Vondy

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? The Chinese had a habit of saying entirely new polities were the continuation of their predecessors as a means of claiming legitimacy even though they were entirely separate - but many of these did last a long time and their civilization remained remarkably stable.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? I agree in terms of formal usage. But Lucas sold out and produced black and white kiddie films with morality to match. In that context it doesn't make as much sense.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? 1) We don't know if bespin and tatooine are republic member worlds or are just fringer outposts. 2) Even if they are members, we have no basis to determine how prevalent such worlds are so you have no basis to make such an argument from. 2) And we're still talking about inhabited member worlds. Each of those systems will have other moons and planets to exploit economically, let alone nearby systems that are uninhabited that interstellar corps may be exploiting for resources.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Also, The opening crawl from Episode III... "War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere...." SNIP! Heroes on both sides? Really? But you just told me one side is EVIL!

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Lucas has said there are two parallel universes - his universe (G-Canon) and the one fans expanded in the licensed materials (C-Canon). His canon consists of the six live action films, the clone wars his production notes (most of which we never see unless they were in a script). He also includes the clone wars movie and the clone wars television show (2008), but treats them as having lesser authority - ergo, if they disagree with the live action films the live action films when. Hence, he says they are a subset of G-Canon called T-Canon. The expanded (parallel) universe canon (C-Canon) consists almost of all of the novels, video games, and the comics that came after he realized the older licensed materials contradicted themselves and his movies in big ways and decided to hire people to sort it out and manage that for him. As a result, some of the older stuff is relegated to a subset of C-Canon that I don't recall the designation for. He basically respects the EU creators are enthusiastic innovators and wants them to have a certain amount of leeway - but doesn't want that to impact his work. He also says doesn't read any of the EU on purpose, but has allowed screenwriters to pull in a few popular elements in the prequels and TV shows. He also had them work an an encyclopedia so he can be sure he doesn't duplicate names, etc. So, basically, for WORD OF GEORGE canon you are looking at the six live action films, his production notes, and the clone wars stuff.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Of course, we could all be getting carried away in terms of scale. George Lucas is not known for his discriminating sense of proportion or deep world-building. He likes to throw impossibly huge numbers around because they sound impressive. I propose he's full of fish tales. And some of his characters aren't any more reliable than he is. Obi Wan says, "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." Sounds like a myth. Or popular sentiment. Or propaganda. And no one could call Obi Wan a reliable witness. How much of this was just his point of view? Darth Sidious' contrary "A thousand years" is more realistic – and no canon resolution is provided. I propose Lucas doesn't know – or care – how old the Republic is. He's said himself his world and his widow are centered on the life of Anakin-Vader and that he doesn't concern himself with the “parallel universe.” Well, not beyond making a profit... And then there's the number of planets. I went through all of the scripts with CTL+F searching for planet, system, and world. Guess what: in the original three movies no one mentions how many systems there are. The only references are in the prequels - well after EU fan-wank made up big numbers - and the prequel references are... unbelievable. On screen there have only been 34 named planets and 47 named systems in the movies AND the clone wars televisions how. And in Lucas' production notes for AOTC he writes "There is unrest in the Galactic Senate several hundred solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic." But then he gets carried away... Dooku says of the worlds that have joined the separatists, "Thousands. And more are leaving the Republic every day." In another cut scene, "As I explained to you earlier, I'm quite convinced that ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen." Before he did that the improbable scale of the SW universe was drawn from the EU materials and novelizations – the latter of which Lucas admits vary from his movies because he didn't keep the writers on a tight leash. Ergo, they didn't count. The question is... is Dooku serious – or is it possible he's given to hyperbole, propaganda, and poetic exaggeration to make a point? In my book this guy is no better than Kenobi! I prefer Lucas' production notes - and suspect he doesn't know or care how many worlds there are in his universe. He named fewer than 50 in the movies and fewer than 20 appeared on screen - that's all of the SW universe he needed. The massive scale is superfluous to the actual events and and story - so who needs it? Based on “several hundred solar systems” joining the separatists – and giving the republic a run for its money – its entirely reasonable to assume a more “realistic” republic of “a thousand worlds.” Ahem.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Let us not forget Panama.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? In general, I agree. But your position is too black and white for me. I would note that the greatest world-changing 'civilian' innovation to take the world by storm in the last twenty years is the internet - which was a pentagon project in the beginning. The first working radar was also a military project. And the jet engine. Its also been at the fore of communications satellites, etc. There's more crossover between military and civilian innovation than is immediately apparent because the military's information, logistical, and technical needs often have application outside the military. Which is not to say that the military isn't focused on killing people and breaking things, or that war is good for technological advancement, or that most non-weapons advances the military brings happen during war. Most of these are peace time innovations as the military prepares for war - not something it develops while fighting.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Geeks must puff up their chest feathers and debate theoretical play-pretend minutiae. If they don't they do not accrue geek cred.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? I don't think that machines programming machines is proof the machines themselves were necessarily deeply sophisticated. Yes, talking robots are impressive, but how pervasive (outside droids) is computer function in the SW universe? In the original films, even if the computers amount to hyper-advanced AI, they weren't actually used to do very much on a practical level. Advanced, sophisticated computers should, by all rights, permeate a universe that has them due to their capabilities. But Lucas still has has people doing things in the SW universe even our computers could do today. I submit this is because Lucas had no idea what it meant for a universe to have advanced computers in it. Indeed, the computer technology, and droid technology, in the prequels is more advanced than the original movies simply because we - and Lucas - are starting to see what computers really mean on a practical level. But at this point he's locked into his original paradigm. My point? Simple: having advanced computers is immaterial if they don't actually do more than beep, blink, and spit out information.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? You have to remember that Lucas is older than we are and that the star wars universe was first imagined almost two decades before the ubiquitous personal computer. It was released about 13 years before that point. That computers were not a huge part of his conception of the star wars universe isn't really that surprising, especially when one considers that its not really science fiction. They're there, but they do rudimentary things, much like most computers back in the 1970's. Even the old star trek's computers weren't, for the most part, that advanced or heavily leveraged story wise. It was TNG, which burst onto the scene in the 1990's, where computers became more than something that chirped, blinked, and spit out data. Lucas established the rules and "tech baseline" for star wars in the 1970's and isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, a 'futurist.' So, you've got hyperspace ships, lazer swords and guns, and holo-grams, but computers that just chirp, blink, and spit data out.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? I've always thought of it as a norse sage.

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Her movie poster tagline: "Yoda was the most powerful Jedi of his generation. Yoda was a nancy boy."

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them?

Re: Younger PCs; Older Players That's a little more extreme than what I'm thinking! More like, should a 15-17/18 year old hero (hotshot magicians apprentice, squire, young lady, journeyman apprentice, street tough, etc) be in a game where adult themes like sex, drugs, rock-and-roll, political corruptions, and gritty violence may well dominate.

Re: Fantasy Economies: How closely should we examine them? It think world designers need to put enough effort into the economics for the world to have verisimilitude, but not try to develop detailed economic models. Also, the impact of massive troves everywhere needs to be considered. As a rule, PCs would be flooding the economy and causing problems if they were to accumulate the kinds of hoards a lot of games seem to assume they will. There has to be rewards, goals, and methods for growth for the group other than just filthy lucre.

Re: A Thread for Random Musings Peeve time. Using 'gender' in the place of 'sex' annoys me. Gender is a range of characteristics distinguishing between male and female, not the biological sex of a person. It used to be rare to see 'gender' used for anything other than grammatical categories. Over the past decades it has expanded to represents the indicia of a sex, the role of a sex, and even the identity associated with a sex, but it is not and never will be the sex of the person. Meanings change over time, but gender cannot be used universally to represent male and female. Oddly, my other peeve, is gamers who regularly refer to women as 'females.' We have other words for women. Like women. If you are not a law enforcement officer, medical professional, or filling out a form requiring the sex of the person referring to women as 'females' is one of the indicia of being a socially maladjusted geek.