Maneuvers w/ an attack action plus taking held half phase actions vs. aborting

[Mystendanian]

I've been back 'n forth over the rulebook (still on 5th Edition revised) many times and I can't seem to find a legitimate answer (as there seems to be conflicting information).  Here's the scenario...

 

PC moves up to engage VIPER General Combat Specialist (GCS) in phase 12.  Later in phase 12, GSC performs a Martial Punch, giving him a +2 to his DCV.  He has a half-phase action left.(*1).  In phase 2, the (speed 6) PC attacks the GCS.  Using his held half-phase action,(*2) the GCS performs the dodge maneuver, which gives him a +5 to his DCV.(*3)  

 

*1 - Under attack actions on pg 115, it says, "an attack action ends the character's phase."  On 358, it says "Performing an attack action brings a character's phase to an end - he can perform no other actions after performing an attack action."  This seems to conflict with:

*2 - Pg 360 says, "A character may perform a Half Phase Action and then hold a Half Phase.  The character is considered "ready" and may perform the Held Half Phase Action later.

*3 - pg 358 says, "if the character performs a Combat Maneuver that modifies his DCV, any modifiers from that maneuver remain in effect UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF HIS NEXT PHASE.  However, on pg 361 it says, "If a character blocks, or uses some other combat maneuver that affects his CV, in a phase, and in his next phase declares a held action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from the maneuver.  

 

Questions (please refer to specific rulebook verbiage if possible in your answer):

 

1.  Can the GCS do this?  (perform an martial maneuver attack action in phase 12, hold a half-phase action, and then use his half-phase action for a defensive maneuver)?  Because items *3 above pg 361 seems to indicate that they can do just that

2.  If the GCS can't use a held half-phase in phase 2, then I know he can still abort to dodge.  I'm assuming at that point he loses the +2 DCV bonus from the martial strike and it is overriden by the +5 DCV from the martial dodge.  It doesn't stack, right?

 

 

[Greywind]

1) No. Combat action (Martial Punch) ends his phase. There is no half-phase action left.

 

2) No. Does not stack. Dodge modifiers take place.

[archer]

13 hours ago, Mystendanian said:

I've been back 'n forth over the rulebook (still on 5th Edition revised) many times and I can't seem to find a legitimate answer (as there seems to be conflicting information).  Here's the scenario...

 

PC moves up to engage VIPER General Combat Specialist (GCS) in phase 12.  Later in phase 12, GSC performs a Martial Punch, giving him a +2 to his DCV.  He has a half-phase action left.(*1).  In phase 2, the (speed 6) PC attacks the GCS.  Using his held half-phase action,(*2) the GCS performs the dodge maneuver, which gives him a +5 to his DCV.(*3)  

 

*1 - Under attack actions on pg 115, it says, "an attack action ends the character's phase."  On 358, it says "Performing an attack action brings a character's phase to an end - he can perform no other actions after performing an attack action."  This seems to conflict with:

*2 - Pg 360 says, "A character may perform a Half Phase Action and then hold a Half Phase.  The character is considered "ready" and may perform the Held Half Phase Action later.

*3 - pg 358 says, "if the character performs a Combat Maneuver that modifies his DCV, any modifiers from that maneuver remain in effect UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF HIS NEXT PHASE.  However, on pg 361 it says, "If a character blocks, or uses some other combat maneuver that affects his CV, in a phase, and in his next phase declares a held action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from the maneuver.  

 

Questions (please refer to specific rulebook verbiage if possible in your answer):

 

1.  Can the GCS do this?  (perform an martial maneuver attack action in phase 12, hold a half-phase action, and then use his half-phase action for a defensive maneuver)?  Because items *3 above pg 361 seems to indicate that they can do just that

2.  If the GCS can't use a held half-phase in phase 2, then I know he can still abort to dodge.  I'm assuming at that point he loses the +2 DCV bonus from the martial strike and it is overriden by the +5 DCV from the martial dodge.  It doesn't stack, right?

 

 

 

You get two half phases during each of your phases. But when you use some combat action (punch, dodge, whatever), your phase becomes completely over. If you do a combat action during your first half phase, that combat action uses up your entire phase immediately and your phase ends. You can't do two different combat actions during your same phase. You cannot do a half phase combat action first then still have a half phase left over for future use. If you choose to do a half phase combat action first, your half phase combat action uses up two half phases...phase is completely over.

 

If you don't use a combat action, you can hold actions over from your phase right up until your next phase begins and use those actions at any time. But as soon as you next phase begins, your held action disappears as if it never existed if you haven't used it.

 

Now as for your example, the GSC can do the Marital Punch on phase 12. Doing that alone uses up his entire phase if he didn't do something else first.

 

When the SPD 6 PC attacks the GSC later, the GSC can't use a held action to dodge because he has no held action. He can abort to a dodge by using up his entire next phase which would otherwise have happened later in the combat. But he can't reach back in time to before his Martial Punch and use either of the half phases which were used up by that punch.

 

I hope that explanation was clear enough.

[Mystendanian]

that does help, thank you.  I appreciate the extra explanation.

 

 

[Joe Walsh]

On 9/28/2018 at 12:33 AM, archer said:

If you don't use a combat action, you can hold actions over from your phase right up until your next phase begins and use those actions at any time. But as soon as you next phase begins, your held action disappears as if it never existed if you haven't used it.

 

And, conversely, if you do use your held action earlier in the Segment than your next Phase begins (via "I wait until he...", for example), then your normal Phase for that Segment disappears as if it never existed. That's the cost of acting earlier in the Segment than your DEX allows. (Not to mention, you're going to need to do better than the other guy at a DEX roll if you want to preempt him at his own DEX with something other than a defensive action.)

 

That's how I run it, anyway.

 

[Scott Ruggels2]

The way we did it, was that any attack (that was not the result of a damage shield) ended a character's turn. In the above example the VIPER Agent ended his turn with the martial Punch, even if he had a saved half action. But the additions to his DCV with the martial punch would stick, until his next action. If "Our Hero" saved his half or full action, he would be able to drop an attack on any following segment, until his next phase. This was often used to simulate complex martial arts move in our games, allowing consecutive segment/phase actions. But on a busy battle mat, with dozens of opponents engaged in combat, held actions became a rather rare commodity.

[Pegasus40218]

I'm still learning the mechanics of the system and wanted to get a little more clarification on this thread if I may:

 

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:33 AM, archer said:

 

If you don't use a combat action, you can hold actions over from your phase right up until your next phase begins and use those actions at any time. But as soon as you next phase begins, your held action disappears as if it never existed if you haven't used it.

 

 

My question is this:  Can I take a held half-phase action on the same segment that I have a phase?

 

For example, let's say my character is speed 4 and acts on DEX 15.  On my phase in segment 3, I use a half-phase action to move and decide to hold my remaining half-phase.  No opportunity presents itself to use that held action until segment 6.  On DEX 17 an enemy character moves within reach of my character.  Can I use my held half-phase action to attack that character on DEX 17, and then act again (with a full phase available to my character) on DEX 15 (potentially getting two attack actions in the same segment)?  Does it matter if the enemy character acting on DEX 17 doesn't stop within reach of my character (i.e. he's trying to move PAST my character, and I want to try to use my action to stop him)?

 

[Brian Stanfield]

3 hours ago, Pegasus40218 said:

Can I use my held half-phase action to attack that character on DEX 17, and then act again (with a full phase available to my character) on DEX 15 (potentially getting two attack actions in the same segment)?  Does it matter if the enemy character acting on DEX 17 doesn't stop within reach of my character (i.e. he's trying to move PAST my character, and I want to try to use my action to stop him)?

 

Once you use your held half-phase during the same phase you'd normally act, but at an earlier DEX, that's it for your phase. You don't get to double up in the way you are asking. This is especially true because your half-phase is an attack action, which will always end your phase.

 

As for the interception of a character moving past you, there has been an ongoing debate over this issue for years. It's going to have to be your call (for instance, you may consider breaking the movement up into all 12 segments to indicate where a flying player may be at any one time). But unless the character is in an adjacent hex at some point during your held half-phase, you won't be able to both move to him and attack. You could, however, discard your held half-phase and wait until your own full phase comes up at DEX 15, do a half-move to engage the other guy, and then attack.

 

Hope this makes sense! See GM Joe's post above for an example of this.

[Pegasus40218]

20 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Once you use your held half-phase during the same phase you'd normally act, but at an earlier DEX, that's it for your phase. You don't get to double up in the way you are asking. This is especially true because your half-phase is an attack action, which will always end your phase.

 

As for the interception of a character moving past you, there has been an ongoing debate over this issue for years. It's going to have to be your call (for instance, you may consider breaking the movement up into all 12 segments to indicate where a flying player may be at any one time). But unless the character is in an adjacent hex at some point during your held half-phase, you won't be able to both move to him and attack. You could, however, discard your held half-phase and wait until your own full phase comes up at DEX 15, do a half-move to engage the other guy, and then attack.

 

Hope this makes sense! See GM Joe's post above for an example of this.

 

This does make sense.  Part of the reason I'm asking the question(s) is that the group I game with is loaded with Rules Lawyers, so I want to try to make sure I understand how things are supposed to work.  Like you indicated, I felt like getting two phases in the same segment felt like double-dipping.  If, using my original example, the PC wanted to take a half-phase action (including an attack action) in segment 5, they could. but they couldn't take that action in segment 6 AND get their normal phase in segment 6 as well.  I do, however, think it would be "fair" to allow them to take their full action at an earlier DEX at the expense of the held half-phase action.

[Brian Stanfield]

1 minute ago, Pegasus40218 said:

I do, however, think it would be "fair" to allow them to take their full action at an earlier DEX at the expense of the held half-phase action.

 

If I understand your example correctly, I think you may mean take their full action at a later DEX. The held half-phase would happen earlier at DEX 17, for example, but the full phase would happen later at DEX 15. 

[Pegasus40218]

2 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

If I understand your example correctly, I think you may mean take their full action at a later DEX. The held half-phase would happen earlier at DEX 17, for example, but the full phase would happen later at DEX 15. 

 

No -- what I was considering was allowing the player to take their full segment 6 phase at the higher DEX.  They wouldn't get 3 half-phase actions (so essentially, the held half-phase action would be forfeit), but because they were essentially "waiting" I might allow them to take their full phase earlier in the segment.

Or am I misusing the terms "segment" and "phase"?  Does a character's phase "begin" at the start of the segment in which he's allowed to act, or does his "phase" not begin until his DEX within that segment?

[Brian Stanfield]

8 hours ago, Pegasus40218 said:

Or am I misusing the terms "segment" and "phase"?  Does a character's phase "begin" at the start of the segment in which he's allowed to act, or does his "phase" not begin until his DEX within that segment?

 

You’re using it correctly, I just misunderstood what you were saying. You’re basically giving them a bonus half-phase at a higher DEX. I wouldn’t do that myself because you’d be giving them a reward for taking a reward. Holding an action is itself a reward for deferring an action now, in this case a half action. Allowing the half action to become a full action at a higher DEX is a second reward for the same thing, and runs the risk of potential abuse or imbalance. That wouldn’t be “official” rules as written, but if it fits your goal then have at it!

[dsatow]

I believe the rules as written effectively state that at the start of your segment the delay goes away.  If someone can cite and contradict this, I won't argue.

 

Having said that, I know of no GM that wouldn't let you keep that delayed half phase up util your Dex on that segment but if you take an action which would end your phase, that would end your actions on that segment.  So attacking twice in one segment is definitely out.  Doing 3 half moves might be allowed based on the GM.

 

As GM, how you run your table is how you run your table regardless of the rules lawyers.  Just as long as you are consistent.

 

[Brian Stanfield]

48 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Having said that, I know of no GM that wouldn't let you keep that delayed half phase up util your Dex on that segment but if you take an action which would end your phase, that would end your actions on that segment.  So attacking twice in one segment is definitely out.  Doing 3 half moves might be allowed based on the GM.

 

The way the rule is described on FRED 360 suggests that three half-moves is not allowed: “A character may Hold his Action until a later DEX in one of his Phases or until a later Segment. However, he can never use a Held Action to take two Actions in one Segment — he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time. (The GM may, if he wishes, let a character Hold his Action until his next Phase begins, but if he chooses to use the Held Action before his Phase occurs, it takes the place of his Phase — he cannot have two Phases in the same Segment.)”

 

Three half moves seems not to be RAW, but as as with all things, though, it is up to the GM to define it differently. Just be sure to be explicit with this ahead of time because it could lead to some abuses.