Hyper-Man

DN is really the new power on the block.  Combined with the all time low popularity of HERO/Champions it just hasn't had the game play testing that other constructs have.  The pricing is spot on - it's a mirror of Damage Class in STR/HA, Blast or KA.  GM's who use Active Point Caps of some kind usually count points spent on DN against Caps on Defenses.  It's a good thing to include in a combination of different defenses but it's not so good by itself since if it's the only significant or resistant defense a character has then any attack that exceeds the DN by way of raw dice or has the counter (the 2 point Reduced Negation option on Blast, HA and KA) will do BODY damage.

Here's a cost comparison that might illustrate better:

60    Standard Brick Defenses: Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED) - END=0

60    New Brick Defenses: Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy) - END=0
    
60    Attack Powers: Multipower, 60-point reserve
6f    1)  Standard Blast: Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6
6f    2)  DN Busting Blast: Blast 10d6, Reduced Negation (5) (60 Active Points) - END=6

Say you have a character with 10 normal PD & ED with either the Standard or New defenses listed above. 

The Standard Blast will do an average of ~12 Stun vs Standard and ~11 Stun vs. the New.

The DN Busting Blast will only do 5 Stun vs the Standard but will do ~20 Stun vs. the New (with even a slightly above average roll doing BODY).

re: Speed of use

The fastest way to handle DN is to just just cross off that many dice from an attack (with a STR/HA or Blast at least). If a GM want to keep it hidden just have the player(s) roll their full attack and secretly remove that # of dice from the roll by alternating between high and low dice up the total.

HM

I agree with Nolgroth and Christopher.

The MiB not having a reliable way to reverse the effects supports the Mental Power vs. Transform argument.  Absolute Effect seems appropriate until they show us a movie where someone is immune and say why. Until then it just a guessing game to decide the best 'mechanic'.  Did they ever use them on aliens or was it always vs. human targets?

HM

Of those 3 options I prefer #3 but I still like this one better.

HM

I understood that he was using 4e from the original post.

The Advantage in question was only mentioned under the Desolidification Power description in 2 places.

from 4e page 63:

A character who wants to use a Power to affect the physical world while the character stays desolid must buy that Power (not Desolidification) with a Power Advantage Affects Physical World — which is a +2 Advantage. A Power bought with this Advantage can be used both when the character is solid and when he is desolid. Characters who can become desolid and still affect the physical world can be very powerful, and the GM should carefully review characters with such Powers before letting them into a campaign.

    • Desolidification Cost: 40 Character Points to ignore physical attacks and move through physical objects at normal movement rate. Desolidified characters must be vulnerable to a reasonably common group of Powers; they are also affected by Presence Attacks, Mental Powers, and attacks that are bought with the Power Advantage Affects Desolidified. Desolid characters can be immune to Mental Powers for +20 points. Characters that cannot move through solid objects should purchase Desolidification with a -1/2 Limitation; characters that leave a physical body behind them while desolid should buy Desolidification with a -1 Limitation. Any Power that can affect the physical world while the character is desolid must be bought with a +2 Power Advantage.

4e is silent on the subject of adding damage to Advantaged STR or HAs. Therefore the only option is to quote rules from more recent editions of the game.  I'm not trying make a value statement here.  It's worth noting that the 5e rules were originally written to address the omissions of 4e.  Then the 5e FAQ was created to address the follow up questions about those new changes. Then 5er was created by essentially folding all the FAQ answers into a new book.  6e is just a further progression of this same process.  So using a newer edition of the rules as a reference point on a question not addressed at all by 4e seems like the only logical option that I can see.

HM
 

Enforcing the END rules and any Active Point caps can go a long way towards limiting the potential game breaking qualities of such a combo.

The VPP I created for my rookie version of The Flash has a couple of slots that can be used in combination for this effect:

12) Superspeed Molecular Control v1:  Desolidification , Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; VPP as Variable Advantage - can be swapped out for Reduced Endurance 0 END; +1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor controls the power totally, Grantor must grant power one Recipient at a time. (60 Active Points); Perceivable (-1/4) Real Cost: 40

Notes: Allows him to carry 1 person or object while Deslosidified. - END 6

 

25) Molecular Control Strength:  Affects Physical World (Naked Advantage) (Maneuver Damage adds normally; +2) for up to 20 Active Points of STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; STR used still costs normal END; +1/4) (50 Active Points) Real Cost: 40

Notes: Usable with Superspeed Molecular Control v1 (Desolidification).  END 2

As built, he can only use 30m of Running when using the combo above.  This would make his maximum Move By damage = 7d6, not very game breaking considering everything else he can normally do.

HM

Well how would the real world Martial Arts that include weapons like Fencing and Kung Fu (using a Staff) work if you couldn't add the weapon damage together with STR and Maneuvers?

For more details see 6e2 page 99.

TOOLKITTING: ADDING DAMAGE

...

If a character uses a weapon he hasn’t paid Character Points for (as in most Heroic campaigns), the weapon’s damage is the base attack (the STR Minimum and Real Weapon rules, 6E2 199-200, also affect this). If a character pays points for a weapon, other appropriate Adding Damage rules apply.

 

HM

You must buy it on the STR.

 

Expect table variation on buying it on the Martial Arts By RAW, I don't believe you must.

In 6e, STR and Maneuver bonuses only get prorated when combined with an Advantaged HA if the Advantage directly affects damage.

HM

I am pretty sure the Advantage just needs to be applied to STR.  I know that is how it works in 5e and 6e.

HM

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Technically, both HA (HTH Attack) and typical damage based Martial Maneuvers add to STR damage.  Weapon based HA builds obscure this somewhat due to STR minimums but otherwise everything is additive.

What edition of the HERO rules are you currently using?

HM

Attack Roll Required FTW! At first brush, I was somewhat leery, but it makes sense. No sure about No Range, being as photos can be taken at long distances with the right zoom lens. And to pick knits, wouldn't you need some variation of Usable by Other for hard copy photos and/or Transmit for digital ones? Figure if we are going to go through all this trouble, we may as well really get granular.

The No Range Limitation only applies to the Clairsentience perception point (which normally has Range and is what gives the power its otherwise 'Indirect' qualities by default).  Different Lenses would just allow for different modifiers like Telescopic to be applied.  I think the Focus Limitation covers the UBO in this case. Hard copies and other analysis tools could be statted up by actually modeling Printers and Monitors that are Linked to the Camera build.

HM

While I agree that a build isn't really necessary*, I don't think Eiditic Memory or Images are the way to model this. The former is not that precise and Images is not an Enhanced Sense.

from 6e1 page 447:

Eidetic Memory: +5 to INT Rolls (10 Active Points); Only To Recall Memorized/Perceived Information (-1). Total cost: 5 points.

*I couldn't help myself.

6 Camera: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight Group) (40 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Precognition/Retrocognition Only (-1), Limited Power 2-D Snapshot Images Only (-1), Fixed Perception Point (Camera Lens; -1), No Range (-1/2), One Sense Only (Sight; -1/4), Attack Roll Required (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (Battery; -0)

[Notes: Spoon!] - END=[1 cc]

**I didn't bother to build the camera flash since that is a relatively standard build by comparison.

Camera 6e.hdc
 

HM

Yeah. I noticed that inconsisteny in my Flash build (rate of +DC vs +D6) I'll edit at some point

HM

Thanks will be helpful.

The book description can be confusing.  The way I remember it is to figure the total of the Advantages that modify damage (don't count Reduced END for example) and add 1 and multiply by 5 to get the rate that STR adds 1 Damage Class.  So in the case of the last book example of a 8d6 HA with AP and Penetrating (+3/4) I convert that to 1.75 and multiply by 5 to get 8.75 as the amount of STR it takes to add +1d6 of extra damage to the advantaged HA (it would take 35 STR to add +4d6).

Damage affecting Advantages that total +1, +1/2 and +1/4 are much easier breakpoints to remember as they mean that extra STR adds damage at 1/2, 2/3 and 4/5 the normal rate respectively. 

HM

Thanks. Food for thought. Really have to think about the damage. At first the idea of 15d6 per kick was like, whoa.

 

Do you have the reference for those prorating rules?

From 6e2 page 100:

Adding Damage To Attacks With Advantages

Adding damage becomes a little more complicated if the attack has Advantages that directly affect how the victim takes damage. (See 6E2 98 for a suggested list of these Advantages.) First, calculate the Damage Classes in the attack, using the rules on 6E2 96. The Damage Class Table on 6E2 97, make this an easy task in most cases, but you may have to do some quick calculating for heavily-Advantaged attacks and other unusual situations. (If possible, do this in advance so you don’t slow down the game.)

 

Second, add damage according to the rules below. You can use the accompanying Damage Class Quick-Reference Table to quickly determine how much damage a character does with an Advantaged Normal Damage or Killing Damage attack. Add up the total Advantages, then find the appropriate column. Go down the column until you locate the attack’s dice of damage. Then count one step down the column for each +1 DC, and that tells you the final damage of the Advantaged attack plus added DCs.

 

 

COMBAT SKILL LEVELS, MANEUVERS, AND MOVEMENT

Martial Maneuvers, Haymakers, Combat Skill Levels, and velocity add damage at their usual rate — for example +4 DCs for a Haymaker, +1 DC for 2 CSLs, or velocity/6 in DCs. However, since the Advantages affect how you determine the Damage Classes in the attack, these methods have less impact than they would on an un-Advantaged attack.

 

This rule also applies in Heroic campaigns to damage added when a character’s STR exceeds the STR Minimum of a weapon that has Advantages that affect damage.

 

Examples: Chan Hseng wields a knife (HKA ½d6, Armor Piercing). He uses his Martial Strike (+2 DCs) to increase the damage done by the knife. An HKA ½d6 attack is normally two Damage Classes, so adding +2 DCs would make it a 1d6+1 attack. But this one is AP, so Chan consults the Damage Classes Quick-Reference Table and discovers that adding +2 DCs to an HKA ½d6 with a +¼ Advantage makes it an HKA 1d6.

 

Smashtacular has the Advantage Double Knockback (+½) on his 40 STR. He decides he’s going to Haymaker his punch (Strike). Haymaker adds +4 DCs. With 40 STR he does 8d6 damage, which is 8 DCs, so if it weren’t Advantaged he’d do a 12d6 Haymaker. But he has to account for the +½ Advantage, so he consults the Damage Classes Quick-Reference Table. He finds 8d6 in the +½ column and counts four steps down for adding +4 DCs. That tells him he does 10½d6 damage with his Haymakered punch. Rogash the Swift, who can move 20m, does a Move Through with his spear (HKA 2d6, Armor Piercing). A Move Through adds velocity/6 in DCs, so he can add +3 Damage Classes due to movement. Furthermore, the spear has a STR Min 10 and he’s STR 30, so he can add another +1 DC from STR (remember, his STR is halved for these purposes when performing a Move Through with a weapon). Looking at the Damage Class Quick-Reference Table’s +¼ column, he finds that he does HKA 3d6 — the entry in the table four steps down from 2d6.

 

STRENGTH

For purposes of the Adding Damage rules, when a character uses an Advantaged HA or Advantaged HKA, that attack is the base damage. STR adds damage at the rate of +1 DC per 5 STR used, following the rules above.

 

Example: Spirit Dragon (STR 20) knows the Fiery Phoenix Fist technique, which lets him surround his fist with mystic flame (and thus greatly increases the power of his punch). The Fiery Phoenix Fist is an HA +8d6, Armor Piercing, Penetrating. Those two Advantages are worth +¾ total, so when Spirit Dragon adds the +4 DCs from using his 20 STR with the HA, he does 10d6 damage.

 

HM

Sounds like some form of Multiple Personality Disorder with the two personalities.  The Supervillain one which is dominant and fully aware of the other but can only maintain control for so long (Accidental Change with set effect - change every X days).  The Superhero one which is only vaguely aware of the other and attempts to keep the Accidental Change at bay via meds.

HM

I have never read the M&M rules but I wonder if a distinct build is even necessary in HERO.

In HERO, when a character makes a successful Grab they can immediately Squeeze the target for STR damage.

Does M&M allow for this by default?

HM

Here is a 5e Teleportation build I posted several years ago that should be easy to convert to 4e rules.

Wormhole Stan

52 Does Whatever A Wormhole Can: Multipower, 105-point reserve, (105 Active Points); all slots Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Side Effects (-1/4)
5u 1) Basic Gate: Teleportation 10", Position Shift, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Usable By Other (+1/4), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (105 Active Points) 10
4u 2) Defensive Redirect Gate: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target, Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Full Range (+1) (105 Active Points); Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4), Visible (-1/4)
4u 3) You Can See What I See: Clairsentience (Sight, Hearing, Radio And Smell/Taste Groups), Targeting, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2) (105 Active Points); Sense Affected As More Than One Sense [very common Sense] (-1/2) 4
5u 4) Offensive Redirect Gate: Indirect (Same origin, any direction; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2) for up to 70 Active Points of Any Ranged Attack, Usable By Other (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (105 Active Points) 4
5u 5) Acme Gate: Stretching 7", Does Not Cross Intervening Space (+1/4), Usable By Other (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4) (105 Active Points) 5
5u 6) Watch Where You're Going!: Teleportation 8", Position Shift, x2 Increased Mass, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), Usable As Attack (+1) (104 Active Points) 5

re: The Gate Limitation
Was not an option in HDv3 but an additional (-1/2) Custom Limitation on slot 1) would only save "1" real point.

 

HM

When I built something similar for my rookie version of The Flash I noted it on the build as follows:

STR 20

Speedster Martial Arts
4)   Passing Strike   1/2 Phase,  +1 OCV,  +0 DCV,  4d6 +v/10; FMove

Speed Force VPP
22) Flurry of Superspeed Punches:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Autofire (5 shots; 6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Manuever Damage adds at 2/3 the normal rate (15 STR adds +2DC, Move By adds +1DC per 15m); +1/2), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; 2 END per Punch; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 40
Notes: Reduced Endurance on HA does not affect END cost of STR used. Total END cost is 4 per Punch. 

END 2

 

So when looking at your example:

Basically this:

Lightning Leg Kick:  HA +4d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Autofire (10 shots; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), All Shots Versus The Same Target (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With [punch] (-1/4) (shsould change this to Can only be used with Kick)

 

character STR 25

 

and is trained in martial arts

Kick:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 11d6 Strike

The 11d6 base Kick damage indicates that there are 2 Martial Damage Classes meaning that he gets a total of +6DC from performing at Kick.

The Autofire 10 (+1) on the HA means that according to the Damage Prorating rules STR and Maneuver Damage will add at 1/2 the normal rate (20 STR adds +2DC, Martial Kick adds +3DC) for a combined total 9d6 Autofre 10 Kick.  END for STR will be 2 per shot before considering the END cost of the HA itself.

HM

WDT40

HM

In addition to UBO this requires Constant and is often referred to as a Teleport Gate.

HM

Simple answer. Yes.

Otherwise how would HTH weapons built with HA work?

Complex answer. Yes, but there may be more to it.

If the HA(Hand to Hand Attack) has any Advantages that affect Damage (example: Armor Piercing) then the way STR gets stacked is affected.

HM

The problem with Drain DEX is that unless you get it all the way down to 0, it doesn't impact OCV, DCV, SPD... I'd go with Marcus' Change Environment.

Good catch.

Here is an ability I built for my rookie Flash that takes CV into account.

15) Superspeed Spin:  Drain DEX, OCV & DCV 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (DEX, OCV & DCV; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (58 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Linked (Running at Super Speed part 2; -1/4) Real Cost: 29

Notes: Effectively -2 DEX per hit, -1 OCV per 2 hits & -1 DCV per 3 hits. DCV is considered a Defensive Power vs. Adjustments so the effect of Drain is halved (6e1 pg141). Costs 10 END if 5 spin attempts are made. END 2

HM

Just to do what Azazel did in X-Men: First Class is just a couple of Advantages on his own Teleportation Power combined with a non-combat Megascale scale move straight up.  The defense was grabbing him like Beast did which did not allow him to teleport away separately.

But to Teleport an opponent without moving yourself too would require UAA and would not normally allow for non-combat ranges so getting the required altitude would not be cheap.

HM

I think the easiest way to build the effect would be to use a Drain vs. DEX.

From 6e1 page 44:

A character with DEX 0 loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Action requiring physical movement (including things like walking, aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase.

 

The result of getting a target to DEX 0 or lower* would be forcing the target to make 9- rolls that could only be increased by Overall Levels and perhaps taking extra time.

*Further Negative Characteristics values only lengthen the Drain recovery time.  The DEX roll would still be based on a DEX 0.

HM