's your logic in that?  Note that Life Support isn't (at all) like Desolidification (your example), since the smallest increment you can buy for Life Support costs 1 CP … unlike Desolidifcation, whose smallest increment is a whopping 40 CP.

[Simon]

You can put all-or-nothing powers in Multi-slots, but it doesn't make much sense to do so as you don't get the benefit of the multi-slot -- you still need to supply all of the points to the ability in order for it to function.  You can't go "somewhat desolid" and you can't be somewhat protected from a given environment.

 

Life Support is purchased as an all-or-nothing ability...just one with a lot of options.  Just like purchased Adders on an ability are part of that ability and must be used (not optional), purchased components of a given Life Support construct are part of the ability.  While you may not need High Radiation protection at the bottom of the ocean, it's still there and part of the suit and protecting you (from the non-existent High Radiation).  Should a blast of suspicious radiation suddenly hit, you don't need to change suits -- it's part of the Life Support that you purchased.

 

Being able to change the construction of an ability on the fly is (part of) what a VPP is for.

[Surrealone]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

Life Support is purchased as an all-or-nothing ability...just one with a lot of options. 

Is that your opinion, or a fact supported by RAW?  Asking because the way it's presented, I'm not sure.  If it's a fact supported by RAW, can you provide a citation, please?

[Simon]

The writeup and construction of Life Support.  It is not a level-based ability, it's an Adder-based ability.

 

Note that Blast (the prototypical level-based ability) is known as such from its writeup and cost structure, not an explicit statement that "this is a level-based ability"

[Tom Cowan]

You can just buy each type of adder for LS as its own slot, right?  and watch the GM turn red.  ? yes I a bit evil today

[Simon]

That would work...though a particularly strict GM may have issue with one MP slot affecting another...but it's more effect than affect that would be happening.

[eepjr24]

Life support is not strictly a level based nor an adder based power. It is a collection of logically grouped powers which have level based sub powers. Other similar powers would be Change Environment and Enhanced Senses. You can purchase each "sub power" separately in this type of power at various strengths or levels, so there is nothing stopping you from having a MP with different variable or ultra slots with differing types of life support in them. The example that comes to mind for me was a gadgeteer that I ran with a similar set up. I did not vary the levels of say Extended Breathing, I just used Expanded Breathing as a slot that was an oxygen scrubber and enhancer. His suit could be configured in a second or two to handle most "safe environment" LS slots as well. I could see something similar for a nanobot type character for disease or poisons, if they put all their powers into an MP and had to decide what the nanobots were doing now. All about priorities.

 

3 hours ago, Tom Cowan said:

You can just buy each type of adder for LS as its own slot, right?  and watch the GM turn red.  ? yes I a bit evil today

 

<GM Hat>

As a GM, if you tried to create something like this simply as a cheap way to get longevity or diminished eating or sleep by switching the slot on once a day or whatever, I would tell you to take a hike. Or if I was feeling particularly evil that day I would work up a villain with an MP drain and have you starving, delusional from lack of sleep and aging rapidly in front of your comrades. 

</GM Hat>

 

- E

 

[Hugh Neilson]

An |MP with separate slots for, say, heat, cold, radiation, etc. protection would simulate the ability to activate radiation shields separate from heat shields or heating to protect from cold.  This seems reasonable.  By that logic, Life Support is a series of discrete all or  nothing powers.

[Simon]

38 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

An |MP with separate slots for, say, heat, cold, radiation, etc. protection would simulate the ability to activate radiation shields separate from heat shields or heating to protect from cold.  This seems reasonable.  By that logic, Life Support is a series of discrete all or  nothing powers.

 

Yup...that's what I was getting at (poorly) when I said "Adder-based".  Adders when purchased are a required part of the Power.  Life Support is just a bunch of Adders that you can combine (or not).  If they are purchased with a particular construct, they are part of that construct -- you don't get to pick and choose which to use at any given time.

 

Most of the "Adders" that make up Life Support are all-or-nothing.  Some are option-based -- you select a particular option (breathe underwater, does not breathe, etc.).  Note that option-based is still an all-or-nothing when it comes to points.  It's X points to purchase and that's what you get.  You don't get to go to a lower cost option by tossing fewer points at it in play.  Similar to the changes to Growth between 5th and 6th -- Growth moved from a level-based ability (every 5 points of Growth gets you...) to an option based ability.

[Surrealone]

Alrighty, so it sounds to me like the logical approach for what I'm after is to break down the Total Life Support into logical groupings of discrete functions and buy each of those groupings as individual fixed/ultra slots … and select some or all of those groupings as appropriate to the need at the time.

 

Thanks, guys … this discussion helped a lot.

[unclevlad]

 I'd reject it in most cases.  If we're talking something like Fantasy Hero and spells...might be different.  You'd have to convince me you're not being cheesy...why is this in an MP?  

 

You'd probably have a better chance to argue for some cost reductions.

 

 

[Surrealone]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 I'd reject it in most cases.  If we're talking something like Fantasy Hero and spells...might be different.  You'd have to convince me you're not being cheesy...why is this in an MP?  

Suit with environmental capabilities -- some or none of which may be run at any given time … alongside other things (such as various forms of movement).  Obviously self-contained breathing isn't needed in an atmosphere, so the suit wearer can turn that off and apply its reserve to other things.  The MP helps capture the idea that the suit can't do all of its functions at all times.

 

Ultimately what I was wrestling with was how to properly purchase the Life Support.  The thinking was that with Total Life Support being possible, it just made sense to be able turn on/off some of those functions.  Now if this were Spider Man's symbiotic suit, that might be different, but this is a technological implementation, not a biological one -- and most technology has an off switch or power button of some kind … and it wasn't sitting well with me that you had to have Total Life Support or nothing because that's just not how environmental controls in deep sea diving gear, space gear, etc. works.  Instead, such things have discrete functions that can be independently controlled.  (Air, heat, cooling, etc. as examples.)

[Simon]

I suspect you may be over-thinking it.  The character has the ability to be safe in a highly radioactive environment (for example).  Unless you're purchasing the ability as costing END, it doesn't matter if it's there when he's at the bottom of the ocean -- it's not needed, but it's also a passive ability that isn't doing or costing anything. The only point at which it would conceivably come up is if the character were surprised by a sudden change in environment -- with the MP approach, he'd have a segment or two before he could activate the slot in the MP (potentially).

 

I think where people are taking issue is with the cost-savings/munchkin approach to putting the individual LS builds into an MP.  You're HIGHLY unlikely to ever be in an environment where all LS abilities need to be present at the same time, so placing the abilities into low-cost slots in an MP (with the total cost amounting to less than that of Total Life Support) is kinda skirting (or taking advantage of) the rules. If the effect of only having _some_ LS present at any given time is important to you and the GM has an issue with the cost-savings approach, you could either place a Limitation on a straight LS build or purchase the MP such that the cost amounts to the same as Total Life Support, since the potential limitations on the MP approach are so slim as to not really be worth any points.

[Surrealone]

All abilities on the suit cost END (using an END Battery), including LS.

[Simon]

Ah...that does change it, then...and makes the MP approach make a lot of sense.

[unclevlad]

Why would the designer of this suit have *every* life support aspect be running off an END Bat?  Sure, it's fine for a number of things, but if you want full-scale biohazard and chem suit protection, that's structural more than anything.  Anything related to breathing is probably 1 continuing charge all by itself, not running off a common END Bat.

 

The full 45 points includes things that make no sense on a tech suit...eating, sleeping, and longevity in particular.  (And having these "cost END" makes absolutely no sense.)

 

I'm seeing you want self breathing, safe in all environments, and immune to all poisons/diseases.  That's 29.  None of these fit all that well with costing END individually.  Sure, they can draw power, but it's massively overstating things to say these cost 1 END per phase.  It's just a corner case in the power price/END system that's working very badly against you.  All 5 "safe in X environment" combined, cost the same as any 1 of them, in-game.

 

Next aspect.  If these are costing END, then how long can this suit operate in that environment?  1 END per phase...assume speed 3 to be nice, and assume a hero-level game.  A space marine battlesuit.  (Go higher speed, it's obviously worse.)  That's 15 END per minute, per point in use.

 

Is the END Bat on charges?  That is to say, a real power cell?  Then you can put a Linked (END Bat) on the life support that makes sense to need power, which is the safe environment ones and possibly the breathing.  If the END Bat has no Recovery, then toss in a "1 END per minute" or even per 5 minutes, to say you want to shut them down.  If the END Bat has a recovery, then have the LS cost END per turn.  

 

Another approach may be continuing charges.

 

But if this is a combat suit, the combined "power draw" for all of this still feels like noise, relative to the power needs of the combat systems.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Surrealone]

41 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Why would the designer of this suit have *every* life support aspect be running off an END Bat?  Sure, it's fine for a number of things, but if you want full-scale biohazard and chem suit protection, that's structural more than anything.  Anything related to breathing is probably 1 continuing charge all by itself, not running off a common END Bat.

 

The full 45 points includes things that make no sense on a tech suit...eating, sleeping, and longevity in particular.  (And having these "cost END" makes absolutely no sense.)

 

I'm seeing you want self breathing, safe in all environments, and immune to all poisons/diseases.  That's 29.  None of these fit all that well with costing END individually.  Sure, they can draw power, but it's massively overstating things to say these cost 1 END per phase.  It's just a corner case in the power price/END system that's working very badly against you.  All 5 "safe in X environment" combined, cost the same as any 1 of them, in-game.

 

Next aspect.  If these are costing END, then how long can this suit operate in that environment?  1 END per phase...assume speed 3 to be nice, and assume a hero-level game.  A space marine battlesuit.  (Go higher speed, it's obviously worse.)  That's 15 END per minute, per point in use.

 

Is the END Bat on charges?  That is to say, a real power cell?  Then you can put a Linked (END Bat) on the life support that makes sense to need power, which is the safe environment ones and possibly the breathing.  If the END Bat has no Recovery, then toss in a "1 END per minute" or even per 5 minutes, to say you want to shut them down.  If the END Bat has a recovery, then have the LS cost END per turn.  

 

Another approach may be continuing charges.

 

But if this is a combat suit, the combined "power draw" for all of this still feels like noise, relative to the power needs of the combat systems.  

 

The suit is capable of generating (and fluctuating) fields that break molecular bonds -- which is quite effective against organic and chemical hazards since they can be broken down prior to contact with the suit, itself.  This, of course, is NOT structural … and it does, of course, cost energy.  Heating/cooling both cost energy to perform, too, for their respective safe environments … as does the use of fields (think force field-like SFX) to counter high pressure or a vacuum.  Radiation scrubbing inside the suit also takes energy. I think you get the idea, so I'm not going to cover every item that's included in Total Life Support, but they all make sense given the sci-fi genre this suit is meant for.

 

What I think I need to do is group LS components logically (e.g. all the safe environments together, each of the 10pt immunities, etc.) into ~10ish active point slots that make sense.

 

As for the END Battery, it currently has a recovery.  The draw of the LS systems is, indeed, low compared to combat systems … but the potential need to run them in conjunction with the combat systems makes the END cost of the LS systems worth considering.  I'll give some thought to the charges idea.