Simon

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Only in so much as relates to moving in increments of 1m instead of 2m. But for the most part I agree with you.

 

Never-the-less this is an issue related to the use of 1m units of measure instead of 2m units of measure. Which was part of the OP's initial questioning.

No, it is not. It is a change in the cost structure of the ability that has absolutely nothing to do with a change from "hexes" to 1m increments.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Yes' date=' but I'd argue that it is a change in the function of Turn Mode, or how Movement Levels interact with them. It is not somehow "caused" by changing the unit of measurement.[/quote']

Exactly right.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Um, your opinion of the ridiculousness of this thread is meaningless to me. I have been trying to keep calm while posting, and refrain from insulting people. Even with your removal of your "outburst" I will say I am still not happy with the attitude you have been showing towards me.

 

As far as your "solution", thats all nice and good. I probably will keep my games using hex maps with a 2m:1h scale. But if that was all there was to this topic for me I would have posted so and left it at that.

 

I posted all of those questions because I want to understand why my group has been having issues with scaling, and other groups haven't. I am actually interested in getting actual answers to the questions I put forth (as opposed to your :face palm:). If it can't happen, then it can't happen. But you seem to believe that I am an unreasonable stick-in-the-mud person who can't accept differing opinions or suggestions. Thats just not true.

 

If someone could give me answers I understand better, perhaps I might actually start using a varied scale for combat. Wow, isn't that an interesting prospect. Right now, I am simply having trouble with certain aspects of scaling combat. Sorry, but sometimes people have differing experiences with material and discussing it helps figure out shy

Let's go back to extreme basics, shall we?

Forget roleplaying -- mapmaking 101:

Maps are scaled representations of "reality". Typically drawn from a "top-down" perspective (as if you were overhead, looking straight down on the subject of the map). Why are they scaled? Because the world is a tad too big to represent conveniently on paper. So you scale it down when you draw it.

Now, let's talk for a moment about scale. Does scale matter? Of course it does. Pick too big of a scale, and you'll never be able to view the entire map. Think of a 1-1 scale drawing of a single US city -- it would be the size of that city (obviously). Not terribly useful. Amusing to watch someone try to fold it back up, but not really useful. Likewise, too small of a scale may make the map useless for what you're attempting to do with it. If you're looking to locate someone's house, looking at a map of the U.S.A. won't help you too much.

The scale of the map coupled with the precision of the drawing and the precision to which the user is willing to measure distances and plot changes determines the accuracy. People are generally willing/able to track changes on a map within 1/4" or so pretty easily. Much finer than that, and we tend to get lost in the noise of our own errors.

For a map which is meant to track a hand to hand combat in a storytelling setting, you're looking to have accuracy on the order of about a foot or so. If you draw the map to the scale of 1" (on the map) equals 2m (in reality), you're pretty close to this limit (1/4" = ~1 1/2 feet).

So...there's the origin of 1" = 2m on a map for combat.

Now note that at no point have we talked about grid overlays. This is just a map drawn on paper.

Grid overlays on maps exist to make gauging distances easier. Instead of hauling out a ruler, I can eyeball the map and see that point A is roughly 1/2 of the way through this grid....and point B is about 1/4 of the way through this other one. Counting the grids between them, I can come up with how many grids there are between point A and point B.

Now, if a grid is 1cm and the scale of the map is 1in/1m then this doesn't help me too much. If a grid is 1in, however, this helps me quite a bit in determining the "real world" distance between point A and point B.

What shape are the grids? Whatever you like. Any repeating, interlocking pattern works, though regular shapes are best. Typically equilateral triangles, squares, or regular hexagrams....though even a nice houndstooth pattern would technically work out for you.

So...we draw our map to scale, overlay a grid to help assist with eyeball measuring, and head into roleplaying.

It sounds like you're running into trouble because you're setting the scale of your map and then making the added approximation that only one "thing" can be in a given grid on the map. Or you can only move in whole grid increments. This ties the granularity/accuracy of your combat to the scale of your map and the size of the grid pattern that you choose. If you scale your map to 1"/2m and then draw in 1/4" grids....this isn't too bad (due to previously discussed limits/margins of error). If you scale your map to 1"/2m and then draw in 1" grids....then you've roughly quartered your accuracy. You start approximating. You have stated a tendency to "round in the player's favor" for these approximations, skewing the numbers still further.

That's your lookout.....and it has absolutely nothing to do with changing the units of measure on Powers from inches (map scaling) to meters (real world).

Changing the units of measure on powers from inches to real world meters has one effect and one effect only: it gives an implied increase in accuracy of mesurements -- assuming that previously you could not purchase a 1/2" increment.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

I think you're still utterly and completely failing to actually think this through.

How do you measure turn mode? The same way you always did. Use a hex map if that floats your boat. Or just eyeball it. "That's about 60 degrees -- 1/6 of a circle" is just as valid a measurement as hex facings or anything else you care to come up with. You're creating hard rules in your head that you dare not violate lest you somehow make things unrealistic/unbalanced....when it's those very "hard rules" that you're creating that's doing the unbalancing and making things unrealistic.

Why would you EVER restrict an arbitrary unit of measurement (a hex) to contain only one character/person? What happens if your map is on a grand scale (say, the entire US)? Only one person can fit in a given hex....making the total population of the US about 2500 people (assuming a 50x50 hex map). That's....sad.

Why would you round somebody's movement (or AOE) to fit on your arbitrary hex? "Each hex on this map is 10m. My character has 25m of Flight, so I'll move 3 hexes." No. Your character has 25m of Flight. You'll move 25m. On the map, that will be approx. 2 1/2 hexes. If this bugs you from some OCD perspective and you simply MUST put characters in the center of each arbitrary hex on the map, then by all means, go ahead....and keep track of their movement, either going up or down a hex as appropriate to even things out.

Rounding rules affect character creation. They have absolutely nothing to do with units of measurement on a map. Stop confusing yourself.

Just use a map. If you want to have a map that shows a large area and still deal on a fine level of detail when needed, then do what has been suggested above -- which just happens to be the way things work in the real world (take street maps, for example): You have the large-scale map to show everything at a high level and then individual finer-scale maps to handle the individual actions.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

You work in a fundamentally different mode from just about everyone else. And you seem perplexed that everyone else doesn't want to follow your method...or that things are setup based on what the rest of the world tends to favor.

I cannot even fathom BEGINNING to play with a GM that set the area of an attack or the speed at which a character could run based on the scale of a map in a given battle. That's inane. You seem to favor that method -- good on you. But don't act surprised or affronted when the system changes to accommodate those of us (who comprise the VAST VAST VAST majority) who prefer internal consistency within our system rather than an arbitrary changing of the scales and power of abilities based on the level of detail that a GM wants to work into their map.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Realism isn't real. It's just realism.

And internal consistency has nothing to do with realism. Everything to do with good storytelling, however.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

I don't know what kind of comics you're reading, but those that I've read and followed have a little thing called "internal consistency"

I absolutely would NEVER play in a campaign in which the GM decided that power levels and abilities were arbitrary based on the scale that he decided on for the map.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Now let's replay this with movement units. The GM decides that the scale of the map is five meters. It doesn't matter how big the scale is, it's chosen solely for dramatic discretion. (Hero is a cinematic game, after all.) No matter what you use, hexes, meters, a protractor, a ruler, squares, or dodecahedrons (Preferably without a talking cactus, Dr. Who fans), you move 37 of those, and I move 35. The only thing the GM needs to do is describe how big the area is, and then set the scale of movement for the scene and draw objects on the map. There should be no difference pointwise between most playstyles. Simply change the objects and the distances to suit the feel and theme of the campaign, rather than build in a realistic measurement. If I decide that it's one meter, it's one meter, and turn mode works the same. If I decide that it's five meters, it's five meters, and turn mode works the same. The game plays out exactly the same way, except that the scale of combat is what the GM wants it to be, rather than an arbitrary selection of distances. It's easier to create the "Feel" of Justice League, or the "Feel" of Avengers, or the "Feel" of Watchmen by constructing objects and distances to match the tone of the scene, rather than a "Bigger, Better, Faster, Harder, More" mentality that seems all too prevalent in gaming these days.

Now let's have the character figure out how big their AOE blast is. Not "how many feet across" or "how many hexes"...but how big. How do people normally do this? By seeing what it covers on the map. What actual features it covers. "Wow, that blast covered the entire football stadium!"

Battle 1: the GM has the scale set to 5 meters because he wants the battle to take place in a football stadium (he has a large map). My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers a 125 meter radius. That's pretty much the entire field. Cool.

Battle 2: the GM has the scale set to 1/2 meter because he wants the battle to take place inside of a school gymnasium. My "12d6 Blast AOE 25 unit radius" covers 12.5 meters. That's a smallish portion of the gym floor. That's....kinda sad.

Why the difference between battles? Why would you EVER have the scale of the map determine the strength of your powers or how far you can run? That's like saying that the scale of the map should determine how big the buildings are. "Well, I only have this size model for the houses, so this week, the houses are 150 feet tall due to the scale of the map. Next week, they'll be 500 feet tall, since the map will cover a larger area."

Re: power design feedback

Yes. The normal/default behavior for an AoE attack is for you to target the hex that forms the starting point/origin of the AoE. Any characters in the affected area are "hit"/affected by the AoE without additional rolls. Selective and Nonselective require that you roll to hit each target in the affected area individually.

Re: power design feedback

I don't think "Nonselective" is what you're looking for. The default AoE should suffice for the effect you're after (being indiscriminate of friend or foe in the affected area).

Nonselective means that you'll need to make an attack roll against each person in the affected area, rather than the Blast simply blanketing everything in the area automatically.

Re: FTL Travel

No. I'm saying that it defaults to whatever SPD makes both good common sense and good dramatic sense for the character/situation

Re: Megamovement DCV errata ?

Watch your tone.

Makes perfect sense to me. As luck would have it, it makes sense to Steve Long as well. Frankly, I don't see what the confusion is - it works for both game balance and dramatic sense.

Re: FTL Travel

And be able to make more course corrections.

If that wasn't a concern, then they could reduce their SPD for the duration and save on END.

Re: FTL Travel

FTL is purchased in terms of distance / time. For example:

FTL Travel (6 Light Years/day)

If you use the power at full strength for one day, you will travel 6 light years. During the course of that day, you would spend END on every phase.

Not terribly difficult, IMO....

Edit: If the question is how much END do you spend per Phase, I can't see how there's even a question/concern there. You calculate it just like any other ability in the Hero System. The aforementioned instance of FTL costs 32 points. Apply Costs Endurance to it and it will cost you 3 END per Phase that it is active.

Re: Megamovement DCV errata ?

You're making multiple assumptions here in order to come up with the statement of "it's wrong/inconsistent"

First and foremost, you're assuming that the DCV bonuses _should_ be the same for both forms of Movement. Where you come up with this notion is beyond me. Megamovement is _decidedly_ different from normal movement. See scaling. Why is it difficult to accept that there are different DCV bonus structures in place for different forms of Movement?

Re: Sixth Edition Characters

I have both the last fully 5e HD and the new HD with both

I have both open(2 monitors)

when I open a character in the new HD and convert to the new template yep it breaks them ,but since I cannot do a copy paste of background info(this is just text so it does not break)

I then just go through everything and correct it(adding what where figured stats)

 

I have the old version of the character open so I can see what I did before and how it was arranged before

faster than having to rekey everything but not a converter

Realize:

1. You have copy/paste. As detailed in the documentation and numerous threads in the forums: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V -- standard keyboard controls for copy, cut, paste (respectively).

2. Applying a 6E template to a 5E character will likely break things behind the scenes and have unexpected consequences on the character. Hidden (and uneditable) costs, etc.

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

so as we wait patiently for the pdfs to become available online somewhere' date=' what were the significant changes to adjustment powers?[/quote']

Err....they are available for download (online store).

Re: Sixth Edition Characters

A Møøse once bit my sister ...

Re: Sixth Edition Characters

Yup -- it's a lot like sleeping with your sister. Fun at first, but then it just gets awkward.

Re: Sixth Edition Characters

HD6 will support both the 5E and 6E rules, but there will not be any auto-conversion between the two. In fact, taking an existing 5E character and simply changing the template to a 6E template is likely to break a number of things and have generally undesirable results within the application.

The recommended conversion method is to re-key the character using the 6th edition rules template.

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

NCM is no longer a Complication - it is a campaign standard.

I should point out that this had a bit of a beneficial effect on HD that folks may like -- the NCM limits for each Characteristic have been moved into the Campaign Rules screens and are now set via the user interface.

Re: Hero Designer for 6th Edition

will there be at least a plain text or some other "simple" (From someone who never got the hand of making templates) form to use while you finish it up?

That's largely in the hands of the users -- I'm sure multiple versions will go up to the vault very quickly.

ghost-angel has a simple one that he was using during testing....I'll be making some changes to the vault over the weekend (to indicate 5E vs. 6E for the various files that are posted) and will ask him to post it once I'm done.

Re: Hero Designer for 6th Edition

I should mention that I am still working on the default HD6 export format (the character sheet format that's going to appear in the back of the book).

I _may_ have it done in time for the initial release of HD6, but there's likely to be a bit of an offset between the release of the software and the availability of export formats for 6th Edition characters.

I'll have more information by the end of the weekend (since I hope to get a chunk of work done on the export format by then).

Re: Hero Designer for 6th Edition

Pretty much as soon as 6E is launched -- they're both slated to go live (available in the Online Store) at the same time.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #8: APG Goodies

To answer the question on HD: the 6E characteristics were handled by:

1. Simply removing the figured components (e.g. "PDINCREASE", "PDINCREASELEVELS") from the template definitions. The 5E templates still have them and they are still available for use in custom templates, so, yes, you can create a custom 6E template that uses figured Characteristics.

2. Adding in new characteristics for the newly added OCV, DCV, OMCV, and DMCV.

3. Removing the template definition for COM (again, still available for custom templates).

The 10 available custom characteristics are still there and ready for use in custom templates....about the only thing that I can think of that hasn't been done (yet) is to add in attributes for the new characteristics to be based off of figured values.