Wanderer

Re: Power source or origin by era It looks like a rather good table to me, but I have to point out some IMO blatant omissions: a) "Cosmic Power" has been a steadily popular power source since Kirby. This does not necessarily mean gods, as it is often written to indicate a primordial power source tied to the very structure of the universe that may bypass or transcend personified gods Psi is another evergreen that has been around to soem degree since Golden Age, most definitely since silver; often it is used by mutants, but it's not restricted to them by any means c) In some Iron Age sources, the idea gets tossed around that some, maybe all, superpowers are powered by conscious or unconscious "reality warping" by one's mind, typically with throwing around some technobabble vaguely sounding like quantum physics. Often it is the mechanism that fuels the powers of mutants, by it's not resticted to them by any means (except in the settings where all supers are natural or artificially-induced mutants, of course). Some power sources often overlap (e.g. mutants and genetic engineering), but that's typical of the whole genre. Different writers often have different interpretations of nuances in a character's powers.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Why not ? if anything else, it is the motivation for a never-ending streak of both recurring fights, long-term struggle, and "my enemy, my love" soap-opera entanglements. All very good fodder for classical superheroic stuff. After all, what is X-Men, to the core, if not a stretched out contest to prove who's right about the destiny of the mutant race, Xavier or Magneto ?? Now picture that in addition to the integrationist vs. supremacist mutant ideological divide, you have all kinds of mutually opposite ideological subfactions in the superhuman community duking it out. In such a universe, WWII, Cold War, the War on Terror are also (if not principally) a contest and drwan-out fight between the respective superteams. It seems good superheroic fare to me. E.g. cfr. the postmodern Golden Age comics pitting Allies supers vs. Axis supers. The main problem is that you have to take care they don't accidentally blow up the Earth in the struggle.

Re: Super Origins

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age As it concerns the Millar Authority, I'm perplexed about what kinks you are referring to. True, all of them are definitely oversexed and amorous and often promiscous, and they make a point of aggressively flaunting it like a "pride" ideological bit, but... Jenny Sparks is quite promiscous, ditto for the old doctor (he had serious psych problems but it wasn't about sex at all), Jenny Quantum a teen (yep a magically aged little girl, but again she made it by her own will and she seems to have developed a teen mind with the body) who's eagerly about her first time, the Engineer and Jack Hawksmoor are pursuing an "open couple" romantic relationship, Apollo and Midnighter are a long-term monogamous gay married (and divorced, and proabably back together) couple, the new Doctor seems to have a (proabably mutual) crush on Swift, Swift lives the life of the promiscous celebrity, where are those kinks you speak of ? The infamous diesel-powered dildo wasn't about sex, was revenge torture. Desplicable, but no more sexual than killing someone by impaling. They are hyper-violent, but it isn't sexual. As for Ultimate Universe, I can't pretend to have a detailed mental picture of all the characters, so please what are the seemingly obvious examples you had in mind ? I can think of just one example, Henry Pym and Janet Van Dyne sharing a sadomasochistic mutually abusive relationship. I don't know if they can be defined kinky, they don't seem to be about a sexual thrill, they just seem to be two psychologically troubled people into mutual sponsal abuse. They seem to genuinally care for each other, though.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age You see, there is a fatal flaw in your argument: the lack of an universally agreed upon definition of heroes and heroism. To a degree, some Iron Age characters fall outside any minimally decent definition of heroism, you are right about them, but in other cases, they just fulfill a different concept of heroism. To make a typical example, the Authority characters fulfill my personal ideal of heroism in ways that traditional superheroes never did nor probably could. It's OK to desire an idealistic streak in superheroes, but let's remember that ideals may definitely differ. The hero of some is a villain to others and viceversa. I hope I didn't sound polemic, I just wanted to highlight an obvious counterargument.

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age Yes, of course I was making sarcastic humor, sorry if I forgot the emoticon. Yes, I'm basically trying to find lame excuses for the fact I love cheesecake, but... if you are as individually powerful as top-end superheroines that love the cheesecake outfit (e.g. WW, Ms. Marvel), who's going to dare criticize them ? Remember the old gorilla joke. After all, such heroines (but in many ways the argument could be enlarged to male heroes, too, with their skintight spandex or leather outfits) have typically near-perfect athletic bodies, captivating longeve beauty, aggressive self-confidence and some of an exibitionist streak (as psychologically implied by their career choice of showoff crusaders), and no reasonable fear of bodily harm from 99% of mankind. Why shouldn't they, amongst all, flaunt it ? The kind of conservative morality that would taboo it is, as others have pointed out, often the ideology of the enemy in such comics. Actually, I would expect it that to a degree, use by high-profile celebrity hero(ines) would glamorize such clothing styles. In a realistic society, super-heroes and -heroines would be the absolute celebrities and role models, in ways unsurpassed even by our celebrity-obsessed society. In so many ways, they would become ideals: undreamed-of personal power, heroic, glamourous lifestyle, popularity, physical beauty, who's going to daresay them ? It wouldn't be "superheroines dressed like hookers" anymore, it would be "hookers dressed like superheroines". It would become a kink, like nurses. Yep, conservatives and traditional organized religion would still howl, but they are the implied or acknowledged enemy anyway, and I would daresay that in a realistic society full of godlike mutants, aliens, not to mention the apparent return of mythological gods, the appeal of traditional organized religion would be seriously diminished anyway. Anyway, I can picture hordes of teenage girls and young women fantasize to be, and dress like, the superheroines. It wouldn't be demeaning because it would become empowering. If the 800-pound gorilla fancies a pink tie, wearing a pink tie is cool. You're absolutely right. I'm not trying to justify their carss greed, I was just pointing out an additonal reason why they have done it. Sometimes they have done it basically right (Ultimate Universe), sometimes less right (Onslaught, the myriad confusing DC Crises).

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age The guys that get steel-bursting super-strong punches or energy blasts in the face ?? Also in order to wipe out continuity and rewrite to a clean slate so they can write new stories without checking a database half the size of Wikipedia for every issue.

Re: Super Origins OK. I think my point is abundantly clear by now, anyway For once, things go as logic dictates they would Sadly, this is not entirely true, since I do believe that JLA vs. Avengers is continuity (at least for DC; it is heavily referenced in the last CSA story arc), which exposes this Thor fan to the very painful canonicity of Kal-el (barely) beating down Thor , with Supes not taking a beating from the supposed magical hammer and its equally magical energy blasts, no less Well, maybe Young (Slo-)Lobo he was kinda depowered and genetically sick Point taken. It still stands that Bats beating WW in no-holds-barred sparring match looks quite silly, just like the Hulk bit. I may concede a slight advantage for her having been blinded, but still.... it sounds more like some mysoginistic WW fanfic

Re: Villain Team Application form Sadly dunno about Doc Caliban (just wikied it... disturbing but interesting, I can see where the sex/death orgy bit came from), but Miracleman wasn't such a perfect mix of unbridled godlike power, terrifying ever-deepening psychosis, and wallowing self-pity as your fictional applicant looks like. He was fundamentally sane and idealistic, only dealing with the lingering aftereffects of long-term amnesia. Doc Paragon really reminded me of Sentry, past his fourth or fifth origin retcon Even if admittedly, he failed mention anything about even eviller alternate personalities (or maybe -shock- good ones...) I am suddenly reminded of a Planetary issue where a loose disheveled Supes clone makes similar complaints to Doc Paragon's. Loosely quoting from memory "If you deemed me quaint and no longer interesting, you'd have left me alone. I was happy the way I was. I was a product of idealistic super-science. I really didn't want to know I was born from genetic experiments on Hitler's sexual slaves. I wasn't even aware that Hitler has sexual slaves !!".

Re: Villain Team Application form Oddhat, you naughty boy, will you please stop cheating with my character design notes (and Sentry's, by the way) ? You'd make me almost think you do not deserve the rep

Re: Super Origins Yep, and it was the full, "You Are Worthy, My Son" Beta Ray Bill thing, not the "Only This Time, Big Boy; Don't Get Any Ideas" Superman thing. Too bad it didn't went with the usual Asgardian power boost and change of costume that Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike got. A hybrid Norse Thunder God - America's supersoldier icon costume would have been... interesting to see. And it might have been the topic for a whole What If Story: What If Steve Rogers Got Mjolnir ??

Re: Super Origins If it is indeed so (but see below), I drop several of my objections. False memories and all that. Sorry. But I also seem to have this fuzzy, perpheral-vision, memory of a high-end powerhouse brick (Hulk, probably) being defeated by some street-level martial artist-type (Daredevil, perhaps) with some quick pressure points-technique. Can anyone confirm if this is true or false memory, too ? As I said, I have no objections to the Batgod's sthcik (sp?) of always having a decent edge or ace in the hole, if afforded some pre-planning. Sometimes he gets written with maybe just a bit too hype, but super-smart humans are well within my boundaries of believability and they build upon a very strong fictional tradition, both in genre (Dr. Doom is probably the closest analogue, IMO, and I am an old big fan of the good doctor, even if the most recent appearance was completely out of character) and out of it, and he has my fond blessing. Green Arrow and Hawkeye still suck deeply, however (even if Arrowette I, notwithstanding the suck-y power set, was a very nice and charming young woman, the little time she was around in Young Justice). Sorry to sincere fans. You see, this example is instead just where I draw my line and what I find deeply objectionable in the BatGod character. Bats vanquishing WW by means of some clever pre-planned trick (the way he did with the whole Jla in that sotiry arc that caused his expulsion) is fine. Keep go. Him holding his ground or besting her hand-to-hand, when Diana is supposed to have at least just as good combat training (all those Paradise Island sparring sessions, not to matter decades of superhuman battles) AND high-end superhuman physical attributes, when all other JLA powerhouses fail, smack me of really gratuitous Larry-Sue fanboyism. He is already world's greatest detective, strategist, etc. Couldn't he be just left taking a beating from his physical superiors, when he meets them in their field ?? Too bad for Superman that Batgod wasn't around when Doomsday was rampaging, otherwise he would have spared a death and resurrection.

Re: Super Origins Unless some Hero forumite happens to be Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen in disguise, I fail to see how I could have insulted them. As for arrogance, well, you are probably, sadly right. The dark side of self-confidence. Sorry. I guess it's written someplace on my Heavenly Char Sheet. Quite true. As a matter of fact, my whole argument is based on the fact that a thematic tightening of superheroic origins would improve the believability of the genre. If anything, I was arguing for more plausibility. Of course, this is based on the aesthetic assumption that better believability = better quality. To my justification, I can argue that it's the same kind of aesthetic preference that has led many comic authors to rework the origins of many iconic superheroes that growing scientic knowledge or changing societal sensibilities has pushed out of believability or taste. I would simply like to take the process that birthed the Ultimate Marvel Universe, the Wildstorm Universe, and John's Byrne Post-Crisis Man of Steel one step further or two. Blame my excessive enthusiasm and impatience to purge the genre of legacy bits if you wish. Differently from several of you, while being a veteran of the genre, I feel no nostalgia of reverence whatsoever for the "classic" incarnation of the genre. I've experienced the transition from Silver to Bronze to hardcore Iron to current postmodern as a constant improvement of quality and to a large degree, the fulfillment of my rookie fan dearest wishes of back then, hence my impatience to drop the legacy baggage. I cannot answer to this b/c I don't understand the idiomatic sense, sorry .

Re: Super Origins Yep, I guess my intense antipathy for the Green Arrow character types shows. I've never been able to see them other than exceedingly stupid and cheesy circus refugees. Sorry to Oliver Queen and Clint Barton fans, but to my eyes, they look just like Foxbat. At least, Batman types have the polymat angle and the "world's best strategist" niche to grant them coolness.

Wow, I got to make the first rules question of 2007. Do I win anything ? Hope your New Year's Eve was satisfying, Steve. Mine was unluckily spoiled by flu Anyway, to gamer crunchy business: the rulebook and FAQ mandate that Succor SPD, and Extra Limited SPD with costs END every phase, once activated must be maintained for a whole Turn, no matter what. Now, what would happen if the character would exaust his END supply before the end of the Turn, either by the SPD boost itself, or the concomitant use of other powers ? Does the SPD boost shuts down prematurely at END 0, or does it start to eat up STUN until the Turn is over, all the way down to Knockout, if need be ? I seize the opportunity to commend the very good job, as always, with Ultimate Mentalist. Too bad it has heightened my appetite for Ultimate Energy Projector. How far is that one ??

Re: Super Origins Wrong cosmology. But I can easily see him being bestowed with yet another replica of Thor's Hammer. Stormbringer America or somesuch. Too bad Asgard went the Krypton way Wait, he could forge a ring with a slice of some cosmic cube, I suppose.

Re: Super Origins

Re: Super Origins Please wait a moment while I don my Magneto uniform; nothing like a bigot lynching mob crushed to pulp early in the morning to brighten my day

Re: Super Origins Make no mistake, this transhumanist still feels a very deep appreciation for the character concept you describe. It's only that I can appreciate it fully when its empowerment is expressed in ways that do not punch my suspension of disbelief in the eye: magicians to me are the perfect expression of the "transcendant human" who pulled oneself to godlike status by talent and effort. I have no difficulty whatsoever to accept that Dr. Strange and Zatanna can hold their ground with Thor and Superman. Likewise, I have no difficulty when martial artists with very high power levels are justified by using exotic training regimens that tap supernatural (inner, like chi, or cosmic, doesn't matter) power sources and allow them to do outlandish stuff a la Fist of the North Star or Supersayan: after all, when Resplendent Path of Infinite Power routinely allows you to shoot fireballs, spit steel in twain, and cause random body parts to explode with a touch, it is but high-fantasy magic with martial arts trappings. It's quite fine and I have no trouble with a Supersayan holding their ground with a Superman. But then I wish to see the wild wuxia/anime feats to justify it. Or, to use an high-tech comparison, Neo is another excellent example of the "transcendent human" archetype, and I would no problem with accepting a comics character based on him, who can just hack normal reality instead of just machine reality. But I would wish to see him doing "his Superman thing" as justified by him being a reality-hacker, not because he "knows Kung Fu" really well. It's not about the concept, it's about the means they use: the Batmans, Green Arrows, and Hawkeyes offend my suspension of disbelief (and hence cause me to deem them silly and obnoxious) in ways that the Dr. Stranges, Kens of Hokuto, and Neos do not. "Training oneself to the peak of mere human perfection" IMO means you still rank quite, quite low in the meataphysical power totem pole and you stand ready to be utterly crushed when you dare mess with your betters that have transcended humanity. Being the best pathetic human still leaves you a pathetic human. A human CAN raise quite, quite above, but then he needs abandon mortal trappings and limitations, transcend humanity, and uplift oneself into the realm of the gods.

Re: Super Origins Skillful strategy, psychological trickery, ultratech gadgets, magic, or clever exploitation of character's weaknesses (either kryptonite, or Psych Lims) is all good. My problem is when they are supposed to stand up or even best to powerhouse clones at their own hand-to-hand game because they are "real good". Batman clones dropping Hulk clones with Vulcan nerve pinches and suchlike. David had a helluva high Divine Aid to characteristics. He was no more "mundane" than Hercules or Gilgamesh. Again, having Divine assistance misses the point: you are no more "mere human", and I see no problem in you dropping giants.

Re: What's the Kryptonian speedster benchmark ? Hmm, to sum it up, you would suggest to set up things this way: STR, DEX, CON, at 15, or so, for the "unpowered" condition, SPD at 3, the same chars at say STR 80-85, CON 35-40, DEX 30, SPD 7, for the "usual" superpowered stuff, and a Succor STR, DEX, CON, and SPD of 10d6 or more for when the Krypton guys and their thematic clones pull their gloves. Or alternatively, the same amount of characteristics, with Costs End.

Re: Super Origins Admittedly, I was more mindful of Karate Kid, the movie, than of the character you mention, in my comments. I'm only vaguely aware of the character you state (since for my peace of mind, I wouldn't touch the concentration of hard-core Silver Age childish silliness that hosted such luminaries as Matter-Eater Lad and Bouncer Boy with an NBC suite ). but my comment stands. The very concept of a "straight" martial artist being able to fight a Kryptonian to a standstill is just the kind of legacy crappiness I wish to banish, along with gorillas, cities in a bottle, and super-pets. Unless it shows up with a background being the only begotten child of the God of War or having the most cutting edge combat enhancements this side of Apokolips, no such character sheet is going to survive crumpling. Luckily, the GM is not obliged to greenlight the cloning of any stupid or distasteful character concept or plot hook just because it was published once. E.g. to quote a non-Silver Age example, the Ms. Marvel mind control/pregnancy/rape/incest story arc never happened in my universe.

Re: Super Origins