TheDarkness

It would have to have, darnit, I'm forgetting the name of the advantage and I'm not near my book. It's often used for poison, for simulating a delayed return rate. So that velocity is added, up to a maximum. But the important part is something to hit at the end. I'm a little afraid of Cantriped now. That's a devious power. Like a gravity controlling one. Kind of cool thought. And here I was trying to stay on the light side.

The funny thing in Hero is, there's so many darn ways to keep it simple that it gets complex. I recall a thread about a power that made it appear that you were seven feet away from where you actually were. The simplest build was, as I recall, DCV. The simplest way to get that exact effect was invisibility and images(exact, as in, the most likely person to miss the real target and hit the false one is the person with the most accuracy, whereas DCV would have the opposite effect) Which one makes sense totally depends. If you are making a villain to contest a marksman hero, the second build will probably last longer, if we're using that as the villain's main power. If not, the first will be more cost effective. I try to look at the underlying game physics and look for the most appropriate way to build exactly what I'm trying to build, something that will behave like what I'm looking for.

Actually, for me, the line falls this way: by accepting that there is a susceptibility for all normal human sight(which is actually true), not one worth points(perhaps it's added points are balancing out free martial maneuvers, alongside limitations like small bladder, excessive morning eye sand, voice like Gordon Godfrey, skin tags, etc), that, when vision is adjusted to dark and a bright light is flashed into them there is a segment or two of limited vision, I don't have to do a build for every one with a normal level of light, whether due to power, equipment, or mirror, and they don't have to pay for something that is really of minor value that everyone else in the game should rightfully be able to do with any light source anyway. Basically, because the effect could be used against anyone with any light source under dark conditions with the same effect, it seems like a vulnerability more than a power at play. Or, one could interpret it as a free martial maneuver everyone has that has a seriously limited use, call it 'annoying cousin with a flashlight at night'. Plus, if one actually designed a light source power, accepting that as a rule then eradicates the most likely attempted munchkin effect.

I think the bigger issue is that the area of light really should be known. Otherwise, it's really easy to cheese people who are using stealth by over representing the light of a flashlight, things like that. And, really, it's a silly thing for a game to be largely unable to model that can model virtually anything else and have it fall inside a rational cost structure. And there's really nothing about the system that makes it unable to model it, except for the lack of a power that models it. As for the batspork, it's just like the batfork, sticky, food items only, OAF. The only difference between it and the batspork is it doesn't have the disadvantage 'doesn't work on peas'.

The other advantage of his is that KBR would not work against things making you prone through change environment. Which would include throws and sweeps.

Except light, in completely dark situations, has major tactical implications. A spoon, only if you are assaulting fruit loops.

After some thought, even though my initial thought on such absolute powers was against it, I can see where it has a fair use, assuming that it has a short time of the desired effect. Using stun, since it is quantifiable, we're talking about something the emulates actual stun, but only for the purchased time period, with none of the concurrent loss of stun. Either no stun is lost, or the stun is lost, but regained as soon as the power's duration ends. My main view on these things is basically, is the power fair to others, can they have resistance to it, and how. In the case of stun, however, it all seems like a buy-around to nullify the stun players actually bought. In which case, the resistance to it should probably be another stat. If it were a mental power or a magical one, appropriate stats could be applied. That way, it's fair. I'm thinking off the top of my head on this, so I may be missing some issues. It seems like a stun so temporary could be bought under something that limited the time of effect and then returned all the requisite stun after. Or, emulated the stun for the duration without any loss of stun(probably preferable). BUT, if the latter, it's a pretty overpowered thing if all it takes is one roll, and it either works or doesn't. Either that roll would have to be pretty tough, or the chance or resisting it available. I'm thinking it would probably be simpler to tie it to affecting a stat or more that tends to be lower for more people.

So, if you were building Pyramid Sam(whose secret identity is an Amway distributor), a man you just can't knock over, how would you build him?

I simply do not understand the point of twitter, and especially after seeing how often it is used to be horrible. I think some people assume just because they spend their time around horrible people online, that everyone chooses to.

I think the flash thing is not a property of a flashlight, but a weakness of human eyes, so I'd likely play it as such, as opposed to forcing a purchase of something that really isn't an attack property of the power.

I would add a limitation, only light. At least then it's not equivalent in cost to a 2d6 blast.

I would respond that it's merely an oversight, and there is absolutely no reason the system could not manage it if it was added in. It's light. And ordinary light. It has an AOE, cone, beam, and/or sphere, beyond that, there's not much else to it. It's not so much work because it's so hard, it's so much work because it keeps getting shoehorned in with things that aren't really suitable to the purpose. And the reason that there is nothing suitable to the purpose does not appear to have any particular reason other than it just wasn't added in, and the tendency to try to find ways to use what's there overtook the sense of saying, no, none of these powers model ordinary light in any sensible way, much less model the cost of it, given that it literally cannot directly harm anyone without a susceptibility to it. I'm going to say that any game designer who makes the power change environment but is afraid to make a power for emitting(but not controlling) real ordinary wavelengths of light due to the capacity of munchkins to mess with it has lost their sanity long ago. My money says it's just a case of not having been on the to-do list, and it's absence seems to have nothing to do with Hero being unable to model it and budget it, given a power that could do it.

I think, if there is absolute darkness, that power will not have the effect of a flashlight. Not positive on that, though.

Batman has absolutely no need(and, aside from exceptions to the normal characterization, generally didn't use) for legsweep vs. Hulk. Quite frankly, let's give him a 25 STR. If he buys 20 STR for legsweep only, okay, maybe 10 points, but since he has a ton of other moves, it's in a pool, so not even that. He effectively has 45 STR for a legsweep, 25 of which is also regular damage. Yes, there is no 'legsweep anyone automatically' option to this, it doesn't model the +1d6 to the current legsweep, but it has granularity. The current setup actually punishes any such builds by magically discounting the martial arts, allowing skills in its pools while forbidding it in all other pools, and enforcing an interpretation of martial arts that, while having some excellent ideas, also has some issues and thus prevents builds that would, frankly, add a lot to game play.

Leg Sweep Man would NOT be some schmoe, he would be a guy who paid points for being able to leg sweep anyone. Flash is also an example that doesn't fit, as it also is a power you can point per point buy defense against. Further, Leg Sweep man, using the absolute form of legsweep, would only require OCV for legsweep only, maybe skill levels if he felt like it, and he most certainly would not be a schmoe, even though he would have a horrible name. Hell, give him higher speed for legsweep only, higher STR for legsweep only, it's a highly munchkinable thing because it's not tied to anything anyone can reduce, it's absolute, all he needs to do is roll his OCV vs. OCV and you are automatically prone. A more appropriate equivalent would be a mental attack that, with only a success on MCV VS. MCV automatically took away a portion of mental actions available to an opponent, irrespective of defense. How much would that cost? I'm really not aware of many powers that a simple attack roll success allows absolute success on results against another character. I understand the desire for it, but making it the default while totally hiding the cost structure MAKES any legitimate build expensive in comparison, and precludes builds that, frankly, would make more options available that take advantage of the heart of the Hero system. The fact is, any schmoe CAN leg sweep the hulk. AND any build using 'change environment' for making someone prone is from the gate way more complicated than a build using the knockdown rules. You are correct about the point value, which is why the martial arts system is clearly a pool with largely undefined rules that somehow allow skills to be part of it(points required to just have the pool? Check. Needs a number of slots? Check. Clearly discounted price on all slots? Check). A sweep on its own built using knockdown, yes, it will be too expensive to make that one move practical*, but in a pool, given that it's already just STR with a limitation(for knockdown only) AND in a pool, it makes an effect that has some relation to the points of the target, isn't a clear attempt to bypass the most appropriate application(which Hero, in most other cases, warns against), and has the granularity of Hero preserved, instead of having the 'flavor' of that granularity, but not the meat of it. On top of it, that cost is based on what effect you want. If you want to sweep the Hulk, it SHOULD cost more than sweeping a Hydra agent. If you just want to sweep thugs and skilled, but non-powered enemies, it should also cost less than sweeping the Hulk. If you want to magically sweep people irrespective of strength, then you can easily do it toward alternate defense, and since that would also be in a pool, a pool that likely has higher value spells in it, the cost, again, is mitigated. The ONLY reason that this is prohibitive is because 1) The desire for absolute effects for certain balance issues, of which, leg sweep is far less relevant than, say, block, for this reason, and 2) No skills in pools, except, apparently, the martial arts 'pool'. *further, I think you'll find that, outside of the martial arts system currently in use, almost any of those maneuvers should technically be quite a bit more costly

This is a good summation. KC has one of the few major WWI memorials in the U.S. for a reason. The Liberty Memorial(coincidentally, it would be a great setting for a comic book fight). It's actually quite dark a memorial, as far as it's theme and layout. It feels more than a little like a combination of a bunker and a tomb inside it.

Except the cost of making light is also the cost of light that causes minor damage, which is not paying for the game effect they give, but paying for a glitch.

I stand corrected!

Here's my thought on this. For damaging powers, the defining point of the build is STUN, Body, PD/ED. This is obviously sensible, since that's what is being affected. HA, Blast, KA, all are built around this and their costs are based around the amount they can affect the first two and how(HA, KA). This has several merits. Two of the biggest are, first, they are well defined and simple, but versatile. The second is that they do not do a buy-around on OTHER PEOPLE'S expenditures. If you want to overcome a high PD, you will need to pay for it. Likewise, if you want to avoid extra damage, you will have to pay for damage reduction or what have you. Fairly strong balance. Now, an effect that puts people on the ground already exists. Knockdown, and it fits in the same balanced framework as all of the above. Yet, that is not used for any powers that cause knockdown, because of the desire for automatic knockdown. Now, if I want automatic kill, or automatic mind control, I have to pay for it in amounts that absolutely no one will be able to resist. Why should making someone prone get a buy-around? Why shouldn't it be "pay for the amount you want, and get the success you paid for when compared with what the other guy paid for"? Should some schmoe be able to leg sweep the Hulk?

Since it's a focus, it has body, and therefore, can be used to strike with. If it was a big cop flashlight(or, like my old friend's that he'd take campling, 'bearkiller'), I would totally pay for the club property. For the normal flashlight that people often have in their drawer, I'm not sure I would count on hitting anyone with one of those more than once before it broke. As for temporarily blinding, I would argue that, for humans, if in a very dark place for a very long time, and a bright light is flashed in their eyes, their being made blind is the property of a vulnerability, NOT a property of light. So I would allow it at sensible game times. Sometimes, the game physics, not the build physics, are the right answer to the build.

Yes, falling should not require such a funky power to build. I've been working with making a master list of maneuvers for martial arts in pools, and I'm refusing to use change environment- knockdown should be the basis. Falling down is something normally codified in a games combat rules or other rules, and things that make people knocked down are based off of this. I'm basically building throws, trips, and sweeps as mostly STR for knockdown only. I haven't looked at the cost for doing it with change environment. I know there are often many ways to do a thing. BUT, I also know that the rules are quite clear about using a different power to save cost when there is an exact thing intended to do exactly what one is trying to do, but costs more. It seems odd to me that change environment is in any way an allowable choice for how to make people fall down. Or that Images, a power that involves (imaginary) light that one actually controls with fine detail is in any way the basis for cost of (real)light one has no control over once it is emitted.

Clever!

I've been working on designing a point based game for my own uses(no plan to try marketing it, it's a fun hobby), which is part of the reason I'm taking part in a lot of the conversations about the sticking points in the Hero system, so I can see common pitfalls and where the solutions come from. I've decided on disadvantages as a percentage of starting points. Say the character is 100 pts.(just picking a simple number). Those points are all spent on the character, but the section for disadvantages automatically gets an amount equal to 30% of that value. It must be bought down to zero through limitations on powers, disadvantages, etc(limits on powers, in what I'm working on, comes from that pool, and does not affect the actual cost of a power). That said, I don't really have a problem with Champions way of doing it, either. Munchkins will find a way no matter what. I think the points from disadvantages, though not insubstantial, is often dwarfed by savings from limitations that are cheesy, but legal, because making them not RAW would affect people who have legitimate uses for them.

Other games have such people. The issue is that Hero is down to just those people. I think there are solutions, but they all are predicated on finding ways to draw new people, and that is going to take new products aimed towards those people, which means less daunting products that set them up to play the game quickly. [Plus, your posts are always interesting, but I understand wanting to take a break or stop.]

I'd be surprised if it was. Used to live near there in high school, often went to a comic book store near there as well, but that was, oh, 1985. Ediner was a 50s style diner, had good malts. There was also a place near there, I want to say on Hennepin(I think the comic book store was also there) that had fantastic croissants. Anyway, I like the idea for the boat scenario, that sounds like it would have been a fun challenge.