Dauntless

eepjr24- Watch Rob Roy at the very end of the movie to watch Liam Neeson's character armed with a Claymore fighting Tim Roth's character armed with a long sword (a real long sword that's incredibly thin...almost rapier like). The interesting thing is seeing what Rob Roy has to do in that fight to win (ouch). Then again, it's not as painful as what he does to Tim Roth's character (ouch). In a sort of reverse situation, in the "battle" between Magua and Hawkeye's father in Last of the Mohicans, the much larger father totally destroys Magua with some pretty adroit fighting (all the more so for being an old coot). For a fight in armor, check out the fight scene between King Arthur and Lancelot in Excalibur. Note especially how Lancelot tears up Arthur's armor. Another example of bashed in armor is earlier in the movie, when King Uther Pendragon gets ambushed by the survivors of Cornwallis's men. And another good scene is watching Gawaine and Lancelot duke it out. This movie is probably the best movie to watch to see armored combatants fight.

I think highly trained warrior-monks should be as powerful as equivalent level mages. In real life, the Shaolin temple was destroyed because a relative handful of Monks defeated an army (well, it wasn't an Army army, but they defeated a vastly larger rebel force). Realizing how powerful they were, the Emperor decided they were more dangerous as potential enemies than beneficial as potential allies. In Japan, the Yamabushi usually defeated the Samurai they fought against in pitched battles. So I seperate warriors that know martial arts from warrior-monks like the Shaolin and Yamabushi. In some way mages and warrior-monks have similar drives. A mage must slave away at the text books for most of the day, and a warrior monk trains not only his body and fighting skills, but his mind as well (which is what seperates him from the more common man-at-arms types of professions). But this "one-dimensionality" is their weakness. Most mages know little of physical skills like climbing, horseback riding, survival, combat, etc. Even warrior-monks will be somewhat disadvantaged in this regard....as Shaolin didn't learn how to ride horses normally (they could if they left the temple to do errands) and they too didn't always learn skills like survival (they were monks...so peasants gave them food and they tilled and planted their own). And although many Shaolin and yamabushi were drunkards, womanizers and general louts...they do have a code which prevents them from doing things other warriors wouldn't be concerned about. In FH terms, imagine creating a martial arts character with an "iron shirt" technique (give him body armor defined as iron chi-kung skills). He has the advantage of having resistant defenses without any weight. To prevent all characters from doing this...you might want to require that they have to have at least 15pts worth of specific martial techniques plus PS and KS skills. I'd also allow martial arts characters to have damage reduction in a limited form. And the martial characters ability to perform NND and AVLD attacks makes them a fearsome opponent even against armored foes (even if the martial artist has no weapons himself!). In some ways, I'd wonder why FH characters wouldn't ALL want to be martial artists. In real life without a "points based" system...martial artists were more powerful than those with little training (for example, pitting samurai against peasant spearmen). The difference of course is training and real world experience. And not just any old training, but intense training. Imagine the difference between living in Sparta, and living in Thebes. The Spartans lived their whole life around the concept of war and being tough. The Thebians however, like Athens, had their warriors, but they were more interested in other pursuits as well. How do you think turned out the better warriors (warrior vs. warrior)? The problem though is that the Hero System allows a player to make any character he wants....even if in real life such types of characters were rare (imagine playing a Star Wars roleplaying game set 5 years after Return of the Jedi where everyone wants to play a Jedi trained by Luke Skywalker himself). There's nothing stopping that from happening in Hero short of GM intervention. Not everyone can become a real warrior-monk, but in Hero, anyone can. So it sort of creates problems in the group dynamics.

Mr. Negative- I agree entirely. I think what alot of people worry about is the combat efficiency of each kind of character while forgetting all the rest of life outside of combat or even of the different combat environments they'll be fighting in. Like the example you gave about AVLD or NND attacks (which I would assume come from a martial artist of some kind) there can be situations like fighting in mud or slippery terrain where the LW's DEX is negated. So you're right, it all boils down to strategy, and fighting only when you have to fight and on your terms if possible. When people complain about one kind of fighter being better than the other, they look at it from a narrowly defined context. Usually pure combat in perfect fighting conditions. They never think about fighting on a narrow precipice, or fighting knee deep in mudd. They don't think about fighting grand melee battles where your character might be attacked by a flood of arrows (defined as an area attack so DEX doesn't help). They also don't think about what it's like before combat....sitting in your plate mail baking in the mid-day sun. They don't think about having to get up wearing 40lbs when you get knocked down (I think it should take more than a phase). Nor do they count the costs of repairing armor, or walking into town in the fantasy equivalent of being in a tank. For pure combat reasons, I'd say that neither fighter overall over many different combat contexts has an overall advantage. But when you factor in the environmental issues, the costs, and other non-combat related issues, I'd give the nod to the LW fighter who doesn't have to worry about these things. So what's the bottom line? Play the character you want to play....not what combat advantage you think one has. Because when these simulation exercises take place, they are always under ideal conditions without other variables thrown into the mix that real combat would. And personally, if as a GM every fight you have takes place on a nice open, level, dry, grassy field with temperatures in the low 70's....well, I say you should try to be more imaginative about your fights.

Actually I forgot about the -2 OCV since he's not using a blade anymore. So yeah, that will make that tactic somewhat useless unless he buys a martial manuever that adds +2 OCV, or he buys up his CSL to a 5pt level for HTH combat. As for the called shot tactic, I also forgot that the BODY and STUN multipliers only take effect for damage that gets past armor. So even with a placed shot that hits the head, the HW probably will take 0 BODY, but still takethe 16.5 STUN. Like I said though, I'd give a character wearing a plate mail with the faceplate down at least a -1 to his CV, and probably a -2. In which case if the faceplate was up, he just took 11BODY to the head (impairing his head knocking him out automatically). The LW has another option as well....holding his action and waiting for the HW to do something. Let's say the HW swings, and misses....well, the LW doesn't even have to block now (which is why blocks either have to be called before the attacker makes his roll, or abort to it). In some ways, blocking is a bad tactic because the HW already has such a low chance of hitting anyways and since they are equal SPD and the LW has a higher DEX, he'll automatically go first all the time anyways (one of the nice things about blocks is it sets up a character to go first). What I would do as an LW is try to disarm instead. Since the LW will go first, this is probably a better option...although he'll have a lower chance of doing so since his STR is weaker. Another option the LW character has is to abort his next action to "roll with the punch" to lessen damage. More than likely he'll succeed, taking only half damage and probably eliminating being stunned. Now, to inject some more realism....its very hard for someone with a light weapon like a rapier to block or parry someone wielding a much heavier weapon like a bastard sword. Imagine holding out a thin dowel and trying to block someone with a thick wooden rod at full speed....and you'll gt an idea. I've come up with a house rule that takes the difference between the STR min's of each weapon. If a character is trying to block a STR min 13 weapon (Bastard Sword) with a STR min 10 weapon (a rapier), he'll suffer a -3 OCV to block/parry. Disarms are affected by comparing whether you are delivering a coup a main "hit to the hand" or if you are literally trying to knock out the weapon from the opponents hand. However, hits to the hand are about as bad due to the small target (I don't make it a -6 though, since the target is coming to you, I make it a -4). Another option I considered was (STR min + character's STR) compared versus the other character's weapon and STR. This makes it much harder for highly dextrous characters to shrug off weapon blows from large weapons wielded by strong characters (they'll be better off dodging instead of blocking). So is there a "better" fighter? I don't think so. There is one other advantage HW fighters have...armor protects them from all directions and against surprise opponents every phase. In a huge melee battle with characters everywhere, it's possible you might get snuck up on from behind...in such a case it's almost guaranteed to be a hit. LW doesn't have armor, and his high DCV's won't help against attacks from unawares (unless he's got Defensive Manuever), so he'll get hit too. HW gets to factor in his armor...LW has much weaker armor and will probably get taken out. HW may or may not get taken out.

There is one trick an HW can use to even the odds....Grab. If the HW fighter can grab the LW, LW's mobility advantage is gone, and he has no armor to protect him now. When I used to spar against small fast guys...for some strange reason, they loved to go toe to toe with me (I'm about 6', 205lbs, and though not a slow lumbering ox, I'm not an agile fox either). Sometimes just to show them how stupid it was to do that, I'd grab ahold of their attacking arm or leg, and take them down, or sometimes just immobilize them so that they couldn't consistently lunge and duck. If you want to see a fight like this played out....watch the movie Rob Roy. Now since the HW fighter has a shield, this makes it impossible. But if he uses the Bastard Sword two handed, he could do this. However, he then sacrifices his DCV bonus. But since LW's damage is fairly insignificant, he should go ahead and probably risk this to attempt the grab. Another option is to buy a martial art that has a Block move followed by a grab or including a grab. Another option is a "bum rush", rushing into the opponent and knocking him to his feet (a takedown with a moveby or movethrough element). Against an agile opponent this is more difficult, though not impossible. Once an agile opponent is on his back though...his agility isn't really going to save him (-1/2 DCV unless he's trained in some kind of ground fighting art) This is the trick with playing these kinds of characters....the LW must use his stealth, accuracy and agility to dodge attacks. The HW fighter, being more burdened must end the fight as quickly as possible, but he also knows he can take more damage. This means he should wade into the fight very aggressively. The LW on the other hand must dance around and tire out his opponent or use his extreme dexterity to attack a weak spot. This is exactly how I've seen most real fights with large vs. small opponents work out. Whoever gets the first good hit in tends to win. Now there's a strategy the LW can use versus the HW. Aim for the head. If he uses the optional Head Shot (1d6+3 hit location) he has a 33% chance of hitting the head. Now me personally, if a player is in full plate, he's going to take a further OCV and DCV penalty for having his face plate down due to sensory restrictions. But even if you don't account for that, the LW will do maximum STUN...so on average he'll do a BODY of 11 (the average roll of 1 1/2d6 = 5.5) and a STUN of 27.5, and a max BODY of 18 (which is about a 5.5% chance of doing) and a STUN of 45. In the average damage scenario, the HW will take 16.5 STUN, more than enough to stun him, and he'll also take 4 BODY. This brings to point an issue I have with Hero System melee combat. First off is how easy it is to stun someone. I think the optional rule of having the STUN damage and applying each half to the defense will help cut down on this. Another option is to allow characters to make an EGO roll when they should be stunned. They should take a minus modifier for every point of BODY damage they've taken (reflecting the mind needing to concetrate on keeping the body alive rather than fully conscious). As it stands now, basically the first person to land a blow wins....which is not entirely realistic. I'd also consider giving bladed weapons a multipower of cutting or impaling attacks....the cutting attacks should take a -1 STUN modifier (cuts hurt, but aren't nearly as shock inducing as a good impaling stab or a powerful crushing blow which knocks the wind out of you or bangs your head around). Conversely the impaling attack should probably be AP, though not always. I could also conceivably allow a penetrating advantage, since it's possible that an impaling weapon won't penetrate the armor, but still leave a nasty dent that can cause damage. I wish the Hero system more specifically defined what exactly STUN is. Is it pain tolerance? Is it willpower? Is it shock resistance? Is it concussive resistance? While you could theoretically place limitations for all the above (-1/2 limitation, Only against Pain for example) then you have to create two damage tracks...one against weapons that create a lot of pain, and one that doesn't. And how much pain do certain weapons cause for that matter? The filipinos preferred using sticks to swords because they believed concussive strikes were more painful and dehabilitative than cuts or stabs causing the opponent to be stunned more easily (as an example, a cutting stab to the forehead of back of the head will be painful and cause a nasty scalp laceration....but it more than likely won't knock you out...OTOH, getting a similarly forceful blow with a lead pipe is probably going to knock you out). So the nebulous concept of STUN means that realistic depcitions of combat often have some strange effects that are hard to do without lots of tweaking and customization of weapons (like in the head case, lead pipes have a +1 STUN multiplier, "only in Head Shots or knee breaks"). It's little things like these that are going to cause GM's headaches in creating house rules to cover these situations. I know because if you have any players who want realism, they are going to whine about how certain things are implemented and how it's not "fair" that either they took more damage than they thought they should, or they believe that their own weapon should inflict more damage.

Well, realistically, there's nothing to prevent a Halfling style not to be similar to other human martial arts. If they had a warlike history against their own species, then they would have developed martial arts with attacks for similar sized opponents....meaning against humans they would probably get 2d+7 for most hit location rolls. If they had to battle it out against other larger races, then they would have had to adapt accrodingly. What would be the best style for a small opponent against a larger one? An internal style similar to Aikido, TaiChi, Bagua or Piqua would be good. Styles which are good at joint locks would also be good since some joints don't require that much leverage force to be manipulated to the point of pain (a good thing for a small less muscular race). Finally, a style which emphasizes ground fighting and throwing would be good....since a Halfling's lower center of gravity would be a boon. Also, it's harder to fight smaller opponents than you'd think. A larger opponent who doesn't know how to kick will have to punch or swing lower, meaning they shift their center of gravity more off center (leading to easier throws). Therefore Halfling styles would probably develop good kick type defenses (legsweeps, ankle or knee locks, etc). OTOH, Halfling styles would avoid hard style blocks since they don't have the strength to beat back a stronger opponents blow. Instead they will concetrate on dodging, and follow-up manuevers (a grab taken with the "followed by" dodge to simulate ducking out of a punch and intercepting the fist). Also, since Halflings will have shorter reaches, they must also close-in to grappling range with their attacker, meaning they will have to learn some very good escapes in case they get grabbed. Acrobatics would be very useful as it would make Halfling martial artists even harder to hit than they already would be (and having a lower center of gravity and being smaller...they should be slightly better at it than humans). For weapon elements, I think a Halfling would have two choices. Either they could be good at long range weapons to keep larger-sized opponents at bay (a "long staff" for them might be a short jo-staff to a human), or they may go to the logical conclusion that since in unarmed combat they have to get in really close, they may as well get good at "brawling" style weapons....things we'd think of as brass knuckles, daggers, cestus gloves and the like. They may also prefer throwing weapons (to keep opponents at bay) or indirect weapons (like chained, roped or sectional weapons) which are harder for opponents to block...since strong opponents would be able to block Halfling sized weapons with greater ease (the size of the weapon may be smaller, but the force is weaker behind the blow)

How is he gaining these skills? If it's done ala the Matrix, it could be done as a VPP with a limitation requiring a small download time (1 turn), and "Physical Skills only applicable in the Matrix". Depending on the special effect of how he learns skills, it could affect his ability to perform those skills. For example, in the Matrix, even if you downloaded "Kung Fu" skill, in the "real world" (which as it seems to be might not BE the real world) your muscles, ligaments, tendons and other structural body limits aren't trained to deal with the neurological capabilities of the skills themselves. In otherwords, for neuro-motor skills, you've got the neuro, but not the motor. In the Matrix however, your avatar isn't physically restricted, and you should be able to "bend" the rules of physics in order to make your body do feats it can't in the real world. Skills that are pure knowledge/comprehension based should be easily downloadable without much restrictions. Assuming your game world isn't based on some kind of Matrix-like world, how does he gain these skills? Is it like an absorbtion capability where he has to physically contact the person...perhaps transferring (copying) skills? Is he like the Marvel villain Taskmaster with his photographic reflexes....able to copy any movement he sees? If so you could put a limitation that he must watch a person for so many phases or turns to pick up a skill.

The greatest penalties for armor use should be on the long term effects of wearing armor. To put it bluntly, it's stupid to wear heavy armor all day long. In the battle for Stamford Bridge in 1066 (just before Hastings), the English caught Norwegians off guard and mostly out of armor...probably accounting a good deal for how they beat the Vikings (and why the losses they incurred here may have cost the English to lose against the Normans). Why weren't the Vikings wearing their chainmail? Because it was hot and they were tired. And remember, the Vikings were much larger and physically strong people compared to most other Europeans (King Harald Hardrada was almost 7' tall and over 300lbs...at a time when most europeans were about 5'4" or so....you can see why most Europeans were scared to death of the taller stronger Scandinavians). Also, some armor may not be restricting in movement, but it DOES make you slower to react. When you've got even just a pound or two on your arm, it's harder to react (as an exercise, wear a simple 1lb wrist weight and do simple tasks....your mobility isn't restricted, but you'll be slower at doing them). There's also the long terms costs of wearing armor as mentioned in FH. Armor must be repaired after taking damage, and it needs to be serviced or it "falls apart". In game effects, I would do the following: 1. Impose the limitation that a character does not get his free END recovery in segment 12. STR just means how much you can carry...it doesn't imply endurance at all (for example, some powerlifters might be able to bench press 600lbs for one rep....but they couldn't walk with a 80lb backpack all day....REC would be the applicable stat to use to make a character who had long term endurance). 2. Impose a 1END cost for every 10lbs of armor. 3. I would also subtract -1DEX for every point of DEF, but it only affects initiative and speed. When a character has 5pts of Armor, he loses 1 SPD (and it would take 15pts of DEF to lose 2 SPD). 4. I would also lose -1DEX for every 4 points of DEF that DOES affect Combat Values and DEX skill rolls (contrary to belief, armor is somewhat restrictive). 5. Either make armor ablative, or do the suggested keeping count of BODY of the armor itself. Plate gets bashed in, has the leather straps tear off (if you ever watch Excalibur...watch how King Arthur's armor gets torn up by Lancelot's attacks) and gaps are exposed. That should definitely make characters realize that armor has its price, and that skill of arms is just as important.

I think he's growing impatient though because of his age. He knows that even if he could extend his life past 100, the quality of his life will be worse and worse, even with his high technology. Time is his greatest enemy. So he may have realized he needed to gather his forces and build his strength in the beginning, but I wonder how patient he will be now? Granted, he has been sitting idle for 10 years which indicates a measure of patience. But this has ticked off 10 years of his life. And at 85, he knows time is running out. Conquering the world isn't a game in that you win as long as you have more points at the end of the buzzer. In DD's case, when the buzzer goes off, he's dead...or at least so old that he can't effectively enjoy it. And I wonder how long until senility creeps in? For a man of his intellect (and arrogance) that must be a nightmare to him. So it's not enough to "win" by conquering the world...he has to have time to revel in it and enjoy it. That's why I think his master plan is a "one fell swoop" grandiose plan rather than a more subtle divide and conquer/join forces and assimilate approach. Hopefully Steve won't kill me for directly quoting from CKC (but it is only a sentence): "He's not content to sit quietly and conspire behind the scenes to take over the world; he wants to bring humanity to its knees with one terrifying gesture that embodies his irresistible power and intelligence" I think a plan of having dispossesed or disenfranchised nations joing him a sign of weakness...that DD couldn't somehow conquer the world on his own. However, he might do something as you suggested as a decoy. A feint to grab the world's attention and divert it's resources away from his true Master plan. This I could see DD doing...but this plan as a means and end unto itself does not fit his character. As CKC says, DD loves multi-layer plans, and also making people question their "petty" ideas of ethics and morality. I could see DD improving the lot of people's lives at least temporarily...so as to make Heroes and world governments question if it's "morally vindicated" to depose him even though he's improving the quality of life for others. But DD is also evil personified...third only perhaps to Takofanes and Dark Seraph in terms of his malice and cruel intentions. If he did improve the lot of people, it would be only to make people worship him as a God, since that's how he sees himself.

Here's the thing I wonder about DD. His time is running short. If he's going to croak fairly soon (I imagine even with his anagathics he has at most 20 years to live at the max), he's not only hampered by arrogance, but by impatience and haste as well. He needs to come up with a plan that conquers the world, and conquers it quickly. I'm not sure the "UN Legitimization" scheme will work, as it will take time to both sway over many of these 3rd world countries, and elevate them to a power that can match the non-joining members. And I agree with Scott Destroyer's comments....I think some 3rd world nations will ally with DD, but his expanding sphere of influence will also cause some 3rd world nations to flock to the other world powers. DD isn't going to get all the dispossesed nations of the world. But more importantly, what good is it to finally conquer the world if DD croaks over the next day? If anything, DD should be experiencing something like what Annihilus in the Marvel universe did....a being of vast power who's about to die. I also have a hunch that due to his megalomania, he has a feeling that without his leadership, human beings aren't worthy enough to live. So he could possibly change from world conqueror to world destroyer. What this master plain is, I don't know, but since he's already wasted 10 years of his life on it, I have a hunch it's a grandiose plan designed to conquer the Earth as quickly as possible. It doesn't fit his personality to be a patient schemer biding his time. Again, I think this plan fits Menton or Teleios better than DD. Menton all the more since he could easily manipulate political leaders into doing his bidding very subtly or even peripherally (maybe Menton won't directly mentally manipulate world leaders...but their cabinet, advisors, staff, etc who in turn have the leader's ears). Menton could also cause entire populations to change allegiances especially if he convinces with just a grain of truth. This is Menton's style and tactic. DD is the kind who'll just blow you up if you don't agree. His genius seems to lie in technical creation, not in manipulation, patience and strategy. I have a feeling he'd scoff at Sun Tzu, Clausewitz or even Machiavelli. His arrogance and I would imagine his growing impatience are much more limiting to his overall strength than it would seem.

Bruce really was superhuman. He was known to be able to throw a 2" wood board in the air and break it with a side kick. Imagine trying to do that without anyone holding the board back as a counter resistance. Also, his reflexes were tested once by making him hit a button as soon as he saw a light flash. The button was a punch's distance away. He was able to hit the button in .03 seconds!!! If that's not a speed of 12, I don't know what is. One time he was practice kicking with a good friend of his, Ted Wong. Well, Wong decided to chide Bruce about his kicks...saying something like a little girl could do better. Bruce said to the effect, "oh yeah?", and hit the 100lb bag with Ted holding it (he said he was about 150lbs) with one of his one step side kicks....and he knocked Ted more than 6' back giving him whiplash, and making the 100lb bag hit the ceiling and cracking it! He also reportedly cracked numberous Mook Jongs (the Wing Chun wooden dummy) and did things that really were of virtually superhuman nature. And there's also stories about the capabilities of some of today's Shaolin monks (supposedly one nicknamed the "Flying Monk" can walk sideways along a wall ala Matrix-style for more than 15', and can even round corners because he's so fast). Also, in one study testing how powerful certain techniques were, one guy broke the lexan shield protecting the pressure sensor device...a lexan covering as thick as Police riot shields that can withstand well over 1000lbs per square inch (he did this with a spinning back kick and he also had to get past the padding). As for comments about only having a few reliable techniques to use in a real fight, I think we as civilian martial artists are forgetting one thing.....we're not fighting for our lives on the line. While I only formally studied for a maximum of 3 years in one style, I'd say I could reliably (meaning about 90% of the time) do about maybe 5 kicks, and probably close to 10 different punches, elbow strikes and chops. Joint locks are another story, and I don't know if I'd ever be able to use them in a real fight (though in some play sparring, I was able to get them once in a blue moon). But if I had to use these skills to fight for my life on a day to day basis, I'm fairly positive that I'd become proficient much more quickly. Think about your job skills....you practice them several hours a day and in a way, your life depends on it (if you suck at your job, you lose your job and therefore your money). You tend to get good at it real quick if only because of the amount of time you spend on it. Imagine for a second people like bouncers, police officers, and military personnel who have to rely on these things for their lives and may have to use them on a day to day basis. I'll bet a good chunk of them can reliably perform quite a few manuevers. Think about Bruce...the guy slept, breathed and ate kung fu. When driving to school, he had a little target practice board that he'd use to practice finger strikes when the light was red. We as civilian martial artists or non-professional martial artists spend probably at most 10-15 hours a week doing martial arts (class time + at home training)...and I bet probably a lot less for some. Now imagine if it was your "job" and you spent close to 6+hours a day plying your trade. Comparing what we know to what a dedicated martial artists would know isn't quite a fair comparison. I also think the Hero rules make the system to "fixed". It was funny that I was browsing through Fantasy hero and I came across an alternate system of "spontaneous" magic. I feel that this is very similar to how martial arts could work. I don't know about the other practitioners here...but I bet when you've sparred you threw a technique that you'd never seen or been taught...but it worked. That's the sort of flavor I want to get across. Where your skill as a practitioner is the basis for how good you are at performing techniques. Okay, maybe my inner crescent kick isn't so great, but I can do it, and maybe it's what the situation calls for. Instead of having "fixed" techniques you are capable of (even if the techniques only represent game mechanics....i.e. a fast strike could be a snap kick or a quick jab) why not have a sort of Virtual Power Pool of techniques? Personally, I think it makes just as much sense....IF the character concept is that he's a dedicated martial artist with more than 4 years of training under his belt (I don't think beginning or intermediate level characters should have this ability since they are still learning alot of the techniques and the nuances of the techniques).

Are we talking Earth based foes? How about Tyrannon...he makes Takofanes and DD look like whimpering little school girls (at least in the old 4th edition write up, he was what....something like 8,000 points?). I agree about Menton though, I think he secretly already controls most things behind people's backs without them even knowing. In effect, he pretty much already can have the world if he wants to, including women, money and political power. What more could a guy want?

The trouble here is that if Dr. Destroyer legitimizes himself by becoming a leader of a country or group of countries, he risks the exact same fate of Hussein. I for one always assumed Dr. Destroyer couldn't be taken down because A) his bases were hidden and DD only revealed himself when he wanted to, and Huge organizations like the US government had other more serious matters to worry about (like other rogue nations supposedly threatening its security). If DD does this, he takes away both A) and . Now the U.S. government (and the non-agreeing countries) can focus all their effort on removing this growing thorn in the side. Would DD risk using WMD against those who would deny him? I don't think so...DD isn't a world destroyer, he's a world conqueror. It doesn't do good to blow up the place you want to control. Now would he blackmail with the use of WMD's? Yes, if he thinks it will make his foes capitulate to his demands. But then you start playing WMD brinkmanship...and once you go over the edge, it's too late. DD may be incredibly intelligent, but his arrogance does not make him wise...something that Brinkmanship players need. And really, no matter how powerful DD is, if they ever figure out where he is, a 10kiloton tac nuke is really going to ruin his day. Heroes may balk at using such force with force, but I don't think it would hamper a country who was in turn threatened by WMD's. It's an interesting concept, but I don't think it fits DD's style. Ditto with Mechanon. Now, Foxbat might be crazy enough to do something like this, but he's also not powerful enough to pull it off. I think a more slinky player like Menton would be more apt to do something like this.

Hey, wasn't it an arrow that killed Ancalagon in Middle Earth? So yeah...a mystical and powerful broken arrow that needs to be "healed" like Narsil did. As for recovering arrows, I think it depends on the vegetation. In woods? Forget it. In grasslands or barren areas? It shouldn't be that hard to find some arrows sticking out of the ground (though they may be FAR away). Perhaps you should let your character buy the Fletching skill and just let him make his own arrows when he has to.

Geoff Speare- That's exactly what I've found out too. After spending about 15-20pts on techniques, it becomes extremely redundant. As I mentioned before, buying more techniques does not cumulatively make your character more effective (past a certain point). Buying 50pts of EB is exactly twice as effective as buying 25pts of EB. Buying 50pts of techniques isn't going to make you anywhere near as effective as buying 25pts of techniques. While some can argue that there are human limits, and that after 25pts, the character should be buying CSL's instead, there's also the fact that buying 50pts of techniques may not make you more effectove but it will make you more versatile. The trouble is, you can't have your cake and eat it too....at least with a limited amount of points to spend. And in the real world, someone who practices a style for 5 years or more will be both very versatile and fairly powerful. Which is why I have the cost issue for heroic campaigns. I'm not quite sure I understand your house rule though. So you paid for each technique according to their bonus? Or you figured what the maximum bonus, damage, etc was for every technique you wanted to know, added the totals and that was the cost for the whole "system"? If it's the latter, that makes sense, and I would use it in that way to allow characters to create "pools" of techniques rather than limit them to fixed techniques.

sbarron- When I asked if people thought MA were too expensive, I meant if they felt it was too expensive for their campaign. It's sort of the double edged sword of generic universal systems like Hero. The game mechanics which allow for extreme flexibility often cause certain weird things to happen in relation to other things. That's why many people don't like universal systems because of the "fudge" factor (the GM needing to create house rules or custom rules to fit the particular genre to get the right "feel"). In terms of how martial arts work, I think the Hero System has the best melee combat system of any game I've seen. I just have some issues with it in regards to running a more realistic setting as compared to real-world usage and capabilities of martial artists. After toying around with a few character concepts, it seemed to me that your typical man-at-arms character was a more efficient all around character than the martial artist. While the MA was more versatile in some respects, the MAA was more powerful with his chosen one or two weapons and had enough left over points to buy some other skills. That's why I came to the conclusion that MA were either too expensive, or not versatile enough for the points you had to spend. I posted the topic wondering if anyone else had come across the same thing or not for their campaign. And if they had, what their solution was. I'm not asking Steve to consider changing the point costs to include them in the next edition of the Hero System (which is why I think some people get defensive...they think someone asking for help, suggestions, tips or comments about rules they find to not fit well are asking for official rules addendums....that's not what I'm looking for). So far I haven't found martial arts too expensive or limited for Superhero campaigns, just heroic ones...especially at the 150pt level or below.

I think a part of the whole problem is people trying to make FREd into some kind of Bible. It's the idea that if it's not in the rules, then it's not valid. The trouble is that the Hero System is really a meta-rules system; it's a framework of rules, mechanics and conventions to help a group develop the system they need. There's nothing sacred about any rule in FREd. Unfortunately, I think there's a conception that if it doesn't follow the rules to the letter, it's "unofficial" and therefore illegal. I don't see why someone shouldn't try playtesting their campaigns at STR costing 2pts. What's important is consistency with your game group. So maybe if you go to a convention your character will be invalid, but then again, I've known few GM's who allow crossover characters without going through them with a fine-tooth comb anyways. Do I think STR is cheap? Yes I do. Unfortunately the costs of powers, attributes, skills, talents etc. are based off an assumption of what will be effective in the "average" campaign. However, every campaign is going to diverge from the average in some ways, and it's up to the GM to try to spot these "loopholes" and fix them. For example, why shouldn't everyone use poison? In a heroic campaign it'll only cost you money, and it would be incredibly cheap. Even in the real world, poisoned weapons were extremely rare (although an early form of biological warfare was to rub excrement on weapons). So why don't people in gameworlds or the real world use them? Well because there's more to life than points. The point system should be a guideline....not a law. Do what you have to, playtest it out, and give others your feedback on how it worked.

Rene- No offense was taken Everyone has their right to post their own opinions (as long as they do so in a courteous manner) and no one who posted here was being rude at all. It's just that I've noticed a certain....hmmm, searching for the word here....defensive reaction when anyone suggests changing the written rules to suit their needs. I have to admit, I used to be a purist, I felt that if I ran a campaign, I should be able to run my characters from any genre at any convention without the GM raising his eyebrows at any part. But now I see that sometimes you have to fudge things once in a blue moon, especially to get more realistic results. So I think it's perfectly fine for GM's and players to be creative. Now if you start re-writing how skill rolls are made, and start tweaking the foundations of the game mechanics, I think there has to be a really good reason to do so. I've yet to encounter any situation that requires dramatic "rewriting" like that.

I'll try to explain my grievance in another way. Most martial artists will be spending 15-30pts on their techniques, PS, KS and WF skills. He'll also probably need to buy a few CSL's as well. A man-at-arms kind of character can get a +4 CSL at the 5pt level for about 20 points, or +6 for 30 points. Plus, he can specialize with one weapon at the 2pt level, so maybe have a +4 with one weapon, and a +2 overall CSL for only 24pts. Overall, the men-at-arms can use his CSL in much the same way as the martial artist, and indeed have better DCV's than he can if he pumps all his CSL's into DCV. So let's say he spends 20-25pts on CSL's, 5 pts on WF, and just as many points into more CSL's as the martial artist. Overall, the man-at-arms will be more lethal with a select few manuevers (especially if he bought some CSL's at the 2pt or 3pt level) than the martial artist will (all the more so if the man-at-arms buys just one martial technique with a high +DC and links it with his WF). The MAA however will not be quite as versatile...but analogize it like this: Would you rather have one Power with 80 active points, or 4 powers with 20 active points? Cost-wise, they are the same, so from a statistical standpoint, one could argue they are "balanced". But in the real world (or gameworld) this simply isn't so. A jack-of-all trades is nice, but remember, he's a master of none. As for the argument that Hero System techniques can represent many different "special effects", a real martial artist literally knows hundreds if not thousands of variations on his techniques. Also, I don't know if having the techniques the character bought is representative of what he can use in combat. Most martial artists know hundreds of techniques but usually only use a few of them with regularity...but sometimes it's when they throw that technique you weren't expecting that you get hit. It may not be one of the prettier techniques in your arsenal, but sometimes that element of surprise is all you need (I remember one time trying to go in for a clinch, and the guy ducked under my armpit...I thought, "that's stupid, I can put him in a neck crank or choke hold now", but what he did was slip one of his arms around my waist, and he then hooked his foot under mine and he went into a roll, taking me with him). Neither of us had ever seen or learned any technique like that....he just made it up on the spot. And I'd done things like that before too. So I think there's merit for having a "pool" of techniques which is somewhat limited by your skill at the style. I just haven't been able to figure out a good cost for that sort of style. I was thinking an alternative would be a cumulative sum of pts in technique x2, so if you want to learn 5pt techniques, it'll cost you (1x2)+(2x2)+(3x2)+(4x2)+(5x2) = 30pts. To learn 4pt techniques would only cost you 20 etc. It still costs about the same as most martial artists would pay anyways (well, a little more since you still have to buy the PS and KS and WF's), but you have a lot more flexibility with the moves you want to use.

Well to be honest, sometimes I see people on this board here stick to the rules like glue and somehow consider any rules in print "inviolate" and if someone suggests otherwise, it's akin to insulting the Hero System. The trouble is that the Hero System, being a generic universal system, does occasionally require some fine tuning and tweaking beyond the printed rules to represent what you want. For example, in a cyberpunk genre, I definitely would want to have more than just the basic computer programming skill, and have many levels of computer knowledge (software engineering, OO design, specific languages, analysis and design, logic, networking, specific API's, hardware knowledge for assembly languages, etc. etc.). That's the whole point of the Hero System, that there's enough information within the basic system for it to be tweaked as necessary to fit the genre and mood that you're trying to create. I have no misgivings whatsoever about tweaking rules and even breaking them when necessary to fit certain conceptions and genres. The Hero System is extremely flexible, and it's to its credit that it rarely needs "tweaking", but it sometimes does. But I get the notion that sometimes when someone makes a suggestion of altering the rules to cover a specific need, it seems like a lot of "purists" come out and suggest there's nothing wrong with the rules as is, that there's a way within the rules to make it work. Well, looking at Fantasy Hero itself, look at all the added Talents and perks to simulate the fantasy genre. Even UMA added new moves and techniques. Star Hero also added to the core rules (or expanded upon) for the Hero System. So yes, it is possible to do some things as suggested, like using powers to represent certain martial attacks (I've done this on occasion), but sometimes it just doesn't quite fit the way you intended it to. I've always thought Hero was the Burger King of RPG's...I can have it my way. Part of the reason I post is to get suggestions or other ideas I may not have thought about that fits the criteria I'd like. People have every right of course to say that I can make it fit within the framework of the rules as-is, just as I have every right to tweak the rules as I see fit. I would however like a range of ideas, including those that may have to "break" the rules. Since I like realistic combat and realistic modeling over dramatic modeling, I sometimes run into problems with the Hero System (there's a page or two in Fantasy hero detailing exactly some of the problems I've run into in the past with melee combat). Since I want to run a fantasy/martial art campaign, and I'd like it to be as realistic as possible, I felt like the current martial technique costs to be a bit prohibitive....at least for 150pt characters. For 200pt characters, it's not too bad, but 200 is almost overkill for regular men-at-arms type characters (but also reasonable for mages).

The thing is, I am a real martial artist in RL. I've had about 3 years of formal instruction in Shotokan, about a year in Aikido and a year in Choy Lay Fut. I also took a semester of epee/foil and a semester of sabre (hungarian style) fencing. I've also been studying and practicing on my own for nearly 22 years (I started when I was 9) and sparred with people from Greco Roman, Tai Chi, TKD, Wing Chun, Jiu-Jitsu, and Baguazhang. I even have a little bit of training in Escrima from some filipino friends who taught me (I'm part filipino myself). So I can attest from experience that a black belt would have many many more choices available than 10-15 points. Even with the assumption that a technique as listed in FREd or UMA can be various techniques amongst different styles or even two or more different techniques from the same style, I can assure you that a good martial artists training for 3 or more years would have enough techniques of sufficient diversity that he'd have about 10 Hero System martial arts techniques if that few. While it is true that for one manuever you do get a lot of benefits...the effects aren't cumulative. So one 5pt manuever might get you a +3DC and a +1 OCV, but that's it. The next 5pt manuever isn't going to add to that unlike other powers do. It can to a degree make a martial artist more versatile thanks to his ability to purchase killing or NND attacks as well as disarms or takedowns, but the ability to do so is at a very basic level for the most part. In a heroic level campaign, a good martial artist with 15 STR, will probably at most do a 7d6 normal attack. Not bad...since he'll do on average 24.5 STUN and 7 BODY, enough to crack ribs of average joe blow off the street and stun him in one blow. But now let's put this character in a superheroic campaign and give him a more fitting 20 STR. Now he only does 8d6 with one of the stronger attacks...that's laughable. While you can argue that he can buy more Combat Skill Levels, or extra HTH attacks to power his attacks, he still has to pay 20-30 points for his martial style. It seems to me that the moves were balanced with the logic that the moves themselves were decently powerful enough per move, and that since they were cheap you could buy several of them to make your character's combat versatility improved. But I think that either A) they didn't make the moves powerful enough or they should have kept them with the same abilities, but cheapen them to make characters even more versatile. I also would have liked to see a return of the more than one exclusive element optional rules that were in the original Ninja Hero, since many moves can and do combine blocks and strikes, or throws and strikes into the same move. I actually liked the optional martial art of buying CSL's to make a sort of VPP of martial capabilities. You might want to make a move very evasive giving great DCV bonuses, or you might want to concentrate a lot to increase your OCV> The advantage of that system is that you can create "moves" on the fly. Another option I toyed with was to make characters be able to create manuevers on the fly much like the CSL option. The cost would be the highest maneuver x 4 with a built-in limitation....you had to buy a skill in your martial art style (if you don't already). For every move you made, you had to beat your Style skill roll, or the move would suffer a penalty point (at the GM's discretion) for each point you failed the roll. Also, the character gets his style skill/3 in "memorized techniques" and can pay 1pt to get additional memorized techniques (no matter how many points are in that manuever). So for example, if you had a karate skill of 12, and you rolled a 14 while attempting a 5pt. manuever, it would wind up being a 3pt maneuver. One point manuevers will always succeed. You would still have to roll to hit as usual by comparing OCV and DCV. This makes "black belts" have far more manuevers at their disposal. It also allows for the realistic notion that some martial artists are better "stylists" than others...meaning their techniques are more clean more often (how often have you seen reality fights with the sloppiest techniques you'd ever seen?).

I think a decent modeling of a real world black belt would take around about 30 character points to achieve, but this seems rather high. Since the Hero System grades on the basis of how much a power or effect helps a character, it seems like this is extremely costly compared to other powers. For example, for 30points, you can buy a 2d6 HKA which boosted by strength will more than likely by 3d6 or more. Most martial arts moves don't increase DC by more than 4 (most only +2DC with some OCV or DCV bonuses), so it only minimally increases damage, and the net OCV/DCV bonuses penalties usually cancel each other out. You can get some neat moves which allow for NND attacks (choke holds or nerve strikes), and a martial artist can make his attack killing (pressure points or joint breaks) as well as offer increased DCV versus attacks, and allow for other combat techniques like disarming or superior grabbing. But 30points to simulate all the moves a typical black belt would know seems pretty high given the only small benefits provided by open-handed combat. Now, when a WF is added to the mix, I think it does become fairly effective, since you can add the martial bonuses to the weapon attack (paying 5pts to increase an attack by 4DC is pretty good). But bare-handed, I just don't think it's cost-balanced. Also, even 30points can be somewhat limiting in terms of techniques that would be possessed by skilled practitioners. Most styles will have taught literally hundreds of techniques after a period of about 3 years...of those hundreds, scores will have enough differing characteristics to the move (in Hero terms) to make them unique enough to be made into new techniques. I know that UMA says that a technique like Fast Strike can be represented conceptually by two or more attacks (say a quick snap kick or a fast jab), but this still isn't comprehensive enough to allow for all the varied techniques a high level practitioner would know. I was thinking of allowing Martial Arts moves moves to essentially be bought with some kind of bonus, maybe even halving the cost of the all the moves that are bought (so if you buy 30points of techniques, it'll actually only cost you 15). I definitely feel this is appropriate for Martial Art genres, and possibly appropriate for other heroic level campaigns. For Superheroes, it's iffy, but many martial powers and techniques can be simulated with powers themselves, so I'd be more leery of allowing the discount. Does anyone else feel martial moves are too expensive?

You know, that was my immediate first impression too. I actually would have been willing to pay 45$ for this thing if it came in a hard back edition. I'm almost positive the spine on this is going to give way within a few months.

GamePhil- The trouble with allowing high CON to model pain resistance with the limitation "Only against Pain" makes bookkeeping very difficult if you also allow it to affect figured characteristics. Like I mentioned in my example, Pain is one of those mostly STUN but can be BODY damage kind of things (pain alone usually isn't enough to cause lethal damage, but it can if the body is already in trouble). So how would a high CON with "Only against Pain" allow one to have increased BODY? This is what I mean by the Hero System having to do some really funky work-arounds to model this...and it's still not perfect. Plus if you model pain resistance by having high stun, how come sonic attacks or electrical stun gun attacks will be less effective (they don't involve any kind of pain effects)? If you have high STUN with the limitation "only versus pain", when you take damage that's all about pain (say a nerve strike), how much STUN do you have when you get hit with a Sonic attack? The plain and simple matter is that the Hero System doesn't reflect pain very well without introducing quite a few house rules. I've done something similar to the Physical Limitation you described, by enforcing skill penalty, OCV/DCV, and other penalties based on a percentage of your BODY that the character has taken damage. I also always have the wound effect option, even in superhero campaigns. The trouble is that CON models physical health...but pain resistance and health are not necessarily related (you could buy a high CON with the limitation "only against pain", but I would not allow it to affect figured characteristics...if you want it to affect STUN, then buy more STUN, again with the limitation, "only against Pain"). The trouble with having STUN or BODY with limitations is in keeping track of damage. A good punch to the head is painful, but it's also just dizzying (trust me, I've been beaned in the head quite a few times during sparring...it's not so much painful as just disorienting). So how much of the damage rolled by the attack was really a part of "pain"? Now if you get hit over the head with a blackjack...yeah, a huge part of that is going to be pain, or if you take a club to the knee. But where does the GM draw the line? That's why I really think it depends on whether the campaign is heroic and needs a fair amount of realism (which will be difficult to model), or is superheroic, and the jury-rigged house rules will suffice to model pain tolerance.

Is this campaign heroic or superheroic? If it's heroic, maybe you can create a talent/power for 10 or 15pts that negates a need to take the Wound effect optional rule (I would still allow them to get knocked out and Stunned as explained below) . Unfortunately, there's no way to do this cheaply even with the powers themselves which is strange since Pain Tolerance should have been some kind of talent/power. Or if you don't want to make up a power like that, simply give the character a really high ego, with a limitation "only to avoid stuns from wounding or against Ego Attacks". If it's superheroic, then having high PD or ED doesn't model it well. Afterall, PD and ED is your body's resistance against structural damage. Yes, it does help defend against Stun damage (or BODY if it's resistant), but stun damage in itself doesn't necessarily reflect pain. It can also simply represent the abuse one can take before passing out (boxers don't pass out due to extreme pain, they pass out because their body and mind simply can't take it anymore). Moreover, having high CON to resist being stunned doesn't reflect a high pain tolerance either. Sometimes the body can be "stunned" without any pain (sonic attacks, certain chemicals, pressure point attacks, etc). So unfortunately, it's a limitation of the Hero System BODY/STUN damage tracking system that prevents a good solid modeling of how to do this. You may need to have some form of Mental Defense which simulates defense against pain-inducing mental attacks (or maybe not...if you want the character to literally have no nerves that register pain, but still allow the mental "illusion" of pain). So you might want to define what makes him pain-resistant...is it his high willpower and Ego so that he "ignores" pain, or is he literally incapable of feeling pain? The trouble is that there are some damage effects that the Hero System can't really handle. For example, many joint locks in Aikido are easy to get out of...if you have a high pain tolerance. It's not the STR of the lock, or even the skill of the practitioner that matters...some holds (for example Ikkyo) which are effective because if the defender moves, it causes excruciating pain without necessarily physically damaging any ligaments, muscles, tendons or bones. Hero cam't simulate this well because Body damage represents strucutural damage to vital body functions, and STUN represents bruises and mental "fatigue" (physical structural damage either extermally or internally...like concussions for example). The trouble is that STUN isn't exactly a measure of "shock" or "pain". Shock in the real world would half belong to STUN and BODY. Shock in lesser amounts will make you unconscious, and at serious levels will cause cardiac arrest or comas (BODY damage). Pain alone will not throw someone into shock who otherwise suffers no other damage (you'll just pass out from the pain)...but combine this with several other enviromental factors like exposure to the elements, fatigue, dehydration, delerium, hypothermia, heatstroke and others....and it can throw you into Shock (by the way, all the above afflictions are partially BODY damage effects depending on the severity, but mostly STUN damage). In Hero terms, sometimes STUN damage should be translated to BODY damage. The other failure of the Hero System is the dreaded (I had 30 BODY, your damage takes me down to 1 BODY now....but I attack at full strength next phase!"). The Wound optional rule can mitigate this to a degree...but if a character has a high enough Ego roll, it doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense that a character beat to an inch of his life should still be at 100% efficiency. This is due to a lack of a "Pain" scale or structural deterioration effects. The Hero system works well enough...but it does have it's weaknesses depending on how realistic you want to get, and what kinds of effects you want to model.