Christougher

By the way, is there a way to build the opposite of an increased STUNx? This time for armor? I was thinking about introducing a split PD/rPD for armor, but declaring rigid armor to just decrease the multiplied would be a simpler solution. Just use the same cost modifier as +STUNx for weaponry?

I really like that idea.  Off the top of my head:

Reduced Stun Multiple: This -1/2 limitation (same cost as increased Stun Multiple) decreases the Stun Damage inflicted by a Killing Attack, reducing the Stun Multiplier by 1, down to a minimum of 1x.

Naked Advantage: Reduced Stun Multiple (-1/2) on 60 AP Killing Attack: 20 Points.  You have to pay points to inflict the limitation on something else.  Should possibly require some other advantages to balance out.  Limitations on this power at least include OIF, reducing it to 13 Real Points.

Chris.

Ninja-Bear, on 09 Apr 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I should hace been clearer in my typing. He has an offensive strike (4d6) +2d6 extra DC which now makes the manuever 6d6 normal dice. However, when you apply this to a killing attack, it takes 2DC of normal dice to bump up 1DC of killing (fred pg. 406). Hence the 6d6/2=3d6.

I don't think that's how it works.

It's almost correct.  The Offensive Strike is +4 DCs, plus 2 more.   It takes two DCs from a maneuver to increase Killing damage by 1 DC.  So it's +3 DCs, not +3d6.

Chris.

If you are playing a high fantasy game with dragons, giants, the undead and the like then bumping DC/Def ratios with assorted heroic abilities makes sense. Let combat luck stack, and cull the books (like pulp hero, dark champions, and FH) for other defensive abilities. It makes for a highly cinematic and legendary style of play -- which is what Mr. Long's approach handles best. Its certainly valid, and is great for certain genres and styles of play.

In this case, yes.  DCs are allowed to range high, and not solely in the hands of mages.  Not sure I have access to those books, would you care to summarize some of those abilities?

Chris.

Not to disagree with Markdoc's analysis or results, but...

The game recommends a certain level of defense.  Makes it difficult to reach that.  Attempts to fix that bring about other consequences.  Why?

As to the raising of rDEF, while maybe not to that extreme, in far too many Fantasy Hero games, DCV is the only practical defense.  With the wild swings from Stun Multiples and Hit locations, it is impossible to have sufficient defenses to tank damage rather than avoid it.  And to me, that is a bad thing.

Chris.

Yeah, /finding/ the amount of rDEF wasn't the issue.  It was *getting* that much rDEF with what was available.  

Right now, I'm looking at boosting 'worn armor' by 50%, and/or some lesser version of Combat Luck, possibly for free. 

Chris.

It looks workable.  But complex.  

For a lot of ranges of fantasy magic, buying off one of those limitations might just cost the single point, but that might be an unnecessary simplification.

Do you really need three copies of the same alt-END/alt-REC mechanic - wouldn't one source of magical energy be easier to manage?

In a similar vein, I'd suggest making the required limitations all the same - or all different.

Cantrips is a good idea.

What does buying up the Perk give?  Answered with another reading - more alt-END/alt-REC.

Purchasing a school gives one and only one spell with no increase in power level?  How do they purchase additional spells?

I suggest making magical colleges that only teach a few schools similar to the gods prohibiting scriptures.  This will make the mages more unique and flavorful, and reduce the issue of "I'm a mage, I can do anything."

Chris.

That's 10-12 DC grand total, not the weapons themselves - I posted my weapons list in the downloads section.  There's armor included there as well, but that's even more work in progress than the weapons list.  And yes, that includes the possibility of a 4d6 KA; if the mage types can reach that level of damage, there's no reason the warrior types shouldn't be able to either.

Chris.

Healing does have a cap - that 2d6 Healing will only heal a maximum of 6 Body per person per day.  The reuse interval can be changed, though I don't remember the cost of that offhand.  Multiple sources of healing aren't affected per se, but will still cap out at the larger amount.  I don't recall offhand if it's official or a house rule that followup healing rolls must exceed the previous roll to increase effect.

Chris.

Apology not necessary.  No slight was felt or intended in the other direction.

Ninja Bear's quote of the original message just reinforced my feelings that, while I asked one question, most of the thread responses were answering different questions.

Chris.

It was comparative. A 60 AP attack is the same as allowing a 60 strength.

 

Complaining that the fantasy armor as written does not protect you from the AP level of super science lasers and super powers seams way out there. The fantasy armor listed is very well balanced to other technology of its own setting.

But complaints that you have to buy extra defends for characters to survive very high active point attacks seam strange.

 

If I have 60 AP attacks in my game I expect to see defense Abilities that fit. I do not expect the defends designed to resist 30-45 AP attacks being used against them.

While a dragon might have that 60 STR, a player character isn't going to because that's not part of the genre.  Just because it's equivalent doesn't mean it's correct or allowed.  You seem to be equating Active Point level with a specific genre, which is not the way it works.  What Active Point level would you consider a sci-fi game with lasers and spaceships (mental powers optional)?   Modern day investigation or espionage?  You can play any genre you choose at any power level, that's the beauty of Hero System.

And no, Fantasy Armor is not well balanced against Magic, the "technology" of the setting.  Even at your 30-45 Active Point level, a magic spell can give 10 PD/10 ED armor or a 22 PD/22 ED Force Field, which is vastly superior to the book suggested armor.  And I happen to think that mages shouldn't be out-tanking the guys in plate armor, it's severely out of what's considered normal for the genre, and for what I want to see in the game.

Your last two sentences are the only ones I agree with.  I want characters to be able to have defenses that stand up to that level of offense.  The book listed defenses don't provide it, so I'm asking for suggestions to improve it.  Denigrating my choice of play style does not provide any useful help.

Chris.

I think limiting Combat Luck as suggested in the Valdorian Age book is a good idea because it allows warriors some defense if unarmored.

 

Heavy armor and Combat Luck is a pretty powerful combo.

I don't have that book, so I don't know what it suggests.

Yeah, it's powerful, but on the other hand, it seems that it's almost required to meet the suggested defense levels.  And that I think is a problem.

Chris.

 http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88783-balancing-power-levels-defense/ 

This thread in the Hero Discussion forum on defenses gave me a slightly different question.

My old gaming group had a running gag about characters whose concept was lacking...  "Why does Leopard Girl have wings?"

So I built Leopard Girl with Wings as a character.  Lucy Willing worked in a lab splicing animal DNA together until the predictable accident combined her DNA with that of several animals, primarily an eagle and a leopard, giving her leopard skin, running and claws, and eagle flight and eyesight.  From other animals she picked up gills for breathing underwater, rhinoceros-tough skin, chameleon camouflage and regeneration.

Other parts may be added or removed if desired.  I hope it's weird enough for you.

Chris.

For a modest number of points, you can buy +1 OCV with single attack (Autofire shot #2, Autofire shot #3, etc) instead of advantage, and it'll probably be less expensive.  A word of advice though, that REALLY increases the effectiveness of said autofire attack.

Chris.

Do you really think anyone’s going to read six pages of this stuff?

 

Not really, but maybe players will skim and pick up some stuff that will help, or maybe refer to it if there's something they want to understand and find an answer.

 

I started reading through this, and had the thought that it sounded similar to the ideas I wanted to express in my 'How to Play Hero (in two pages)'.

And then I got to these two lines at the end.  ROFL.

Copied for use and possible inclusion of bits into that 'two pages' document, thanks.

Chris.

The only thing I'd suggest is Clinging, trees seem to be a pretty good case for.   The back and forth fight to break the Clinging with opposed STR rolls seems more entertaining too. 

Chris.

I'd rule that the same construct as a Naked Advantage or Limitation buyoff could be used to construct the "power".

Presuming the "Takes Damage from Sunlight" is a 25 point Disad, it's a 25 AP effect, add Incantations, charges, or other limitations to get the effect you want.

Chris.

I have a house rule that limited coverage or effect Entangles (like handcuffs) automatically receive the Takes no Damage from Attacks advantage for free.  It just doesn't make sense to pay for an advantage caused by a limitation.

Chris.

Can Dispel be used offensively like that?  Yes.

However, Dispel is Instant, so an ability that is Dispelled can normally be restarted the next phase(barring limitations on the ability).  You'd need to add the Constant advantage or use the Suppress power to make it continue.  If you have that, the first effect roll continues at that level until the suppressing power ends.  However, you can make additional attacks with the power which would then add their effects.

No, Dispel Life Support is not an instant kill, at least by the rules as written.  It just means they'd have to start eating, breathing, etc. from that point.  Whether or not that makes sense in game is a different question.  And is one of the reasons the advantage Inherent is often used.

Chris.

One comment on it said it leaned towards Cthuloid... Hyperspace monsters, anyone?

Chris.

I'm kicking around the idea of buying the PDF.  The description of how to handle combat related skills seems very inconsistent to me in the MHI book.  For example, "+1 HTH" and "+1 with Firearms" are not explained anywhere in the MHI book but are listed in the sample characters.  I'm not seeing that any specific weapon related skills are listed at all.  That being said, I've not familiar with the Hero system and haven't played it.  My experience is the old original D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Traveler, and several other older games from the 70's to the early 90's.

Those '+1 with' are OCV bonuses that make it easier for your attack to hit. Their price increases as the size of the group they apply to increases, starting at a single weapon type, through a small group like firearms, a large group like all Hand to Hand attacks, to all Combat.

The only Weapons skills per se are Weapon Familiarities that offset the -3 OCV penalty for using a weapon you don't have that skill for.  There are a few others to offset penalties for some less-frequently used cases (not sure which are in MHI).

The PDF is probably a good idea.  It'll cover more of those edge cases, has lots of examples, and isn't limited (or aimed at) any specific genre.

Chris.

It's not intended to hold up to any real scrutiny, but it makes an acceptable psuedomath for my Master of Orion campaign.

I can't do FTL math, but I'm sure whoever invents this field in-game can give you an acceptable answer.

Chris.

I had a random math thought today, and thought I'd share.

Real Numbers can be plotted on a number line.  Using that as the X axis and Imaginary numbers as the Y axis, you can plot Complex numbers on a plane.

What happens when we take that a step farther?  Inventing a Z axis allows us to create another new class of numbers, but what does it mean, what do we use it for?

I decided to call it the Strange? axis, and make Strange? math that which was required to do calculations for warp fields, subspace and all things FTL.  (Yes, the question mark is a required part of the name.)  The higher the arc along the Strange? axis, the faster travel or shorter distance between two points.

It's not intended to hold up to any real scrutiny, but it makes an acceptable psuedomath for my Master of Orion campaign.  Figured it might be worth sharing.

Chris.

Let me plug my 5E Weapons.XLS file in the downloads section here, somewhat recently updated.  http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/57-weaponsxls/

Chris.

Unless these new weapons and shields are significantly different or more powerful than normal items, I'd say it's just a special effect.  You're still requiring time and effort to forge the items, all you're doing is providing the raw materials yourself.

Chris.