Christopher

Well, Steve's answer in the Rules Forum just confirmed that the END for STR Minimums is still paid for each shot fired. GM's are of course welcome to change this. But if it is enforced then my proposed builds above would likely be needed.

 

HM

Good to know.

But I just remmbered: Are you certain the +1/2 version of Reduced END would cut it here? After all this is concerning END use from STR with a Autofire Attack. Reduced Endurance and Autofire usually means you have half the effectiveness/double the cost of Reduced Endurance Cost.

Well not quite. Shooting at and missing the character is not the same thing as not targeting the character in the first place, if only in that the latter means the attacker can attack someone else or at least save the END/Charge for later. But I agree if you're looking for something more affordable, this might be a good substitute.

True.

But maybe you just spend so much time pumping yourself up to Fire the Gun/Blast (wich you actually do manage), you did not have any energy left to actually aim it properly (so it does not hit). The moment the attacker commited to the attack action, the cost of said action is his own fault.

If you want to prevent the action directly, just tell the player of the effect after the first attack. Or maybe even when he decided to make the first attack to begin with?

At the moment the powers existence is known, the high DCV simply becomes a deterrent against attacking with vs. DCV powers. It becomes a better deterrent then Mind Control could ever be, because it actually affects the Players decisionmaking.

I remmebere that part about "Autofire and Multiple Attack" too, was just too lazy to find the rule

But now that it is here, I want to point one part out:
"However, this rule does not apply to situations or game elements that allow a character to make two or more STR-based attacks in a Phase (such as an Autofire HA, or the Multiple Attack Combat Maneuver). In that case,the character has to pay END for his STR once for each attack."

"STR costs Endurance to use. A character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in the Phase, as long as no more than one of those ways is a STR-based attack; he must still pay END for each STR-based attack separately."

I do not consider "weapons that do not add Damage from excesss STR" to be "STR-based attacks". That would mean what I wrote above seems to fit to raw quite nicely:
If you add STR, you pay end for STR for each attack.

If you do not add STR, you only pay STR once. With the "Autofire Surcharge" on STR Minimum, perhaps.

It is absolutely nowhere mentioned in the FTL write up, but maybe there is a hidden "unwriten" benefit to FTL in that is also ignores the problems of Relativity but Megascale Flight doesn't. 

I would say that does not apply. You do not incur "logical but annoying side effects" of powers, unless this is in the writeup (missteleport), a limitation or campaign rule.

Speedsters do not have to check if they run into a insect at Mach 5. That would be just about the same thing.

Technicalyl you would get a "stellar Road rash" at any fraction of the speed of light.

Not to mention that leaving FTL might well wipe out all life in the Target System.

The more you think about it, the more FTL appears to be a "Plot Device" power. Maybe something so you have a writeup if you need something like a "FTL Inhibitor" field.

But overall I consider FTL to be either part of the Equipment (at wich point the GM can apply stuff like need Navigation Rolls) or a clear cut case of "What not to spend points on".

It is illegal unless you buy it as extra equipment. It is that simple

Wich is a bit odd:

Tony Stark can buy two "Hand Repulsors" as part of his Power Armor, to use with Combined Attack.* You might even allow him to buy those as a single Slot in his Attack Multipower.

But the Human Torch can not buy two "Hand Blasts" because his powers are internal?

*I would guess most would allow him that even if he was using OIAID instead of Focus on his Poweramor.

I know you propably do not know the answer either, just wanted to point out that it is odd that someone with a Limitation has additional combat options.

Perhaps this is too difficult to explain properly and. Perhaps it's too expensive to build.

 

Line of sight being the attackers seeing her they have a very hard time bringing themselves to harm her "oh I can't hurt her". Only when specifically targeting her.

 

Maybe I should just let this one go, lol.

That is "+X DCV, attacker must see character (-?), Psionic (-1/2)". Wich is a really odd limitation for a defense, but should do exactly what you described. I would consider the limitation value to be very low. After all you kind of have to see the target if you want to attack to begin with.

What does it do/doesn't do right?

There are a lot of Fringe cases to potentially consider:

What if an attacker closes thier Eyes to "fire blindly" or "fire indirectly"? I am pretty sure the rules mention the "Aim via reflection" thing you would have to use against the classical Medusa.

What if an attacker has an alternate targetting sense?

What if the attacker is something like a Trap, Triggered Power or a Mindless Automaton?

AoE Selective/Non-Selective. Actually that the non-selective are affected usually makes less sense. With Selective you choose who to attack explicitly, so this power should affect the attacker subconsciously (and thus the CV of the attack).

Oh; I forgot earlier:

 

Christopher:

 

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "Character Taxes?"

 

Thank you.

 

Duke

Let's asume you have a 250 Point game. But everyone is required to spend 5 points on "Justice League Style Communicator". The 5 Points are a Character Tax. They do not really aid you at all. Indeed that device should just fall under the "what not to Spend points on" rule.

Most often I saw it used in the context of "excessive DEX/SPD/CV values in superheroics".

Superheroic values in DEX, SPD and CV are often very high. In 5E and earlier, they were mostly one Statistic (DEX) to begin with.

Even the "slow brick" needs to spend a few points "just to be competitive/properly build". They kind of give something if they fight normals. But most of the time they are just there "because the value should look high".

In a 400 point, 5-7 SPD game even the slow brick has to spend 30 Points on buying up SPD to at least 5. And just so the character is not a total drag on the team/get's to act regulary. Those 30 points are not really "for use as you see fit". You could have just as well started at 5 SPD and reduced points to 370.

I've seen published Hero System write-ups for faster-than-light vessels using MegaScale Flight, and MegaScale Teleport, as well as FTL Travel. It's actually pretty common in official Hero to have more than one way to achieve a particular result, like the difference between Normal and Killing Damage attacks; or building martial arts training as extra Limited Strength or CSL, rather than buying Martial Arts Maneuvers. Each approach may have nearly the same effect, but the mechanics and "flavor" of the construct differ somewhat; and those differences may lead a player or GM to prefer one over the other. Maybe one construct just "feels" more like the Special Effect of what the player is going for.

 

Note that the description of FTL Travel does include a clear quantified scale of speed per Character Point cost, which makes it simpler to use than calculating how much MegaScale of X amount of base distance in Flight or Teleport, at what Speed, would result in a comparable rate of travel. Plus it doesn't consume Endurance as the default. Valid reasons why someone might prefer it.

I never actualyl realised it until watching extra credits, but there apparently is something as "Meaning in Mechanics". And right off the bat, how you construct something in your game is you making effectively am mechanic. Again: We the players of Hero are also game designers, with all that entails.

Let us take light for example. In most other heroic games (D&D, Shadowrun), light is a minor trick. Something like a 0th or 1st level Spell. But in Hero it is actually quite expensive and complicated point- and buildwise.

I did threw around a few alternatives to make it simpler (inlcuding the option to just make your own "Light" power). But by now I realised it might be an advantage of Heroic Hero. Maybe the other games make Light to cheap? What if the scarcity and complexity could be beneficial for the narative?

Its line of sight. Only directly targeting her, enemies will have no problem targeting others with area effect attacks if she is in the area. I think I'm wanting something requiring willpower to defend against it so perhaps a presence attack would fit the bill. You guys have more experience at this than I do. I'm still exploring.

Since it does not affect AoE Attacks, I would once again say "DCV, Psionic (-1/2)".

It would still affect either selective versions of AoE (as those roll against DCV afer hitting the area), but that might actually fit right.

What exactly do you mean with "It is line of sight"?

Enemies naturally need to see her, to target her directly (otherwise "lack of targetting sense" penalties apply).

Does it mean she must see them?

What if they see each other indriectly, like in a mirror/refelctive shield/other reflective surface?

Do you want it to work like a less extreme version of the good old "Gorgon sight attack"?

I can speak from some experience in this regard. I have been trained in swordsmanship, and have fired both pistols and rifles on numerous occasions. They all definitely cost END to use. Rifles somewhat more so than pistols, and either in the same range as melee weapons. A really strong or fit person might not notice the difference so much, but I'm neither large nor athletic.

I can confirm that wielding a Melee weapon - even a twohanded sword - is not as tiring as one might think. A lot of the training is about negating the weight using the weapons own innertia/mass as part of the attack moves.

It should actually compare well to the STR needed to counter a weapons recoil.

Combined attack does not perform so well with two very similar attacks. But then why would you model two identical attack powers to begin with?

What if the attack was a Flash and a Blast? Indeed linked attack powers require Combined Attacks.

Or what if you got 3 Attacks?*

Also what if the special effects differ (and that matters from soem reason)?
What if draining of attack powers or Damage Negation is thrown in?
What if the attacks have different advantages that affect damage?

*While I am not sure it is officially defined for not-Equipment attacks, you could buy "extra Instances" of a power for a 5 point doubling adder.
That would mean I could do you "Claw, Claw, Bite" with only one power and +10 Points for 2 doublings.

Hi there! I would like your help in coming up with some alternate/streamlined rules for HERO. While I don't necessarily want to strip away everything and make it into a different game, I would like to see what options we can come up with that won't require rewriting vast chunks of the system. Also, this stuff is pretty much all subjective. I'm not really interested in a debate over the necessity or lack thereof here; mostly I want to see what options are doable, and then go from there.

 

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

Purely an aesthetic thing, but I really dislike roll-under. I especially dislike it when mixed in the same game (possibly in the same turn, even), such as rolling low to hit and then rolling high for damage. I would like to convert all target number rolls to roll-over, but preferably without breaking anything. Is this possible? If so, how do we do it?

 

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

I don't much care for the Speed Chart and multiple actions per turn. I'd prefer to simplify it down to a single round's worth of actions per turn, without necessarily having to lose Post-12 Recovery, or at least having Recovery still be a thing.

 

Related: I'd also like to make this easier when figuring out movement rates in more common/intuitive values. For me, MPH (even KPH) is a little easier to grok than "moves 2500m in a half-phase action." Or at the least, the "move 2500m as a move action" thing would be easier if I didn't also have to consider each segment in a turn. Since a lot of the games I'd like to use HERO for would involve trying to figure movement stuff like this, I'd like to find a way to make this much simpler.

 

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

I might need some help on specific builds or examples of play in action, to get a better feel for how things work, if anyone would be up for that. If so, I will come up with a few things and list them here. For now, I want to start with the above two items.

 

Oh, I guess one thing that comes to mind is adding DCs, especially with HKAs involved and such. Can someone break down a few different examples of how it would work if a character used an HKA, and what would happen if that character picked up, say, a broken bottle, a staff, or a boulder?

For game design questions, i would really advise taking a look at Shadowrun 4E. And 5E.

I played/learned 4E before Hero and the similarities are surprising.

Now recently I played 5E and I think there are lot of good lessons to be learned. For each of your points:

Roll-Under to Roll-Over

I think this was added/kept so there is a "difference in Kind".

Differences in kind play a important role in game design, so you find them in just about any system.

I recently realised that D&D saving throws are actually just "inverted Attack Rolls". Attack rolls are 1D20+Bonus (stat and level based) vs a fixed value (stat and gear based, thus indirectly level based). While Saving throws are just that, the other way around. And spell resistence is kind of just a normal attack roll, with fewer people having the defenses.

I can not say if we still need it. It is a bit bothersome in actuall play.

SPD Chart = RIP Chart

What I liked most about SR5 over SR4 was the changes to initiative.

SR4 had the exact same issues that Hero SPD chart has. It just had a the advantage of slightly shorter turns (4 phases over 3 secons).

SR5 is a massive improovement here. So much In propose the option of porting it to Hero:

www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92713-initiative-spd-and-shadowrun-5e-initiative/

Examples of Play and of Character Builds

As far as power goes, here is my old Power Guide:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/index.php?/topic/85482-power-guide/

One thing I like in particular about SR 5, is that they streamlinde the Character creation with the Priority System. And the Sum-to-Ten variant.

SR4/5 is about as complex during creation as Hero. With the Priority system they simplified it. But in turn the Priority system does not take it too precisely with the Point accounting. Since it does not work precisely with acconting, it allows you to go for the specialty area a lot harder (normally the cost for Skills increases the higher it goes. But with Priority you just got points to distribute, regadles of how many points that 6 skill would normally cost).

Thanks. I understand it's "legacy code". Were there reasons it was kept for 6e?

It is only the 2nd Edition since 5E and there were a lot of bigger fish to fry from 5E to 6E.

Funny enough, it never occured to me that FTL and Megascale Flight Overlap. Despite knowing that I would build a "Stargate" like system with "Teleport, Megascale, Gate".

I see a few reasons:

Megascale is still useable on "normal" Distances, where with FTL you would plain overshoot.

Megascale affects a lot other dimension the just travel speed. Like AoE coverage.

What was the acceleration/decelleration rate for Megascale with such a massive multiplier again?

As you pointed out, the effective travel speed suddenly is based on SPD. But not for FTL. The correllation between SPD and travel distance is a annoying property of Hero and at least FTL lacks it.

Are you certain what you want is not already worked into the STR Minimum rules?

I had to re-read the part myself, but there is a bunch of modifiers for the STR Minimum:

"

Using Two Hands: If a character uses two hands to
wield a weapon that normally only requires one,
reduce the weapon’s STR Minimum by 3.
Using One Hand: If a character uses a one-and-a
half-handed weapon with one hand, add +2 to the
STR Minimum (or, in the case of guns and other
weapons for which the STR Minimum doesn’t
affect damage, impose a -1 OCV penalty for
one-handed use). If he uses a two-handed weapon
with one hand, add +3 to the STR Minimum (or
impose a -2 OCV penalty for guns and the like).
Autofre: Autofre weapons have a +5 STR
Minimum unless fred in single-shot mode (or
thrown one at a time).
Bipod: A weapon fred from a bipod has a -10 STR
Minimum. (A weapon which can only be fred
from a weapons mount shouldn’t be built with
STR Minimum at all.)
Braced: When a character Braces (see 6E2 60)
while using a Ranged weapon, subtract 5 from the
weapon’s STR Min.

"

At least for Firearms (Does not add DC from STR), as I see it the +5 STR replaces the normal rule of "Autofire STR used END costs per shoot".

We have 4 very different cases, I think:

STR Minimum, STR can add damage:

You pay the END for used STR, per the usual rules of "only pay once".

STR Minimum, STR can add damage with Naked Autofire:

You would pay the Endurance per Shoot. After all, you also add damage per shoot. STR Minimum primarily shifts how much damage you can Add from STR and gives you a penalty if you got less then that. It does not change that you still could add Damage per excess STR.

STR Minimum, STR does not add to damage:

You pay the STR you need to fire the weapon, per the usual rules for "minimal STR use/pay only once for STR".

STR Minimum, STR does not add to DC plus Naked Autofire or Innate Autofire:

I would say that only costs you the flat +5 for using the Weapon that way once. You do not add STR to DC, so I do not see why Multiplying the STR cost would be nessesary. The weapon is slighly harder to control (+5 STR Minimum)

Multiple Attack:

I consider Multiple Attack simply a form of "Ad-Hoc Autofire". The CV modifiers are close enough, the use case similar enough (attacking same target multiple times or multiple targets). So whatever you rule for AF, should apply to Multiple Attack. And vice versa.

I am also not sure if we should allow combining Autofire and Multiple Attack. Stuff is getting wierd quickly in that area.

Note that Autofire advantage always includes some edge cases:

For example all Melee weapons are built with the +1/2 Version of "Lowered END cost". With a Naked Autofire Advantage, you would thus technically have to pay 1/2 END per shoot for the attack power you use.

I asked Steve Long years ago about this and I think is answer was to "let 5 be odd and just 0 END stand". It would be between 2 and 5 END per use if you do not.
A lot more with Handguns not inlcuding the +1 Version of 0 END, due to the much higher AP (all damage must come from the weapon itself).

Aside from explictly adding Complications via Side Effects, there is also Side Effect (Transform into being with Complication on the User). Of course the moment you put limitations on the Power 'inside' a Side Effect Limitation, I would use the RC rather then AP of the Power. Might even be part of the rules already.

There are actually RAW examples of Complications being built into powers (but only while using them):
Shrinking, Growth, Density Increase

The Complications those give are listed in 6E1 443ff.

Having said that, I think it is instructive to consider the original design rationale behind the RAW. I think knowing that rationale can help better guide modifications so that you know whether or not the logic you apply to your custom rule is at least as sound as that which drove the RAW.

I watch a lot of extra Credits and with the Episodes about "Future Proofing your design" I noticed:

The 6E rulesbooks do just that.

The Hero Philosophy Chapter is literally the "list of best practices"/"things for other designers to consider". With the other designers being implicitly the groups using the game system.

With the Hero System, we are game designers with all that entails:

Most other Rulesystems work via explicit orders. With teh result that something like the Shadowrun Improoved Armor (wich Spirits, a major gameplay element) has 3 different interpretations.

We don't let AP guide our Powers builds. Dice totals, things like that: sure; those are important. But not AP. We let the actual cost points determine all the related factors for a particular Power build.

 

[...]

 

"Flight: must be touching a surface (-1/2)"

 

So let's give him a total of twenty _real_ points in this Power- 40 AP, I believe.

 

When he uses this Power full out-- all twenty real points worth-- he will pay the END on those twenty points, not on the 40 AP.

 

 

Doing the same with an attack:

 

Let's say a 10D6 Fire Ball with a random -1/2 Limitation.

 

This attack costs 50 AP, 25 real points.

 

When he uses it at 10D6, he will pay END for using 25 points worth of Power.

 

Furthermore, however:

 

The Rules we use state that the Range of -- Blast? Is that the name now? I think it is. If not, then it's whatever used to be Energy Blast. In our groups, we renamed it "Ranged Attack" before there was a 3e just because it was more helpful when teaching new players. At any rate, our rules state that the Range of Blast is five inches for every point in a Power. (5" x pts). No; not quite. The Rules (eventually, if you dig around a bit in the older editions; much more clearly in the newer ones) state that the Range is 5" x AP in Power.

 

We don't do that.

 

 

Now a Player is free to purchase "Range" to offset this if he wants; he's free to leave it alone if he wants.

As said, this was a valid change of the rules.

And these are the design ramifications I see comming from the:

The Range change should have no real effect. I mean how often does a Range of 600m actually mater in a Superheroic game. Who would want to play on a map big enough for that? So that change is propably neutral to improoving the game.

With the Endurance cost based on RC rather then AP, effectively you lowered the baseline Endurance cost. Wich also means fewer points need to be spend on END and REC.

Since the Real Points define stuff like Endurance Cost, you also incentivised taking Limitations on powers. Wich also means the real cost curve of powers would have been lower in your games.

Both would indirectly lead to less expenses for powers. Wich in turn could lead results like this:

- the excess points must be bleed off somehow. Maybe the CV's increase. Maybe the SPD. Maybe less use of "what not to spend points on"? More Character taxes?

- having more effective points to spend on powers means characters might have been more diversified. I often felt like the 400 points with 400 point caps are too stingy a budget. I thought about using 500 point with 400 point caps, just to a get a bit more diversified Characters.

- stronger focus on skill or attribute based builds

It is those subtle, unpredictable effects I am usually most worried about. They sneak up on you and backstab you, when did not even knew you had to make a Spot Check. And worst as with Powercreep discussions, you might be looking at the wrong part as cause.

Whatever did we do to them?

We are the odd guys.

I mean think about it: They are 90% of all galaxies. No wonder they shun the 10% "shiny" ones, like ours.

Essentially yes. They always said that 90% of the mass was "dark". If there are 10-20 times the number of galaxies, then there's the answer. So Dark Matter is a non starter, but that still doesnt solve the "dark energy" delimma

Well, if the stuff was not visible it kind of was dark.

It appears only ALMA and Hubble together can see it all.

http://gizmodo.com/new-deep-space-images-reveal-a-new-type-of-galaxy-1786924442

 

I'm just dying to know how many takers they got.

Reminds me of that case where the Police took out a drug dealers house and while they were gathering evidence, people still came and wanted to buy.

Despite 2 police cars standing right in front of it!

Literally every part of KA's is designed to cause BODY damage over STUN. That is the entire reason we have this damage type/power to begin with.
It starts with it only working against resistant Defenses (wich are rarer/fewer), having a totally seperate way to be rolled (1/3 dice per DC with the sum being body) and having a much lower stun multiple as of 6E. Look at the average values and compare against average defenses. Consider that non-resistant Protection does block KA Stun, but not KA Body.

Wondering that a KA, NND underperforms is like wondering that you can not pull 50 tons with a Ferrari. We would actually be confused if the result was any different.

So I've moved onto working on Umbrella.

 

Umbrella is like Black Widow/Emma Peel with an umbrella. Any ideas for weapons that could be in the umbrella?

Obvious case would be a hidden Rifle. A similar old trick is to have a hidden sword in the hilt (like you would with a walking stick).

And of course everything the Penguin ever had (mostly rifles/automatics, gas guns and helicopter blades).

In Kingsman they had a Umbrella that was bulletproof, a weapon and could become partially transparent for the user/project stuff for the user to aid aiming (last part might have been a function of the glasses, however).

In the game MDK 1+2 the protagonist (Kurt Hectic) has a suit with a "Gravity Parachute". Basically it is Gliding. Except the surface is not closed but just a few ribbons. So while there is never enough surface area for actually gliding per laws of physics, the mad-science works out. So Umbrella could totally fly.

Another way to look at the Umbrella is at both sides as giant "emitters" of some kind. Sonic waves, light, forcefield or healing field (projeted downward), a force wall (projected like a Star Trek Shield emitter from the off end).

Only read chapter one so far. It appears to be a play on the "No mater how hard you fight, you can not save the world" thematic that is core of the basic Drama of being a Superhero.

Interesting. I suppose I hadn't understood what Steve meant what he said "over-arching 'meta-power'" in the rule book, although it does then go on at length about negative adjustment powers. 

 

Oops! So it's not necessarily the case that a two Unified attack powers can be used at the same time? They have to be linked? I was actually waiting on a response from Steve on this, but maybe he's taking a really long time to retract his hand after slamming it hard against him forehead ..  lol

Linked means two powers must be used together.

You can always use two independant powers together in one Attack. That is considered a Combined Attack (6E2 74). While listed under Multiple attack, it counts like a form of Strike.

Only real requirement is that you can use both powers at the same time. i.e., having two Pistols and/or having both powers assigned in your Multipower at teh same time.

"For example, suppose a military robot in a Science Fiction campaign has a pulson blaster (Blast 8d6) built into its right hand and a laser (RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing) built into its lef. If it fres each of them once against a single target, that’s a Combined Attack, performed as a standard Attack Action with +0 OCV, +0 DCV modifers"

I am still interested in hearing more thoughts, but I wanted to add this: 

 

If there wasn't really a convenient / cheap way of making a Multiform with unlimited forms, what you would folks, as GMs, be willing to hand-wave to make it happen for your PCs?

Basically you have the "Beast Boy Problem". Beast boy could be build on at least two ways:

1. A lot of Multiforms. Of wich each one might need to be written up manually. the natural animals are propably to weak to be usefull in a superfight anyway. While Hero generally does not have any absolutes, you can define an absolute. i.e. you could say that Ditto can take "the form of any Pokemon" with only x32 Number of Forms. You equate "X amount of Multiplier" with "every form".

2. Variable Power Pool or Multipower with stuff like Growth, Shrinking (Mice/Elephant), Flying (Birds), Swimming (Fish) and various attacks (HTH, KA's, "Spitting acid/poision into the eyes"). Changing the form is simple the action of "Changing Multipower/VPP selection".

In Beastboys case I do not see much need for a Shape Shift (the power), as he stays green in every form.

The one big advantage is that you can "mix and match" abilities. Beastboy could afaik "half shift", so he could actually mix the properties of two animals.

3. option is the "Adapter/Absorber" build:

Just have a VPP designed to "only what he can copy". There is a example VPP in the book.

But as I said above, those do have issues if the copied target uses a Multipower of any kind and with time to shift the slots.

4. is the Martial Arts way. HSMA contains a few example superheroic martial arts, inlcuding "Shiftercombat".

i.e., escape defined as Turning into a small snake. Grab defined as turning into a Constrictor snake.

I can not really see 4 working for your Ditto case. Just pointed it out for completion.

2 has the problem that it allows to "mix and match" powers across seperate pokemon.

1 could be the simplest way for a Pokemon conversion

3 has - as I said before - issues with changing of slots.

Is it based on Goku's Power Pole?

Goku (and the 3rd Hokage from Naruto for that mater) are in turn based on the Monkey King for "Journey to the West".

So it could actually go back to the original source or any of the myriad others it started.

But the Kami Lookout Access Pole does come to mind too.