Mike W

Re: Point Efficiency vs. Concept True, but he was significantly above average. Far beyond a typical high school student in Amazing Fantasy 15. The current webbing formula is very sophisticated, much more so than the original.

Re: Weird Build Question I fail to see where anything is being limited. It's just how Multiform works. I don't think this is any different than if you had an EB or Claws or anything else.

Re: based on ego Does the character know whether a power is an EB or a KA in ANY circumstance? As a general rule, yes. If for no other reason than they can gauge it by the effect it has. If you're dealing with pyrokinetics then the most logical explanation is that the KA is hotter than the EB. But to say that the character can specifically say that "this power is a killing attack and that one is an energy blast", not they can't. What they CAN tell is "either attack is hot enough to kill(or almost kill) a normal human but this one doesn't do nearly as much permanent damage as the other one does(especially where superhumans are concerned". At this point, I want to fall back on the metarules of the system for a few things: 1. If there are two equally valid ways to build a particular ability, you must use the more expensive build. 2. When building powers, choose the Power and Modifiers which best represent the special effect of the ability the character has. These are both in the book(in 5th edition it's page 348) and should be. The first helps to cut down on power gaming. The second, which IMO is more imporant, focuses on creating the character according to the concept, not the numbers. The idea is to build the character according to how they would do things, not according to what would be most cost effective. This isn't to say that cost is irrelevant, but it's a secondary consideration. You build the power according to the special effect and if the expense is too great, you find ways to tweak it without changing the build to something that doesn't fit the concept. It is an erroneous assumption that every power that costs the same amount of points will be equally useful/powerful. That's just the way it is. Sometimes, you get more bang for your buck than others. A 6D6 EGO Blast and a 12D6 EB are not the same and are not equal, though they cost the same. Similarly, an attack which overload's someone's nervous system is not the same thing as reaching into their mind and overloading their pain receptors. They do completely different things and should look that way mechanically. An EB is an EB, but an EB is not an EGO attack. Also, I think you're getting too hung up on the points. I'm no more penalizing someone for their concept by making them take a more logical, but less efficient build than I would be rewarding them by allowing them to use a MP or a skill enhancer. Such an approach does not necessarily lead to archetypal characters - that is determined by the creativity of the player. But it DOES ensure that the character will have a unified theme that holds together - even if those parts are drawn from several different archetypes. Superman is more than just a "flying brick" he's an alien with a physiology that converts solar energy - so the heat vision DOES fit his concept, because it can be seen as Superman releasing some of the solar energy he has absorbed in a focused beam. In short, the concept can be as broad as you care to make it, but of necessity, the broader you make the concept, the less likely you are to reach "elite" status at any aspect, because your abilities/points are spread out more than someone who focuses on doing only a handful of things particularly well. Even if you're trying to build similar abilities, because not every character does things exactly the same way, they aren't going to be equally effective at everything, especially not when they first attempt something. Just because you are an All Star basketball player doesn't mean you can suddenly go play baseball and be equally good(ask Michael Jordan). You've got the raw talent(maybe) but you're going to have to start at a lower level and work your way up because there are significant differences. Even switching positions could change your effectiveness. Not many point guards can play center and not many centers can play point guard. They are still basketball players, but they tend to emphasize much different aspects of the game. This doesn't mean you can't have a rare talent who can guard both positions(like Ben Wallace) or an even rarer one who can play both positions on the offensive end(Magic Johnson) but those players are extremely rare and generally have to put in a tremendous amount of work to be consistently effective at such disparate tasks. So forcing a character to start off a new power with a weaker build than their other powers and/or weaker than other characters who attempt something similar is perfectly fair. It doesn't mean the character can't get better at it later, but at the same time, they can't just wake up one day and be as good as everyone else at the power either.

Re: based on ego At some point, as GM you have to impose your vision of the character, to enforce campaign limits and play balance if nothing else. And I'm not "penalizing" anyone. I just ask them to build it how their character would actually do it. If it's not as efficient as how another character would do it, oh well. I also think that at a certain point, special effect DOES define how a power works. An EB is an EB. But frying someone's brain and messing with their nervous system are NOT the same thing.

Re: based on ego B & C - I never said a guy couldn't change his character archetype when he's building his initial character, but once he's decided that "this is the kind of character I want to play" I'm going to be very careful about where he can expand his powers and how quickly he gets good at them. Logical progression is important. And I also don't want him stepping on the toes of other characters. I don't directly apply "extra point costs" to anything, but I build the power as the character would do it, and if that's more expensive than how someone else might do it, I'm fine with that. I don't feel a need to min/max the character to that degree. Points don't always equal power, directly anyway. They're SUPPOSED to, but we've all seen examples where it doesn't work that way. Go check out one of the abusive power threads. Also, I think it reflects "real life" a bit in that while there is often more than one way to do things, not all of them are as efficient. You can start a fire by rubbing two sticks together with a bow and arrow or you can start a fire with matches and lighter fluid. The second is much easier. I think the real argument here isn't "what I will allow", I'll let people try almost anything that makes sense, BUT I'm not concerned with building it the most point efficient way. I'm concerned with building it based on how the character would do it. But with the way the system is set up, some builds will be more efficient than others. It's the nature of the beast. It's the nature of reality. And I'm fine with that. I'm more concerned with the character making sense and developing in a way that works for the player and is logical at the same time. The math is incidental. Still, I DO enforce campaign limits, and part of that is balancing abilitites. Just because one character has 60 STR doesn't mean everyone can have 60 STR. Balancing characters also involves balancing them against each other. Charcters with higher DEX generally have lower STR to balance them out so there aren't uber characters capable of doing everything. Sure, I COULD build a 350 point character that hardly needs anyone else, but what's the point of playing in a group then? So as a GM I won't allow such a character. And again, not everyone is going to be as good at doing the same thing. So you're probably going to have to at least start off with a less effective build when you step outside the box. Over time, you can get better, but it's not what you're best at, so you don't do it quite as efficiently until you learn more about it/get more practice at it. And that principle is built into the system in all sorts of ways from Skill Enhancers to Power Frameworks.

Re: INT Sword, Follower or Focus Call me crazy, but why not BOTH. Put focus on the stuff that is always there(the basic HKA for example) then build the granted powers as a Follower. Or maybe even a Contact, depending on the relationship. Sure, you have to buy everything UBO, but you could also buy them with a limit "only for person holding the sword". I'd call it -1/4 or -1/2, depending on the setting(it's easier to carry around a sword all the time in a fantasy setting) and on how easy the sword can be taken away/used by others. On the other hand, you have another option which is to take a Bound disad(similar to a priest who must pray for his spells). If you tick off the sword, the powers don't work.

Re: based on ego Hugh, I don't feel I'm "imposing my vision" on a character, just because I won't let him do something that is a bit beyond his character's actual ability. I don't view forcing him to buy something as an EB instead of an RKA any differently than telling him that "no I don't think your character could be that strong" and not letting him have 60 STR when he says he's building a "Luke Cage" type of character. As for the pain whip example, aside from the fact that we probably wouldn't build either one quite like that(at least I wouldn't), I tend to view it similarly to a character with NCM trying to buy 25 STR. Sure, you technically CAN have the character do that(and if you want to stretch the character that way, I'm ok with it) but you have to recognize that it's simply harder for him to do. Pioneering or going "outside the box" is always more difficult. In short, I view the cost of the power as not just representing the power/usefulness of an ability(because, quite frankly, we all know that there are mathematical ways around that) but also the difficulty of what is being attempted(much like Mind Control is modified by how difficult the control/memory change etc you are attempting is). Overall, these things tend to balance out because while the gadgeteer may, in this instance, have to pay more to do the same thing, most of the time he isn't(because of the natural Focus limits he puts on everything) and if you add a Juryrig skill, he'll be able to change his powers in combat, even without a VPP. How many characters can do that? In the end, I find that it all balances out.

Re: based on ego A better example would be one that is tied to the initial reason for the thread: the "pain whip". Two characters want a "pain whip" the first is a gadgeteer, who is building an actual whip, the second is a mentalist who basically is conjuring a variation on Psylocke's "psychic knife" idea. The gadgeteer is going to attack the other person's nervous system and attempt to overload it, because he doesn't want an "all or nothing" concept, he's left with buying an AVLD Energy Blast. Since it obviously won't run off of the character's END(though other types of characters, it might), he has to either buy charges or buy it 0 END. For the sake of direct comparison, we'll buy it 0 END. Pain Whip: 6D6 EB AVLD vs. Power(or Mental,you could argue either) DEF. OAF(whip). 0 END Active Points: 90 Real Cost 45 Mentalist is basically creating a unique "focus" that, for the sake of comparison, is actually tangible and can be "blocked" and such. We will distinguish however that her focus is unique and cannot be used by others, but these are -0 limits. It is still OAF because it can be taken from her in combat(basic disarm maneuver or any grab/hold that can force her hand open) Her pain whip is really an EGO Blast with no range. Pain Whip: 6D6 EGO blast. 0 END(she's good at it). No Range. OAF Active Points: 90 Real Cost: 36 The second power is 20% cheaper but has the exact same effect as the first. However I have no problem with this because menatlists with EGO blasts are very common. Most mentalists have them. It's something the character would easily learn how to do, even though he is doing it a bit differently. Overloading the brain's pain receptors is stock in trade for a mentalist. On the other hand, a gadgeteer building the first power is a bit less common. Partly because the archetype is a bit broader but also because they are trying to build something that works against anyone, regardless of anatomy, which could vary radically even among those who were/are originally human/mutant(e.g. Sandman, Colossus, the Thing, Hyrdo Man in water form). The mentalist, by definition, is targeting something that all humans, mutants, etc have - a basically human mind. So it's easier for him because he is always trying to "get ahold" of the same thing.

Re: based on ego A little, but not much. For something that small, it doesn't make much difference. But the vibration guy is gonna have to talk if he wants to start big fires - or be able to use the power on an airborne target. Because the SFX is so different, his character just isn't going to be as good at it. I'd probably recommend he take fewer dice than the pyrokinetic, but he's also going to end up being required to take some extra modifiers to limit how well he can do it. Those may make the power less useful. If he wants to do the exact same thing as the pyrokinetic(i.e. - throw a major fireball) he's probably going to have to pay more for it, at least a little. Here's an example: Player A(pyrokinetic) want to buy a fireball attack. This is exactly what the character is supposed to do. It's his bread and butter, so he can do this pretty much any way he wants. Let's say: 3D6 RKA, 1 Hex AOE. Player B(vibration specialist) wants to buy a fireball attack defined as "vibrating the molecules so fast that they combust". Ok, theoretically this is possible. But whereas the pyrokinetic is naturally capable of generating the heat necessary in a specific area, it's pretty basic for him. Not so true of the vibration specialist. It's a bit outside his area of expertise and requires a finer degree of control over his power. When he first buys it at least(I might be willing to talk about changing things after he uses it a lot), the power is probably going to have take some kind of extra effort(Concentration, Increased END, whatever). Also, it's VERY hard to rub things together fast enough to create a hot fire, so he probably has to buy it as EB. So he might have to buy it like this: 9D6 1 hex AOE, X2 END

Re: based on ego Yes, if they are the same power. But if you're doing things much differently, with different mechanics, then it may have a similar effect, but it is NOT the same power.

Re: Point Efficiency vs. Concept Sounds good to me. Point efficiency is fine, as long as it doesn't become the defining part of a character(one way or the other). I'm a big believer in building the character as you envision them. Heck, I often make my players do the initial write up of their powers/abilities without refering to any book terms like "Energy Blast" or "Mind Scan", or whatever.

Re: based on ego The Increased END may or may not be a serious limitation shortly after "waking up" depending on a number of factors including what the character's REC is and whether the power runs off of personal END or an END reserve. I could for example, build a power armor character with a large END reserve then buy one of his rare guns at X2 END because it chews up a lot of END converting energy and it makes perfect sense. Since it runs of an END reserve, it's irrelevant whether I "just woke up" or not, because the END reserve isn't affected by me getting knocked to negative STUN. +50END only to hold your breath? Why bother when long term END rules would already allow him to hold his breath almost indefinitely. But that isn't the same as being able to breathe underwater. If I knock the wind out of someone who is trying to use "can hold my breath forever" as a substitute for breathing underwater, he has to surface or drown. Aquaman doesn't have that problem. Just like Aquaman can talk underwater but someone who bought END "only to hold my breath" can't talk without resurfacing. It's NOT the same thing. Mental Illusions vs. Images should not be based on how many people it affects. You can have either one affect one person or more than one, depending on how you build it. Instead, it should depend on how you're going about it. Are you bending the light(Images) or are you reaching into their brain and telling it that it sees something that's not there? The second one is harder(generally) so it should cost more, even though it's going to do much the same thing. Also, I'm not trying to encourage archetypes so much as discourage people assembling a random collection of powers. I want things that go together rationally. Just because you reason from special effects doesn't mean that you have to have an archetype. Few characters I play(or players I play with) really have that. But we build things based on how the character would do it, not on what is most efficient. Sure they all have a few archetypal things. But it's impossible not to. If you give someone 75 STR and high DEF, you've build a brick. BUT that doesn't mean the characters can't stretch themselves in ways that differentiate them from others with the same (very) general archetype. For example, in the last group, the team brick had an origin similar to the Molten Man from Marvel Comics, but his powers were completely different. For one, he was a brick. For another, he could "sense" metal. He could also bond himself to metal and "walk up walls" if they were strong enough to hold him, which necessitated him buying a limited version of Flight. And Clinging. Ever see an 800 pound metallic guy hang upside down from a steel girder like he was Spiderman? Of course, he also had Density Increase and Life Support, which are traditional brick powers, but they made sense. You don't have to build "the same old character" just because you're building from special effect.

Re: based on ego For the first part, yes, the costs are constant regardless of what your other stats are, but the alternative would be a sliding scale that would complicate matters immensely. I think you have to settle for the flat rate and just realize that sometimes it's going to be more limiting than others. Just like with Increaded END costs. Some characters have so much END to burn that it really doesn't affect them very much. Others, it is a serious hinderance because they burn up a lot. As for your "breathing underwater example", I would point out two things: First, Grond is, IIRC, somewhat amphibious himself, so the rationalization for him and Aquaman would be the same. And regardless, if you're going to give him water breathing, then you're assuming that he DOES in fact have some sort of gills or natural aquatic leanings, so it DOES fit with his SFX. So your example doesn't hold. Second, the power you chose has a flat cost and is already expressly defined. So basically, you either have it or you don't. There is no other way to build it that changes the cost, except by applying limits or advantages. So your example is loaded. Instead, build, say, an illusion power that has one idea - make you appear as someone else(set image), sort of like an image inducer in the X-men comics. But build it once for a menatlist, once for a mage, and once for a gadgeteer. If you do that, you might not build the power the same way. I'd say you use Mental Illusions for the mentalist, Images for the techie, and the mage could go either way. The point cost isn't likely to come out the same. While I would agree that utility should be a general guideline to power cost(though we can all think of things in the book we think are over or under priced), I don't think it should be the ONLY factor. Some things are just harder for other characters and that will be reflected in more than just Limits, simply because different people, for whatever reason, approach things differently, and not all methods are equally efficient.

Re: based on ego That's new then. It used to be that BOECV powers basically counted as full mental powers, which would have included mind class. And it would still depend on the character as to whether it was more efficient or not. An AVLD uses normal OCV/DCV to hit. For some that might make it easier(generally speaking) to hit than using ECV all the time. I think the SFX is important to the power in that it explains how it works. Some things are just more efficient or more useful than others. I also look at it that the SFX infleunces how closely related the power is to other powers. The more you have to stretch the SFX, the more expensive it should be because you're pushing the limit of what you can do. For example, say I want to be able to start fires. Lots of characters could be able to do this. For some, it would be easy. A pyrokinetic could do it naturally. It's what they do. A mage might have more limits, but really, we have no trouble seeing this since mages and fireball spells go hand in hand. But what about a matter manipulator? Or a someone who controls vibrations? Theoretically, especially if we'll apply a little comic book science, they should be able to start fires by rubbing atoms together, but we're stretching the power,so it should be more difficult for them to do it.

Re: Original This looks like a good place to post one of my favorite characters. Titan (Alan Stevens) Origin: Alan Stevens was a mousy bookworm who pretty much kept to himself. One day he was out minding his own business, buying a newspaper, when Grond inexplicably(to Alan's thinking anyway) showed up and started trashing the nearby bank and pretty much everything else in sight. A wannabe supermage with far too much power and far too little training(whose name Alan never did catch) showed up to try to stop Grond. In attempting to cast a STR draining spell on Grond, the mage inexplicably reversed it and made Grond even stronger. The mage then compounded the mistake in draining the excess STR off of Grond he realized he had no where to "put it", so he put it in Alan! Somehow or other, the change became permanent. (Don't ask Alan, he doesn't want to know). Appearance: Alan is still the same mousy looking guy he always was. 5'5", 130 pounds soaking wet. He needs glasses but wears contacts when "superheroing"(not to mention a badly fitting toga, the Titans were Greek after all). Personality: Alan is the strongest man in the world now, and deathly afraid of that fact. He pulls EVERY punch by at least half, even against Dr. Destroyer. He doesn't really WANT to be a hero, but he doesn't believe he can lead a normal life. He's caught on with a veteran laden team in the hope that they can cure him(or at least that they'll be competent enough that he can hide in the back and not really have to hit people very much). Deep down, Alan has the selflessness and courage to make a very good hero...if someone could help him find it.

Re: Superfluous Powers

Re: Super (fluous) Powers I'd say both.

Re: based on ego Partly based on special effect. A pain whip might qualify here. Also, AVLD only vs. mental defense would ignore mind class wouldn't it? Based on ECV makes it a full mental power, so mind class WOULD be important.

Re: based on ego I suppose there might be occasions where it makes sense(albeit rarely) but to my knowledge, there is nothing in the rules that allows this. It's stirctly your house rule. Which is fine if it works for you.

Re: based on ego Based on ECV has several potential benefits depending on the situation, many of which have already been said: 1. Outside of mentalists/psychics and mages, high EGO tends to be rare so you often have a much easier time hitting people. 2. Also, there are no mental "block" or "dodge" maneuvers. Your ECV is your ECV, period. There is really virtually nothing you can actively do to defend against an EGO based attack. Unlike a physical attack where you can dodge, duck behind cover, or do whatever, once you are under mental attack the only things you can actively do to "defend" against the attack are to pound the attacker into the ground fast or leave the field all together except that... 3. There are no range penalties and your range is line of sight, regardless of how many points you have in it. Also, you CAN attack someone you can't "see" with your eyes if you have the appropriate mental powers. 4. Ironically, your best "defense" against mental powers is sometimes a LIMITATION like Beserk or Enraged that radically alters your mental makeup.

Re: Superfluous Powers The Spiderman example is pretty weak. He can't hover without something to hang onto, so it isn't really hovering. Heck, he doesn't even need a power to that, really. You could just find a gymnast, hand him a rope and tell him to tie it off of a streetlight and hang onto it. And sorry, but gliders can't hover. Hovering means you aren't moving at all. If a glider stops moving, it falls. It has to move according to wind currents if nothing else,you might be able to maintain a tight circle, but you can't just stop and hover over the same couple feet of turf for an hour, like you could with flight.

Re: Can you drain - Life support? My rules for draining LS: You CAN drain LS if one of the following situations applies: 1. The LS is technologically based(e.g. Iron Man's armor). 2. The LS is the result of a magic spell(e.g. a spell that lets you breathe water). You MIGHT be able to drain LS in the following circumstances: The LS is physiological in nature but not part of the character's normal physiology(e.g. a shapeshifter that grows gills so he can breathe underwater) You CAN'T drain LS if the following is true: The LS is part of the creature's normal physiology. You can't drain water breathing from an Atlantean any more than you can drain air breathing from a human. House Rule: Draining LS is treated similarly to draining DEF, you only get half the effect BEFORE Power DEF is applied.

Re: Serial Villany Never done that in any game. Though I have occasionally "switched" who was in a suit of power armor or something like that.

Re: Contact help I think the roll is fine, especially if we are talking about a low technology setting where you might have to send a messenger. I would suggest buying up the relationship roll however, unless there is a definite reason not to. I also agree with the suggestion that the character should simply by the perk "member of lower nobility" which would come with some of the things mentioned already built in. A couple points of wealth might not be a bad idea either.

Re: Superfluous Powers Not really. You can't hover with either Gliding or Swinging either. And your turn modes work differently, especially for Gliding. And you theoretically COULD gain altitude with Gliding if you had the proper air currents. Admittedly, we could probably cover them with other things, but they are so common that I don't mind them being "pre-built" so to speak. Especially since Darkness would be tough to build with Change Environment. I mean, how much a negative do you need to guarantee that someone can't see at all? -15(at least)? That's REALLY expensive.