Hyper-Man
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Posts posted by Hyper-Man
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I think I found my answer.
From 6e2 page 207:
Firearms
More technically known as “non-musclepowered ranged weapons,” these weapons use gunpowder or other means to fire a projectile or energy beam at the target.So my Reduced END addition for STR may not be needed. There is still some value applying it to the Naked Autofire though.
I'll still ask Mr. Long though.
HM
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Devil's advocate voice....
I don't believe there are any creatures presented as possible threats that have less than 2 SPD. I think the SPD 1/Phase 7 logic is based on the possibility of SPD being Drained down to that value.
But as usual, I could be totally wrong.
HM
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Champions in 3-D is a great book. The closest thing to it in 6e is probably The Book of the Empress.
HM
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The search feature is your friend.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&search_in=forums
HM
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I still may end up posting a Rules Forum question to Steve Long.
The dividing line might be the difference between a STR-Based attack and a non-STR-based attack that happens to have a STR Minimum.
HM
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You only pay END for your STR once per Phase, regardless of how many times/ways you used your Strength that phase (CC 15). So a weapon with STR Min (10) costs 2 END, regardless of what kind of weapon it is, or how many attacks you make with it. It doesn't matter if the weapon has (or gains) Autofire, or is used in a Multiple Attack, the END cost from STR is still only 2.
From Hero System 6e1 page 41:
STRENGTH (STR)Strength represents a character’s raw physical power: how much damage he does in HTH Combat; how much he can lift and carry, how far he can throw things; and so forth. STR has a Base Value of 10; each additional +1 point of STR costs 1 Character Point. Every +5 Character Points represents +1d6 damage and a doubling of the character’s lifting capacity.
Using STR costs END — 1 END per 10 points of STR used in most cases (as an optional rule, some Heroic campaigns charge 1 END per 5 STR used, due to the prevalence of armed combat in those genres). However, a character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in a single Phase. For example, suppose a character has STR 50. If he uses Casual STR (see 6E1 131) to break out of a Grab, then uses STR to punch an enemy for 10d6 damage in that same Phase, he only pays 5 END, even though he’s used his STR in two different ways that Phase. However, this rule does not apply to situations or game elements that allow a character to make two or more STR-based attacks in a Phase (such as an Autofire HA, or the Multiple Attack Combat Maneuver). In that case,the character has to pay END for his STR once for each attack.
From CC page 15:
STR AND ENDURANCESTR costs Endurance to use. A character only has to pay the END cost for his STR once per Phase, regardless of how many different ways he uses it in the Phase, as long as no more than one of those ways is a STR-based attack; he must still pay END for each STR-based attack separately.
Example: Ironclad (STR 60) uses his STR to break out of an Entangle, then uses it to punch a foe for 12d6 in the same Phase. This costs him 6 END total; even though he used his STR two different ways, only the punch was an attack. On the next Phase, he uses Multiple Attack to punch two foes for 12d6 each. This costs him 12 END, because both uses of STR are attacks.
HM
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Guns aren't typically built with Reduced END. Charges are used instead. The END costs are only derived from the STR Minimums.
I was already aware of the affects of the number of hands used. It still doesn't change the ultimate question though. Say a character is using 2 hands to fire a 1 handed pistol with normal STR Minimum of 8. The rules in 6e2 page state that using 2 hands reduces the STR Minimum by 3. The final result is a 5 STR Minimum. Applying Reduced Endurance 1/2 END would not affect the minimum 1 END in a Heroic level game. This still means that IF the END is paid 'per shot fired' when using Multiple Attack, THEN fairly high END costs can accumulate quickly.
HM
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Sure. Why not? The tricky part is just determining the value which is wholly dependent on how common 'cold iron' is in the campaign world.
HM
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The recent Champions forum thread HELP! Is this power/maneuver combo OP (over powered) started me thinking about a similar setup I had created for John Wick for 6e.
Specifically, I started thinking about the END costs in a Heroic level game where STR costs 1 END per 5 points of STR used. So a weapon that has a STR Minimum of 10 means at least 2 END per attack made with it. Now, if the question was involving swinging an HTH weapon like a sword or a staff that seems to make sense. Add in the rules for Multiple Attack (the 6e version of Sweep) and a character making multiple attacks per Phase can very quickly spend more END than their RECovery in less than a TURN. But what about when using Ranged weapons like guns where the STR Minimum doesn't do anything that actually affects damage but is primarily about 'controlling the weapon when fired'?
AFAIK, the use of Multiple Attack with a gun still means paying END for all attack attempts. So given a typical 9mm handgun with a 9-10 STR minimum means 2 END per shot fired. And what about Autofire as a Naked Advantage only with guns? Does that still require the 2 END per shot fired?
Anyway, to address those concerns I added the following two upgrades to the John Wick build linked to above:
4 Shooting Stances: Reduced Endurance (0 END; Naked Advantage; +1/2) for up to 17 Active Points of STR (8 Active Points); Limited Power - Only for firearm STR Minimums (-1)
[Notes: STR normally costs 1 END per 5 STR used in Heroic games. Examples include: C.A.R. System (Center Axis Relock), Weaver Stance and Isosceles Stance.] - END=0I also upgraded Reduced Endurance to 0 END on the following.
17 Quick Fire: Autofire (3 shots; Naked Advantage; +1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (30 Active Points); OIF (Any Semi-Automatic Weapon of Opportunity; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)
[Notes: Autofire imposes an additional +5 STR Minimum to any weapon used. This can be offset by using the Brace Maneuver.] - END=0Do these seem like overkill?
Comments welcome.
HM
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I don't think anyone should ever worry about the HERO Rules Police raiding their game because of reported RAW violations.
With that said I used to get into some quite heated discussions with a former regular here (Phil Flieshman. I'm probably spelling his name wrong). He not only advocated a very similar approach to yours (which is fine) but made the argument that his interpretation was RAW (not fine as it potentially confuses new players). I have absolutely no problems with house rules as long as they are acknowledged for what they are. HERO was designed for campaign level house rules. In fact, it actually needs them since each GM has to choose what level of detail he wants to use for his world.
My first experience with Champions was in the early 80's with 1e/2e rules and a GM who honestly didn't care that much about the math. He was great storyteller so it made up for it. He created several unintended consequences in his game by making a snap-ruling that characters didn't need to pay slot costs for Multipowers. That skewed the character builds from the other powergamer-minded players to such a degree that RAW builds were just not viable due to the inevitable power creep that occurred. Regardless, I still have fond memories of that 2 years of almost weekly gaming. I'm sure my cdo* rules-obsession stems from that early experience.
*cdo is like ocd except that the letters are in the correct order.
HM
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I'm partial to Action HERO myself.
It had just better not be the Last product ever produced by HERO Games or it would get compared to a certain movie of a similar name.
Maybe we should combine them into Modern Action HERO.
HM
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Thanks for sharing the article. I posted a link to it on G+ Tabletop Roleplaying Games.
Toolkit RPGs are tricky things, no doubt. Lots of people reach into the toolbox and cut themselves. Unless it's a very simple toolbox...
As for a JI-style all-in-one, that'd be nice. Give people a nice on-ramp and maybe more would give Hero a chance.
The following is what I posted as a response on the original rpggeek thread. I decided to not post it here immediately so everyone could focus on the original article.
I agree that a Justice, Inc./Espionage!/Danger International follow up NOT named Dark Champions (HERO System 5) Complete is really needed. Modern HERO would be my choice.
The Monster Hunter International Roleplaying Game almost fits as a modern version of Justice Inc. except that unlike Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete it only included the HERO System Sixth Edition Basic Rulebook plus a very specific setting with all the good and bad that comes along with that. The upside was a very nice quality hardcover color interior book. The downside was NPC's having abilities on that couldn't be created with just the rules included in the book (the full set of HERO System Sixth Edition, Volume 1: Character Creation and HERO System Sixth Edition, Volume 2: Combat & Adventuring or Champions Complete are needed).
HM
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Here is a nice article I found at https://rpggeek.com/thread/1651931/hidden-side-hero and https://fezflip.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-myth-of-hero.html
Monday, October 10, 2016 The myth of HeroExcitement was in the air, that thrilling anticipation of a fresh rpg. Friends around the table ready to pass through the door of imagination. They sit ready to make bigger than life characters, explore strange worlds, defeat evil, cross and double cross. The GM pitches his world idea and players instantly snap to coming up with character concepts. Someone asks casually, “what system are we using?” The GM pauses, and reaches into his backpack, with a slight grunt he pulls two massive tomes out. Blue and gold graphics start to bring dread into hearts of the players. That internal fear confirmed when the GM says, “Let's try Hero”, as he drops the the books causing a 3.8 tablequake. Instantly fear turns to horror, the joy of the game drains to be replaced by visions of calculus and 4 hour long combats. Another game is a victim of Herophobia.Hero's reputation as a monolithic impenetrable fortress of rules is well earned. The rule books are huge an imposing. The default setting, Champions, is potentially the most confusing variant of hero that you can run. The quick start rules in their Sidekick editions are good, but no book seems to provide an obvious signpost as to where to start. All of these choices are intentional for better or for worse. The giant rule books are a marketing point, including the famous rulebook can stop a bullet stunt. Champions deserves to be a flagship line because it highlights what hero does better than any other system, but getting that sweet super hero gold requires a lengthy time investment to make it work right. Hero is marketed and designed for Hero players first and foremost, and that has the side effect of keeping hero in the 'hardcore' rpg category during an age of light and story driven rpgs.Hero has a lot going for it. It has a wonderfully consistent set of rules that once you understand them scales through all kinds of power levels and campaign settings. Layers of complexity can be added and removed painlessly. When people think of hero they tend to think of the full buy in version. High character point super heroes with complicated powers and multi powers. But the true selling point, and the one that puts it in a class above other generic systems is the strength of it base system. The simple bones that build into the variety of beasts it can become. My friend Chris likes to say that Hero is his go to light game. While Hero isn't a light game by the standards of modern rpg design, I know what he means. It is easy enough to apply hero to most campaign concepts, with a minimum of tweaking. For those oddball one shots it is often just as easy to throw together a few Hero characters. In games with no power, or low powers the process of making a hero character offers a lot of control while being pretty painless. At low character point levels fights move extremely quickly, letting you run very action oriented games without a lot of combat downtime.Easy character generation, quick combats, but that doesn't sound like Hero. That isn't champions, but unfortunately Champions and Hero are mostly synonymous. So what hero needs is a quickstart that plays to those advantages. The allure of the quickstart is that you can hop right into a game quickly, but a hero quickstart would be generic, so suddenly there is a lot of work to build the world. So we need a stripped down quick start game with an easy to understand world tied into it. It turns out that before Hero came out the system published exactly what I described in 1984. It was called Justice inc. JI was a version of Champions with all the powers stripped out, and a really tight pulp hero game theme. All the rules needed to play, with a few little add ons for the sake of theme. A good set of resources for running pulp games. In many ways it was the perfect Hero supplement.As much as I hate the Fantasy flight new Star Wars model, it might be a good line for Hero games to take. Fantasy Flight with their Star Wars rpg republishes all the core rules with some minor modifications each time they put out a major sourcebook. While this is annoying for a game where the theme changes just a little bit, it is an awesome fit for a generic system that could have wildly different settings and themes. I think a hero curious person might be more likely to buy a small tight game like JI to get a feel, then if they enjoyed it, it would be easy enough to expand into the wider game. It of course doesn’t have to be JI, a cool post apocalyptic game, some unique take or licensed fantasy game. The easiest and quickest way to learn Hero is to play with those already converted to the cult of Hero. Currently there really is no good way for new players to easily get in.I recommend giving hero a shot. Especially if you are the kind of person who wants a game that is mechanically deeper than most. The mechanical depth is offset by its logical consistency. The math involved is very straight forward. Hero just isn't as inscrutable as people make it out to be, if you are capable of splatbook surfing 200 pathfinder books to make some crazy build you should be fine playing some good old 1980 rpg technology. Long live Hero.HM -
Is it based on Goku's Power Pole?
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He's a modern frickin' ninja. That's just based on being able to walk out the front door of the Red Circle after exterminating virtually all of the security. Stealth does not mean no open gun play.
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I built some extremely silly characters back in the Champions 1/2e 80's.
Macho Man - I can't even remember what powers he had other than a 60 PRE.
The Flying Scottsman - a Green Arrow-like weapon master who used various Golf Clubs to great effect.
Spider-Dude - I actually played this character in a Amalgam Teen Titans campaign. Had the STR, DEX and Danger Sense but no Web Shooters (was banking XP to buy later).
HM
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You might also want to look at even older HERO books like the 4e line of Dark Champions as well as the 1-3e Espionage! and Danger International stand-alone books. While the latter are clearly outdated they might have more relevant cold war material than the 5e Dark Champions book.
HM
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I strongly recommend reading this thread:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2511170HM
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Made some minor updates to the character.
Changes made to 1st post in this thread and Downloads section.
Added links to a custom STR lifting chart.
Added Reduced END for meeting STR minimums with handguns.
Added links to a custom hit location alternative.
Added Italian to AK and Languages (speculation based on previews of new movie).
HM
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double post
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6e2 is not valid with the use of champions complete.
Good luck proving that.
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Updated!
27 Acme Club v2: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (Added as a Pool-Only Private Modifier since HD does not even show it as an Unavailable Limitation that could be overridden.; -1/4); all slots OAF (-1)
3f 1) Smash!: HA +8d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)[Notes: STR and Maneuvers add damage normally.] - END=0
3f 2) Poke!: HA +6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)[Notes: STR and Maneuvers add damage at 2/3 the normal rate. 15 STR adds +2DC.] - END=0
3f 3) Spin!: HA +4d6+1 (Reduced Negation (1)), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; cost doubled due to Autofire; +1) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)[Notes: STR and Maneuvers add damage at 2/3 the normal rate. 15 STR adds +2DC. Any STR used Costs END per Autofire 'Shot' used.] - END=0
HM
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END cost for Multiple Attack with a gun with a STR Minimum
in HERO System 6th Edition Rules Questions
Posted
Hi Steve,
While researching some heroic level gun use abilities in this thread I ran into a question I am not sure about.
Does the END cost of meeting the STR Minimum for *non-musclepowered ranged weapons (guns) mean the character only pays END once per Phase when using them regardless of whether a Multiple Attack or Autofire is also being used with the gun?
*Wording used in 6e2 page 207
Same question worded a different way:
Does having a STR Minimum have a direct bearing on determining if using a weapon is considered a **STR-based attack?
**Wording used in 6e1 page 41
If the answer to both is NO, then is it safe to assume that firing a bow (a musclepowered ranged weapon) Does cost END per shot but does not get any additional Limitation for this?
Thanks!
HM