unclevlad

Well at first I was thinking you'd need it to sift through the signals, cuz they all look the same.  If you capture the phone's ID info in advance, you might get by without it.  I'd still say, put it in to monitor a call just because there's so many conflicting calls.  This isn't like a tap on a landline, it's more like following a conversation while inside a stadium full of cheering/jeering/talking fans.  I will grant, I prefer to take a narrower view, and to say, put the points in.  

OK so the tech approach.  Radio Perception with Discriminatory.  The tracker can call the phone, well in advance, to get the identifying characteristics.  Finding it initially might take a while.  Once it's found, you can pretty much keep the lock.  One thing here is, I suspect this would drain the phone power rather quickly, which would be noticeable, and the phone powering down would break the lock you have.  

And yes, this can be done......but.  "Find My Phone" apps work with the phone in standby, but IIRC, NOT quietly.  The phone will buzz, ring, or whatever, so the user's gonna be alerted.  Bypassing that becomes a hack...or says, OK, your tracker found/bought info to exploit security loopholes, so this tracking doesn't trigger alarms.  You can't stop the battery drain, and you can't stop the user, if he's looking, from seeing the activity on the phone.  But I can buy an advanced hacker finding an exploit.

To track, Radio Perception is the obvious basis. 

After that it's a matter of special effects.  The quasi-Mentalist approach would be Mind Scan, Mind Link, Mind Control, all affecting phones rather than minds.  The tech basis would be Radio Percept and Transmit, with Discriminatory (to find the right signal out of the sea of numbers) and Targeting (to track the signal to the phone).  The hack is basically no different from hacking a computer over the internet.  Note that probably the Radio Percept/Transmit might need Invis Power Effects to trick the phone to accept the credentials you need to get into the OS and actually do the hack, but if you think that's overthinking this...that's fine.  Remember:  the phone user will have a direct indication that he's receiving data.

I would think there's some source materials that gives some decent examples of hacking a computer.  This shouldn't be easy or quick.

    Active Points                            
         50       60       70       80       90      100      110     120
3    2.40    2.50    2.57    2.63    2.67    2.70    2.73    2.75
4    2.80    3.00    3.14    3.25    3.33    3.40    3.45    3.50
5    3.00    3.33    3.57    3.75    3.89    4.00    4.09    4.17
6                3.50    3.86    4.13    4.33    4.50    4.64    4.75
7                           4.00    4.38    4.67    4.90    5.09    5.25
8                                       4.50    4.89    5.20    5.45    5.67

Hope that comes out.  Top row is active points at full strength;  left column is # of charges in the clip.  The intersection shows the total number of full charge equivalents you get from the clip.

The more general math is gonna be similar to eepjr's, I think, but lessee.

P = active points in the power at full strength.  Then, after N shots (where N cannot exceed P/10), the total power released is 

N * P - 10  * (N * (N-1))/2  or N * P - 5*N*(N-1)

So the charges "lost" becomes (5*N*(N-1)) / P

And the overall value of this custom Charges limitation is based on the total number of full strength charge-equivalent uses per clip.  This is easy to spreadsheet.

The Side Effect approach works when the power isn't on charges.

My bad.  The OP has that this power is already limited to a 5 shot clip.  Missed that, it's a tad buried.   And maybe I was being sloppy and jumping ahead.

Then the declining aspect is pretty minor.  75 + 65 + 55 + 45 + 35 = 275 active in all 5 shots.  Given the flat 5 charges, the total active points in the 5 shots (where the full power shot has N active) is 

5N - 100 

So if N is ~ 50, you're getting 3 shots' worth.  If N is  ~ 100, you're getting 4 shots.  75 means 3 2/3 shots, call it 4 shots worth.

Sorry, but I go the other way altogether.  This is NOT a limitation where one size fits all.  If this is being applied to a 50 point Blast, then it's far more serious than if it's being applied to a 120 point Entangle.  

I'm saying treat this as Charges, in terms of how many times it can be used with any purpose.  Some assumptions have to be made there.  Is this an instant power or a constant power?  Effectiveness rolloff might be no big deal for a Force Field that lasts 5 minutes per use because that's likely the full combat, but a big deal for an instant power like Blast.  Also, is this a "I only need to do this once" power, or something needed regularly?   100 Active is quite a bit...is this a bit overpowered for the campaign, where maybe the 3rd and 4th shots are more on par?  Well, then, the rolloff is at the 5th or 6th shot.  Same comment applies if the defense is uncommon, or the power has an ongoing effect like Entangle, so that it may not be needed more than a couple times.

Hm.  Another way to say this might just be Side Effect:  Power Fades with Use.  Automatic.  Side effect is 10 point Drain...well, that's a 3d6 Drain, and that's 30 points.  So that's a Major Side Effect.  Automatic raises that to a -1.  If you want a one size fits all, this seems pretty decent.  I'll certainly grant mine's more complex.

Oh, and a side note, interpreting this as a Side Effect (Drain) defines how fast the power 'recharges' back...takes 2 turns per use.  

I'm inclined to go a completely different route.  The 4th shot is at -30 Active...which strongly suggests it's largely a waste of time.  It's gonna bounce off defenses.  If these are standard charges, I'd say 

1 charge:  -2

2 charges:  -1 1/2 or -1 3/4, depending on average Active Points involved.  If it's, say, 50?  The 2nd shot's at 80%.   At 65+, the second shot's still fairly effective.

3 charges:  similar, leaning to -1 1/2.

4+:  -1 1/4, or even - 1 1/2 if the initial Active Points are low-ish.

It may also depend on the Power.  AVAD and Flash might remain decently effective even at -30 points.  So I'm looking at it as, how fast does the effectiveness fall off?  And once it's Basically Useless, it's like you're out of charges anyway.

IF the players are familiar with it.

And IF they realize that running away is not only acceptable, but downright wise.  Call in Juan Rico!!!

Then you HAVE to examine the cost and see if this is reasonable.  No, you can't just say, I blew your character out of the water with my DM power to build whatever I want.  DEAL WITH IT.  Me?  I'd probably walk.

How do you envision this encounter developing?  What's the situation that brings the PCs into contact/conflict with the 'stealer?  Do they have a chance to say No, we're going elsewhere...or at least, to get some info to understand what they may be getting into?  

Otherwise, it feels too likely to be an execution, and that is simply not fair.

It'd be worse to change the order around.  

Can argue that any 1/2 DCV penalty is actually a bad idea, in that it penalizes the "more skilled."  Someone with a 10 DCV takes a -5;  some brick with a 5, is only taking a -2.  This is poor rules construction.  

Could be worse.  Most things in 5 and 6 are going to be penalties, I think, so halving after them actually means the penalties are mitigated somewhat. 

For the most part this is the most common approach in all systems I've known, as long as the sources are separate.  The norm is "apply all modifiers."

How about a limitation on the "resurrection" aspect of the Regen.  Only that part.

a)  Slow...1 Body per hour.

b)  Side effect:  1d6 REC Drain.  Delayed Return Rate:  5 points per day or week.

Cant' start recovering consciousness until the Body restores...by which point the REC is 0, and stays until the Drain goes away.

36 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

As someone once said a long time ago on the old Red October BBS, "Silly wabbit, points are for players." Don't worry about the point cost for this; in fact, I don't think you even need a power-based write up at all. A purely descriptive one will do.

 

After all, since there is no treatment/cure for this, I'd say there's no point in going through the effort to work up all the Hero System mechanics that will be involved. If a genestealer hits with this attack it is, as you say, "game over" for that PC, and you might as well just tell the player to hand over the character sheet right then and there. What happens thereafter is purely narrative and not really subject to further game play, unless you want the player to roleplay the withdrawal from the society, the finding of a mate, and the raising of his or her hybrid offspring. But that's just asking the player to play (what has become) an NPC at that point, right?

The only reason to stat it out is to recognize its relative power.  At least roughly.  A point you bring up...IS this something that will ever target a PC?  The attack impact is so overwhelming that you don't want to.  This works way better as the hook...friend of a friend suddenly goes off, becoming a loner, withdrawing, major personality shift, all that sorta stuff.  PCs' job is to investigate, then eradicate.  The attack here won't come into play because the 'stealer is gonna be RUNNING!  It'll be trying to kill the PCs, and probably shouldn't even think about adding to its brood.  Takes too long.  Goal is to get away, with some remnant of its existing brood if possible, but if not, they're replaceable.  Somewhere else.  With less heat.  Everything posted here says, 'stealers are seriously risk-averse and selfish.  Alignment:  Chaotic Evil Cowardly.

And from the sound of it, this is the intent even in WH40K.  It's not really intended that the PCs might become a victim.

That sequence works nicely for me, massey.  Plays up the prime aspect...the horrific nature of this beastie.  

As a thought in this approach, toss in a straightforward Drain, targeting Ego, PRE, or both.  He can't fight back.  After the poor vic's been hosed 6 ways to Sunday, NOW you can throw in a relatively small, cumulative Mind Control and build it to sick levels.  The impact here would be the Mind Control on its own wouldn't be strong enough to do much against anyone who wasn't brain-drained.

This is now very nicely cinematic....BUT.  If there is to be an effective difference between this all taking several turns, and everything just happening all at once more or less (a few phases rather than turns)...there's got to be a way that this wears off, or can be reversed, at least until the whole sequence is complete.  Which really is OK.  I don't know the source material, but it sounds like it takes the vic and remains...discreetly, generally quietly.  Fine;  this gives regular opportunity to reinforce both the transform and the mind control.  The vic won't fight as long as the reinforcement's regular enough...buy Delayed Recovery (5/day) or something and you're good...and say that after a couple weeks the process has become permanent.  Sure feels like this is consistent with the critter's WH40K presentation.  It should be feasible with no major rules mangling, and feels internally consistent.

Cool.

We don't know the power level...and translating between systems makes this doubly hard.  He did say, this was something to face up against high-level characters, so it's not a 300 point monster.  

And, yes there is a point...to see, oh gee, this really is frightening.  There are occasional examples of glass cannons...monsters whose Risk is extremely high relative to their defenses.  In old D&D...the leprechaun.  Polymorph any object...for a 1 HD critter.  HUH?  And, IIRC, exceptional magic resistance but almost no physical.  Of course, your sword's now a long feather.  While it's not a physical Threat...as a challenge, it's quite a bit higher than one would anticipate.  Another, the cockatrice...that stoning attack.  Another lesson was, "It won't work very often" does not counterbalance "and...you're dead"  when it does work.

The point of all this is to say...recognize that the Transform is super incredibly powerful.  Honor that by not trying to cheese out the build.  If it is a 300 point monstrosity, it's a 300 point monstrosity...even if you can build it on 50. It's all too easy to lie to ourselves as players and GMs...but as a player, hopefully the GM's there to audit things.  The GM doesn't have that, so IMO has to be much more stringently compliant.  One aspect I'm so strongly against your slow, ongoing Transform is, you're taking a cheese approach while also hand-waving away quite a few problems, as I mentioned...and kind of patting yourself on the back for pulling it off.  Hey, ok, if you have to hand wave on one point, that can be ok...but so many aspects?  No.  Don't do that.  That's too much like the path the GM took that I'd mentioned, where he'd make something that legitimately cost 600 points, but ignore this, fudge that...and admire his own cleverness for squeezing 600 points of combat powers onto a 350 point villain. 

BTW, grail, sorry if I'm coming across as too critical/strident.  Bad experience with things like this...a GM who said an RKA Autofire Based on ECV was allowed to do Body on its own because it was a killing attack.  And used advantages that made limitations utterly meaningless *all* the time.  

You're right that this is VERY much like a werewolf transformation.  (Not necessarily a vampire one...most of the time, that transformation starts with the vampire killing the victim, so the transform takes place on an object...the corpse.)  But figure...what, really, is the difference in fantasy between a troll and a werewolf?  Trolls are a major PITA to kill because they just KEEP COMING BACK!!!!  ARGH.  Werewolves take special weapons to hit, so lots of defenses too.  Probably lower damage output.  What's more feared by PCs?  The werewolf...because of the transformation risk.  So, why cheap it out?  

Those are all plot device aspects.  The keys are things like, what can you do to stop or reverse this?  How long do you have?  What steps to take?  BROADLY, what might prevent this?  Werewolf in D&D, the infection takes place (or not, if the save's made) immediately.  You're cursed.  There's specific conditions for countering it in the first hour, the first few days, and then later.  None of these are limitations;  IMO, the fact that the trigger's a full moon is also not worth a cost break on the Transform.

I figured you were the GM and these were high-level opponents.

The point that the victim's OK with this...that's a massive Mind Control.  Come on, this is a Cthulhu-esque critter assaulting you.  REVULSION goes to "oh you're my BFF!!!"  That sounds like 50 points of Mind Control *effect* right there.  Yeah, 15d6.

grail's notion is...sorry to be blunt, man...munchkin.  Try to make it cheap, handwave away the stuff.  It's a mindset thing.  I really hate Fantasy Hero and "oh let's pile on every limitation we possibly can" mindset because everything has to be paid for with character points, and the costing simply doesn't work very well.  That's kind of the thing here.  Hero *requires* a highly critical review.  What he's doing is a lot like abusing MegaScale by buying 2" then going MegaScale to get ridiculous range.  Charges?  Why?  One charge per day?  Why?  The fact that there's no defense after the first increment, AND that it's a completely permanent transformation, means Over Time is just a cheese factor to avoid paying for the level of effect that's gonna happen.  If there's no way to fix this once the infection starts, then the Damage Over Time is meaningless.  

And there's still no indication of recovery from the Transform.  His 1d6 per day?  How's that not mostly being recovered naturally?  So the 1 per day increment is meaningless.

NO WAY his construction is reasonable, IMO.

I've got no big problem if it takes a couple days for the physical transform, but that means the Mind Control has to last that long.  

This could also be done via trickery, and anyone Entangled or deeply stunned is at risk.  Yeah, I get such a person could be killed by simpler means, but still.  

First, while scaling a Transform for something like this is tricky...I don't see 4d6 being *close* to enough.  

Seocnd...why try to make the point cost sane?  This SHOULD be insanely expensive in points, given the consequences.  IMO, it's a pretty common flaw to look for price breaks because we're so focused on points.

Last...those Psy Lims aren't the end of it.  Is the victim aware, in any way, of these changes?  They are at the genetic level.  I think the "OMG what am I now???" hasn't been captured at all.  You're also missing the "run away from everyone that I know" that's another essential part of this.  You're also missing some MASSIVE Hunteds that would be implicit...because every other race out there, presumably, would have Kill On Sight against any Genestealer or progeny.

Part 1:  if this is an all or nothing to create at least 40 points of Psy Lim...that's 12d6 to me.  I get the special effect aspect that Ego Def doesn't make sense...but is this why you're not taking the Mental Transform stuff...or are you trying to cheese the cost?  Concentration throughout on the extra time?  I don't see that.  Where's the 0 End?

Part 2 represents a fundamental restructuring of the victim's DNA.  OK, that's a BODY Transform by my lights.  So, to start with, you need to do 2x the BODY.  You started at 4...without recognizing the doubling aspect, that might be close.  You want to make sure that it takes a VERY bad roll for the Transform not to happen.  I'd push a little higher.  Then...double it?  9 or 10d, if you want to maintain the All or Nothing.

Last, there's no recovery at all.  Fine.  Pay for it.  Delayed Return Rate, 5 points per 5 years *at least*....+3 1/2.  Another at least +1 to say the transform's not affected by Regen...or is it?  Or by Healing.

If this costs 400 points, it costs 400 points.  It doesn't matter anyway.  This is pure, unadulterated plot device.  All you need is the time required to pull this off, and the fact the vic has to be incapacitated, because those are aspects of the plot.  Nothing else has to be particularly formal...except perhaps to cover What If?  Like, what if the vic has 20 points of Power Def?  Or 2 Body per Turn regen?  But those are corner cases that you can wing as they arise.

Something crossing my mind.

Who is this for?  Villain or PC?  If it's a villain, do you need an exact point value?  You're trying to match a set of special effects that don't fit well within the system, and were built in the original material for dramatic effect to at least some degree.  And is this intended to be a dramatic threat or a tactical action?

Sure, but Sticky is the only thing we have that allows the spread.  You need a custom variant on it.

Ugh.  Translating from a computer game has special headaches.  There are implicit, underlying world assumptions that fail.  WoW, the battlefield is just you, maybe some allies, and whatever you're facing...no neutrals, no bystanders.  AFAIK.

Hm.  Exact translation is not likely.  I'm looking at Mobile under AoE.  They specifically cover Usable As Attack so you stick it on your target and now, it moves with him.

Of note, are your buddies immune to this?  Are you?  And I can still see where using this would darn near count, today, as unleashing a WMD.  If a hero did this?  If there's any authority evaluating his actions, this would, IMO, be a Major Problem.  If it's a villain...it's a Unabomber attack, or the anthrax-laced mail stuff.  We're definitely talking capital crime, assuming the worst-case is it can kill.  I would actually go so far as to say this would justify a Kill On Sight response level, potentially.

BTW, for tailoring this...the worst case scenario for a highly infectious disease is a major airport, IMO.  Target one TSA person at a central, multi-concourse security checkpoint...I know DIA and O'Hare put their security points to service multiple concourses like this.  OK, so now, why is it that it remains contained...because conditions for transfer are *wonderful*.  

Just a thought experiment you need to address.

Well, the first thought is Sticky.  That's anyone who touches a victim, for +1/2.  That's already nasty enough.  If you make it "anyone within 2 meters" you've got something super-infectious.  I'd consider adding extra time for activation and even 14- activation.  And of course there's the obvious Not Vs the right knds of life support.  

How nasty you want this to be, will impact those points...what's the range for it to spread from A to B?  What's the probability B will be infected?  How long does it take for B to become contagious?  How long after infection before the onset of the damage?  How long after infection before the infection starts showing?  How much contact is required for A to transmit to B...airborne might require, say, a full turn, casual contact like a handshake, soft tissues contact like a kiss (herpes), fluids.  I'm assuming airborne, but say A is infected and doesn't yet know it.  He's a jogger.  He passes by B, a biker in the bike lane next to the running path.  Total time they'd be within 4 meters of each other is maybe a second.  Does that do it?  

45 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I bring this up only because I'm wondering why Champions, or HERO System, doesn't try to market itself with the indie gamers. They love trying new things, have a lot of energy, and enjoy exploring the possibilities of a game system. And they tend to produce a lot of secondary material. The common problem with HERO, that there are no adventures being produced, could be solved if you unleash some indie nerds on the scene!

At a guess?  Age.  It's toooo old!  *6* editions????   That's not new and interesting.  That's Old Skool.  Your DAD played Champions, dude!!!

5 minutes ago, zslane said:

The quick and dirty heuristic I use is this: if an RPG publisher does not operate as a full-time business providing a livable wage for more than its founder/owner, then it is an "indie"/"vanity" publisher.

So you're saying only a one-man shop, more or less, can qualify as an indie?  Maybe, but that feels a little too narrow.