Wanderer

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? As you say, it is debatable; Mind you, I am leaning to rule it the way you suggest, but some more strict GMs may ask for IPE (SFX only) in order to keep the defense power skintight and subtle, especially when it is built using Force Screens and Force Fields, that according to genre conventions are often visualized as not very subtle. This may be relevant if our normal-proofed Brick/Energy Projector is assumed to have a Secret ID. After all, invulnerability is one of the most common ways SIDs risk to be blown in comics and movies. Nonetheless, I would agree wiuth you (I'm all for point efficiency:cool: )

Notwithstanding how much I'm deeply appreciative of rule systems (and their developers ) that know how to make frequent and abundant use of the words "alternatively" and "optional", however it is sometimes nice to know what is the default and which is the alternative option. Therefore, If continuous effect mental powers are wanted to be both immune to Breakout roll deterioration with time, and to be easy to change the effect thereof (new Mind Control commands, varying the nature of Mental Illusions, etc.), with no need for new Attack rolls, which is the HERO default option, post-TUM: Continuous +1 Advantage, or the combination of Alterable Effect Adder, plus Long-Term Control at +1/2 Advantage ? As a sidenote, is it legal to combine the following common Limitations on a Mental Power MP: Normal Range, Subject to Range Modifier, No Mental Awareness, and Limited Range, for mentalist powers that resemble more "Brain Hacking/Telekinesis" than classic telepathic powers ?

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? Just a quick point efficiency friendly advice, using IPE at fully invisible level is rather wasteful for invulnerability effects, you don't generally want to disguise the fact you are tough, just what makes it so, no glowing force fields or suchlike, so you just need IPE (SFX only; +1/2). Yes, but again, this is an issue if you use either limited Desolid or Force Wall to do invulnerability to normal stuff. If you want to protect against normal chemical and biological weapons, you need a sizable LS also. Luckily, it is quite easy for brick and energy projector guys to justify having both kinds of defenses.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? This may be a concern for the method in general, but only really if the character meets cosmic or magic hyper-versatile guys with a cosmic VPP or Versatile Advantage on their Attack Powers, who can then justify whipping out an Affects Desolidified Attack on the fly (how often do you buy a multipower slot with that Advantage, other wise; it is pretty rare, in my experience). And in that case, these guys might just as likely whip out attacks that bypass other kind of invulnerabilities. Nonetheless, in the case at hand, this is a complete non-issue, since I cannot see any case where it would be tenously justified to put an Affects Desolidified on Real Weapons, apart from the exotic rare case of some cosmic or magician or gadgeteer guy using its VPP to enchant some mundane firearm. Anyway, that would be outside the purpose of the power, which is to make the super completely immune to real-world mundane weapons, from hanguns and swords to anti-tank rockets and bunker-blasting bombs. An handgun enchanted to hit ghosts is a superpower, and hence outside the scope of the power. There's no way under the sun that mooks or army stuff may have Affects Desolidified.

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks? According to my experience, the most efficient way to normal-proof a super is: Weapons of Puny Humans Cannot Touch Me: Desolidification (affected by Superpowers), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Non-Nuclear Real Weapons (-1), Always On (-1/2)

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age If you like Ultimate Universe, I bet you are going to like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme v 2.0. It has most of the same main inspiration and themes, fundamentally, only somewhat more grim and more into the conspiracy and political skullduggery. Only instead of "new, improved, and hip" versions of classic Marvel icones, you get very loose homages to the JLA, turned out in a very "realistic" universe. IMO, so far the best realization of the old "Superman-level metas walk among us in a realistic world" idea. It is rather grim, in places, and has reasonable doses of bloodshed, cynicism, and sleaziness, but here they do not feel as forced as in Authority. So I respectfully suggest Supreme Power/Squadron to the list of Iron Age icons.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Huh?? Well, whatever, OK. If you feel that the discussion is steering in a direction that would make you absolutely unconfortable or go flame-y, OK, I can understand. I can get very heated and sharp myself, when I feel like I'm defending my beliefs. Let's agree to disagree. Hey, you have been absolutely civil. There's no reason whatsoever for mods to step in. Really, I'm liking this moderators stuff less and less. I'm getting the distinct impression that many folks are chilling or self-censoring their speech for fear of getting an infraction, and I don't like it. It makes me annoyed more than a little worried.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Would you be willing to accept the "good guy honorable soldier who follows the laws of war", which you seemingly adopted, as the acceptable ethical standard for Iron Age heroes (to me it would be for all superheroic comics/RP, since I have no interest whatsoever in the other subgenres), which you would find confortable to read/play in all circumstances ? B/c, you know, for all that I'm a quite ardent and vocal supporter of Iron Age stories and morality, that's also the moral standard that I find most confortable to read, see, and play: nothing less (I have really no liking or patience with CvK and extreme pacifism, it looks like cowardice to me), but no really more, either, I'm interested about reading and playing heroic superhuman warriors and protectors, not maniacs that off jaywalkers. The only addendum that I'd make is that sometimes I find content with the above standard, sometimes I wish to read/play guys that make a little step further and take ultimate justice in their hands and are willing and happy to apply summary justice themselves and spare everyone the trouble of a trial for guys that would likely get a life or capital sentence in a fair trial anyway, such as bus-bombing terrorists, serial killers, etc. No Judge Dredd types killing petty thieves or drug dealers. But I don't mind lethal vigilantism, as long as the "victim" is someone that by a reasonable moral standard should be offed or sent away for good anyway, or their willing accomplices in a combat situation. I'm sufficiently distrustful of "the system" and mindful of the virtues of individualism to cherish heroes that take the law in their hands, as long as it looks like justice. I am quite in agreement that comics and stories should not enforce any type of sexual morality as an implied mandatory standard. Showing that *all* characters, notwithstanding their background and personality, should be promiscous swingers, or sexual addicts, or monogamous, or chaste, like it were the expected standard, is silly and annoying. I just find equally extremely annoying, and offensive, also implying that any type of consensual sexual conduct or lifestyle can make someone any less heroic. As long as you keep showing up to save the world, it ought not to matter a bit whether you bed zero, one, three, or ten thousand willing partners. You're equally the hero(ine).

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age What's your stance vs. the "Polished Iron" (Ultimate Universe, Supreme Power, Busiek's Superman: Secret ID) subset, then ? They have a similar approach yet they purposefully shun the neo-silver aesthetic and themes that Astro City still cares for.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I mourn the fact the genre lost a follower, and I respect your choice, and I can understand where you came from, but this attitude is just what I can't emotionally sympathize with the complaints of Silver Age nostalgics. Yes, Iron Age comics are full of self-serving weasely creeps that only a very generous definition may earn the label of anti-heroes. As I see it, the Iron Age is also still chock full of basically good people. It's just that IMO you can still be a quite good people even if you have a soldier mentality, rebel against some of the society's rules, or refuse conservative values. I refuse the equation that in order to be a good person you have to be an insufferable perfect saint or poster boy for "family values". If the heroes do things that could land them in jail, sometimes it might also be the case that maybe nobody should go into jail for the same thing in the same circumstances. Maybe it's also a matter of the RL personal value systems that we, the fans (or ex-fans) apply to the characters and stories. To anyone its own tastes, values, and preferences, but just as when Comics Code reigned and its values were the law for the genre, and the fans who disliked it chafed, now a reversal has happened. C'est la vie. Who knows what future developments of the genre may happen to appease or alienate current fans and ex-fans ? You have my sympathy, but please remind that to many fans there may be very meaningful definitions and portraits of goodness and heroism beyond the mandates of the Comic Code.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Well, I couldn't agree more. Well said

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age I can easily settle with superheroes that are ready and willing to kill to defend themselves, innocents, and the world, would balk at shooting thieves or slapping their mate, and do not tire my patience with crises of conscience about the demise of serial killers, terrorists, and mass murderers. I do not want to read about bleeding-heart saints. I want to read about heroic superhuman self-appointed warriors and protectors (or rebels) for mankind. Do not make me read (and lecture) about a moral dilemma that I wouldn't feel as such. The "good guy" soldier moral standard is the one I feel most confortable for superheroics also, and the one I feel most appropriate for the genre in modern times.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age With all the respect for the master, I do prefer "superheroes save people and kill people - who deserve it". I absolutelty agree, even if for intellectual honesty's sake, I have to point out that you know, the truly perversely funny thing is that even according to an Iron Age morality, Reed was right in what he did, even if his CvK motivations were oure crap. Saving Galactus was indeed the right thing to do, since his continued existence was necessary to ensure the survival of the universe, which outweights even the zillion body count Galactus has been reaping. But he didn't know it, so he did the right thing for the completely wrong motivation. What a thorny knot.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age How so very, sadly true. Welcome to two unconfortable truths: any villain is the (misunderstood) hero of his/her own tale, and ultimately, there is no such thing as absolute truths in morality. It's like mathematics, it all depends on the initial arbitrary value assumptions one makes. Indeed it doesn't, even in my definition. My own wholly arbitrary general definition of heroism is someone that is willing to sacrifice or put oneself to risk to advance the common good. I simply define superheroes as heroic people with superhuman powers. Well, I might agree, so far as personal sensitivity does mean dedication or at least willingness to continued self-inquiry of one's actions and choices, and the attention that means do not wholly destroy the means do not become paralyzing bleeding-heart squeamishness to do the right or necessary thing for the greater good, which IMO is wholly unheroic. And I like to see moral dilemma to develop about "tough choices" that resonate as such according to my own sensibilities (e.g. this sweet innocent little girl is the beacon through which Chtultoid horrors are about to step into our world, in dire straits do I toss her through the portal to Hell to prevent them from crossing over; even if I plan to rescue her later, or I join her to protect, can I send an innocent to Hell). According to the my sensibility, some supposedly "tough choices" of comics are non-issues: to make a classical example, IMO the "natural" reaction to the modern, serial-killer version of the Joker is to rip out his heart and walk away whistling, the only case when an hero should be wringing his hands about it is the doubt that by killing him one might risk to do a worse harm to innocents (e.g. maybe he may resurrect more powerful than ever). I dislike complete sociopaths, but I also dislike shrinking violets who agonize anytime absolute scumbags meet their richly deserved fate.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age The world of Authority is quite -ew- in several areas, one of the most important being the fact that almost anyone the Authority fights, from politicos to high-end supers, aliens, etc. gets to be such an extreme scumbag crossbreed of genocidal cannibalistic child abuser that you cannot but cheer up for their summary execution. But sex is rather tame and sane, in the comparison. Well, my reading of Gen 13 was quite spotty and rather ago, so I wield to your superior knowledge, oh Master of Continuity So she has a taste for young flesh. I can see it may look offputting to some, and it's kinky, but it doesn't violate my moral standards, though (as long as it's teens and it's consensual), so it probably fell under my radar anyway. Grunge definitely looks me as old enough to know when and by whom he wants to be bedded, so if he fancies older women too, they have my blessing, pass along the condoms. Ok, two kinky bits. The same Bill Clinton White House ? Well, I'll have to dig up and reread the TPBs where they get to be the committe acting U.S. presidents, to make a full judgement, I suppose that is the story arc you are referring to. They are a loving steady couple, and the combination of a buff brick and a gorgeous metamorph, they'd had to do something extreme in bed to impress me. Which miniseries ? After taking a glance to the horrid Kev stuff, I largely ignored most of the non-regular series stuff. Hmm, I remember we somehow argued the issue in the superheroic morality thread, and my opinion about the case stands, http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1230258&postcount=96 essentially it matters whether she has got a teen ager's mind as well. From what I can see in the last story arc, she definitely has, and a precocious older teen at that: the attitude, the urges, the maturity, the planning capability, the self-control. I know it looks paradoxical and mind-boggling (actually it's a typical case of the ontological time-travel paradox) that she pulled all the right mindset from nothing, but Jenny Quantum, like the Doctor, is a demigoddess, so she has the power, and from what I've read she has pulled the trasnformation well without any bad psych side effects. If a goddess decides it's right for her to skip some years of human development, and she apparently does it flawlessly, who am I to judge she hadn't the right ? What do you see as still "childish" in her ? I can see your points, but probably I'm too fanboy-biased to Millar and his political stances, to share them, and my guilty pleasure tastes are too much more in tune with sex sleaziness and hyper-violence to be shocked. I see the drawbacks but I'm still too forgiving to the author that made immortal quotes such as "Guys that are able to hear atoms splitting shouldn't ignore cries for help from torture chambers" and "This has to be a world worth saving, for us to keep putting our lives in the line for it", which I've waited all my comic fan career to read, not to be willing to forgive him much worse. Although his geological times in finishing Ultimates 2 have tried my patience almost to the point of snapping.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Fetish, what fetish ? I can think of *one* instance, where she tries to bed (and goes unfulfilled, no less, poor girl, as he falls asleep ) an allegedly "teen" hunky superhuman that is obviously well above the age of consent (as drawn, he looks like senior or college freshman to me). A single one-night stand a fetish for young flesh doth not make. Notwithstanding all the interesting kinky possibilities that are implied in Angie's metamorphic powers, I utterly failed to notice all the kinkiness you mention. Surely the failure of my porn-hardened mind to notice the nuances For the standard of the comic, they looked rather subdued to me. Yep, that was a truly bizarre plot development. I chalked it to the willingness of the author to amaze with a gratuitous twist "These Auhtority chaps are so ruthless, now we'll amaze you with a completely undeserved act of mercy" and laziness, as in "this character is just too gorgeous, I can't allow it to get the summary death she so richely deserves, so I'll get her a random Get-In-Heaven-Free card", which is indirectly sex-related (she gets spared because of her sex appeal). And having sex (someone in the team will bed her, and more sooner than later) with the former spirit of murder is rather kinky, so I concede this is rather kinky. You know, when I first read the story, I thought "Oh great, now they are going to have a pedophile controversy, too". But the more I read on, the more it made a bizarre sense. After all, she is the reincarnation of Jenny Sparks, she's a near-goddess (no much point in applying human strict standards), and she does it by her own perfect free choice. If she prefers to trade away a few years of childish innocence to jump-start herself in the joys and tribulations of adolescence, who can daresay her ? After all, it's a typical fantasy of children, and she has the godlike power to do it right. Hmm, I dare hypothesize that the thing that annoyed you wasn't even the pervasivess, it was the purposeful way it gets shoved in your face, like a political statement, because that's the way it is, at least for Millar. Gotta re-read Ultimate X-men more carefully, so far my main attention in the setting was for Ultimates, so I can't comment on the X-Men characters you mention. Gotta just mention I very much appreciated the way they treated the budding Spiderman-Shadowcat romance, very tender, and in general, the way the subject is treated in Ult. Spiderman. For all that we are talking about teens and their supposedly raged hormones, the issue was kept rarther subdued. Likewise for Ult. Fantastic Four. No Jenny Sparks and her musical chairs bed here. Again, I may have to re-read some Ultimate series, but that wasn't absolutely my impression. The amount of sexual content didn't strike me with the force and pervasivity of say the political commentary. It seemed to me a plot element among many. After all, these is about handsome/beautiful teens and young adults with healthy athletic bodies, big-city high-risk active glamorous celebrity lifestyles, I got to expect some serious amount of bed activity as natural, until it ain't to displace the fight and plot development scenes, it ain't to bother me. To a degree, it's realistic. I apply the same standard that I apply to a modern TV series, as long as the amount of romance and sex related plot elements aren't going to corner the other plot developments, I take it as natural. Or to use a RL comparison, as long as they don't get more bed activity than RL celebrities, I take it as natural. After all, Iron Age superheroes are the celebrities of their worlds.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Quite rue, but this way you can turn out into a drawn-out, long-term struggle. Again, look at the X-Men example. How long has gone this little incestous integrationst vs. supremacist mutant faida ? Of course there's no arguing with tastes. I only feel a little pity for you, b/c I'm able to take politics quite seriously, but I can also draw a lot of catharthic fun from seeing JLA or Avengers clones invade Iran-lookalikes or overthrow Bush clones. Probably in the same way that the contemporaries of my grandfathers enjoyed seeing Golden Age supers punch Nazi goons. Maybe it's a guilty pleasure, but still

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Looking at my city's comics/RPG/anime store, which kind of doubles for city's unofficial youth center (I sometimes joke to the owner, a good friend of mine, that she should claim a subsidy from the municipality for the civic service she provides), comics still hold a lot of appeal for young people, but the ages have moved: modern youth hooks up with comics in pre-adolescence, adolescence and young adulthood. it's not more about little kids, mainly, it's about pre-teens, teens and college folks. If this gets to be an accurate picture, I'm not worried about the future popularity of the genre: getting a long-term habit, err interest in (pre)adolescence is not that different in consequences from getting it in childhood (teens and college folks have more to spend, and more freedom to buy), and you are just as likely to hook up in both ages. Modern comics are supremely well geared to appeal to the interests of adolescents (what other reason for all the cheesecake), and many people do retain somethging of an adolescent for a long, long time nowadays. The genre has just moved its target age from little kids to adolescents and young adults, that's all.