Surrealone

A pesky house rule where usable-as-attack powers always cost end unless limited by charges is showing itself, here. I'm so used to playing with it that I forget it's not RAW.

Some options: Add charges for the power to cover the END cost, else the character has to pay it (seem appropriate for a gun) Continuing charges for an ongoing effect (rather than instant effect)?

In my haste to post before my next conference call -- I forgot to account for endurance and range. I have edited my original response to reflect the changes. I also displayed the real cost. My apologies for missing this while in a rush...

Probability Gun (12 Real Points): Luck 3d6, Usable As Attack (+1 1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Recipient must be within Standard Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (37 Active Points); Unluck Potential: Each '1' rolled counts as 1 point of 'Unluck', negating a '6' (1 point of Luck) that is rolled, and allowing for a potentially unlucky result if the overall result is unlucky rather than lucky (-1), OAF (-1)

If I have, it's been rare. I'm not a 'Wow, you've got to see this movie!' or 'Wow, you should try this game!' kind of person -- as evidenced by very few posts on my FB wall. Instead, I tend to render commentary about my experiences when asked directly about (a la 'Did you see that movie and, if so, what did you think of it?') or in a group discussion where it makes sense (rather like this one on this forum ... or, say, when a number of people are discussing a topic at a gathering). ​Development of marketing strategies ... is work. More important, it's work with which I've no professional skill. I'll leave the marketing up to the professionals ... who, you know, get paid for it. That said, as a lay person even I recognize that people have to know about a product for there to be any possibility of a desire to consume it -- and it has to be available to them in the right places where their readiness to buy is piqued. That means cons, gaming stores, online gamer loci, and the like -- with something (tangible) available to buy (not just a download/PDF). Remember, most gamers like their rules in print (as evidenced by the collections of books most tend to have), so if inventory is too pricey to keep around, then a sample of it will suffice and the means to drive Print On Demand sales (like, say, through DriveThruRPG -- since it's a gamer locus) could drive the sale in realtime. Are Jason and Steve regularly attending gaming cons to help drive their products' awareness? And if so, are they driving realtime sales? Are they incenting people to do these things for them? And is there PoD capability at every major gaming locus -- or a link to PoD capability? I don't honestly know, but I get the sense the answer is 'no' across the board here on this low-hanging fruit. Pluck it first, perhaps... I agree 100% with ghost-angel on this one.

Years ago when dating someone who was a very 'cheap' date (in terms of alcohol consumption) I learned: ----- Approximately 1 out of every 3 individuals of Asian descent experiences 'alcohol flush reaction' (aka 'Asian flush' or 'Asian glow') when alcohol is consumed. This entails a flushed, redness of the skin -- usually the face, neck, shoulders ... and sometimes other parts of the body and/or the entire body. This is thought to be the result of very efficient metabolization of alcohol into acetaldehyde ... in conjunction with a genetic issue that results in less efficient breakdown of the acetaldehyde that is produced. The resulting toxic build-up of acetaldehyde in the body causes increased effects from its presence -- which include the 'flushing' response and also a heightened state of 'drunkeness' from a given amount of alcohol. The allele that causes this seems to have been positively selected for ... in those of Asian descent. The selection has been correlated with the spread of rice cultivation, and it is theorized that the positive selection was the result of the allele conferring protections against parasitic organisms. I've used this in the following type of game translation (as parts of a racial template): ----- LIFE SUPPORT: Immunity to ingested/injected terrestrial parasitic organisms [costs 1 CP] LIFE SUPPORT: Safe Environment - Character is safe in environments where typically-ingestible parasites might enter the body in other places (eyes, nose, etc.) [ costs 1 CP] VULNERABILITY: Ingested/injected alcohol (Uncommon attack, x1 dmg) [complication worth 5 CP] PHYSCOLOGICAL COMPLICATION: Does not drink (common situation, moderate intensity requiring EGO roll at +5 in order to deliberately consume alcohol) [complication worth 10 CP]

It's what some people do, not all people. And, in fact, some people here (Christopher, for example) seem to expect people to do it and, in fact, actively suggest as much (see previous posts in this thread). Then again, apparently he's got work here that's up for sale, so of COURSE he wants people to put forth free marketing for this system, as he has the potential to see financial upside from such efforts, just like the copyright owners do. No, I have never been a member of a for-profit group that that required or expected me to perform labor for it without any kind of award/reward for that labor. I've been a member of non-profit groups to which I and everyone else donated time/effort/materials -- but Hero System isn't a non-profit entity. I've been a member of for-profit entities that sold things to raise money each year -- but the sellers were always incented to sell by receiving a piece of each sale. And there you have it -- if donated time/effort is something expected regarding Hero System, then shouldn't it be non-profit or public domain? Or ... if it's going to be for-profit, then shouldn't Hero System incent people to put up fliers, run its games at cons or local shops, etc?

True. However, the fact that Hero System is copyrighted instead of in the public domain ... tells you what it's about. Heaven forbid someone point out the double-standard of expecting the community to donate time/materials/effort without upside (and, at best, a faint hope of breaking even) ... while failing to levy the exact same expectation on the copyright owners. Gotta block that! (Frankly, I'm unsurprised.)

Doc, You really expect people here to give away their time/passion/energy/effort/skill to make things vibrant ... while forgoing economic benefit ... but do not expect the people who own the rights to Hero System to do the same? Well that seems like a strange double-standard. Why on earth would anyone give so much ... for nothing (no upside) ... if Hero System's owners won't? I'll tell you what -- once Hero System has been placed into the public domain like Linux was ... then I'll donate my time/effort/experience to it like I did in the days of v0.99 Slackware Linux (which is the -original- Linux distribution) where you had to cross-compile your kernel. Until then, Hero System's owners have taken a for-profit angle ... and, thus, have led by example. If donated effort and fan-based, Linux-like momentum and community-building is what the owners want, then they should follow the Linux model. But if big-publishing, Microsoft-like licensing is the model they want to use, well, then it's clear they want a profit-driven, not community-driven endeavor ... and you should respect it. Vondy -- I appreciate your honesty on this. I'll need this as a reference for Tasha and Christopher in a moment. Tasha, Who? A number of people have suggested contribution without so much as an utterance regarding economic upside (or, almost as bad, simply breaking even financially-- see Vondy's quote, above). We just did the math several pages back on how much it costs to produce material -- especially where art is involved -- and pretty clearly determined that the investment is heavy and the return amounts to a hope for 'breaking even at best' (to paraphrase Vondy). And if you weren't 100% sure after that, well, Doc's quoted post, above, pretty much spells it out in 'let's all pitch in for the benefit of the commune'. (Note: No negative implication intended by 'commune'; perhaps I should use the term kibbutz, instead, since it doesn't tend to carry negative connotations?) What you said about demand, talent, social media, and evangelism ... is something I'm now going to paraphrase back to you as -I- perceive what you wrote (when factoring in your words AND the reality of the situation). Ready? Here goes: ​"Since there's inadequate demand for Hero System due to lack of solid marketing/effort by the current owners, we need more demand so that more things are produced which we can then consume. You can become an indentured servant beholden to the copyright licensors if you have talent you'd like to offer up in the form of content for profit, or you can simply give things away, but in either case you'll be lucky to break even (per Vondy reference). Use social media to perform free marketing work for Hero System since the current owners don't really bother (or bother enough), as they'd love to have you do free marketing work for them -- or anything free for them, really. Basically, we have to do marketing/evangelism for Hero System since no one else is -- and despite that being actual 'work', no one's going to pay you for it. The owners of the copyright(s) will see financial gain if your efforts yield community interest and an uptick in sales due to renewed vibrancy, but you shouldn't expect anything for your effort other than the 'reward' of being able to give them yet more of what's yours (in this case money) by purchasing more content they -might- deign to use an influx of cash to produce. Maybe. If Hell freezes. For a decade. In your lifetime." ​Ok, so I know that's a bit harsh, but it's what you've basically suggested when one factors in your desire to see improvement, your suggestion that the community carry the load, the lack of financial upside for the performers of the 'work' associated with carrying that load, the lack of demonstrated interest in marketing Hero System by the copyright owners, and the fact that the copyright owners gain from any increase in sales resulting from the labor of others (whether it be licensed content or guerilla marketing on social media). ​In a nutshell: You, yourself, have said the very sort of thing you asked me 'who' was saying it. Things that make me go, 'hmmm'... Christopher, I'm investigating how the game propsering ... translates to the copyright owners prospering ... without those doing the work necessarily prospering (or even breaking even in terms of invested time and money). I'm also calling into question the for-revenue state of the copyrighted material ... and drawing attention to the fact that anyone who suggests donating time/effort/labor (be it testing, ideas/input, artwork, editing labor, guerilla marketing on social media, etc.) from the community ... should probably be demanding the copyrighted material be placed in the public domain in very same breath. ​If the game, the copyright owners, and the community are going to prosper ... they should do it together. If they can't do it together but are willing to flourish instead of prosper, then the public domain approach is a clear path forward. l'll donate my time/effort if the copyright owners will donate the representation of theirs (the copyrighted material) to the public domain ... so that it's all donated, not-for-profit, community-driven work and benefit. But something tells me the copyright owners don't want a community-driven approach - because if they did, the material would already be in the public domain like Linux is -- wouldn't it?! Christopher, ​My paraphrased translation: "Say you lack talent, you can still put up your money despite the copyright owners not bothering to do effectively free PoD capability work, here; you can do free marketing work for Hero System with your gamer friends or at CONs or local stores; you can spend your own money on paper and ink for fliers and then give up your free time to do marketing work for Hero System by posting those fliers on your own, and you can even recruit talented individuals to become indentured servants to the copyright holders while they wait for a return on their investment if it ever comes. You can put a positive marketing spin on the situation (for which you won't be paid) instead of calling it out in brutally honest fashion (for which you also won't be paid). Or you can sit at a keyboard and type things I don't agree with -- and I'll use verbs with negative connotations to describe such acts in a belittling fashion because I think your time/effort/skill/investment is something you can and should just give away (unless you produce licensed works) even though the copyright owners don't just give away the fruits of THEIR labor. I hope you won't notice my double-standard regarding you giving things away while the copyright owners don't, by the way ...but if you do, I'll likely reuse that 'complain' verb to describe you and others like you." ​Now of course you didn't write all that ... and again, it's harsh. But that is what your suggestion amounts to when you couple it to the reality of what you're saying. Flyers cost money; marketing (in stores, social media, etc.) is labor; monetary and labor investments on the parts of individuals should see upside if the copyright owners stand to benefit from it -- and they do. After all, it's only fair that if they do, so should the people making such investments. To All: Personally, ​I'm tired of the double-standard being swept under the rug by idealists -- which is why I say that if we want to be idealistic about it, then lets all hold hands together (including the copyright owners) and jump into donated effort toward a public domain endeavor together. That's actual idealism without double-standards between laborers and copyright owners -- because there'd be no more copyright, no more licensing, no more upside; it'd be pure effort with production being the 'reward' in which everyone shares. The copyright owners contribute the 'core' while the community contributes the 'muscle' that causes the core to expand, flourish, and see vibrancy again. Oh yea, and Hero System would be free in terms of the cost to consume, too. Guerilla market THAT effectively on social media, on gaming sites, at CONS, in stores, etc. and I bet you'd see an explosion of consumption and use of it to form campaign scenarios and the like. Instead of mom&pop gaming offerings each doing their own thing, they might very well converge on using Hero System as the basis ... offering a level of familiarity as people move from one mom&pop game built on top of Hero ... to another. That's the Linux model folks -- plain and simple. If you want to suggest people contribute in some non-monetary fashion and actually be taken seriously... then the first people you need to convince to contribute ... are the copyright owners ... specifically to provide the material to which effort/labor can be married without concern for upside.

Your third point is the same as your first point -- i.e. active marketing entails slick production, good looking websites, and good looking products that entice people to buy. i.e. Marketing is a key factor in success. To be fair, money is a key factor in marketing; the size of the war chest matters when going to war. But as I previously noted, it's truly ironic that someone whose (per Tasha) "more or less full time job is Indie Press Revolution" can't even be bothered to set up PoD links/mechanisms via Indie Press Revolution for presently PDF-only Hero System books available on this herogames.com site. Clearly Hero System's owners have no interest in further promotion of their products if they can't even be bothered to take that set of small, simple steps, right? ​So why the heck should we care, if their (lack of) actions seem to demonstrate they don't? And why the heck should we license their products and help drive revenue to them ... if they appear not to care enough to do it for themselves AND if the chances of breaking even are so slim for us due to art/production costs? Out of the goodness of our hearts??? Communism? Democratic socialism? Fanaticism? You hoo-mans must always remember Rule of Acquisition #45: 'Expand or Die...'

Snipe one PC ... not to kill ... but to wound. This will slow or tie up that PC (at a minimum) ... and if the wound is substantial enough, could keep one or two more PC's occupied (in defending/protecting, stabilizing, and/or relocating the victim).

And there are no PoD links/mechanisms via Indie Press Revolution for presently PDF-only Hero System books available on this herogames.com site? Now THAT is irony....

VIPER uses snakes to obtain various types of venom for weaponized VIPER agent uses. Examples include but are not limited to: neurotoxins for use in paralytic darts, cytotoxins for use in necrotic darts, and hemotixins for use in clot-inducing or clot-preventing darts. VIPER uses snakes to arm its standard agents with easily carried and concealed followers trained to function on demand while operating on their own speed/initiative. Examples: boa constrictors for entangles, cobras for venomous attacks, ​etc. VIPER uses snakes to genetically enhance its elite agents. Examples of enhancements include but are not limited to: venomous bite akin to vipers, extreme strength akin to constrictors, regeneration a la the shedding of skin, taste as a targeting sense (goes with forked tongue), cold-blooded nature (i.e. temperature-based life support effects), gliding a la flying snakes, and flash attack a la spitting cobras. VIPER uses snakes for base defenses. Some bite for damage, others paralyze with venom, still others constrict for entangle effects

While noted above, I want to underscore this more vigorously: Unless your character is also negatively impacted by the smoke, you will definitely want to apply the Personal Immunity advantage to smoke-related powers that obscure vision, apply combat penalties, cause damage, etc.

zslane, Apparently some people feel that individuals should donate their time and effort to help the current owners of the copyright(s) see an uptick in usage. While noble-sounding, there's real work involved, and the only people who will see financial upside from that work (and the resulting uptick in usage of Hero System -- i.e. uptick in sales) are the owners of the copyright(s)... i.e. NOT the donors of the time/effort. I'd only feel comfortable volunteering time/effort on such a project if the Hero System content/copyrights were first placed into the public domain -- because I have a bit of a problem with one or more individuals receiving financial upside from the fruits of donated time/effort -- rather than the donors of that time/effort receiving it (or the upside being pumped back into the project and no one receiving it). Anyone care to wager on the probability of THAT (public domain tidbit) happening? I don't. But unless it does, I tend to feel that the people who own the content can do their own work for their own financial upside ... and/or pay others a fair/reasonable wage to do work to help drive their financial upside. Capitalism, ya' know?

This resonates with me, lately...

This matches what I've experienced 100% of the time when playing with GMs who have caps -- i.e. the GM holds the powers in the framework to the cap, not the framework, itself. As a matter of clarification, only once have I had advantages on a VPP (framework) -- specifically an @0 END advantage on a VPP for a character for whom it made sense. I point this out because when laying advantages onto a framework that is at or above the cap, the advantages absolutely should be scrutinized and considered with the active points of the powers -- since max strength powers (i.e. powers at cap) will effectively violate the cap when the advantages are considered. (In this lone, edge case, there were no caps on the game, so it was irrelevant.)

Next up: Godwin's Law will likely be demonstrated (again)...

I've used the OS analogy for years among people I know since it's a good one; it was pleasing to see another use it here. However, I'm not sure why you think I indicated Tasha brought it up -- because I don't recall stating anything of the sort. With that out of the way, it's worth noting that analogies only go so far ... and this one's no exception. Comparing Linux to Hero System has clearly taken the analogy too far, since: a) someone actually owns the rights to Hero System; b ) Hero System is sold (as opposed to selling support for it); and c) there is a forum for rules questions that only one person can respond to -- providing a clear separation of 'official' responses from 'fan' responses. Those are just the easiest failures in the analogy for me to think of off the top of my head; I'm sure there are more. My point is that it's a good analogy to describe how Hero System works/functions compared to many other role playing games, but it when you try to use it to describe the 'business' of Hero System ... and compare it with the 'business' of Linux ... the analogy breaks down. As for 'Rules as Written' versus 'Rules As Intended' .... written words have meaning; when that meaning is unclear it is normal and natural to seek clarity from their author(s). Solid support for what's written entails provision of that clarity; poor support for it does not. To bring us back on topic: I still contend that MCV should begin at 0 and that it's something that should be fixed in a future rev of the product. Until that time, I think a selldown to 0 makes sense for all non-mentalists (including villains, npc's, followers, players, etc.), since MCV is no longer related/tied to EGO, since OMCV makes zero sense for non-mentalists, and since MDCV for non-mentalists is only mildly plausible (read: handwaveable), at best. The former statement is, of course, subject to GM discretion regarding his/her game -- and for those GM's who insist on those stats remaining as base 3 for non-mentalists unless there's some exceptional reason why it would be lower, only exceptional characters with legit reasons should perform selldowns.

Nothing worthwhile to say given the latest turns of discussion in this thread. Wow. Just ... wow.

Actually, if you go back and look, someone else brought it back up, not me -- so I'm unsure why you've fixated on me. That said, I -did- ask two follow-up questions when it came back up -- and I'd like to point out that doing so is quite different from complaining (as is pointing out a legitimate challenge/barrier for new players). Interestingly, instead of answering them you appear to have elected to deflect ... and avoid them ... and instead, attack me. Have you considered a career as a politician? (The questions still stand, by the way -- I'd like to know the answers to them.) And no one said you compared WoD to Hero; I specifically said 'things like WoD to Hero'. I used that qualifier precisely because you said 'many game companies don't have someone besides fans on hand to have questions answered officially.' So let's take a look at that statement. First, fan answers aren't official answers. Second, and most important, there just aren't many generic, OS-like games such as Hero System (that I am aware of). Certainly there are a few ... and I feel it's fair to compare their level of support to that of Hero ... but when you claim there are 'many game companies' that don't offer what we have here ... you are clearly referring to game companies producing games that are not generic, OS-like systems such as Hero ... since there aren't many of those. That's where comparing 'many game companies' seemed disingenuous and dismissive, to me ... because it clearly wasn't an apples-to-apples statement ... and because generic, OS-like games tend to need clarification more than less precise games. But we're off topic again.

And exactly why aren't the authors of the Complete books supporting them like Steve supports 6e1&2? And if 6e1&2 are the 'real' 6e, then why are they out of print? Also worth noting -- many game companies don't have an operating system-like approach that requires official answers to ensure the operating system is being used as intended.... making your statement a rather disingenuous one, as you're comparing apples and oranges when you compare things like support for WoD to support for Hero System, for example. Surreal P.S. Did you mean to imply that hurt feelings and/or an internal pissing match may have something to do with why only out of print books receive official support ... and why in-print Complete books don't? It sure sounded like it ... and if so, well, I'd think solving THAT kind of internal problem might go a long way to improving external support and perception. Ya' think?

My expectations of RPG publishing are presently grounded in crowd funding and/or POD (print on demand) approaches, as that's basically how it's done in today's world. However, I spoke up about 'those getting paid by the business to' do the marketing things you mentioned because that was real 'work' you were talking about -- and anyone doing it should reasonably expect to be compensated. Put another way, it's only reasonable to expect the people who see upside from the marketing endeavors to do the marketing work. That means the owners/authors ... and anyone they pay to do such work. I am, however, glad you caught my hint about a need for real marketing ... because it's been strangely absent for a while, and without it, people are prone to thinking Hero System is out of business.

Probably those getting paid by the business to do so, since the things you mention are typically associated with 'marketing' and, more specifically, are often known as 'work'. Most people tend to want to be paid for 'work' that they perform... so if you've noted a shortage of individuals doing the sort of 'marketing' 'work' of which you wrote, the business may wish to rectify it.

EXISTING CHALLENGES: Official support only for out-of-print books: One challenge comes in the form of a 2-volume set of officially supported 6th Edition books (with rules clarifications that reference pages within them) that you can't get your hands on in new, hardcopy form from a gaming store. You -might- be lucky and find them in a used (gaming) bookstore or ebay store ... if the books happen to be present ... in which case you can expect to pay $125 or more dollars for the pair. No official support for 'Complete' books: Another challenge is lack of official support (in the form of rules clarifications that reference pages within books, themselves) for the hardcopy 'Complete' books. As above, you won't find these new in gaming stores, but you CAN order them new off this site -- assuming you know about it, in which case you probably aren't new to this system. PDF-Only or PDF-First ... sucks: Face it, people don't magically know to come to this site to purchase PDF's or the hardcopy books that are available ... unless they already know about Champions/Hero System and happened to have found this site, in which case they probably aren't newcomers to the offering. People with our hobby tend to want hardcopy, not PDF -- as evidenced by the walls of hardcopy books gamers tend to own. PDF's are nice for searches and easy portability, but it's tough to build a gaming business on PDF's alone unless you have a print-on-demand offering that turns them into hardcopy ... which Hero System lacks for some inexplicable reason (given how easy it is to set up). Size/Cost: What used to be a thin set of books (Champions 1st Ed., 2nd Ed., 3rd Ed.) ... that was compiled into one sub-200 page book (Champions 4th Ed.) ... suffered massive bloat with 5th Ed. Revised and 6th Edition ... and with that bloat came more cost for the materials. Lack of genre/flavor books that let you get going quickly: Ok, so you've got Fantasy Hero and Star Hero, but they are far, far from pre-built worlds/modules that can be easily run with little to no effort on the GM's part and still feel distinct/separate from another Fantasy Hero or Star Hero campaign. In order to produce a unique-feeling world, a GM has to do a LOT of up front work using Hero System ... and that's just not the case with a lot of systems. Many let a GM quickly slam things together (or do it on the fly) ... but that's just darn tough to do well with Hero System. Perceived complexity: While Hero System can be as simple or complex as the GM and his/her group want it to be (by eliminating rules that aren't desired), it takes work/effort to decide which things will be pared down. That act, alone, is a level of complexity many systems don't have. And then when GM and players agree on what 'optional' rules won't be used, the next step is to build out (templates, npc's, villains, villain teams, characters, devices, vehicles, bases, etc.) around what's in use -- which newcomers always describe as 'time-consuming' and 'mathy' ... even if it is just basic math.