TheDarkness

I did not support all of Bush's initiatives, but I did not generally see him as evil. I hoped he was more like his father, and would recognize the dangers of giving his base too much, but he was not, and that did lead to a lot of the problems we see now. Trump has made use of white nationalists. Unless he clips their wings fast, any compromise would merely be a convenience for me, given that I'm white, that others would be paying for who were not so lucky. That's not at all principled. Now, if he clips their wings, then he's just more of the same, and that would be a relief.

The problem is, Trump utilized flat out white nationalists. Not as some side thing. These aren't people anyone needs to call racists, they call themselves it. Every day, Publicly. This is not the klan just saying, we support this guy, no one can control that. This is the actual candidate putting one of these people in a key role in his organization, this is quoting them on twitter with his own account, this is utilizing them on twitter every damned day.

Yes, I tend to think of him as the penultimate sort of "magic by understanding" wizard.

White nationalists played an important role in his twitter campaign, and his staff included someone who provides the (by this staff member, self-professed) news outlet for the alt-right, all of whose major figures are likewise (self-professed) white nationalists. Trump's twitter account on multiple occasions tweeted messages that were quotes from white nationalists. This would have, in every previous election in my life, been the end of his campaign. It's kind of hard NOT to demonize such a brazen association with white nationalists. And it's kind of to be expected that people who might not be cozy with the historical implications of a president with overt ties to white nationalists might see 'hey, let's all get along' as either disingenuous or ill-informed. Now, I do not rule out that Trump will dump those white nationalists now that he is president. But, unfortunately, he has already shown them that they have political power. That was not a good idea, and is, in my opinion, the biggest issue.

From an overall Hero perspective, I totally understand what you are saying, and agree. From a perspective of building a system of prebuilds, balance becomes a bigger issue. The tiers aren't any more of a mechanic than any other package system's approach, they are just a simpler way of putting caps on APs and DCs and other things that otherwise mostly requires the full system. In the prebuilt, yes, you may have more than one dispel(which is not inconsistent with fantasy games in general, and so it's a no-brainer for most players to deal with the concept of spell levels, least of all Hero players, who deal with much higher levels of complexity than, "When building a 200 point character, you may select any tier one ability, and up to X tier two abilities). Yes, this is a buy structure, but you would need one to prevent people from putting a big chunk of points into a higher AP ability. I am not saying that APs absolutely couldn't be used for a similar thing, but that, for most gamers, it is simpler to say "you can choose X from list one, and Y from list two". This isn't really a new mechanic, it's more akin to campaign limits, which is a lot of what is being hardwired in. It's identical to saying "You cannot have anything with over X APs, and you cannot have more that two powers with over Y AP cost." But it's in English, because these players would only be doing Hero builds by default, not by their own design. It is not to be a lesson in the deeper aspects of Hero for them. They want a game, not a tutorial. But, if they get into the game, it is an incentive to get into the full system so they can build that extra special thing that they can't put together in prebuilts. Plus, in Hero, there would likely be more than one dispel as well. So the difference in text is the difference between Hero accounting and simple English. To be clear, in this thread, we are not proposing an intro-level book. We are proposing a system built from Hero, not a modification of Hero that one would have to switch into Hero from eventually. A fully fledged game. And one whose GMs and players would find advantage to also having the Hero books while playing, since any Hero power would be compatible with this game, so they could fine tune. By doing this, there is an incentive to also buy Hero, there is a compatibility for anything generated in the prebuilt game with any Hero game, there is a fast way to build characters and NPCs that would be usable in EITHER system, thus saving Hero GMs time, but, the new game never enters into the proposition of "the only reason this exists is to convince players who may not want to spend a long time in character generation, but still want to generate characters, to be convinced they should." The game must exist on its own merits, and this is why balance is vital, since the build elements are not accessible, they must be hardwired in, and I'm really not seeing any complexity added by saying that things under X AP are list or tier or level one, and the repetition of powers that relate to each other, like dispel I, dispel II, almost all would have to be listed multiple times if provided in any system, and usually are. However, I could propose a compromise. If APs are used, the book could simply say, "at 200 points, you can have X number of powers under Y AP, as many as you want under Z AP, and none at F AP. To choose, list 1 has things under Y AP, blah blah." Unfortunately, that's more words than just, "At 200 points, you can have all the powers from list one and up to two from list two."

The description previously written in this thread for a dispel was no longer than spell descriptions in any fantasy game.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/queen-offers-to-restore-british-rule-over-united-states

Understood!

I think screwing up has many degrees before apocalyptic tragedy. That still doesn't make it the best course.

I don't think there's been an election that can easily be compared to this one in many decades. I don't expect Trump can actually fulfill any of his promises, even if he intends to, which I doubt he does. I'm more concerned with the legitimizing of white nationalism and its current crop in alt-right(not even a debate- all the major leaders are white nationalists, every...single...one, and they got to see that they can pull not insignificant weight in an election, and publicly*), and the GOPs total loss of control of it. That is dangerous. *So, an overtly white nationalist organization openly took leadership in aspects of a presidential campaign, had open ties to the candidate, openly practiced and preached their white nationalism, and that campaign won. You have to go back to the Jim Crow era to see that happening. On the bright side, Poe's Law passed by a wide margin today.

What's really weird about this election is that, on Facebook, all the people I know who are in the center or center right who are fiscal conservatives are totally flabbergasted by this. NORMALLY, this would be a bad sign for the Republican nominee.

Cantriped, if I come on too strong, forgive me. On one level, I want to build what I imagine. On a second level, Trump.

Maybe I'll stay in China for four more years.

I could see their inclusion, though I think the build put up earlier with standard effect used for dispels is really good for a system like what we're talking about.

Okay, persuasion and mind control. The difference is in how they work. Persuasion should almost always have a lot of modifiers. It also should be presumed to take time. Mind control may be instantaneous, how success is determined will generally have less modifiers. They have one metric that is similar, that is true, but every other metric is different. That's the reason for the cost difference. And the distinction from martial arts. Not because one is a skill and one is a power, but because their odds of achieving an effect on the game and the time it takes to do so is quite different, and in the case of mind control, far less conditional. So, the 'when the former works' you speak of is intrinsic to why the cost is different. Costs are for balance, not to enforce categories. The wizard's spells, conversely, are the exact same build, the exact same effects, but cost more for no added value to the system. Now, as martial arts being 'not in any way intended as powers', you previously were very specific in referring to them having advantages, which means they are, in that way, absolutely intending to be built like powers. I just find it odd that the argument against building skills as powers is a system that does exactly that. To be clear, the martial arts system's greatest strength is recognizing game balancing elements that are needed. Specifically, block, something that allows slower characters a chance. However, if you wish to argue that this is modelling a reality that all humans can do due to physics and evolution, as opposed to it serving a useful game function but not modelling any such thing, you're going to run into problems, because in the real world blocks don't do any such thing. In the real world, sweeps don't usually do more damage than a punch to the face. In the real world, throws don't work that way. Heck, in the real world, untrained people never do throws in fights, they do trips and shoves, and if you see a throw, ten times out of ten they picked it up somewhere. In the real world, hitting with the blunt side of your weapon does not add defensive value. As for convoluted builds, break down sweep as it stands to what game effects it has, and you will see it is just a convoluted build that is discounted(in its case, it is the game physics that it convolutes. It's Strength based, so, let's see, how to do a strength based KNOCKDOWN? Change environment. Hm.) . It's not like having actual builds do it could not be standardized, and bought all package-like using a system whose costs are clearly explained. In the martial arts system, all costs are discounted, including the base costs. There is no undiscounted cost to even determine the level of discount. This is to clarify, I wasn't asking WHY there is a discount. I was asking for the rules of the discount. The nature of the pool. I'm betting money the discount is totally different from move to move and arbitrary. It's one thing to have to arbitrarily decide what value a thing should have based on experience and then test it, its another to also arbitrarily decide on the discount for a list of slots on a slot by slot basis with no explanation. Most importantly, the only reason the system prevents martial arts from overshadowing powers is because it largely enforces caps, no other reason. And it does this while enforcing the rules elsewhere of no skills in pools, and ignoring them for its own uses. Which, again, would be no big deal if it were an option, instead of an enforced norm that is at odds with the system physics and enforces a view of martial arts that is often dated. It precludes other approaches at martial arts that would build it with cost savings but still maintain balance, which is entirely at odds with Heroes central philosophy of building what you imagine.

The levels of power are a construct for balance. Without the full system, balance has to be prebuilt into the system. Therefore, to prevent a starting wizard putting all his starting points into a big power, when things like DC caps and all are part of the underlying system, but not spelled out in it, you hardwire it in. And it's not making new stuff, it's merely choosing a vernacular that is understandable to larger audiences. As for what already works, that's the whole point of this thread. A means for getting new players who would normally be turned off by the complexity of some aspects of Hero, which is called most of the market. As for players being confused by the concept of levels, I'm not sure what Hero players that could possibly be, unless Hero is the only game they ever played or heard of. I'm fairly certain if they looked at such a system, they would almost immediately go, "Ah, I see how you built that!" And quickly recognize the higher AP things from the lower. And I'm certainly not seeing added complexity. It's the same rule system. Only all prebuilts. It's just Hero being used for the design code, and English being used for the description.

One thing that has come up in the past is the idea that some of my goals were: Trying to do something with the system that it really wasn't designed for, or... Trying for a martial realism that the system wasn't meant for In response to the second, the way damage works in Hero largely precludes that. In response to the first, I think it is an underestimation of the system, and an overestimation of the complexity of how many things in fighting would affect it. To illustrate that last statement. Martial arts is a lot of detail work. This is certainly true. And knowledge is meaningless without entraining it. However, if you look at how a direct application of common things plays out in Hero, I think you will find that it is hardly a complexity that Hero players wouldn't find utterly simple. Throws At worst, in Hero, four builds could emulate ALL THE THROWS THAT EVER WERE. And we're talking pretty simple builds Strikes Strike already covers a huge number. There's frankly no reason that slight adjustments to the same thing couldn't cover every fist and palm strike AND ALL KICKS in existence. In Hero terms, the difference in damage is not particularly large between the heaviest muay thai kick and a punch. We're talking two, three builds at the most. Feints Feints are a science in actual martial arts. You develop a number of them, their overuse invalidates their usefulness, etc. In Hero, it's one build. Reading an Opponent In actual use, there's so many different things to look out for. Do they look where they're going to strike, do they look this way to hide it, do their shoulders give them away, do they tend to withdraw their foot a little when they're initiating their kick? In Hero, one damn skill Sweeps At most, two builds cover all the sweeps(sweeping one leg, sweeping both). Counters One basic build that is added on to different attacks to make a counterstrike, a counterthrow. Done. It's a bit maddening, because in reality, counters are like the combination of all the complexities of fighting. They are serious work to become a skilled practitioner of, they are often what separates the wheat from the chaff. Yet in Hero, all that, easily summed up in one basic build. Locks For some reason, a lot of locking, and especially the martial arts known for it, are interpreted super grimdark, which they certainly can be. The reality is, two builds, one to restrain, one to damage. Crushing Hero is obsessed with crushing grips in kung fu. I vaguely recall reading the section on Dragon style kung fu. I know some dragon style. You use a strong grip. You don't really crush with it. This is the result of bad translations in the past, but that's neither here nor there. Kung fu styles hate big effort for small return. One semi-famous story has it that the nephew of a great master had his leg crippled by his second wife, who knew some kung fu. In translation, it was translated that she crushed his leg. In Chinese, she seized it. Seize in this case refers to grabbing and locking. Anyway, crushing is part of the meme now, I don't really have a problem with that, but it's one of those weird accidents the way it became part of it. Mostly included this part because I find the whole crushing grip thing is super common in Hero. I prefer my crushing grip with a side of dejected Zod. Draws Draws are leaving an opening to draw an attack, specifically baiting them to move a particular part of their guard so you can hit them at the opening that creates. Totally buildable, a few builds based on what the followup attack is. There's more things, but above is a huge amount of martial arts. Covered in a narrow number of builds that are completely doable, completely allow for interesting opportunities, and really don't represent anything game breaking.

I think I didn't make myself clear. If the wizard has a spell, no incantation required, no gestures, called "Spirit of the Pugilist" that in all ways was exactly the same as strike. A spell, spirit of the grappler, that was in all ways exactly the same as throw. The sweeping legs of Wong Feihung. The snakes deadly fingers. The sword of dawn. The change environment alone on the throw and sweep would put the cost beyond the exact same list of powers in martial arts. For the exact same thing. But let's say they have them in a pool, martial arts spells. Let's say that that pool actually makes them cheaper than the martial arts.(This won't happen, because no skills in pools, so everything would have to be bonuses to OCV, DCV, DC) In either case, that does not make sense. And, if the latter is true, it almost entirely invalidates the only use of the martial arts system and shows that powers can legitimately be used to emulate skills in pools, and, If the former is true, it shows that the discount is too large for the martial arts system because it gets a free pass on skills in pools. If it is equal, which it isn't, then it all makes sense, but otherwise, there's a disconnect. Where I find it all funny is that the one aspect of building that has the least granularity, martial arts, is really so far down the totem pole in regards to where to focus munchkin powers, and yet it's the second most tightly controlled, right after making sure everyone pays full points for every crafting skill they have. And, to top it off, it has the hint of munchkin by way of some absolute effects as well. If it didn't preclude building martial arts in other ways, it really wouldn't be a problem, it could be a quick way to build a martial artist, but not the only way. Players could choose, either build under this system, or from scratch.

My royalties are one beer. Unless you make billions, then I'm lawyering up. Sorry, it's a dog eat dog world.

Thanks for doing the work, I'm sure it's better than what I could do off of memory. While both of those still don't qualify as a counterpunch, in which one set up the opponent missing(so definitely a plus to DCV, which puts the trigger before the attack roll, and should, for balance reasons, probably require the skill roll to second-guess the opponent), the larger issue is, if we accept that, then why could a wizard not build a series of spells, ten of them plus "spirit of the swordsman"(a weapon element), and have it have the same effect and cost the exact same amount as the exact same game effect of martial arts? Further, if we're able to apply advantages, then they're powers anyway, so why can't the framework for the pool be defined and applied to other things than martial arts?

For example, if I wished to make a counter-punch that was actually a counter-punch, most likely it would require a trigger, that trigger should require an activation roll that was off of a skill, Read Opponent, at which point, DCV is raised and, if the initial punch misses, at the same time, the counter-puncher gets to roll for their counter-punch, possibly with a slight bonus to STR. I'm pretty sure there is no way to model that in the martial arts framework. The counter-punch in the martial arts is not a counter-punch by any definition of the term. There is a term for what its effect is, but its not counter-punch. This would not be a problem, if the martial arts system didn't essentially subsidize its own builds at the cost of making builds outside its framework prohibitively expensive because they can't be in pools(meaning the pools that have actual mechanics behind them), even when they are less absolute in their effect than a similar maneuver made with the martial arts rules.

Oh, I've used it as well. That said, you really can't make a whole lot of things with it that you should be able to. The case above you could. That does not make it the same system as the rest of Hero, it is quite different. And as far as points and their relation to the exact same things in the rest of the game, it does not jibe. If the same sort of thing were done for energy blasters, Hero players would murder people over it.

Yeah, but you did an actual build. That's worth way more cred on the Hero forums than timeliness. I hadn't even thought of that setup, it's nice!

Except, for example, the pricing of powers has been fairly consistent in relation to each other and stats, with adjustments over time for balance based on its effects in game on those things. Those powers have relations to other powers and stats that has driven some changes over time, and the only reason those changes weren't more is because it was a fairly well thought out, balanced system to begin with. And builds made from them are transparent in their costs. The pricing for the exact same effects as are in martial arts is suspiciously different once taken out of the martial arts. There is no explanation for this at all. Yes, there are rules for pricing martial arts, but they are at odds with the rest of the system in many ways. I tend to see the overall Hero system as a system: the martial arts has rules, yes, but I think it is not really a system, but a list one can buy from whose discount penalizes what would likely be better possible builds, especially builds that had more robust interaction with the rest of the system. And writing new martial arts is not the same system as making new powers. It's entirely different. And, for the most part, it is not particularly able to make new martial arts, just very, very similar things to what's already there. It has the flavor of granularity, without the actual granularity. Hidden cost structures is entirely different than anything else in Hero. When the same effect with the same advantages and limitations have a different cost, it must be in a pool. But it can't be, because it's a skill. Yet, for all intents and purposes, it is. Except we don't even know the rules of that pool, how discounts are figured(and I'm willing to bet that from move to move, you'd find the discounts are inconsistent compared with an actual build of that maneuver), and we can only guess how some of the absolute effects are being managed, and those maneuvers would probably be discounted far more than the others. I think that everyone is clear that the maneuvers are SOMEHOW discounted, but no one actually knows how. That's remarkably different than anything else in the system. It's actually weird to look at the setup after working on things in the main system- it's like, suddenly, someone said, you know what, I'm not mathing anymore today, damnit! I know! I'll make some tables. God I miss Rolemaster!

I still think that artists might be easier to entice into working on a project that a group was excited about that was, as far as the content, done, versus something that might someday be finished. If the content is done, then they will have confidence that, if they finish their art, then it will be out there, even if it isn't a big release. Otherwise, it's likely it will just be art that they have in their portfolio, but that never saw the light of day elsewhere.