Simon

Re: OMGWTFBBQ is there a HERO Glossary?

I suppose I should, if I ever get a free moment to myself again, make a glossary of abbreviations to go with the Ultimate Index.

 

The Ultimate Abbr. should be appropriate.

Just call it TUA and explain the acronym in the document.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

So supposing someone wants to buy plain old regular martial arts based on an OIF 'gem' focus' date=' they can do it, they just won't get a cost break for the OIF gem?[/quote']Correct.

 

If you want to bypass the rules restriction on only applying Modifiers to a style (10 or more points' worth of Maneuvers), you can use the Notes field on the individual Maneuvers to explain the limiting aspects of them (since the Limitations have no effect on the build).

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

Almost, but not quite. The Limitations are applied against the total cost of the Advantaged Maneuver. The main rules caveat in play that prevents Limitations from having any effect on a non-Advantaged Maneuver is that a Maneuver cannot be reduced below its initial/base cost.

Take, for example, Charge:

Base cost of the Maneuver: 4 points

Cost of the Maneuver with +1 in Advantages applied: 44 points

Cost of the Maneuver with +1 in Advantages and -1 in Limitations applied: 22 points.

If you only applied Limitations to the Naked Advantage portion of the build, the math would be easy (or easier) and the final cost with Limitations of the above would work out to 24 points (44 - 4)/(1+1) + 4.

Limitations apply to Maneuvers but cannot reduce the cost below the starting point (base cost).

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

I don't know either - twas the same for ghost-angel too /shrug But then' date=' evidence now shows (via ghost-angel's valid points) and you telling me that there are rules saying it shouldn't be working the way I want it to in UMA that I am not supposed to be doing so anyway. I don't mind doing a workaround to get the points back, for GM approval stuff, when HD is intentionally built not to do something.[/quote']

You're not listening: it is NOT a workaround that you need to perform. HD is implementing the optional "GM approval stuff" in the exact manner that the rules dictate. You are not familiar with those rules.

 

I would suggest that until such time as you become familiar with those rules that you do not utilize the optional "GM approval stuff".

 

There is a HUGE amount of detail that goes into the calculation of Active Points on Maneuvers and how Limitations apply to them.

 

ghost-angel had things working just fine. And said as much. He purchased a Maneuver with a +1/4 Advantage. The cost ended up at 11 points, in complete accordance with the rules.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

Uhhhh...hmm. You told me to put advantages on. Then to put the limitations on. In my example above, that is exactly what I did. I followed your directions exactly. I put the skills into a List (more than 10 AP worth, as directed). Then I did the advantage/limitation work on the List, as directed.

 

I put +2 Advantages on all the slots in the list. 5 AP skills in the list did not go up in AP - they remanined at 5 AP. I then put a -1 Lim on all slots on the list. Obviously, if the +2 Adv didn't increase the cost.

 

*Forget the limitations* altogether for a moment. To restate, I followed your instructions exactly. I created the list. I put the skills (more than 10 pts worth) into the list. I applied advantages to the skills. The costs did not change. And this time it wasn't just me. The same happened to ghost-angel.

 

Off to uninstall/reinstall my java.

No clue what you're doing, but when I make a List with +2 in Advantages and add Maneuvers to the List, I get point costs of 84 points for Charge, 55 points for Defensive Block, 64 points for Counterstrike, etc.

Sure seems to be working to me.

If I then apply Limitations to the list, the costs are reduced appropriately.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

Now if only I could get that to work... see the HD thread about this' date=' if interested. Doesn't appear to be working for ghost-angel either.[/quote']

It's working just fine -- you're just not understanding the rules.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

That's a much less restructive quote. Contrast with the absolute requirement to purchase at least 10 Active Points points of maneuvers - no "generally" or "GM's may allow" in sight there.

Technically, all are correct -- Limitations do not apply to the Maneuver, but to the pseudo-Naked Advantage that is applied to the Maneuver. They apply to the increase in Active Cost from any Advantages that have been applied.

Calculating just what that increase is turns out to be rediculously complicated, but that's just the nature of the beast, in this case.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

Slap a +0 Custom Advantage on it and Limitation away.

Feel free -- won't affect the cost any, as the Limitations apply to the Advantaged cost of the Maneuver (effectively, the Advantages are treated as Naked Advantages, applying to the calculated Active Cost of the Maneuver) -- yes, it is rediculously complicated....no arguments here.

If you have, for example, Charge purchased with +1 in advantages, the Active Cost is 44. Limitations apply to the +40 points from the Advantages.

If you apply +0 in Advantages, there is nothing for the Limitations to apply to, so they have no effect.

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

You're not applying any Advantages.

A Limitation will only affect an Advantaged Maneuver (once again, in accordance with the rules of the system).

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

Limitations may only be applied to a "style" (a style is defined as 10 or more points of Maneuvers).

1. Make a list

2. Add 10 or more points' worth of Maneuvers to the list

3. Assign Limitations to the List (style).

This is done in accordance with the rules of the system.

You cannot purchase an individual Maneuver with Limitations, also in accordance with the rules of the system.

Re: [Character] Jiggawatt

what export format is that?

It's currently the Default Print Template export....inserted into the forums with the newly created BBCode (you'll find the code on each of the characters in the HDv3 Vault).

There's a new project going to create a new/better format for these characters....we'll see what develops.

Re: Is there no longer a Downloads page on the Hero website?

No' date=' it's not. There used to be a page on the site where you could start at the beginning of the FAQ's and read through them from start to finish if you wished (plus downloadable PDF and Palm formats). Now perhaps there's a way to manipulate the database to do that, but that is nowhere near as straightforward as simply posting the text to read in a browser.[/quote']

Ruleset: Hero System Fifth Edition, Revised

Section: All

 

(not terribly hard to figure out, IMO). You couldn't do this on the old site, by the way -- you had to browse by section.

 

or...if you want to go even further above and beyond the capabilities of the previous version, you can select

 

Ruleset: All

Section: All

 

 

Or, if you're like most folks, you're after specific information, wherein you can select a ruleset, section, and specific keywords to look for.

 

 

Or, if you're of a mind to maintain your own offline (PDF or otherwise) copy of the FAQ, you can browse by last update time, looking for anything that has been modified since you last synched up.

Re: Is there no longer a Downloads page on the Hero website?

Databases have nothing (whatsoever) to do with readability.

The presentation of the FAQs is identical to what it was before (same sections, same entries, etc). The ability to filter and search for exactly what you're looking for is what's new.

Re: Is there no longer a Downloads page on the Hero website?

The PDF version(s) were not maintained by DOJ.

The new databased FAQs are easier for DOJ to maintain, easier for users to find the entries they're looking for, and easier for those who wish to create PDF versions of the FAQs (or other offline copies) to find changed/updated entries.

If/when PDFs are updated, they would be posted to the Free Stuff section.

Re: Creating a Martial Art

I'd say that they both have mental training, so that just leaves the philosophy. I'm not really sure what kind of a philosophy one can develop living in solitude in a mountain cave. So I'm still not clear on what that philosophy is. Can you give me an example? You mentioned hapkido. Can you give an example of a philosophical idea or principle of hapkido?

I can certainly try, though take all that follows with the caveat mentioned above: I've only been doing this for 11 years now...and only 3-4 days a week at that. I'm still "young" in the martial arts.

You can get a very good taste of some of the philosophy involved in Hapkido by looking at the Korean flag. Start with the four trigrams around the outside: Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. The positioning of each trigram relative to the others has meaning. Going around the trigrams in a circle, earth/fire fire/air air/water water/earth. That's the creation cycle. Going across the trigrams to their opposites, you have the destruction cycle: fire/water, earth/air.

These four elements pervade life. You can describe movements as being "strongly rooted in earth" (and best countered with a movement that is rooted in air). You can similarly describe health and the body in general with the four elements (very similar to Chinese Healing Arts and an EXTREMELY large amount of knowledge to even begin to explain), including not only describing ailments, but healing them as well. People's mentalities and thought patterns can be described using the four elements. And so on.

The four element theory is used both in the fighting arts and throughout everyday life -- it's part of the basic philosophy in hapkido.

And we haven't even touched on the um-yang in the center of the flag

That guy that goes up onto the mountain to create his new martial art goes through this whole thought process (yes, I know that it happens often in the stories, I was saying it does not happen in real life). He comes up with his theory of how life works and bases his movements off of that theory. Or he already has a theory of how life works (Buddhism, etc.) and goes up to the mountain to ponder this and come up with movements that fit into his beliefs of life and how energy flows.

If he doesn't do this, then he's not a martial artist -- he's a fighter. This is what we keep coming back to, I think.

You've said that you can see the value of a KS in martial arts, but you don't see the creator of an art as having enough to warrant a KS. What you're describing in that case is a talented fighter -- someone who has come up with a fighting style and nothing more. If you want to have someone come up with a new martial art, then part and parcel with that practice is the development/understanding of the philosophy and system used to create/refine the movements for the art.

Someone off topic, but I can't help but be reminded of something I heard someone say once (don't remember who): "It has to go through a period of at least a hundred years of persecution and oppression before it can truly be called a religion." After Moses brought down the ten commandments, there was no body of knowledge to justify a KS: Jewish Law. The entirety of the precepts of the religion were on those two stone tablets. If they had a printing press, they could have put it on a half-sheet of paper. That's all there was, at that moment.

Totally false. First off, the Jewish religion existed long before Moses (else he would not have had any "people" to lead out of Egypt). It started (formally) with Abraham. Even with Abraham, there was a formal body of knowledge involved. If you want to go the whole religious angle, the beginning of the knowledge and story for the Jewish religion would start at Creation in Eden and move on from there. Quite a bit of background before Abraham even got into the picture. If you want to go with more of a real point of view (but stick to the story of Abraham), there was quite a bit of story, thought, and philosophy involved when Abraham lived, which he taught to his family (and so on). He based his beliefs and his teachings on those that came before him (and some heavy conversations with G-d).

Re: Creating a Martial Art

First off, I really wasn't (and still am not) trying to be insulting -- I just think we're talking past each other.

Yes. And as I've said before' date=' there certainly are real benefits to buying a KS in a Martial Art. You get those benefits if you buy them. If you don't, you don't. The benefit, or rather the source of the benefit is that you have the body of knowledge of that style. If the style has only just been invented, then there is not yet any such body of knowledge.[/quote']

And here is where I think we have the main misunderstanding.

 

There are really only two general ways to develop a new martial art:

 

1. You train for a long period of time in a core art (with other, corrollary arts), mastering both the fighting systems and the philosophies...and eventually reach a point where you decide to branch out and make your own refinements. Think of it like merging different styles together and putting your own touch in. There is a VERY large amount of background to this new art -- a rather substantial knowledge base that the creator would have.

 

2. (this really doesn't happen) You go off on your own (typically to a nice, secluded, mountain cave). You ponder the vagaries of life, do lots of pushups, practice techniques, observe the fighting abilities of various critters (ostensibly descending from your mountain cave to do so, unless you're practicing bat-style fighting). You come up with a new philosophy/way of life and a system of movements for fighting. You do this after a lot of time and thought. Time spent developing your body of knowledge for your KS. I mention the time bit because during the time that it takes to train your body to adjust/learn the movements, you are also working on your philosophy (assuming that you want your character to be developing a martial art and not just a fighting style). You create both the physical movements as well as the mental discipline/training that define your art. There is a HUGE amount of thought that goes into this. Your KS represents how well you've done this.....have you thought of everything? Are there things that simply haven't occurred to you? Conflicts within your philosophy? Etc.

 

 

Again, a fighter may be a better/more capable combatant than a martial artist. That's not what the distinction is about. What distinguishes a martial artist from a fighter is the philosophy and mental training that goes into their life and work. You say above that you can see the in-game benefits to buying a KS for your martial art, what I'm trying to get across (and where I think we're having a disconnect) is that you can't create a martial art without building that background -- a new martial art takes a LOT of work to develop and the philosophy and knowledge of the background of that new art (where it came from, what inspired it, why things work they way they do, why things were left out/included, etc) is entirely appropriate to represent through that single KS.

Re: Creating a Martial Art

Phil, you really just don't seem to understand what the martial arts (versus fighting) are all about. I'm not trying to insult or impune here, just please try to listen to what folks are telling you.

There is a fundamental difference between a fighter and a martial artists. Where the lines start to blur is that a large part of martial art training is fighting -- a martial artist is a fighter, but a fighter is not (necessarily) a martial artist. Programming terms: MartialArtist extends Fighter.

Quantifying specifically where the difference lies is tricky -- anyone with experience in or knowledge of the martial arts knows and can recognize the difference....but it's difficult to put into words, particularly since you seem insistent that those words adhere to Hero System constructs.

Let me try this:

If I am creating a Chess master, I would give him both KS: Chess as well as PS: Chess. They're complimentary rolls, representing different aspects of that individual's training. You can get into the differences between PS and KS to determine the specific aspects that each represents, but that's really between you and your GM and is of very little interest to me (I tend to think of PS as the practical, gameplay-related and the KS as history, theory, etc.). Together, the two allow you to talk a good game. You can impress other players.

A child prodigy would likely only have the PS -- he's extremely gifted at playing the game, but has little knowledge of the background and history.

A veteran master would have both. He could talk to other players and evaluate both their background in the game as well as their skill. He could identify the prodigy versus the veteran player.

And yes, I would be more worried about the veteran master.

One thing that I see repeatedly in this discussion of someone creating their own martial art is a rather serious misconception about how someone goes about creating an art. It is never done in a vacuum.

Joe Jutsu (if it is to be assumed that it is an "actual" martial art and not just a repackaged version of a poorly-learned Ju-Jutsu -- something that you get all too much of these days), would be based on years of study of other arts. Typically years of study of one main art with one or more corrolaries -- the guys that just hop from system to system rarely progress very far.

Joe would have significant knowledge of the arts and of philosophy. You could choose to represent this by purchasing 2-6 different KS's (for each of the art forms and philosophies that he has studied)....but that wouldn't really represent Joe Jutsu. Joe Jutsu and the KS related to it is about what he has selected from those other disciplines and why. Both movements as well as philosophies.

A final side note on the learning of maneuvers themselves (may help in understanding the amount of time and work and study of other systems that goes into creating a new martial art):

The body learns through "muscle memory". People who "re-learn" how to walk after a spinal cord injury do not regrow neural pathways -- the neural pathways they used to walk have been severed. They teach their body to use different pathways to control their legs and balance. At first, this is extremely clumsy. Over time, they get better and better at it as their body gets used to firing those pathways and the pathways "widen".

Martial arts training is little different -- you perform the same movements over and over again, training your body. Neural pathways are "widened" -- increasing your reflexes and decreasing your response times (the time it takes for your muscles to fire after a stimulus is registered by your brain).

Your body is also changed in more obvious physiological ways -- the "spongy" structure at the surface of your skeleton is collapsed/condensed due to the repeated and increasing stresses that you place on it. Your skeleton becomes denser....stronger. The guys that do breaking competitions take this to an extreme -- if you tried to do what they regularly do, you could mirror the movement perfectly, firing every muscle at the right time, having the perfect alignment, etc.....and you would still shatter your own bones. I've seen guys do head butts to break bricks that would kill a normal person. It's the result of a LOT of training and discipline.

Joe, in order to create Joe Jutsu, would need to go through this whole training regimen.

Now, you can say that he did this in much the same way that a Marine goes through combat training -- that would give him the physical abilities and make him an excellent fighter. But it would not make him a martial artist.

If he is creating a new martial art and not just a new way of fighting (which we all have and do -- you move differently than I do), he would have to have been training for years in the martial arts. Both in the fighting arts as well as the philosophy and mental disciplines.

In game terms, when a martial artist talked to Joe (the guy that didn't have a KS), there would be no doubt in their mind that Joe was just a fighter. He would not have the requisite knowledge or background to converse with them about the martial arts.

When a martial artist talked to Joe (the guy that did have a KS), even if he didn't agree with Joe's philosophy/style, he would know that Joe was a studied martial artist.

Giving practical benefits to someone being a proficient martial artist vs. just a fighter is entirely in the purview of the GM -- much like giving practical benefits to the veteran chess master vs. the child prodigy.

Re: Creating a Martial Art

I think that the main reason for our differing opinions is exactly what you state above: you don't know what distinguishes a martial artist from a fighter. I'll try to explain, but with the VERY large caveat that I've only been studying for 11 years now and am still extremely "young" in the arts.

A fighter is someone who is skilled in...well...fighting. The guys that get into bar fights....street thugs, that kind of guy. They're extremely tough. They know how to fight -- how to throw a punch, kick, how to avoid an attack, etc. They're skilled in using their environment, evasion, attack, all of that.

A martial artist begins as a fighter. You learn how to attack, how to evade, how to block/parry.

What distinguishes the two is what I refer to as philosophy -- part of the mental training that comes with the martial arts. There is a common groundwork for the philosophy in the martial arts -- one that you see almost universally....but it's difficult to explain/put into words. It's perhaps best expressed by looking at the differences between martial artists and fighters.

A fighter is a street tough. He will frequently be found in fights. You can typically goad a fighter pretty easily (bump into him in a bar, start acting tough....they'll come at you to prove a point).

Conversely, martial artist is typically the LAST person you'll find in a fight. I have studied with some martial arts masters (many of them sadly passed, now). To a man, they have all been some of the most peaceful people I have ever met. The guys that you really want to hang out with and just talk to over drinks in the pub.

The philosophy goes deeper than that, of course. In game terms, you could explain any number of effects through the philosophy and study of martial arts -- from higher EGO to Resistance to enhanced attack damage and defenses.

The creator of a martial art is not someone who exists in a vacuum. No one has ever created a martial art from nothing -- they base it on what they have learned from others. The philosophies, beliefs, and practices of the art can be seen in the arts that the founder learned and integrated.

The KS of the founder is a merging of his knowledge of these varied arts -- not so much his understanding of each art on its own (that is best represented by individual KS's of the various arts), but of his understanding of the principles of the other arts as they integrate together into the art he has created.

You can teach anyone how to throw a punch or a kick. It takes a special breed to become a good fighter. Fewer still can move on to become a true martial artist -- something that I'm still working on.

Re: Creating a Martial Art

I would not require a KS because there simply is no body of knowledge to know about the martial art in question. If Joe Blow goes out and invents his own martial art, the entire story of Joe-jutsu is:

 

Joe Blow invented Joe-Jutsu. The End.

 

Sure you could include a few more details as to why and how the art was invented, but I wouldn't charge points for knowledge that fits on a one-page pamphlet. In HERO, you're supposed to pay points for things that are *useful*. And KS: Joe-Jutsu simply isn't useful.

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from in a slightly different perspective and (hopefully) address what appear to be your concerns above:

You can say the exact same thing as you say above about ANY martial art.

The entire story of Hapkido is:

Choi Yong Sool invented Hapkido. The end.

From this perspective, you appear to be arguing against ANY KS: [some Martial Art]. I argue that this makes the character little more than a skilled fighter, not a martial artist.

KS: Hapkido would represent knowledge of the history of hapkido (your one page pamphlet, here)....but also the philosophy of the art. Why do you move in a particular way? Why is the fighting stance a long stance with a (generally) low defensive position with the hands? Why are there so many movements that are similar to Ju-Jutsu? Why are the movements different from classic Ju-Jutsu? Why are there movements that are similar to Taekwondo? Why do the stances differ from classic Taekwondo (slightly)?

Etc.

Not just the story/history behind them, but the reasons behind them. The philosophy and the history combine to create a KS.

And the answers to any given question (roll during gameplay) change over time as the founder of the art refines his art and the corresponding philosophy.

Without the KS: Hapkido, Choi Yong Sool was an exceptionally talented fighter who (ostensibly) trained in traditional Korean Mu Sool before (still a child) he was taken to Japan as a servant, where he studied Aiki-Jutsu under Sokaku Takeda.

With the KS: Hapkido, Choi Yong Sool was an exceptionally talented martial artist who created a unique philosophy, which is still evolving today. The basics of the philosophy and fighting art can be found in a combination of the philosophies and movements of Aiki-Jutsu, Judo, and Taekwondo/Mu Sool. The specifics of the actual philosophy of his art (why movements are the way they are, why certain elements exist and others do not, etc.) can fill many volumes of books. Much like any other formal martial art. He would be able to look at another martial artist and gain insight into his style and philosophy by drawing comparisons to his own (note: not Analyze Style -- this is out of combat knowledge and "higher level" combat knowledge).

Everything you describe above sounds very much like skilled fighters, not martial artists. There is a strong amount of philosophy, understanding of history and traditions (even in the creation of a new art), healing arts, and biomechanics/physics that go into the creation of a martial artist. My statement (above and here) is that the KS is how you represent these non-combat studies in the Hero System.

Re: Creating a Martial Art

Yeah' date=' I'd only Require a KS when you syart trying to explain/teach it to others.....Just because someone can fight, does not mean they can teach it, or really explain it to others...or even them selves.[/quote']

That's the key, IMO.

 

Martial Arts begin as simply learning how to move...and how others move. What separates them from simple fighting is the philosophy. Why certain techniques work....why they don't work....techniques that have little to no physical aspect at all....that kind of thing.

 

Does it make sense for the creator of an art to have a KS in that art (and potentially not know something about it)? Absolutely. The knowledge and philosophy of an art is continually evolving. Failing a KS roll could mean that he had thought of something years back but simply can't recall the mental path that he went down (and has thus forgotten the knowledge) or that he has moved past something that he once believed and has found it to be in error (or, at least, not 'right' for his art).

 

It sounds like you're looking to mirror real-world martial arts in-game. As such, I would challenge you to find a true master (creator of a new system, master of an existing system, etc.) who is not constantly learning and changing his philosophy and practices. I've had the good fortune to meet and train with some legends in the modern martial arts and the one thing that has struck me about each and every one of them is that they are consummate students -- they are constantly looking at their art and others and learning. They don't become 'rigid' in their thinking -- those guys are very short-lived in the arts.

 

I think that a KS (with a real roll -- one that can be failed) is a great way to represent a knowledge of the philosophy that you are developing and the understanding that it is a never-ending process -- one which changes and evolves over time. One in which you are constantly correcting yourself. A player that purchases that KS and buys up the levels would (IMO) distinguish himself from the player that simply purchased Maneuvers with no KS -- the former would be a martial artist, the latter would be a fighter.

Re: Seeking advice on campaign design

Bumping this thread up, due to a somewhat late approval from the moderation queue (new user).

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

This thread has degenerated enough. Two warnings and an infraction have been issued due to the posting style of certain individuals here.

For those of you trying to engage in useful debate, my apologies, but this has gone on long enough.

Re: Making Growth power Inherent

Well...you're going to get a number of answers on this (many of the debating the logic behind the official ruling within 5th Edition that I'll outline below).

The official ruling for 5th edition is that Powers like Growth and Shrinking are for characters that can change their size. If you want the character to just be big or small, you buy the appropriate abilities (increased STR, increased PD/ED, Stretching, etc.) and take the limitations as Disads on the character (Distinctive Feature, Physical Lim: Easier to hit (-X DCV), etc.)

Re: It Takes Balls To Play This Sort Of Music

To me it really looks like CGI so perhaps I ought to see what snopes has to say. But below is the story I got with the link to the video.

 

 

 

Amazing Music Machine

False according to Snopes -- part of a CGI video produced by Animusic (and available on their website).

Re: Teleport UAA Question

Both.

100kg for inanimate objects (i.e. you'd have to seriously bump up the purchase of UAA to TPort Mt. Rushmore).

1 "person" for living targets (regardless of size/weight).