Modern Weapons?

[Aroooo]

Let me tackle some of those:

 

AF(10) - Yes, I wanted to make it AF(15) but HeroDesigner only goes by 2, 3, 5, 10, 20... so I left it at 10. In all honesty you could make it AF(20) since a heroic character isn't going to have a SPD 12 anyway

 

Underpowered round - Having never fired one, let alone seen one in real life, I'm going purely on published materials. The SS190 5.7x28mm round is the same one used in their handgun model, so I left the damage a bit lower than a rifle, but upped the STUN mod to +2. Add AP on top of that and 1d6+1 is plenty effective at AP(5) (or AP(10)).

 

STR Min - Makes sense. Again, just going by what I've read - and on further reading since this morning, I'm okay with 10 STR.

 

Two Handed - Since it can be fired one handed - in fact one of its design benefits is to be clipped to a harness and fired one handed in CQB, I've left the 2-hand lim off.

 

AP - I'm leaning that way too. Maybe something like: Armor Piercing (Armor only [not Vehicle DEF], only up to 20 PD; +1/4).

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

Re: Re: Re: How about the P90?

 

Originally posted by Resartus

I've played a lot of other systems over the years but I'm fairly new to Hero, some of the folks in my gaming group are very into the hardware their characters use in their games, so I'm trying to learn how to convert things we've used before into Hero as accurately and with as much detail as I can.

 

One good conversion source mentioned before is 3G^3 (Guns Guns Guns) from the folks at Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (http://www.btrc.net/html/catalog.html#3G3). [This copied from the first page of this thread...]

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

P90 Revised

 

P90 (5.7x28mm): (Total: 90 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Limited Armor Piercing (AP up to 20rPD Armor only (not vs. Vehicle DEF, FF, FW, etc.); +1/4), +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), 4 clips of 50 Charges (+3/4), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); STR Minimum 10 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Range (200m effective range) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 21) plus Sights (optical and/or laser): +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Aroooo

[Resartus]

Re: How about the P90?

 

One good conversion source mentioned before is 3G^3 (Guns Guns Guns) from the folks at Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (http://www.btrc.net/html/catalog.html#3G3). [This copied from the first page of this thread...]

 

Aroooo

 

I have an old copy of 3G^3 around here somewhere, have they updated it to cover Fred?

[Aroooo]

Re: How about the P90?

 

I have an old copy of 3G^3 around here somewhere' date=' have they updated it to cover Fred?[/quote']

 

Not sure. I don't think so, but 4th edition Hero should work for 5th. I don't think there were any changes in that area.

 

Aroooo

[Resartus]

Re: P90 Revised

 

In digging around for reviews and statistics on the P90 and Kevlar armors in general I found a few things that have made me supect the Kevlar stats in Fred. This could just be a bad assumption on my part but this is how I've mapped the Kevlar armor stats on page 334 to the real world:

 

Armor Def Real World Equivalent

Light Kevlar 5 Threat level IIa vest

Kevlar 9 Threat level IIIa vest

Heavy Kevlar 11 Threat level III or IV vest

 

A Threat level IIa vest is supposed to completely protect against a 9mm round which does 1d6+1 according to page 332 of Fred. The max damage from a 9mm round would allow 2 points of BODY damage to get through the vest. Is the correct? Does 2 points of BODY damage correlate to the large bruise that you would get after being shot with a 9mm while wearing one of these vests? If so then I'm fine with the damages and I need to get a better handle on what BODY damage really means. If not then does anyone have any modern armor stats to go with our modern guns?

[Aroooo]

Re: P90 Revised

 

A Threat level IIa vest is supposed to completely protect against a 9mm round which does 1d6+1 according to page 332 of Fred. The max damage from a 9mm round would allow 2 points of BODY damage to get through the vest. Is the correct? Does 2 points of BODY damage correlate to the large bruise that you would get after being shot with a 9mm while wearing one of these vests? If so then I'm fine with the damages and I need to get a better handle on what BODY damage really means. If not then does anyone have any modern armor stats to go with our modern guns?

 

Like most things in Hero, its interpretive I can certainly accept 2 BODY damage as the bruising and possible cracked ribs. I think the armor values listed in FRED are reasonable. To reference several other conversations, I think the low end (i.e. personal scale) damage and defense in 5th are good. Its just when you start getting into the bigger weapons/explosives, etc. that the system breaks down.

 

Aroooo

[Resartus]

Re: P90 Revised

 

I did a little more reading in Fred on taking damage, the part about severing limbs seemed to sort it out the best for me. It only takes 3 BODY damage to sever a limb from a person's body if they have a Con of 10. This makes 2 BODY damage seem like a lot more than bruising. Granted it does say that the 1-2 BODY damage could represent a bone fracture, but UL standards require that the 'Backface Deformation' be no more than 1.7" on a IIa vest. It doesn't seem like that's enough to crack a rib, but I could be wrong there.

 

I'm sorry to be so picky about this, but I'm looking at converting Transhuman Space to Hero and the players' characters are mostly going to fit into the 'Heroic' level. The players are realism buffs and I'll be using a lot of the optional combat rules to increase the 'grit' level of the campaign. I'm using the P90 as an exercise to make sure that I've got a good feel for the how and why weapons and armor are built the way they are so I can explain it to my players.

 

This discussion has definitely been helpful so far, thank you.

[Aroooo]

Re: P90 Revised

 

'Backface Deformation' be no more than 1.7"

 

I take it thats almost 2 inches in the real world, not game inches I'm guessing here backface deformation means how far the side of the armor against your body can be pushed in by an incoming round? 1.7 Inches is a lot of distance, especially when you're talking about the human body. Press on your rib cage - I suspect that they won't flex into your chest cavity 1.7 inches before they start hurting

 

And before anyone thinks it, I'm not being antagonistic

 

As for the severing limbs rules, I'm not up to speed on them, so I'll have to pass on that one for now. I'll read up on them tonight though.

 

There are going to be lots of opinions on this, and for sure no solid middle ground to stand on with this issue. Grit and damage levels are going to be a GM thing to measure. For personal firearms, I think the general levels outlined in the exisitng firearms are acceptable - in terms of damage levels. Two common solutions are to 1) increase the STUN level; 2) utilize more of the optional combat/damage rules (which you are). You should also do a search in the main Hero forum - you'll find lots of good threads on this issue.

 

Aroooo

[Resartus]

Re: P90 Revised

 

I take it thats almost 2 inches in the real world, not game inches I'm guessing here backface deformation means how far the side of the armor against your body can be pushed in by an incoming round? 1.7 Inches is a lot of distance, especially when you're talking about the human body. Press on your rib cage - I suspect that they won't flex into your chest cavity 1.7 inches before they start hurting

 

And before anyone thinks it, I'm not being antagonistic

 

As for the severing limbs rules, I'm not up to speed on them, so I'll have to pass on that one for now. I'll read up on them tonight though.

 

There are going to be lots of opinions on this, and for sure no solid middle ground to stand on with this issue. Grit and damage levels are going to be a GM thing to measure. For personal firearms, I think the general levels outlined in the exisitng firearms are acceptable - in terms of damage levels. Two common solutions are to 1) increase the STUN level; 2) utilize more of the optional combat/damage rules (which you are). You should also do a search in the main Hero forum - you'll find lots of good threads on this issue.

 

Aroooo

 

You're right that was real world inches not game inches, as it turns out the 1.7" messurement is in the standard because it's considered the maximum safe distance the armor can deform into your body. I was reading an article about the testing that mentioned how little this was compared the having CPR performed on you. Keep in mind that it's over so quick you barely have time to register it and the human rib cage is really designed to handle a lot of flex.

 

None the less I agree that 1 BODY damage could work as a nasty bruise that takes a week or so to heal up and that dovetails nicely with the healing rules. And the losing a limb rule seems to be a simplification of the Imparing and Disabling optional rules on page 278. The full Imparing and Disabling rules require a much stronger hit to a limb to cause permanent injury so my estimation of a single point of BODY damage has changed significantly.

 

I don't think you're being antagonistic at all, this has been helpful.

 

I went looking for "weapon damage" in the system discusion area and found the chart that I was looking for. It equates damage classes with ft-lbs of kinetic energy that I can use to convert weapons stats with. It will also help in converting rounds that are hotloaded, you can push some of the weapons in the main book up a whole damage class this way. This should create a lot more variety for my players so I'm happy!

 

I'm still going to tweak a few things though to better fit my take on them. I'm moving the light kevlar (IIa) vest to defense 6 which will stop a .380 and below solidly but will still allow "bruising" levels of damage from 9mm on up, more than "bruising" if they're hotloaded. I'm also moving the heavy kevlar (III/IV) vest up to defense 12, they really are capable of completely stopping a round from an AK-47 without wearer really feeling it because these vests have ceramic inserts. Plus the newer Spectra based vests are mesurably better that the older Kevlar based ones. hmmm... Mabye I'll just add the Spectra based vests as an incremental improvement and leave the Kevlar vests as they are now. Yes, more variety is good! Lastly I'm moving the damage for the Berret .50 BMG to 10 damage classes for a total of 3d6+1, at 12,000+ ft-lbs. it has the KE output to justify it. Plus I just love the damn thing, if I ever win they Lotto I'm buying one.

 

As another aside your call on the damage for the P90 was spot on. The muzzle output of the P90 is 380 ft-lbs and the cutoff point for 4 DC is 400 ft-lbs. I also found an example for creating new power advantages in the main book called "semi-armor piercing" it reads like a perfect fit for how I under stood the SS190 round. However it would keep the P90 from being able to penetrate regluar kevlar (IIIa) vest with increasing it's damage to 2d6-1 and I'm not sure that I want to do that.

 

Back to the topic at hand does anyone have any other weapons that they want to post so we can add them to our own armorys? I'm going to try and find my old copy of 3G^3 and see what I can come up with this weekend. I'm going to start with the weapons in GURPS High Tech and work towards GURPS modern firepower.

 

Happy hunting!

[Aroooo]

Re: P90 Revised

 

As another aside your call on the damage for the P90 was spot on. The muzzle output of the P90 is 380 ft-lbs and the cutoff point for 4 DC is 400 ft-lbs. I also found an example for creating new power advantages in the main book called "semi-armor piercing" it reads like a perfect fit for how I under stood the SS190 round. However it would keep the P90 from being able to penetrate regluar kevlar (IIIa) vest with increasing it's damage to 2d6-1 and I'm not sure that I want to do that.

 

Thanks for the compliment! I'm by no means an expert on firearms - I was just ballancing the P90 within its 'class' so to speak.

 

If you ever get something formal written up, I'd like to post it over at the starherofandom site under the house rules section.

 

Aroooo

[gewing]

Re: P90 Revised

 

I was amazed by the D20 modern weapons book. IIRC it was "the arms locker" or something like that. Even I had never heard of a 23mm pump shotgun, but it is real! 3 shot pump action 4 gauge. WOW

 

the Russian 9x39 suppressed guns are good "gamer guns" as is the Alexander arms .50 Beowulf. 300 grain bullet at 1900fps from an Ar-15/M-16 with a 16 inch barrel. Only 10 shots, but...

[Aroooo]

P90 Revised

 

After thinking about this over the weekend, and reading up on the rules governing advantages, I present the new and improved P90:

 

[removed-see next message]

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

P90 Revised (revised)

 

Forget the above post. I didn't reread the combat section and FAQ's, so you don't really need the MP. I did add a second set of OCV bonuses to negate AF mods (figured as the reduced recoil of the SS190 rounds):

 

P90 (5.7x28mm) Tactical SMG: (Total: 100 Active Cost, 29 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Limited Armor Piercing (up to 20 PD armor only, not vs. Vehicle DEF, FF, FW; +1/4), +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), 4 clips of 50 Charges (+3/4), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 11 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Limited Range (200m effective range; -1/4), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 21) plus Reduced Recoil Impulse: +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only to negate Autofire mods (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Sights (optical and/or laser): +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

H&K MP5 Revisited

 

Here's an expanded take on the H&K MP5 SMG (expanding on the basics in 5th ed.):

 

17	H&K MP5 SMG: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, 4 clips of 30 Charges (+1/2), Autofire (10 shots; +1) (50 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (200m effective range; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)
	Options
10	1) Sound Suppressor: Invisible to Hearing Group, Source Only (+1/4) for up to 50 Active Points of H&K MP5 SMG, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)	0
5	2) Tactical Forearm Light: Sight Group Images Increased Size (2" radius; +1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (Battery; +1/4) (15 Active Points); Only to create light (-1), No Range (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)	[1 cc]

 

Aroooo

[Toadmaster]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

Something I was playing with for small arms penetration was based on the old power from Champs 3 piercing, I added 1-4 extra points of damage only vs armor, so high velocity rounds penetrate better but don't neccessarily do more damage, for example a .44 Magnum does 2d6 RKA, and a 5.56mm does 2d6 RKA but due to the high velocity I gave the 5.56mm 3 extra points vs damage, so against an unarmored opponent the weapons are equal, but against an armored target the 5.56mm has a little more penetration which is as it should be. My problem with using AP was that it was too good at pentrating armor, AP bullets add 10-20% or so to penetration not 200%.

Also the 5.7mm penetrates better than the 9mm but apparently just makes small holes in the target so the 9mm has better "knock down", I just ran them equal but if you really want to give it AP I would drop the DC one to keep it more equal with the 9mm, it got off to a good start but several militaries that bought the P90 are trading them in for their old 9mm or 5.56mm weapons due to the rather poor end effect the 5.7mm has. Not to say for a game the P90 isn't cool but if you are playing with gunbunnies the stats are likely to be controversial similar to the age old .45 vs 9mm arguments.

[Aroooo]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

Something I was playing with for small arms penetration was based on the old power from Champs 3 piercing, I added 1-4 extra points of damage only vs armor, so high velocity rounds penetrate better but don't neccessarily do more damage, for example a .44 Magnum does 2d6 RKA, and a 5.56mm does 2d6 RKA but due to the high velocity I gave the 5.56mm 3 extra points vs damage, so against an unarmored opponent the weapons are equal, but against an armored target the 5.56mm has a little more penetration which is as it should be. My problem with using AP was that it was too good at pentrating armor, AP bullets add 10-20% or so to penetration not 200%.

Also the 5.7mm penetrates better than the 9mm but apparently just makes small holes in the target so the 9mm has better "knock down", I just ran them equal but if you really want to give it AP I would drop the DC one to keep it more equal with the 9mm, it got off to a good start but several militaries that bought the P90 are trading them in for their old 9mm or 5.56mm weapons due to the rather poor end effect the 5.7mm has. Not to say for a game the P90 isn't cool but if you are playing with gunbunnies the stats are likely to be controversial similar to the age old .45 vs 9mm arguments.

 

I agree that AP as done in Hero is probably too much, at least for small arms like we're talking about - but I didn't want to go too far down the house rules road with the Piercing advantage (although I admit the mechanics works quite well).

 

.45 APC vs 9mm Para... those were the days. I remember all those arguments well from my youth For the P90 I just used published figures. Couldn't find any reviews online.

 

Aroooo

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

I agree that AP as done in Hero is probably too much' date=' at least for small arms like we're talking about - but I didn't want to go too far down the house rules road with the Piercing advantage (although I admit the mechanics works quite well). [/quote']You don't have to create an Advantage for Piercing; add some Damage Classes, Only to Penetrate Armor. If you tweak the Limitation correctly (don't remember the exact number) the cost comes out the same as the old Piercing.

[BlackSword]

Re: P90 Revised

 

A Threat level IIa vest is supposed to completely protect against a 9mm round which does 1d6+1 according to page 332 of Fred. The max damage from a 9mm round would allow 2 points of BODY damage to get through the vest. Is the correct? Does 2 points of BODY damage correlate to the large bruise that you would get after being shot with a 9mm while wearing one of these vests? If so then I'm fine with the damages and I need to get a better handle on what BODY damage really means. If not then does anyone have any modern armor stats to go with our modern guns?

Not up on the weapons or body armor stats from FREd (or another source book). However, unless you are using hit locations(random and/or called shot), the 2 BODY that can potentially get through might better represent the chance of a shot hitting another part of the body not covered by the vest. If you are using hit locations then armor should be able to take the entire shot (7 rPD), but better hope you don't get shot in the leg (or arm or head).

 

Just thinking outloud.

[Aroooo]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

You don't have to create an Advantage for Piercing; add some Damage Classes' date=' Only to Penetrate Armor. If you tweak the Limitation correctly (don't remember the exact number) the cost comes out the same as the old Piercing.[/quote']

 

Would that be like a naked advantage??

 

Aroooo

[mayapuppies]

Re: P90 Revised (revised)

 

P90 (5.7x28mm) Tactical SMG: (Total: 100 Active Cost' date=' 29 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Limited Armor Piercing (up to 20 PD armor only, not vs. Vehicle DEF, FF, FW; +1/4), +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), 4 clips of 50 Charges (+3/4), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 11 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Limited Range (200m effective range; -1/4), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 21) plus Reduced Recoil Impulse: +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only to negate Autofire mods (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Sights (optical and/or laser): +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)[/quote']

Just out of curiousity, why are you adding in the Beam limitation? Forgive the possible newbie question.

 

Next question, will you be posting this Stargate HERO information? I for one would GREATLY appreciate the resource

[Toadmaster]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

The Beam weapon limitation is commonly used with small arms because bullets just make small holes. It is hard to shoot down a wall or a door, typically you'll want an axe or sledge hammer for that job.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

The Beam weapon limitation is commonly used with small arms because bullets just make small holes. It is hard to shoot down a wall or a door' date=' typically you'll want an axe or sledge hammer for that job.[/quote']

I disagree. The Beam lim (which some have argued is better named "Bullet") does a good job of expressing some characteristics of real weapons: the attack is always at full power, and it can't be "spread" to trade potential damage for a better hit-chance.

[lemming]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

I disagree. The Beam lim (which some have argued is better named "Bullet") does a good job of expressing some characteristics of real weapons: the attack is always at full power' date=' and it can't be "spread" to trade potential damage for a better hit-chance.[/quote']

I've always played it that you and Toadmaster are both correct.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Modern Weapons?

 

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification.