Tywyll

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The active cost limit of a campaign should apply to the pool's size: that is, the maximum allowable power in a pool should be what the pool can contain. Just like Multipower: the pool of points you can activate at any given time should be equal to the active point cap of the campaign.

Yeah, that's pretty much my understanding and way of thinking.

HD implies that real cost of pool plus control is "active points" and therefore should fall under any AP cap, which to me at least is clearly wrong (it's real cost vs active points).

I mean, I never do in real life...but this is a game, so...

Why wouldn't you? Sleeping is different from getting knocked unconscious. At least I would consider it different. As such you would be getting your recoveries all night and not spending END. I can't see any reason to think you wouldn't be at full.

If you establish a Campaign AP Limit, how do you apply that to a VPP? My understanding is that is should only usually apply to the slots and the Reserve of your AP. 

But HD calls the real cost of the Pool + Control Cost as the 'Active Points'. So does that mean that the Pool + Control if they were above the AP limit of a campaign would be forbidden? Or should you only look at the Pool? Certainly the examples in Champions 6e seem to indicate that the Pool is the element that must abide by the campaign's AP limit, not the total. 

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

"Pointless Champions" is an excellent article by our long-absent forum colleague, Theron Bretz, in Digital Hero #3, referring to 5E Hero System. A substantial excerpt from that article was hosted for free on an earlier incarnation of the Hero Games website, and you can still view it here.

 

Two or three other articles from that issue of DH could also be useful to Tywyll.

I did read that article a long time ago, it was what got the idea stuck in my head. I will have to dig up that issue to read the other articles! Thank you for pointing me at them!

23 hours ago, Echo3Niner said:

I actually have a thread on a campaign I've been running, that is "Cosmic powered" - 1500 point characters: 

 

The high-level stuff starts about halfway down 1st page.

 

There is a 6th Ed version of The Hulk, in my game called 'Zerk - who is  2000 points.

 

We haven't had much issue running this level of game, even though they have crazy high (~40d6) attacks - BUT, and this is the point; I have mature, adult players, who have been roleplaying for the better part of 30+ years, and are really in it for the story - so they're not trying to min/max the system - just make good, well rounded characters, that fit their ideals for the characters they want to play.

 

If you read though it, hope it helps.

I'm reading your stuff now! Thanks for sharing. I would love to see some of the PCs! It's funny, I was thinking of using The Empress as one of the big bads as well!

13 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

My campaign is technically high powered at this point and I handle it by focusing more on story and character interaction/dialogue. I also tend to provide problems/conflicts that can't easily be solved by brute force alone.

This is definitely something I am hoping to do, with some issues like saving a town from a Tornado or massive flood/tsunami. 

Though, of course, that means I need rules for those things...

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Perhaps you're missing DCV, defensive Combat Maneuvers, CSL, Movement, and other ways someone can avoid getting hit. It's not all about tanking damage.

Sure, sure, but 'dodge tanks' aren't super viable in rpgs since a single good roll can take them out, especially if the campaigne average for attacks is 16-20d6.

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Also, your numbers are missing a few issues. Rampart's Strength is 100, so his Haymaker will do 24d6, not 28. A Haymaker is also only useful against targets that are immobile or immobilized, otherwise it's easy to avoid.

He has a power that is +4d6 HA, only with Haymaker, hence the 28d6. And all you have to do is pay attention to the spd chart...once your opponent has gone you are fairly safe to throw one unless they have a super high spd.

11 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Defender's armor can generate a 12 rPD/12 rED Force Wall in addition to its other Defenses. He also has a 50 pt. VPP for other systems he can install in his armor, including more DEF if he anticipates needing it.

IF...

I didn't include the forcewall because that prohibits his attacks. 

21 minutes ago, Spence said:

Late to the party, but I didn't see it mentioned.

 

5th Ed Galactic Champions discusses high powered characters, both building them and GMing high powered campaigns. 

While I have not really read all the way though it myself, it may be of use.

They do, but honestly they never talk hard numbers really. And while the character attack values are typically super high, their defenses don't seem to match. 

Like Defender 3K can shoot 20d6 eb but only has 30rdef/36ndef. 

Thalya can fire off a 12d6 ap EB but only has 32rdef/44ndef

Rampart's main attack seems to be a Haymaker, which will do 28d6 vs his 50 def, meaning 48 on average gets through.

Basically most people are stunned by their own attacks. ;( Maybe I am missing something though?

38 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

There's various solutions.  As was pointed out, dropping the STUN multiplier to 1/2 d6 is huge.  OK, heroes need good rDef...but they don't also need insane additional Def to bounce the STUN.  Another option...when Ron was publishing the early editions of Champions Now, we exchanged posts about the killing dice issues.  He dropped killing dice.  Instead, he defined an Advantage called Piercing...+1/2 advantage.  The BODY of the attack only goes against resistant defenses.  You might consider that too high for Champions...that's cool, but perhaps +1/4 would work better.  Or something else.  The massively swingy nature of 5E's killing damage just leads to too many undesirable effects if left untouched.

No arguement here! That's my concern, especially at high AP attacks. It is one of my concerns and mitigating it is definitely something I want to do. Damage Reduction is one options. Opal's idea of stun only pinging on the Body that gets through defenses is another idea. 

I had noticed Champions Now's solution and I was wondering how well that works. It does seem like the stun values would be super high. Like even 10d6 attack vs your typical rDef (say 12-15) would end up with 20 stun. And it would just get worse the higher you go, wouldn't it? I'll admit I haven't played Champions Now so I don't know how well that variant works. 

2 hours ago, Opal said:

Nope, the idea is that a KA that doesn't do BOD just bounced off with no effect, and that one that doesn't bounce simply does STN in proportion to the BOD that gets through.  Non-resistant defense just isn't relevant to killing damage in the variant.   

Ah, got it! That makes sense. 

2 hours ago, Opal said:

 

For me, the STN lotto nicely captures some classic bits, like the character who is fatally wounded but not unconscious, who still gets to make a dying declaration or set off the self destruct device or whatever, or the character who's shot and drops, but it turns out the bullet 'creased their skull' or some such and though out of the fight, they recover later.  But those bits shouldn't apply when machine-gun bullets are rattling off the ironman or superman type character like raindrops.   

I will admit, I do like the possibility of being dying while still conscious. Though in all fairness, I can't remember when it happened last. 

2 hours ago, Opal said:

 

To put it another way, the point of a Killing Attack is to kill, and if it sometimes rolls a high STNx and KOs someone you were trying to kill, well, that's it not working so well for you, but not that bad for them, really, since KO'd isn't as bad as dead, and it could have killed them.  When the target had enough resistant defense that the KA can't kill them, nor even do 1 BOD to them on a max roll, though, the STNx becomes a bug, not a feature.  ie if a KA can't even potentially kill a target, it shouldn't do anything to that target. 

I like the way you think! 

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I get what you're saying, but the point (pardon the pun) of Killing attacks is to kill, to do Body damage, that someone has to buy extra Resistant Defense to counter. The intent is to balance them against Normal Damage attacks, which do more Stun but less Body on average, without the added expense of rDEF.

 

If the Stun damage for Killing Attacks using the 1/2d6  bothers you, I suggest making an additional +1 Stun Multiplier the default for all KA in your game. Your chance of doing more Stun goes up, but not to a degree that's too unbalancing.

No, I get that. I just think after 5 editions with it working the one way, it feels super weird to suddenly work so differently I guess. Like, ka lotto has always been problematic but when you limit stun to x3 it just feels like there is almost no way for Stun to get through most defenses. 

I think d3+1 will be reasonable without the danger of the x5 spike. 

36 minutes ago, Opal said:

 

I mean, that's an amusing example because 12 BOD 36 STUN is a 3x stun multiplier, and the defenses are 10r 20n, for a total of 30.  So, standard rules, you'd take 2 BOD (12-10) and 6 STN (36-30); but, under the variant I was talking about, where the STN mod is applied only to the BOD that gets through, you'd take 2 BOD (12-10) and 6 STN (2 * 3).   So, wow.     

 

Let's say the stun multiplier die was a 6, for x5.  Now the example would be 10-2 = 2 BOD and (12 * 5 = 60)  60 - 30 = 30 STN,

vs 10-2 = 2 BOD and 2*5 = 10 STN.

But that would still get stopped by most normal defense right? I mean, if you changed it to 10 r def and 20 n def, that 20 still blocks the 10 stun. Even if you only had 10ndef/10rdef (like making 10 rd resistant) that still stops all that stn.

Is that the goal?

36 minutes ago, Opal said:

 

Hm.   I find a high STNx, especially the one based on hit locations, very reasonable for FH or DI or any lower-power game, since it makes it pretty easy to toss around KAs, but KO characters instead of kill them, at least some of the time, which can be good drama.  The consolation of being dropped by a high STNx when you have no rDEF, is that you weren't shot three more times and killed outright. 

 

1d3+1 isn't really reduced, it's an average 3, which is higher than 1d6-1 (average 2.33) and can still give a x4 

 

 

That's a good point. I guess I just don't like the high spike of x5 honestly, that's the problem. 

8 hours ago, assault said:

 

I'd pass on that on that, personally, both as GM and player.

 

In fact any character I would be likely to play would be likely to fight any "heroes" who tried to intervene in such a situation. And not with a code versus killing.

That's what Session 0's are for, to discuss what sort of characters would figure into such a campaign, whether pvp will be allowed, etc. I'm happy for players to create anti-involvement characters, but I would want them to have some level of wiggle-room, rather than absolutely no under any circumstances. And not every player has to play in every game, and that's okay.

11 hours ago, Opal said:

Yes, against targets with reasonably high resistant defenses, killing attacks like bullets just bounce off, which is about right for a high-power champions game, anyway, if you're 'invulnerable' you should be invulnerable.

 

No, the point of KAs is that normal defenses don't stop them.  

So if you had 10rdef and an extra 20 n def, and were shot for 12body and 36 stun by a killing attack, you would take 2 Body (as normal) and then..6 Stun? That would be ignored because of the 20 n def, right? I mean, I know that normal defenses don't stop a ka but if you have resistant def, you add it to your normal def for stun damage. 

11 hours ago, Opal said:

 

I agree that KA dice were often a little high and that your idea is a workable one.

Thank you!

11 hours ago, Opal said:

 

If the whole penetrating/flawed thing is too complicated, another similar way to eliminate the stun lotto that still potentially lets some STN through, is to use the stun multiplier for the BOD that gets through, and when no BOD is inflicted to use a fixed STN multiplier of 2. 

 

You can also vary things by using the STNx from the hit location table for normals (because, perhaps ironically, the STN lotto is actually on the realistic side), and then a fixed or restricted STN mod for supers, like 1/2d6 or d4-1 

I was thinking of using a slightly reduced lotto, 1d3: 1=x2, 2=x3, 3=x4. 

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Or you could just utilize the Stun Multiplier mechanic from Sixth Edition, i.e. instead of rolling 1d6-1, you roll 1/2d6. 1 or 2 = 1x Body, 3 or 4 = 2x Body, 5 or 6 = 3x Body. Makes the "Stun lottery" much more manageable.

I did use that in a 6e game, but I felt like it made stun almost negligible. It worked all right for FH, but I don't know I would want to use it in Champions.

9 hours ago, Mr. R said:

 

 

I will so totally use these in my next game where I GM.  CIIAW but for weapons you use a Reduced Penetration limitation, correct?

I'm not using Reduced Pen, as that still leaves the Thing 'stunnable' by a handgun. I'm just reducing the high end of the stun lotto and the base damage dice of weapons. It does mean that some stun could get through, though I am considering looking at the absolute defense rule that exists in...some book? I don't remember which one. 

12 hours ago, Lucius said:

No Sell: (Total: 40 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Desolidification (40 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), 12 Charges which Recover every 1 Week (-3/4), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Instant (-1/2) (Real Cost: 😎
Real Cost: 8

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and his palindromedary

So this is like 12 perfect dodges? Is that what the NCC represents (it requires someone to attack them)?

12 hours ago, schir1964 said:

If anyone has a basic design they want modified and can describe to me what it is they want I can take a crack at it. I've some tools that make it a bit easier to alter formatting and layout.

 

I thought Hero Designer allowed you to create customized templates and exports. Never used it myself but I was considering it recently.

It does, but it takes a level of xml knowledge which I lack. I mean, I love the program, but I have to rely on things other people build. I could probably figure it out given enough study, but with job, wife, kid and a group that doesn't play HERO...it's not at the top of my to do list.

On 10/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Derek Hiemforth said:

For anyone familiar with AD&D 2nd Edition, The Complete Fighter's Handbook, by Aaron Allston, had the concept of "fighting styles." It pointed out that melee combat could be boiled down to one of four approaches at any given time:

1. A one-handed weapon in one hand and a non-weapon (typically a shield) in the other, which it called "Weapon and Shield" style.
2. A one-handed weapon in each hand, which it called "Two Weapon" style.
3. A one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, which it called "One-Handed" style.
4. A two-handed weapon, which it called "Two-Handed" style.

Years ago, I brought this concept to Fantasy HERO using Martial Arts and Combat Skill Levels.  I named the four styles Bear Style (weapon and shield), Bull Style (two weapon), Bee Style (one-handed), and Butterfly style (two-handed).  Bear style got its name from the straightforward style of a weapon and shield attack, Bull style from the fact that two swords resembled two horns of a bull, Bee style from the unpredictable darting movement of a bee (similar to the evasive approach of one-handed fighting), and Butterfly style from light patterns on the flashing blade of a duelist with a two-handed sword seeming to dance like a butterfly in flight.

 

You could buy levels in a style, and they applied whenever fighting in that fashion, no matter the weapon or whether you had any of the martial maneuvers for the style.  If you were really skilled in a style, you could buy Bear Style, Bull Style, Bee Style, or Butterfly Style as a martial art, and each had maneuvers that reinforced the "feel" of that fighting style. For example, Bull Style had the highest-damage maneuvers, because the SFX included the idea that you were striking twice (even if not actually using Multiple Attack (or Sweep, as it was known then). Bee Style had maneuvers that were lighter on damage, but excellent for DCV, etc.

 

They were a fun addition.   

This is an absolutely awesome idea! If I ever get to run FH again, I am definitely nicking it!

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I also instituted an "instant death" house rule to make normal people more fragile, so high-powered heroes have to give more thought to recklessly throwing attacks around. Any person who takes more than their starting Body damage past Defenses, from a single attack, may die immediately from the shock. Hence a 10d6 attack will often kill a normal human with one hit. This is automatic for most innocent bystanders, but important NPCs, and PCs in my non-super games, can get a CON roll to avoid it. I don't use the rule for super PCs, though.

 

You should consider the social implications of your PCs being Justice League level. That will make them among the strongest, and highest-profile, superheroes in the world. They will carry a lot of responsibility to respond to major threats, so you'll want to build in time between crises for character interactions and other role-playing, and more low-key activities. But that high profile will also draw a lot of attention from the world, not all desirable. Think of the Avengers in Marvel's Civil War movie. Legal and political repercussions can be the logical outcome from some of their actions.

The instant death rule is a good one. I'm definitely up for that. 

As for the social implications, that's exactly what I'm interested in exploring. In a world where you are some of the most powerful beings out there, what do you do when wars break out, when politicians attempt to exert authority over you. When you can stop a tin pot dictator before they invade their neighbor or commit an atrocity, do you? That kind of thing. To misquote Cap, if you see something go south, do you sit and wait for someone to give you permission to get involved or do you let it happen? 

52 minutes ago, Opal said:

STN lotto's always a problem, if someone's tossing around a 6d KA, I suppose it's even bigger.  What I did was apply the multiplier only to the BOD that got through resistant defense, making bouncing bullets - and, at this level, anti-tank weapons and very small nukes - a lot more practical.  

 

Doesn't that pretty much make killing attacks not do any stun at all unless they are super high? Wouldn't normal def negate any of that Stun? I do like, in general, the idea but I'm trying to figure out how to use it in play.

I was thinking of reducing weapon damage so small weapons do 1d6k, medium do 2d6k, large/military weapons do 3d6, and really big weapons (like anti0tank weapons) do 4d6. I think the scales in standard HERO are too high, and vehicles and buildings possess too much def compared to comics and films. 

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I believe Hero starts to break down above 400 pts /75AP because of how the world and powers are built

This is one of my concerns. Especially with killing attacks and the Stun lotto.

A few things I want to do is to make the world and normals more fragile. So materials and mundanes and non-super vehicles and such will all take x2 damage. This way even a 60 strength super could still take out a normal tank (the kind of stuff you see in comics and cartoons but doesn't really work in HERO because vehicles and material defenses are so high). But I don't want heroes and villains to have to distort the mechanics any further. 

Do you think things break down at that point because official writers never put defenses very high?

5 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

but if you focus on story, character, role playing, and interaction rather than combat you should do okay.  Just keep in mind that players are a lot more clever and direct wit their powers than comic book superheroes are.  They'll do the stuff that makes sense and uses their powers consistently rather than what fits the story, so its going to be a bit difficult to give them consistent challenges.

 

That said, I agree with your assessment on high end builds in official publication, its like the writers hit a wall on defenses but are unlimited on attacks.  You would not find that the case with player-built characters using that many points.

Agreed! Players are sneaky and if they have looked at official builds, they tend to build their characters towards those levels rather than ignoring that they are a thing. 

This is the problem. You use HD to build a character because it is great and easy. But then you can't export a 'simplified' version. At least I have not seen an export format that does (sadly I have 0 idea on how to build my own). 

I've been toying with running a 'Justice League' style campaign for awhile, where the PCs are among the strongest Heroes in the setting. Thinking powers in the 75-100 AP range.

Oh, this would be in 5th edition.

Anyway, what sort of issues and pitfalls should I be aware of at high powered levels like that? A big part of the campaign will be more about "what do you do with that sort of power" rather than "stop the bank heist" play. It will definitly have a bit of an 'Authority' vibe (with governements being hesitant if not downright antagonistic to supers at that level of power).

One issue that seems to pop up in official character builds, often of high powered characters or npcs, is that when people are slinging 18-20d6 EBs around, most of them also cannot 'take' such an attack without being stunned. Like they might have 30 def and 20ish con, so an attack of equivalent power to their own will stun them just about everytime. Damage Reduction seems like a must have power (which I'm not that bothered with if that is the case, just want to make sure I'm reading it right). 

I was even toying with allowing players to build whatever the wanted with no point contraints (initially) though after the characters are turned in, I would make adjustments. I was considering breaking down certain aspects of builds (strength, spd, movement powers, ranged attacks, defenses, etc) and allow each player to pick one that only their character could have up to 100 points in and everyone else could at most take 75 points in (their secondary focus) and every other catagory would cap around 60. This would allow characters to shine no matter how many points they built their character with. This would allow 'Superman' to take 100 str and maybe 75 in defense, while you could still have 'Cyborg' with 60 str. Obviously extremely limited or edgecase power builds would still be considered (stuff with like 2 or more points of limitations) that could break the caps, albeit in rare circumstances. 

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Any suggestions or advice? Is this a terrible idea?

Did the BoT I ever have an HD pack option? I looked in the store but I only see it as pdf or print, while number 2 does have the HD pack.

Also, my HD is back from 2017 I think, I assume that the templates will still work with that version?

12 hours ago, Spence said:

 

I don't think anyone I personally know ever considered that as a "power up".   That is just a normal character whose powers are only accessible in Heroic ID.

Well, you sort of do now! I absolutely would do it that way for some builds. I mean, if we are talking two forms, I literally don't see the difference. 

12 hours ago, Spence said:

To me a "power up" is when the super being has abilities that increase in power in a defined "stepped" manner.

Yeah, I'm recommending two steps: Normal/regular power->More Poweful version (who's additional abilities are bought seperately behind OIHID

12 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Bruce Banner to Hulk is just normal non-super to super activation.

Then there is Ichigo's regular soul-reaper powers and Ichigo's powers when he activates Bankai.  

 

 

Yeah, that's the origin of the OIHID but HERO has come a long way (as have comics) and it's not necessary to just use it that way (like everything else in Hero). I can easily build Power Person who can, for whatever reason, upgrade to More Power Person. Maybe I had some limitations so I can only be More Power Person for X amount of time or after I'm injured or whatever, meditation, etc.  

It's soooo much cleaner than messing around with Aid constructs. But has the down side that it only works if there are only two forms. 

If you only had one other form, couldn't you just buy it as 'Only in Heroic ID' and default the powered up form as your heroic ID? That seems to me like a clearner way.

Goku's multiple forms though would definitely warrent Multiform. 

On 2/20/2021 at 10:11 AM, assault said:

It's not that big a deal if their gadgets are fairly narrowly defined. Sandman has a gas gun, Dr Mid-Nite has darkness. But Green Arrow has a bunch of different arrows, and so on.

 

I can kind of fix things, but none of my builds have yet impressed me.

 

Has anyone built a "skilled normal with gadgets" that works well for them?

 

What's wrong with the standard Multipower build? That seems pretty much tailor made for this situation. 

On 2/18/2021 at 1:14 AM, assault said:

I've been reviewing this stuff again.

 

First, other defenses could include Stealth, Invisibility and so on. If they don't know you are there, they can't/won't shoot you. Under some circumstances they might be able to fire blindly. For example, they might know you are there, but not exactly where you are. Obviously they would be at some kind of penalty for that - perhaps the effect would be reduced ("few bullets hit").

 

Another thing that has occurred to me is that the suggested base Active Point value (60) is fairly high. For example, if the thugs were using Ray Guns, built as a straight unmodified Blast, heroes could end up taking some pretty nasty attacks.

 

Do they need to factor in the Area Effect stuff into the cost? That would make things saner. Otherwise you would have thugs throwing around attacks bigger than those of many heroes!

 

Obviously the real answer is to tailor each Hazard on a case by case basis.

 

pawsplay's example seems to do this.

Yeah, I thought 60 AP seemed ultra high...especially if there are like 5-10 goons! Does that mean that one hero get's hit with 5-10 attacks, or can you only take damage from a Hazard once per phase?