TheDarkness

I would love to see the discussions that take place in the letters to the editor section. "Dear Vile Daily, Last week I wrote that Dr. Destroyer was an out of touch individual sporting a ridiculous suit of armor, and that his plots for world domination and or destruction were derivative and infantile. I would like to retract that statement. Dr. Destroyer's relevance to our community, world, and multiverse is both essential to it, and greater than the sum of its parts. Further, I beg of the good doctor to return my family, my villain team, and my combat cycle to me. I know that he is a merciful god, and hope only the best in his attempts to destroy all. Sincerely, Killcount Grimdark"

Oh, and groundfighting. The optional groundfighting rules in CC are, um, odd. The penalties for medium and long weapons are almost not even penalties. And not allowing things defined as kicks or making people fall makes sense only if the other person is on the ground- if not, that rules out two of the only working approaches someone on the ground has against someone standing. I suppose the medium and long weapon penalties must be in relation to standing enemies, and the no kicks and falling versus the ones on the ground, but it seems a bit off. I'm tending to think of groundfighting in terms of 'as above, so below'. If I choose to flesh out an approach to groundfighting, I may view having mount as standing for the mounting fighter, and prone for the one mounted. In which case, sweeps would function as sweep when standing. Anyway, not working on that at this point.

So, my current thoughts on the maneuvers-these aren't full builds yet, just the approach I'm thinking of taking: THE FREE MANEUVERS block OCV vs. OCV roll with a trigger, if the defender wins the roll, they attack the next segment Issues: How to model an OCV vs. OCV roll that, if succeeding, cancels out the attack effect whether attacking the next segment is too powerful disarm Not sure this one needs any change dodge No need to change, simple build grab some minor things. Squeezing should not be as damaging as slamming or throwing. Not sure if I'd model the OCV/DCV penalties the same. haymaker -5 DCV, +4 DC, takes time, simple build move by/move through I'm not even going to deal with this one right now. Lot's of build related things, I don't think it needs much adjusting for its build multiple attack This, I'm not treating as a mechanic, but as game physics. So no build necessary, it's a part of the landscape that one can do with maneuvers and other things. shove This, to some extent, I think is more a property of STR than necessarily a maneuver per se. strike simple enough Trip A bonus of strength with the caveat that all strength in the attack is for purposes of determining knockdown only. choke -2 OCV, -2 DCV, NND, requires grab club weapon I'm not sure how to model changing the damage type, since it is literally point per point the same, I'm not sure it needs to be modeled. However, I am baffled at why the DCV gets a +2 bonus on this power- it's essentially just a strike. There should be no DCV bonus. roll with a punch basically hardened damage reduction with an OCV vs. OCV activation roll and a -1d6 on the knockback roll. THE MARTIAL MANEUVERS martial choke just one added D6 NND and no penalty on DCV actually, most of these just are beefed up versions of the original moves, so once those costs are clear, these will be easy enough builds. The problem children here are throws, trips, and sweeps. I've been working on modeling them based on KD instead of the current versions modeled on change environment. Trips and sweeps that works easily enough. Throws, because of the comic book genre norm of throwing people huge distances, is a bit more problematic. Essentially, two totally different things are lumped into that same maneuver. Comic book fastball specials, and throwing people as in performing a throw. These two things should not function the same at all. And the fact that the martial throw does not require grabs also throws a curveball into it. Martial throws should be skill based in their success, and could add strength to their effect. And, the fact that the thrower could lift the weight of the attacker if they were a barbell has less influence on whether they can do so in a fight- leverage plays a huge factor. I can generally ground out much stronger people trying to throw me, and I'm hardly alone in this. Almost all throws depend on momentum from the person being thrown. As it stands, throws seem to favor only Strength, and I think this is based on being paired with the fastball special. It doesn't have to mirror reality exactly, but separating these two would add throwing as a useful option for a lot of non-strength based characters. Anyway, that's where I am with this. Once I have a rational idea on the costs, then a framework to make those costs fit. But the framework needs to be suitable for skills, as it needs to function with bonuses to OCV, DCV, DC, etc. Then, that framework needs to be adjusted for other uses than martial arts.

I would do an end run around the issue in that case. Since only cold really does anything, and since it is always prone, and since touching it damages everything, I'd let it be at 1/2 DCV. The price for touching it would make the odds of attempting to strike it for zero effect small. Is there a crawling movement? Can't seem to find it. Now, for schmoo, I'd use Lucius' build.

I raise thee, thread, from the pit. Arise! Arise! So, in modeling my own martial arts, I've decided to take a position of going back to formula. I'm treating all maneuvers as results of game physics, not the physics themselves. Since martial maneuvers are often based on the ordinary maneuvers, I am modeling the ordinary maneuvers as well. Toward this end, I am not trying to emulate the martial arts system OR the maneuvers closely, BUT I am trying to include balancing features which I think the maneuvers system is actually quite good at recognizing. For example, block is an effective tool for slow Speed and Dex characters to have a fighting chance. That FUNCTION should be preserved, but that BUILD is problematic, because it is absolute(no matter the opponent's DEX, you will go first=infinite unpaid DEX bonus). It is my intention that basic maneuvers are still free. It is simply a matter of defining what they would cost so that moves modeled off of them can be easily made and priced. None of the rules for having a martial arts pool will be carried over from the patch. You don't need KS: energy blasts to have an energy blast. If you want KS: sword and shield vs. war hammer, you certainly may get benefits from it, but you don't need to buy it. I've met plenty of people who fight well, but not because they have a deep knowledge of their system, but more, the combination of tools they tend to use are highly effective together. You won't need ten slots or whatever, although more slots will make the pool effective. I'm working from a perspective of basic builds for specific effects. I am not trying to reduce costs, I'm trying to make the exact builds now. After, once the lay of the land is clearer to me, I will attempt the ineffable act of designing a new kind of pool. As justification for a pool that may include skills, I point to the obvious pseudo pool that is the current martial arts system. Needs a buy-in of points? Check. Needs a range of things that can be included while having a narrow enough spectrum of topic matter that the pool applies to? Check. Need slots? Check. It's a pool, just not one whose rules and cost structure is truly defined in Hero terms, and one that includes skills to boot.

"The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not have a power that makes him standing again, he is just resistant or effectively immune(EITHER ONE IS FINE) to the effect of BEING MADE prone, NOT to BEING prone" There, took out the confusing bit, that should make sense. So, if MADE prone, he's as prone as anyone else. It's getting him there that's the problem. The problem with the previous builds for that purpose is it's a strain on the narrative if he gets thrown as much as anyone else, there is no saying, "well, the effect is he was never thrown, even though he keeps taking damage from it." As for why, could be any of a number of reasons. Odin gave him the power. Radioactive isotopes in his baby formula gave him an unnatural sense of balance. His ring once belonged to the Weeble Wizard. For a canonical reference to someone with a similar power, I'm trying to recall the X-Men villain who could not be moved. The Juggernaut? However, that is much simpler to model, since, unless I'm missing one, all the powers that could be used to do this are modeled on KB and STR. Versus KD it's also simple. Versus all of the combat maneuvers, it's complicated, because their effect is absolute and not modeled on STR OR KB. This is why earlier, I mentioned the attack roll being the one part that can be affected, having a higher DCV versus the attempt. Versus the effect, since there is no roll and the effect is absolute, I'm not sure how one approaches that, undoubtedly Change Environment again.

He's not pyramid shaped, he's just a guy with a power and a silly name derived from that power, that he's incredibly stable. Now, if you can make him prone, he's prone. It's the making him that way that is intended to be the problem, though the above powers would, in many cases, effects wise work for that, in a large number, they don't.

I think the full builds should be put in an Appendix at the end, and only really necessary to include for those things that aren't in the main book already.

Yes.

The issue is, I'm not actually trying to build a character from this, it is a few questions that are helping me understand how builds for being made prone are often done, what options are often used, etc. I'd say, a good percentage of the time, they would suffice for a man who is hard to knock over, but they would not fulfill the effect against being thrown, tripped, etc. This is not to say they wouldn't be good builds for such a character, that depends on how closely to the desired effect one wanted the power. So, I think there are a number of clear answers for how to build a character who, if conscious, is unlikely to STAY prone. For many uses, this would suffice to sub for 'cannot be put down'. The second question, a character who is resistant or immune to the effect of being MADE prone. If made prone, he does not need to have a power that makes him standing again, he is resistant or effectively immune to the effect of being made prone, not being prone. With knockback, it is clear how to make a character resistant to it. Immune would be costly, but the overall building is balanced and clear. With builds from change environment, it seems quite a bit more difficult. Countering whatever attack roll is easy to model, and thus is probably the simplest option. Countering the effect is not, at least based on my understanding. So, the first part of this thread built 'the good man you can't keep down'. Now, the same powers, effect wise, could be used to model 'the man you can't put down', except for in the case of things that cause a player to become prone and have a second result as part of it(so, for instance, if I've made a man who is incredibly hard to make prone, but every time he is thrown, we say the game effect is that he was never not standing, yet he takes damage from the throws, this will probably be problematic for someone who actually wants to be hard to take off his feet.

i understand the gravity of this discussion, and don't mean to take it too light... That discussion about martial arts and pools is something I've been working on a good amount since. One of the issues, for me, is that my experience with fantasy is near zero, so I have been looking a lot at the system and how it deals with things. For example, in this thread, the idea of a spell that knocks down people came up. At the point I'm at now, I'm heavily leaning toward very transparent builds(versus the martial arts system, which, design wise, muddies up the overall system). As such, I'm leaning toward getting rid of the absolutes, but making sure that their function still remains. So, block is an absolute, it adds effectively infinite DEX in order to allow a followup attack to go first(if in the same phase). That's the biggest sticking point, as it is important for allowing lower speed and DEX characters a fighting chance. I'm working on modeling things to fulfill this purpose. As already stated, throws, trips, and sweeps also include an absolute. I'm not a huge fan of 'the cheapest build is the right build', and since I'm planning on home brewing a type of pool that transparently allows the sort of things that the martial arts system currently does by manner of hand wave, cost issues should be mitigated by the end. Undoubtedly I will often ask questions, possibly to that thread, as I come across them. But, it's going to be a process, so that the pool is something useful beyond martial arts, and is balanced. I've played with making block have a trigger that allows an attack in the next segment. That would actually, in most cases, fulfill a similar role, without involving infinite unpaid DEX, but it might actually be too good.

I know, which is still d3 blast, basically. Since it is only light, that puts it closer to the range it should be in. I know, nitpicky. It just seems like a 1-2 pt. power, unless the AoE or range is really quite large.

So, is it fair to say, for actual resistance to being made prone(as opposed to recovery of standing status), the main factors are: 1) If it's knockback, anything that raises a character's values versus the attack roll, and/or resist knockback, added stun vs. KB, etc. to resist the KB rolled 2) If it's based off of Change environment, only the attack roll can be resisted, the actual result is not alterable(even if the prone result is only for just a nanosecond, as the above builds would do)? The second part is really the one that confuses me, as I'm half expecting that change environment would do it, but be pricey, but I don't get how or how not.

No, I was asking about the throw because for most of the builds, in the case of throw, sweep, etc., I was presuming that the damage would still occur for the maneuver. So it threw me off when you were talking about writing off damage related to conditions (which I presumed the cause would be a throw or sweep or what have you, but never stated outright). So I'd assumed you'd almost have to allow the damage for spikes, since that would probably be the point of someone doing it to the character/NPC. Now, if the character accidentally fell, I could see writing it off. Anyway, I was just thrown off by that, but I did not actually mention the conditions that caused the prone state, so I understand what you're getting at. I'm actually more trying to understand builds that involve prone, and confirm what aspects I do understand with the help of the forums.

Okay, this is where I become confused. While these builds prevent remaining prone, am I to understand it that they also prevent the damage from a throw, for example?

Oh yeah, I didn't think of that...

I like this idea. BUT, it does have to deal with the damage for falling. That's a big potential damage, so the points would still end up being quite high, I would think.

You know, it's funny. I sometimes will model exactly an idea I have, not sure whether I'll use it. Sometimes its of little value. BUT, sometimes, it yields something good. And sometimes, I find that realistic approaches are sometimes simpler than what is commonly done with fewer weird complications that come up. Even when they're not, they're sometimes useful from a villain death-trap kind of perspective. That's kind of what got me started on retooling martial arts for my own purposes. I had to, because me and too many of my players have decades of martial arts experience, and some of the martial arts system just doesn't make sense, both from a fight perspective and from a Hero perspective. The whole construct simplifies character generation, but absolutely kills builds outside of the setup for the most part, and limits things to that interpretation. I'm finding that, instead of complicating things, using a realistic base actually simplifies matters. What's especially funny to me is that, given the nature of damage in Hero, making it more realistic does not take away the cinematic flavor, but it does make it more contentious when you can't count on automatic knockdowns via sweeps and throws, and when your moves to help you deal with higher speed characters are also not absolute in nature. Mind you, the write-ups are awful at this point. All sorts of naked advantages outside pools, so confusing to read. And my anger at no skills in pools while martial arts clearly totally just hand waves the fact that it's a pool full of skills. I just want to shine a light on this injustice, but I don't know how to make a light...

Yes. I feel its mood actually is a really good point about it. When I first moved to KC, the memorial was not open, and the hill it was one had become a bit seedy. Once it opened again, I was amazed the first time I went inside it, I was just floored.

I actually think, between the group, the elements for doing it, if one wanted to, are there, which is pretty impressive. Mind you, I have no idea how to model the increased acceleration and difference in damage, but, if the requirements are: 1) moves every segment 2) deals damage based on when the hit occurs 3) damage and acceleration increase at varying rates then peak We have a functional approach. Crazy.

I could actually see the cinematic appeal of it taking six segments to reach maximum speed, even if one didn't model the acceleration quite exactly, and by way of the extra time limitation, it would occur on all the segments until it was done. Odds are, the character would be saved or hit something long before reaching terminal velocity. In a city environment, we're talking, most commonly 5d6 damage.But, it would be ridiculously expensive.

It's the fun of sending them careening. Will they careen long enough to take the full damage, or can they be saved? This is exactly the sort of power that has a 'must be done to Lois Lane' clause in it. Sure, it won't end well for the villain, but that's not the point.

First, anyone who can build three builds off of weebles is okay in my book. So, cool stuff. Let's say that the ground is covered in spikes. So, all the previous builds would entail getting horribly mutilated and then being teleported or position shifted or kipping up to a standing position, and then holding my spleen so that it won't fall out while wondering why I chose to fight in a deadly spike factory's display area. How to build the weeble for that situation? +OCV only against attacks that make me prone? Let's assume it doesn't have to be guaranteed protection.

Reflection would be a good one, although it doesn't really feel like the description, does it? I mean, why would the attacks go back to the attacker given the described effect of the power? Or did you mean deflection? As for the first build, DCV ONLY works if the goal is not to confound a marksman. Otherwise, the marksman becomes the only person to hit them. Whereas actually modelling the power as described, in this case, makes it so the marksman is highly likely to hit the illusion until they figure out what is going on. So it totally depends on what the game goal is. IMO, sometimes, the exact effect is important, sometimes, the feel of the effect is all that's needed.

Oh, hadn't thought about the SPD issue. I suppose you could just buy enough movement for this crazy power to actually be equal to the distance to terminal velocity plus some, then take the extra time limitation on the use. That would get around the SPD issue for a gajillion points. The damage, I see what you mean now. So that, also, has to be bought, and I see now that damage over time wouldn't really work, as it's spread evenly.