UltraRob

So, I've been planning my upcoming FH campaign, and I planned on making it a good ole traditional D&D type High Fantasy setting with the usual PC races (minus dwarves, gnomes and halflings, although I did allow for them to be there as minor races) adding a few races (bear men, cat people and magical goblins) and I customized them as per the HERO GM's credo and was off and running....Til I a thought suddenly occured to me....

Why was I bothering to include "races" at all? All of them could simply be cultural or physical modifications of humanity itself with almost no changes except for a little fur here and there. In face, the more I thought about it, it was more interesting to come up with backgrounds, psychologies and ideals about these "human races" than it was to sit there and play with the worn-out Fantasy cliches I had there already. Especially when I know my PCs are just going to be played as humans in makeup anyways.

I just got done a China-based campaign with no non-human races and that was tons of fun, why bother with "Fantasy Races" when in the end all it will mean is a bunch of cliched PCs and stereotypes. At least if we have to deal with human cultures the Players and I will have to actually think about the people a little bit more to understand what makes them different.

I almost wonder if non-human races hurts Fantasy gaming in some ways, after all, don't most gamers just players "play to type" when playing non-human characters? Races have often become as much "personality types" as they have anything else, (ie "Stoic elf", "agressive orc", "surly dwarf", etc) and those are human traits anyways, so why not just play them as human? Any of those can be cultural traits, and even exist in a single geographic area as they did in real life, so why should we have our PCs put on "makeup" before they show those traits "onscreen"? (To say nothing of the morally questionable idea of thinking of people in terms of "race" to begin with.)

Another thread here asks "why should humans rule?" But, I ask in return why should we be playing or bothering with nonhumans at all?

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

I've done to 3 things to alleviate the problem of everyone having the same stats.

 

I raised the cost of strength to 2 points per. When it only cost one point it was too efficient to buy strength up to 18 just for the benefit to figured characteristics.

 

I set starting points at 75/50 and stated that no more than 65 points could be spent on characteristics. With only 65 points to spend, having a 20 St., 20 Dx. and 4 Spd. Leaves only 5 points left over to spend on constitution, PD and ED. This leaves the character vulnerable to being Con. stunned on a regular basis - a bad thing for a front line fighter. Magic using characters also have to spend points to increase their Int. and Ego which further limits the 20 Str.-20 Dex.-4 Spd. phenomenon.

Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help!

Oh! And one more thing...I have noticed with HERO there is a tendancy for players to "evolve" their characters in certain directions based on what has worked for them so far...completely natural and logical, I agree...but it can produce odd effects you might need to watch out for...

For example, my last group's first experience with HERO was a Streetfighter type martial arts campaign...all fine and good...but when I asked them to hand in their characters for the Fantasy campaign that followed I suddenly found myself looking at an entire group of characters with basic natural PD's of 20+ across the board. Perfectly logical in a high powered streetfighter game, but suddenly they felt naked without it when I wanted them to make Fantasy characters who normally have PD's of 4-8. I have noticed HERO gamers who start with Champions also have this problem sometimes because they start used to high powered characters and then suddenly freak when they're asked to play someone with DEX:13, SPD:2-3.

If anything, I would advocate starting your players off with as low a point value as you feel comfortable with, and then let them evolve through experience. (I would say 50+50, but some people here would probably say as low as 25+25. ) Then after that even if you use higher point values their first thoughts won't be "Okay...STR: 20, DEX:20, SPD:4...." before they even think about who their characters are because they're used to higher powered stats and want to max things as quickly as possible.

Rob

Re: Taking the plunge into Fantasy Hero ... help!

I'm going to be running an open FH game for newbies in my area soon, and you might consider what I was planning to do...The first game I'm just going to give everyone premade characters (from a pile they will pick from) and run them on a good ole fashioned D&D Dungeon Crawl using those characters as a way of giving them a "feel" for the system before I ever let them touch character creation.

Then when they've got a handle on it, I will let them actually try making characters of their own for a real campaign if things go well. HERO can be easily overwhelming, so why not let them get a feel for how the game works before asking them to do the hard stuff.

Of course, whenever I run a new system for any group I always run a round of combat first to give them a feel for the system. (After doing my own little solo playtests first, of course...)

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

I'd expect lowering NCM to decrease variety: DEX is good for most people, as is SPD, so I'd expect characteristics to cluster around 13 for most things and people to max out on the same things. Players who might like an 18 PRE will probably balk at 11 points for it - They'd be better off going for 13 and a PRE skill level.

 

My experience is the same as it ever was - if players are clustering up at the top end of NCM, that's a sign you are starting them off on too many points.

 

cheers, Mark

Valid points, but I'm not sure I agree with the "too many points" thing...for example if I gave my PC's 50+50 characters, 50 less than the "standard" for heroic fantasy characters I have 0 doubts the first 40 points will be spent to write in STR:20, DEX:20 on at least two or three of those character sheets because they know the value they get for those numbers. If I didn't NCM them, at least one person would try STR:25, DEX:30 for 75pts and then baseline everything else and use the remaining 25 points to buy skills. And, for those who say "combat monster!", the ironic part is that person would use those 25 skill points to buy: Oratory, Persuasion, PS:Cooking, Survival and a host of noncom skills at 8< or 11< for 1-2pts each.

They're not stupid, once they make themselves king of the combat hill, they immediately start working on noncombat stuff so I can't nail them for it. Sure, they won't rule at noncombat things, but they will make sure they have enough to get by. I have a clever bunch of powergamers, I do.

I guess maybe I should just start them with 25+25...but that just seems cruel...

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

That helps them to see' date=' but not to connect with arrows. Maybe give them a PSL or two versus Range as well? Of course, if I want a human to be equivalent, I can just buy him PSL's as well. Campaign ground rules could, of course, cap the PSL's one can buy, with the elves' "bonus levels" not counting to the maximum.[/quote']

 

That assumes, of course, that you want to make it so that Elves willl almost always be better and no human could match them...I think it's perfectly reasonable that they have the same max (if any), but Elves just get a natural head start. So while I'd give the Elf maybe +2 ranged PSLs as part of their package, it doesn't mean that humans couldn't buy them to match.

 

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

Out of sheer curiosity...Costs per point in a graduated scale...

So: STR:18 costs 1+1+1+2+2+2+3+3= 15pts

Cost for: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24

Attribute:

STR: 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5

DEX: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

CON: 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7

BODY: 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7

INT: 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5

EGO: 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7

PRE: 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5

COM: .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 1 1 1 1 1 1 2

Or, in real numbers:

STR: x1 1 2 3 5 7 9 12 15 18 22 26 30 35

DEX: x3 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55 66 78 91

CON: X2 1 3 6 8 11 14 18 22 27 32 38 46 53

And other costs would be much the same accordingly...

Re: Ncm:15

But then I suppose you'd have the mathmaticians trying to figure out the most efficient cost for Dex based on whether it would be better to buy CSL's or Dexterity at some given value Can't win it seems.

 

Another thing you can try is to have characters roll randomly for their own unique normal characteristic maxima. This would give some variety to characters, as they all have their own distinct limitations in different characteristics. A slow witted warrior may have a high NCM for STR (19 for example), but a low NCM for intelligence (13 perhaps) - it is easier for him to become stronger than smarter.

That might be a valid approach, although I know many on here will balk at the idea...Say each character rolls their NCM as 10+2D6(+Racial Modifier?) and those are the effective limits of the character's natural ability before they have to start really pushing themselves to achieve improvement. In this case the only question would be whether they had to take the NCM limiters where they lay, or could put them where they felt they best suited the character. (In effect we just made HERO into D&D...)

Hmmm...the more I think about it...the "just don't bother with NCM" approach might just be the ticket...The graduated cost idea is cool, but would require a chart to hand to the players...Then again, that isn't anything new for HERO, is it?

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

I remember that approach from some old FH, and it always made a lot of sense if the various stat bonuses and penalties were reasonably balanced out.

 

Yes, this would motivate the "best" race for the "class. If elves have the potential to be the best archers in the world, but poor potential as melee combatants, wouldn't you expect:

 

(a) The best archers in the world would be predominantly elven?

 

( Elves to logically focus their combat tactics and training on archery rather than melee?

 

Makes sense to me. Of course, whether you want to have that added degree of differentiation between the various races is a question you/your gaming group needs to answer before deciding.

Yeah, I do have to admit that the old FH way of just playing with the NCM for each race made a lot of sense. Although I think that's more of a metagaming thing than something to do within the rules like the old FH tried to do. The GM should just set the ranges and that's how it is, just like human NCM is.

Here's an interesting point, though...How in HERO would you make it so Elves are naturally better archers when the prime stat for any combat is still DEX? There's really nothing there to encourage archers over light fighters, except maybe a low ability to take hits due to a low CON. (Which I guess might do it...)

I guess they could have natural PSLs to represent their ability to target...but that seems a little odd.

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

In a recent Star Hero Game' date=' I tried to increase the variety in Stats by declaring that no two game characters could have all identical Primary Stats. It seemed to do the trick...[/quote']

 

So, did your players barter over who would have what stats?

 

That sounds like an interesting idea! I might try it!

 

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

I'd be worried that everyone would go from having DEX 20 to everyone having DEX 15.

Well, I would like to think this would have 3 effects:

1) People would put more thought into what stats were important to them, resulting in a little more variety. (Although, as you say, 15's across the board are also quite possible...but I like to think most poeple want an edge!)

2) Fast Draw would suddenly become a very popular thing to have.

3) Combat Skill Levels would also become much more popular and economical.

As a side note, I was thinking that for the purposes of "fantasy races", the NCM for each race would be the baseline+package bonus+5. (ie if Elves get +3 DEX then 10+3+5=DEX NCM:18, and they pay double above that.) The only problem I could see with this is that it might make "racial classes" too popular...taking a race which has the highest potentials in whatever you want your class to be.

Rob

Re: Ncm:15

Haven't tried it' date=' but can you tell me where it is suggested in [i']Fantasy Hero[/i]; want to check it out. Thanks!

Page 79.

It's under "characteristics", so it's probably something nobody actually read because they figured they already knew it. I only stumbled across it accidently on the weekend...

Rob

I know this has probably be asked before, but has anyone tried the option suggested in Fantasy Hero and dropped Normal Characteristic Maxima to 15 for the nonfigured stats? And did it work out?

I am planning a FH campaign right now, and am so sick of seeing everyone with DEX:20 that I'm considering NCM:15 as an experiment. So I thought I'd ask if anyone else tried it. My hope, of course, is that people will buy beyond 15, but only where they really want to focus.

Rob

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

I once ran a full space opera campaign with no aliens at all, it was the far future and all the "aliens" were just humans whose ancestors had done what you're talking about either for adaption or cultural purposes. There were some real aliens around, but they were so alien they ignored humanity and humanity ignored them. Of course this occured over thousands of years, so even these "modified humans" were still pretty alien by this point in some respects...

If you think this idea is cool, I say go for it!

Rob

Re: A Modern League of Extroardinary Gentlemen

Actually, I think a problem is occuring here...The original LXG picked a year and stuck with that time period, aging the characters as necessary....I think it would be best to do that for a "modern" team as well. If you were to create modern LXG type teams, you should make them by era. So, logically speaking we'd have:

Team 70's

Team 80's

Team 90's/2000's (I think these are best combined since it's only 2004.)

Which I think would allow for more customization, they were the teams of their respective eras...although you could have older/younger versions of another era's heros involved as well.

So, let's see, off the top of my head (and using some of your examples...)

Team 70's

Steve Austin (the 6 million dollar man)

Columbo

Thomas Magnum

Dirty Harry

Team 80's

MacGuyver (of course! The MAN!)

Michael Knight

Manimal (don't remember his real name)

The A-Team? (All of them, or perhaps just Hannibal Smith or B.A. Baracas?)

Stringfellow Hawk (Airwolf's pilot)

Nick Knight

Starman or Mathew Starr

Jessica Fletcher

Team 90's+

Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Harry Potter

Beatrix Kiddo

Hmm...I am such a child of the 80's....Any thoughts for the other teams?

Rob

Re: 'Empire': a cliché?

You refer to it through most of your writeup as "A Trust", so why not just call it that instead? "The Trust" can sound just as fearsome as "The Empire" once the players learn what it really means. ^_- It also gives you a lot more latitude in terms of what your political system can do.

Rob

Re: Weapon Style Creation

You might try MarkDoc's alternate Martial Arts building rules

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Sengoku/sengoku_front_page.html

They will produce slightly different results, but on the other hand they allow for a lot more customization on the part of the PCs.

Rob

Re: Non-combatant campaigns?

As a general thought, HERO is and was simply not made for that kind of campaign....I am not saying a good bunch of players and a smart GM can't make it happen (they can make anything happen, no matter what system they are playing), but I really think HERO was made for heroic combat, and that's what it's set up for. Without a lot of extra rules, there just isn't the support structure inside the game to run social interation on a game mechanics level.

Actually, offhand, I can't think of many games that do have that sort of thing in mind...GURPS is a little better than HERO in this area....And, if I were going to do what you are doing I would probably run GURPS. (Sorry to Herodom, but GURPS is better at human-level stuff in my opinion.) But, even GURPS doesn't quite have the social rules to handle a "Mean Girls" scenario. I'm not sure what would, really. :-/

As I said above, it all comes down to the players and GM in the end, regardless of system...I once ran a campign for RIFTS where all the PCs were 0-level farmers and townsfolk who had to go on a mission to find someone to save their town. Only one of them even had a gun, and god help them if they fought anything. But, they made their way through some super-bad RIFTS nastiness and actually saved the day with only a few shots fired. (My Players still talk about it to this day....when someone tells a story of how they have the most massive character in RIFTS...my group members always respond with..."Well I played a campaign as a FARMER!")

Rob

Re: Darts

For mooks throwing darts, there needs to be no change at all. Their best efforts with such wimpy weapons are for naught.

 

For experts throwing darts, let them buy their attacks as 1 pip penetrating, requires a Find Weakness roll. No amount of armor will protect against them, assuming the expert can find a chink in the DEF to put them through.

Hmm...I think what I will do is this...

Needles: 1D6 NND (not vs armour) since they only cause pain, but not injury.

Dart: As you say above, since they are big and dangerous enough to cause injury.

And, any poison attacks are linked to the above 2 attacks.

Thanks guys!

Rob

Re: WuXia Hero

UltraRob,

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. That's one of the reasons I had so much trouble organizing my thoughts.

It is tricky, I think being immersed in it is both a blessing and curse...

Also, I am all for simplicity...as long as players don't ask to do things they saw on tv that's hard to define within the simplified structure. (Then, I've gotta learn to say NO!!) I wish the famous wuxia authors had been more organized.

Yeah, I already noticed that reading both Gu Long and Jin Yong stuff, and of course watching the movies and TV shows...there really isn't a lot of consistancy. Actually, when I first tried to run a WuXia campaign one of the mistakes I made was not recognising that my source materials were presenting different concepts of WuXia theory and martial arts...I didn't realize that I needed to filter the materials and find a coherent focus which works for my type of gaming. (for those Superhero fans reading this, it's kind've like trying to reconcile the different power levels of the Marvel and DC universes into one coherent whole...they have different theoretical basis and philsophical basis behind them Marvel's "Men with the powers of Gods" approach, and DC's "Gods who walk among men" approach. They are actually not compatible with each other because they are completely different approaches.)

Anyway, for complex gaming purposes, I ended up somewhere around here:

I love your writeup here, do you mind if I archive this on my site? With credit given to you, of course. I think this is a great analysis of how to develop these powers using HERO. I was thinking along similar lines already myself (as you will have probably seen if you read my campaign guidelines) but you set up a simpler and more coherent structure than I had.

1. A lot of the gong fu has different 'levels' to them - different moves for external or attainment for internal. The fact of the matter is, it's just increasing power of the same basicattack. Some people spend decades trying to advance to the next level.

So, in the end, it's really just high active point levels. ^_-

I noticed the whole "level" concept (which HERO doesn't have) ironically applies very well in WuXia martial arts stuff. To the point where I was thinking of actually using a ranking system either based on characters or power level.

So it would either run like this:

(Based on Character level, and borrowing from Killer Shrike)

Character "rank" is equal to their total points minus 100, divided by 25. (This is assuming that 125pts is the base starting level for PCs in a campaign)

So it would work out like this:

125: Rank ("Level") 1

150: Rank 2

175: Rank 3

200: Rank 4

225: Rank 5

250: Rank 6

etc.

(Or, Based on Active Points)

Character Rank= Highest Active point power divided by 15.

(This would work regardless of starting points, I chose "15" because that is the cost of a 1D6 Killing Attack.)

So it would work out like this:

15 or less: Rank 1

30: Rank 2

45: Rank 3

60: Rank 4

75: Rank 5

90: Rank 6

etc

The reason I was considering this is because I find in Martial Arts/WuXia fiction that who is better than who is a really big deal, and characters seem able to sum up each other's power level in seconds. Unless they are hiding it, almost any display of true martial skill seems to show a character's "level of accomplishment".

So, if you used this system then with a good PER roll (or appropriate skill roll) the PCs (or NPCs) would be capable of having a rough "rank" to judge each other's skill by. I am inclined to use the "Character Level" system because the "Active Point" ranking system doesn't take into account the guy with 10 Combat Skill levels, but no real points in "powers".

This would also be a good metagaming tool for determining whether a character was "worthy" of learning from a master. Although it's one of those things that would depend on GM taste since a lot of Masters seem to pick students based on "what they might handle one day" instead of their current level of power.

As well, I have to admit one D&Dism I do like is the ability to tell my PCs the rough level of a potential NPC combatant and have them suddenly go from "Yeah! Let's get him!" to "Yessir Mr. Buttkicker, Nosir Mr. Buttkicker. Right Away Mr. Buttkicker." because they know they're not in his league. I find in leveless games like HERO, PCs never seem to think about whether the badguy is someone they can really take on or not. :-P

2. I agree with you completely, by differentiating the external/internal/hard/soft qualities by limiting powers to certain qualities.

The only problem is that even as I was writing that up, I was finding it hard to determine which powers should go where. It might be a very workable system, but it would also be a lot of work and thought on the GM's part.

So, I implement a martial arts skill. Anyone learning martial arts must successfully roll their martial arts. I figure one skill is enough.

Which do you think is better, a skill for "martial arts" in general, or a specific knowledge/ability skill of one particular art?

Before going further, I also want to say that 'side effects' (or losing control to the infernal flame) is a common theme, especially with regards to practicing qi. This happens when someone try to learn something too fast, becomes distracted in their meditation, or attempt to learn something incompatible to what they've already practiced. The effects can be anything from going crazy to losing their qi to losing their lives. Many old masters can no longer fight or walk because they messed up trying to learn some difficult, advanced gong fu.

I knew about this, but didn't give it sufficient thought I think...I think "side effects" are a great way to handle the problem of characters making skill rolls to learn Gong Fu skills. When I tried a system similar to yours, what I ran into was that even though I incorporated "extra time" to develop and learn skills it was far more practical for my PCs to make an 8< (or even 6<) roll every day than for them to take the extra YEAR to get that 8< up to 12<.

BUT, if we incoporate Side Effects into the roll as you have, it suddenly becomes really important that the characters only make that roll ONCE! Because every time they try it, they risk being screwed up, or screwing up the powers they are trying to learn/create. (Which can be a good plot device in and of itself.)

What about making it so that every 1pt (or 2pts) they miss their roll by gives them 5pts worth of Side Effect. This could be to the power itself, or even as a character disadvantage. (In which case I would say that every 2pts they miss the roll by gives them 1pt worth of character disadvantage points.) Or perhaps if they miss their development roll, they would have to make a roll on some "Side Effect Table" to see what happens to them.

Suddenly messing with Qi becomes a serious business, only done by professionals, and even they screw up sometimes!

In novels, you frequently read about the established, 'white' school that teaches people to take one step at a time (this minimize the chance of something bad happening) and the 'black' schools that emphasizes maximum power in the shortest amount of time (with maximum risk...like trying to advance 40 active points in 1 shot).

I like this idea too, that the PCs are toying with fire, and although they CAN learn mega-powers in one shot, there is a major risk and price to be paid if they fail. Anything which makes the Players gamble and think about how far they want to push things is a good idea in my book!

As to your question about how ying and yang oppose each other. Usually, greater qi wins regardless. However, ying or yang aligned powers also have the elemental damage kicker. Typically, only ying can heal yang damage and vice versa, however.

I think it's best to just leave them as a special effect, and not worry about them too much except in story terms. ("The damage from my attack cannot be healed, except by someone who knows the 5 Yin Fire Healing Technique, and the last master of it died five years ago! Do you still wish to fight me? Or will you taste my Gong Fu today?"

That's all for now. Again, hope I make sense. Time for bed.

 

Plucky

No, you wrote an excellent writeup! I understood completely and you made some really good points! Thanks for helping me out with this!

Rob

Re: WuXia Hero

Early Qin Dynasty China' date=' yeah. The PCs are Han, and the perennial enemies are the Manchu. In the absence of any real wuxia-specific stuff, I ended up doing about five pages of campaign guidelines myself, using Ninja Hero, UMA, and good wuxia/kung fu films for power construct ideas and general guidance.[/quote']

 

If you need ideas, and I can't recommend it enough, go to my page's resources section and click on the link to the online novel "The Book and the Sword" (aka "Romance of Book and Sword", which will be officially published here in North America next month as well, by co-incidence...), it was the first full WuXia novel I read and is about secret WuXia societies during the Qing dynasty battling it out with the Manchus. Amazing stuff, and inspired my first WuXia campaign in a major way.

 

It's ironic, the Manchu actually FIXED the Empire a Ming dynasty had thoroughly trashed, but because they weren't "real Chinese" nobody really respected them. Yeah some of them were right B*stards, but overall they were pretty good rulers in reality.

 

One thing I particularly like in my game is the Ch'i[/] Reserve. All "wacky powers" feed off of an END Reserve that can be no greater than the character's END; it has a REC of 5, with the Limitation "Only Recovers While Meditating." Thus, they may have some nifty little wuxia-style tricks they can do, but they can't do them constantly or they'll quickly run out of ch'i. It's working well so far.

 

Excellent move, that's why I plan to use that idea in my next WuXia campaign too. The first time I tried WuXia I let their Qi powers runoff normal END, and boy was that a mistake!

How many points are your characters based on?

 

We had a suitably high-powered combat the other night, in which our resident swordsman sliced off an evil Shaolin monk's foot (12 BODY to Left Foot... ouch), and Old Fox, practitioner of Sleeping Fist style, plucked a rope dart from his shoulder and threw it at a mook for a disabling shot to the vitals. Good stuff!

 

Sounds good! Nothing like a rolicking good martial arts fight!

 

Rob

Re: I need serious help!!!

As I said above' date=' give them both the same Focus (OAF, probably). If the Focus is damaged or taken away, then the powers can't work. It's that simple.[/quote']

 

I guess in the end, that's the best way.

 

Rob

Re: I need serious help!!!

5th Edition, Page 196, Last Paragraph, Relevant Excerpts

 

"When a character uses two (or more) Linked Powers, he activates and uses them simultaneously ... He only makes one Attack Roll to hit with them, and it must be the same type of Attack Roll ... However, the target gets to apply his defenses separately against the Powers..."

 

Unfortunately, when using linked powers, the damage of each power is applied separately to the targets defenses. So linking two "identical" powers only saves you points, but doesn't give you a more powerful effect.

I stand corrected. I don't entirely agree with it, but I can't argue with it.

I guess that was put in there to prevent various abuses, although linked already allows for some nasty effects. Of course, is this is the case, beyond special effect how do you make it to the "booster" shot requires the original gun to be working?

Rob

Re: Character creation problems solved

I moved away from discouraging high starting characteristics. If you make 20 be the starting cap' date=' then yes, you get characters clustered at 20 in useful characteristics. But if there is no cap, and I want to play a strong fighter, paying the extra 5 pts to get a 25 STR might be worth it. The extra 3 pts for a 23 STR almost certainly is. and it allows me to distinguish my character from the group. Same thing with Dex, Int, and Pre. Going over 20 takes some dedication to that characteristic. I think that's ok.[/quote']

 

A valid point, even when I had my players cluster at DEX:20, there was always one that paid for DEX:21 just so he could go first.

 

Rob

Re: I need serious help!!!

No he isn't. If you Link them, then he's getting 16 3d6K rounds and 7 2d6K rounds that can only be fired with the 3d6s. They'd have to apply seperately to the targets defenses, because they'd have to be two seperate attacks to be Linked.

 

If you want the damage to add, you can't Link them. Also if the damage adds together, it's impossible to use the extra damage without firing the main rounds so Linked doesn't limit the Power.

Wait? (Since I'm at school and don't have FReD with me right now...) Does it actually say two powers must be 100% seperate in FReD to be linked? And that linking them would make them seperate attacks?

That seems a little dumb, those extra 7 +2D6RKA shots in the above example are useless without the original attack power, and wasted points if anything happens to it. If I ever saw an example of where I would call a power "linked" this is it. And because they are declared a single attack by SPFX, I would declare them a single attack in any game I ran, not apply them twice.

Rob