greypaladin_01

I have been digging through my collection of HERO books, which is more scattered than I realized, in hopes of finding guidelines each edition had for the range of Stats, SPD, CV, Skills, AP and other game elements. My brain had convinced me that each edition had these guidelines but so far the only version I could find was the Aaron Allston 5e Champions Genre book. The information is on page 126 and breaks down all the listed elements by power level of the campaign (Low, Standard, High, Cosmic, etc) While part of my question deals with comparing the power levels by edition, I do not want to list the chart here, I am unclear on how that would fall under guidelines. Does anyone know if/where the similar breakdowns for other editions could be found? Thanks!

It was mostly just little things to be honest.... they kept things pretty separate overall. Just a few references here and there to things on the side. at least what I remember. But still is some good stuff in there overall

Yeah I am pretty much in the same camp. Yes they had their reasons, but most of those reasons felt very fringe and complication for sake of complication to me. Now that is probably just my experience in 4e... we did not make super detailed or edge case builds at the time.

While 5e had all the setting books as part of the same timeline, there is ultimately very little true crossover that goes all theway through. But to answer your questions on what I do know (or at least remember) Turakin Age: high fantasy time. setting book Valdorian Age: sword and sorcery conan type setting book Monster, Minions & Nobles: fantasy game enemies book.. for Turakian age i think hope that helps

This very much seems to be the Rules As Intended concept for it. You purchase Big Iron (RKA/OAF) then for 5 points you can get another Big Iron as a back up. Either to use when first runs out of charges or if it was disarmed, dropped, etc. However this is where the variance of HERO rules gets weird again and this should fall into the GM approval category. Heroic level games often do not make you pay points for gear anyway, so it is pointless. When playing Superheroic then you are facing weird abuse/logic failings. (like the Ring example above, I cant think of any GM that would approve it..but RAW there is nothing saying no) However I am pretty sure the 5 point doubling came about specifically for us in the Dark Champions / Action Hero game genre, where the game wanted to make people pay for gear but did not want to make characters 500 points to cover it all. (In fact the option rules for Equipment Pools came from this as well) If the doubling rule fits the game you are doing then great, if not then just say no, or put limits to 1 copy only. It is a system that is much more open to abuse than normal for HERO.

I agree, it feels like a major missed opportunity for the Complete line. They could have made "games" again that refer to the toolkit for more advanced play.

I agree 100% that not every Talent / Skill / Perk / Power is appropriate for every genre, at least not without major GM/Player coordination. But that does not mean that codifying everything, very clunkily often, makes things any better. HERO has fully committed to the Toolkit approach for the bulk of it's history now, but has lost much of it's ease-of-use in the process. My Instant Change example above, how Transform was altered from a single power into Linked Drain/Aid and if I pulled my books out I could probably find dozens more examples. Most of these changes took simple and straightforward ideas and changed them in to huge word blocks of bloated mess that will make any player's eyes glaze over trying to parse. I mean if you look at Espionage fiction, they do have 'quick-change' outfits and who is to say there is not Fantasy Fashion magics or Hats of Disguise, but those are just a case of finding the right special effects to fit the situation. The toolkits already have places that point out how certain abilities may not be appropriate to all genres, I think mostly in skill/talent/perks sections, but they could have just as easily left something like Instant Change alone and given it a similar warning. I mean all of us like having options and detail on the characters but the bloat of the game is extremely visible when you compare the two Strike Force books. The original (3e) pretty much every character sheet takes up less than one page, allowing you to look over the character in a glance. The updated version (6e) now characters are taking 2-3 pages and are much harder to interpret at a quick glance. This is most obviously apparent when looking at the "Start of Career" sheets for characters that are in both books.

I remember having a few of these as a kid, along with the Endless Quest and Lone Wolf. I could see how something like this could work as co-op card game.

This continues to be fascinating to see your approach. Especially pulling in elements from so many sources!

I need to dig out my copy of the book to look, but I don't remember people buying back their natural EGO at all. The Cyberbrian stats exist to deal with Hacking powers and abilities, but you would still need your natural EGO to deal with Esper powers and abilities if they came up. I have not confirmed this from book, but that is how my fuzzy memory recalls it from when I read it a year or so back.

Pretty much this. There is very little wrong with HERO at the purest mechanical level, but it completely lacks polish and presentation of a finished game. Because it is NOT a finished game, it is a gaming toolkit. It is the difference between giving someone a LEGO set and a trash bag full of LEGO pieces. Both can be used to make things, but the guided set is going to be easier for someone to create THIS THING, the bag of parts will let you make anything you can assemble...but the colors might not match and it may look a bit clunky and weird at places. Which is more likely to excite and interest the First-Time Buyer? All I am saying is that for HERO to have a chance to capture new people as time goes on, it needs to have a way to cover the Inner-Workings up at the User Level. Not hide them forever but make it so things work and can be put simply on a sheet for people to try and like and play. Then SOME can go do Advanced Toolkitting and customize the games to their liking.

It can be a 'new' game that is being put forward by Critical Role, which has almost unprecedented name recognition with the most recent generation of gamers. That coupled with the recent Foot-In-Mouth disease that Hasbro seems to suffer from, can go a long way for it to get a foot hold. While you are right that it is likely that the older games might be just as good or even better, they are also "old" or unknown to a vast percentage of the current gaming population.

You'll forgive me for going on very fuzzy memory on the difference between editions, others will hopefully correct me where wrong. 3e Healing required you to track each injury that a character takes because it could only heal on a per injury basis... or perhaps the most recent one. I will try to dig out the older books and find more specifics later today.

Also I am a little less clear on 3rd edition and earlier, but Healing was it's own thing then and 4e folded it into Aid. There were restrictions on how Healing worked in the older editions too. 5e I think was moving things back to earlier systems. Don't have all the rules to compare for sure though.

While I am certain that there are other ways PRE attacks could be used, yes that is pretty much my experience. Mechanically PRE attacks are something that will give the initiator the chance of a small combat or RP benefit that is very short term. Making enemies hesitate for 1/2 phase to give you more time to manuver into position, perhaps making a few thugs surrender or run away. "It's Batman! Screw this... I didn't sign up for taking on the Bat!" Attempting to rally a group of NPCs to listen to you during chaos,, think about Superman or Captain America addressing a crowd to move away from a combat zone, or rally them to help the injured in a catastrophe situation. The final use I could see, at least for simulating comics, would be when Major Enemies show up and perhaps cause PCs to lose 1/2 phase action. "It's Dr. Doom! This is way out of our league!" But ultimately, I think that PRE attacks were designed for empowerment of PCs to help mechanically give them the BIG HERO Speech/Entrance moments you see so often. That being said, it is your table and if your players are open to trying something different then go for it.... just don't feel you are trapped with your initial idea once you get started. Even the best designed games were play-tested over and over and had many things change during the process. Find what feels fun and your whole table enjoys, and you'll be golden.

I remember Horror HERO book existing, but it is not one that I ever managed to pick up. I think I see what you are going with here, but I think we might be veering off into the more detailed world of Specific Genre Emulation and outside just straight PRE attacks as they are RAW. To clarify: Horror HERO could be many things and all of them will change how PCs interact with the world. Cthullu, Bram Stoker, Freddy or Jason films, The Mummy (any film version)... and if you are being liberal enough with definiations, even something like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Scooby-Doo. In all of these how the PCs interact with the world would be extremely different and you would need player buy-in even more than raw mechanics. In my experience it is a rare group of players that doesn't rankle, at least a little, at dice telling them what their character believe. Much like how using Bluff type skills on PCs when the players know the truth doesn't always go well. Can you tell us a little more about the Style of Horror game you are trying to go for? That might help with trying to figure out how to tailor the mechanics to try and support it? For example. Someone it trying to run a Cthullu type game and wants PRE attacks to be used to show how the unnatural horror and dread of magic and these alien creatures will break the minds of characters over time. Instead of trying to create a Sanity-Saving Throw roll off defense mechanic, perhaps as part of the game all characters get 100 points of Sanity Stat. Whenever a PRE attack happens, any amount of the roll over their PRE/EGO stats reduces Sanity and there is no fast means to recover it. You could even say that once they get to half levels they start to get new Complications/Disadvantages based around the things that have been affecting them, let the players pick the new ones or GM could assign something. (sure this is probably really close to just Call of Cthullu's system... but there is no reason that this cannot be grafted to HERO. Basically as part of the Genre for the Campaign, the characters have a 3rd 'health' track to add to Body and Stun and it just is how the game operates. You can then tailor things so that most "normal" Horrors have PRE attacks that should on average chip always at least 5-10 Sanity and work with your players to let them RP the effects of it. If more mechanical effects are needed then perhaps at lower levels of Sanity say.. 33 or less, it causes a long term Drain on the PRE/EGO stats for characters to show that not only are they running out of Sanity... but also their hold on reality is starting to break. Even just a few points reduction would have noticeable effect... I feel a little goes a long way on that. Going from 20 to 18 or something like that would be more than enough. -- All of that being said PRE attacks are very one sided by their nature, the danger of changing that element of the mechanic is it certainly will slow down gameplay which might be detrimental to the tension of the moment. A static defense system (probably with some form of ablative limitation would be the smoothest way to keep the game flowing. Each PRE attach chips away at the characters stoicism until they are down to just baseline PRE/EGO going forward. The only other thing I could think of is just to allow Mental Defense to help protect against PRE attacks.... but then you run the risk of needing HUGE dice pools of PRE attacks to get any effects at all. Finally, how common are the PRE attacks against players going to happen in the game? If it is just one or two per session then being at the mercy of what the DM rolls is not that different than getting hit with and NND or other exotic power type. However if they are much more common, then I would expect players will buy more PRE/EGO naturally to help protect themselves more... and also keep in mind that each successive PRE attack against a target gets less and less dice each time. That FIRST zombie that burst through the door really scares and shocks the players but the 2nd and 3rd following it? Well... they are still scary for sure, but the adrenaline is already pumping at that point and Fight/Flight responses already are in swing.... so they get less and less dice against the PCs.... but that crashed Ghoul leading them is a fresh horror.. so would get full attack when it shows up. (at least I think this is how the mechanics work still in 6e... can't recall fully off hand. Either way, in my experience PRE attacks were usually PCs vs NPCs/Enemies and often only done once at the start or end of encounters... not repeatedly)

The whole reason this started rolling around in my head was when I was teaching HERO to my gf for one of the solo games... and a skill check came up. As i was explaining it the whole thing just seemed very unintuitive and overly clunky with too many steps and inputs interrupting the flow of the events. Look at how HERO handles the skill process: - What is your character skill? 13- in this example - Step 1: How hard is the task attempted? GM decides and now has to tell the play to change their base roll anywhere from +/-5 or more. - Step 2: is the charcter taking extra time or rushing faster than normal? If so, please tell your player to add or subtract another number based on time chart. - Step 3: begin to add other bonus modifiers (character special knowledge, good equipment for the check, good conditions, etc) GM has to total it all up and tell them to add. - Step 4: begin to subtract all other bad modifiers: (see step 3 but things are going against you) - Step 5: Player assigns any relevant Skill Levels if they wish Even if you are going to do some of the math in your head that is still alot and it also means that the GM has to let the player behind the curtain for the logic of many of modifiers. While not a 'bad' thing... it can kill the tension of the moment and drain excitement from events. Instead I am trying something more simple. Player has skill roll of +2 (in current reworking) There are a few things going for them so GM says to add +2 can say why then just tell them that it is a Hard task (GM decides it is DC 12, does not have to tell the player... just giving them the general category is enough.) If there are things that would penalize the character... that just raises the difficultly level. They don't need to do extra math. "The lock would normally only be of Average difficulty for you.. but your lockpicks were confiscated, making this a Hard tasks now" ...obviously every GM has their own style, you don't have to use game mechanic terms, this is just for illustration purpose. The only thing that matters is the player understands that circumstances against htem are making it harder.... giving them a chance to rethink actions or search for ways to negate the issues. Hopefully this helps illustrate the goals better... I probably should not be posting when its way past bedtime.

I have run a few extended champions campaigns for groups and solo and found that PRE attacks use are very dependent on the player and concept. Supers vs Supers there is little use for PRE attacks, unless the character is specifically built to use them. Because as you said very few players I saw really took PRE up much past 20 or so. However my gfs solo character uses them often... especially when going up against groups of lesser enemies... usually to try and get a few to hesitate for 1/2 phase or to run. I tend to be a little more giving with the extra dice for situational mods... but she did also have the character buy extra PRE only for fear/intimidation so its on brand.

Exactly, while in its ultimate form it would be nice to overhaul HERO into a smoother interface from the ground up. I highly doubt that I am the person to undertake that task... let alone nearly solo. However I feel that the current mechanics of HERO are still very servicable...but are in dire need of a better user interface for the player (and GM at times) to allow focus on the play. HERO is a toolkit first and game second in many ways. Even video games that have VERY detailed information for abilities and statistics for the player to view do not have them on the main screens, they are usually in tooltips or you push a button while highlighting the ability to get the FULL details, otherwise it gives you just the most important bits for actual gameplay. Do we really need to have a 6 line stat block with powers, advantages, limitations, skill levels and the like for a sword. Or does the player just need to know. [ Sword: melee range, +1 to Hit, 1d6+1 K, STR Min 12 ] and ideally the adjusted damage would be given to them as well. Starting especially in 5e and 6e character sheets have become VERY long, often up to 2-3 pages in the published books. This is alot for a player to take in and translate on the fly. And most of it is irrelevent to them. I am trying to come up with a UI overhaul that can translate the Toolkit HERO gibberish into something more simple language that will allow players to focus on the important details only and PLAY. They can learn more of the behind the scenes elements over time. At this moment in time it is very much the Option 2. The character is created (for learning games probably by GM) or character sheet is taken from one of the published sources and then a smaller character sheet is created translating things over to make it easier for the player to find the things they need quickly. That being said originally I was looking at doing something like option 1... but i felt it makes conversion of 30+ years of products too involved. That being said.... LONG term I would like to make it so that it is easy to build in the system this way too... but that seems way more niche use... it is more important that the system to fast and simple to use and that any existing character can be converted to it with minimal efforts and a few notes.

Thank you all for your input so far! With work this week I have not had much time to really focus in on the project, but hoping to do some more over next few days. PRE discussions have been very interesting but I am not sure just how heavily I want to work that system. But it does help showcase the fact that PRE defenses are not really focused on too much in the rules at the moment. Personally I feel that this is because at the Champions level PRE Attacks are less designed to be used against other Supers, and more to help a single hero gain a temporary advantage against a group of thugs or VIPER agent types. Mostly by using the modifiers for Powers, Actions, Skills and the like. If anything THAT is what could use more attention to clarify and give better guidelines for use.

At this time I am not looking to remove CHA from skills. What I am doing is working on something that can be viewed as stand alone but also simple to convert existing hero products over to. At this time it would probably have to be something like the formula above or something along the lines of Skill Value = +1 per full 5 points in CHA over 10. I am not sure about PRE vs Mental Powers. However I do feel that the EGO/INT system from 3rd Edition works much better than what we have in the current versions of HERO. So perhaps something like that. Still reviewing the options there.

There is alot here but I'll try and sum up. Yes it is just "add up" system at the core in place of Roll Or Under of Base HERO. However that really is just all it is... a math flip at base. The core skill for Base HERO is 11- either as a default skill that is purchased at 3 points for that value like KS or it is what you get for a 9+CHA/5 with a stat of 10. Therefore it is the base value I am working everything around. The math for rolling 11 or less on 3d6 is the same as the math for rolling 10 or higher on 3d6... so this is our point of flipping the math. As far as 'experienced' skills.. you are right there is not term in book. That is my place holder for any skill that is over 11-, either by having higher stats that give you better role or having spent points on a skill to raise it in the Base HERO system. Therefore skill values are calculated off olds sheets as follows. 8- roll is 3 under 11- so it becomes a -3 skill roll in the adding system. 11- roll is equal to 11- so it becomes a +0 skill roll in the adding system. 13- roll is 2 higher than 11- so it becomes a +2 skill roll in the adding system. (also this would be Randall's skill roll in Base HERO) Does this help clarify? Agreed... i do not like them either. But i should at least try to make them fuctional if I can. Optional rule anyway.

Awesome! Thank you. Honestly I had completely forgotten that rule was even a thing. I don't remember it from 4th and if it was in 5th my group never used it. Yes, i will need to adjust for it. Although a quick look says that it is only for combat To-Hit rolls and nothing else in the system. (6E2 118) and even that is only an optional rule. Which personally I feel is not really useful in HERO. The odds of them coming up are so rare anyway. However, it might be something as simple as adding half again the DCV value as the 'critical' threshold. DCV base 6+10 = 16. 16/2 = 8 so for the character standard DCV is 16 with critical DCV 24. ...although combat manuvers and skill levels would make the math a pain. Sticking a pin to think over later. Near as I can tell RAW uses PRE which is mostly what I've done in the past, but I agree that in many ways EGO feels like it is more appropriate. However I could also see argument made for this being down to Genre and Table Style. I will give it more thought and see if any other insights come up. This does sound interesting, but the secondary goal of this overhaul is something that can be utilized for people with the minimal revisions needed to any existing published material. Thus I am trying to keep things as close to current functions as I can while essentially giving it a new coat of paint and UI change for player ease of use. Although filing the ideas away for further exploration in any case!

Hello Everyone! I just wanted to update everyone on things. I have put the VERY rough draft together for the baseline of the ideas I have worked up from discussions here and elsewhere. If you could please go to this new post: Take a look over things and offer any thoughts or feedback there. Thank you all!

HERO: Skill Mechanics Rework v0.1 Goal: The goal of this document is rework and streamline the dice mechanics for HERO System in order to simplify and increase ease of use for new players. It is not looking to recreate systems from scratch but to use existing systems in slightly different ways to facilitate faster and smoother gameplay. However later versions my offer alternate system methods, but for how looking for something that can get into game usable states quickly. Thank you for @Doc Democracy for the inspiration for many of these ideas from the examples character sheets posted and to everyone on the boards in earlier discussions on this! Core Mechanic: In order to keep in current gaming trends and to streamline how dice rolls work in play, changing from Official HERO rolling to an additive system needing to equal or exceed a target number. New Roll: 3d6 + Relevant Skill + Modifiers VS Target DC. (Base DC = 10) 11 or less on 3d6 is the same as 10 or higher on 3d6 Combat Rolls (old): 11 + OCV – DCV = Number or Less on 3d6 - alternate this could be viewed as 11 + OCV – 3d6 = Target DCV hit. Combat Rolls (new): 3d6 + OCV + Skill Levels + Modifiers = Target DCV for this system DCV is calculated as normal but added to a base of 10 example: DCV 5 character would be DCV 15 Skill Checks: Perform skill checks by the core mechanic (3d6 + Skill Level + Mods vs Target DC) Difficulty Class: Base DC 10 modified by difficulty. Character needs to equal or exceed the target DC in order to succeeded. DC By Task Difficulty: (these numbers need review, may need to modify by genre?) Routine: 5-7 Easy: 8-9 Average: 10-11 Hard: 12-13 Extreme: 14-15 Folly: 16+ Skill Conversion from normal HERO: for sake of conversion, the skill information will be converted from standard HERO System rules. Purchase as normal, then convert over to the new format after. Skill rolls in the new system start at +0 for the equivalent of an 11- roll (BASE), each point under BASE roll is the equal to -1 on the skill roll and each point over BASE is equal to +1 skill roll. Examples: Everyman Skills: Standard HERO skill is 8- roll, new system is -3 skill roll Standard Skills: Standard HERO skill is 11- roll, new system is +0 skill roll Experienced Skills: Standard HERO skill is 13- roll, the new system is +2 skill roll SKILL MODIFIERS: As in standard HERO there will be circumstances that will modify the skill DC or Skill Roll itself. Bonuses: as per HERO – extra time, positive circumstances, etc – this are bonus that adds to your existing Skill Roll. GM will inform the player of the bonus at time of roll. Penalties: as per HERO – rushed attempt, lack of proper tools, poor circumstances, etc – these penalties will increase the Target DC by their amount. Example: Randall the Rogue is trying to pick the lock on the back door of shop during the middle of the night. Unfortunately his lock picks were confiscated earlier by the guards and so he is having to wing it. Randall's base Lockpicking (security systems) skill is +2 (13- in classic HERO) and he is taking taking extra time so the GM gives him +1 bonus. The lock is decent but nothing special, Average quality, so the GM decides the base DC is only 11, however due to the lack of lockpicks there would be a -2 penalty causing the final Target DC to be 13. Therefore Randall's player will be rolling 3d6 + Skill of 2 + Extra time bonus of 1 for a total of 3d6+3 and will need to get a total of 13 or higher. Obviously all of this shakes out to being the same as classic hero expect that the players only have to worry about any bonuses they are given not the total of the penalties and will only have to roll and add. Looking this over I note that perhaps I need to rework the standard Skill Modifier chart to just make it all additive as well for ease of use. I am open to feedback there. UPCOMING ADDITIONS: Characteristics Contests: based on how STR rolls use BODY totals for Grabbing in combat. Working on expansion of this for dealing with things that would normally be handled by CHA skill rolls. Currently looking over things like Forcing Open doors, Initiative Ties, Reflex checks when two characters are both trying to grab same items. Presence Attacks: This is another stand alone system that is not utilized elsewhere. Not I am looking to see if there is a way to give this more weight... or at least way to use other stats the same way. Perhaps (for older editions) a way to make Comeliness Attacks in a similar vein. Open to ideas here. Also trying to decide if PRE and EGO are defense or if that is too easy for Egoists to ignore PRE attacks. --One last note: I would like to update this in the future without spamming new topics. Is there a way to edit the starting post just later on, or can I only add new posts down the chain?