Brian Stanfield

2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Maybe someone could reach out to Mark Rein-Hagen and ask him how he did it.

The Anne Rice novels clearly helped prepare the way for popular vampire media. I'm not sure you can reproduce that. The whole goth-punk thing in the '80s and '90s was prevalent as well. I'm not sure we have any sort of equivalent sub-cultural movement these days, unless someone wants to invent Hipster: The Annoyance or something like that. Social Justice Warriors at least sounds like it could be fun, but in reality it would probably be a crappy game. 

What other socio-cultural currents are there today? Lots of animé, but there are already plenty of games out there, including a failed version by HERO. There are an abundance of independent games that capture snippets (Kids on Bikes, for instance, recreating Stranger Things), but tastes move at such a faster clip today I'm not sure they can be sustained. There were so many marketable franchises, and DOJ just didn't capitalize on them: the Marvel Universe, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings (hellloooo, MERP reboot anyone? I guess not . . .), or even something like the James Bond reboots or John Wick. I understand licensing is a mess, but a little bit of exposure could go a long way. They don't even have to be directly licensed. Vampire: The Masquerade capitalized on Anne Rice without being Anne Rice: The Game. Some creativity here would be great. 

Monster Hunter International was a great attempt at capitalizing on some popular fiction, but they ended out on the wrong side of public opinion when this guy started spouting off about his politics. I was at Origins last year and the author, Larry Correia, was supposed to make an appearance but had to cancel because of a bomb threat! People are still angry at this guy, years later. Jason Walters won't even utter the name of the game anymore. I think maybe this left a sour taste in DOJ's mouth. But I just saw that Savage Worlds has a Kickstarter for their own version of MHI, so clearly there's still interest in the franchise. Looks like DOJ simply dropped the ball, yet again, on something that has real potential but no support. 

I think Champions Now is the closest we get to capitalizing on the indie game phenomenon, and it just doesn't mix with any other game in the HERO System. DOJ did some great work expanding the HERO System in 5th and 6th with some top notch genre books, but as my friend said when I lent him my copy of Fantasy HERO 6e: "Cool book. Where are the rules?" Plenty of ideas for games, but no actual games out there. As far as an encyclopedia for experienced HERO gamers, 5e/6e are phenomenal! But what about new gamers? It's like in the midst of cataloging its existing material, DOJ forgot that they had to attract new gamers to sustain itself. Selling a book, only to tell people that they need to buy two other rule books (that are out of print) in order to play the first book, is just silly.

On 2/18/2020 at 8:26 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

We, the game designer, decide not to include animal handling skills, animal stats, etc. and a player wants an attack falcon?  Just like every other game, you either suck it up (not in the rules), whine to the designers that we need an "animals" sourcebook to cover this stuff, or make your own.  Unlike other games, you have the option to buy the game designer's toolkit and build it in accordance with the game system's rules and assumptions.

The ideal I have in mind is to use a game like this as an incentive for players to want to buy the toolkit and fiddle with it themselves. This is basically what we did back in the '80s (right, @Duke Bushido?) and is not a new concept, or even a difficult one to grasp. We can go to the HERO store, for example, and buy HERO Designer, but for people who are really curious, they have the option to buy the source code for HD and fiddle with it themselves. Same concept: HERO System is the source code and programming language. The game is the consumer-side interface.

On 2/18/2020 at 8:26 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Superpowers might be fixed, or variable in power.  Maybe we use the USPD model and they come in different power levels, but not "buy 1d6 for x points", or maybe they are fully scalable.  Maybe some superpowers don't exist in our game - say, no mental powers.  Perhaps the only source of powers is an x-gene.  Nope, no aliens or "bitten by a radioactive kangarooo" or empowered by ancient mythological deities.  That is not part of this game.

I may have to create an entire game with nothing but heroes bitten by kangaroos. . . .

The supers genre is a bit more complex to figure out, at least for me. People have so many ideas of what they want to do, it seems a hard sell to create a game with only some of the powers included. I know that's not exactly what you mean, but by the time you create several kind of Blast options (AoE, NND, Indirect, or whatever variations), you may as well simply use the entire Powers list and expect people to figure it out. I think maybe this is the PhD of HERO System gaming. I think this is peculiar only to the supers genre though. 

I think it fits really well for Fantasy HERO though, with specific spell lists and such. People are already "trained" to use spell lists, magical items lists, special skill lists, and stuff like that from D&D or whatever else game they came from. 

In each case though, if this were to be the model for supers or fantasy, I think maybe they'd have to start with a setting in order to explain and understand the "settings" for the Powers in the game. We don't have to reveal the builds, but we do have to explain why wizards can't use armor, or why there are two spell systems (arcane and divine, for instance), or whatever else. These decisions imply a setting, and half the setting work is already done by the time these decisions are made. Again, I think it works less well for supers, but maybe it's still workable. 

Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

4 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

I would agree that the 4e HSR expresses a complete set of game mechanics. But it isn't a complete game in and of itself because the reader still has to do all the work of creating a setting, creating a crisis or adventure hook, creating all the antagonists, creatures, people and places, etc. For those rare few left today with the time, experience, and talent for all that world-building, they only need the mechanics/toolkit. They don't need the HERO System to provide them with an actual game to play; they are essentially going to create that themselves. But most first-timers today aren't going to do that. The brand needs to recognize that fact and do a lot of that work for them, freeing the players up to merely tweak and adjust to taste and then get on with the business of playing out the quests/missions/etc.

Yup, and Hall of Champions just isn't going to cut it either. It's a great idea, but it really ought to include adventures as it's focus. And it is not going to allow for any new games coming out. My idea for Adventure HERO wouldn't be allowed, I don't believe. I think I'd need to find another publisher to do it, since DOJ just can't foster new games anymore. 

Like I said, I don't want to rehash the edition wars thread. But if 3e was the first time they started marketing the "HERO System," (copyright 1984), then the two games I keep discussing are examples of how the "system" could be pared down to genre specific games. That was their whole point in the first place. As I point out in the original post, things have gotten very widespread in terms of the types of books presented, but what is not included nowadays are "complete games" that stand alone. Yes, the marketing says CC and FHC are "complete" games, but as I also tried to show in the original post, they are far from "complete" and without need for any other product. 

37 minutes ago, Beast said:

Hero system is a medium to high crunch system
for me I had 10 yrs of DnD, Traveller, RuneQuest under my belt before Champions in 1985
I don't expect this to be a first RPG for a group unless 1 has played before for a little bit
Basic Hero I could see being a beginner game(limit how many advantages and disadvantages to 2(2xa, 2xd 1xa-1xd, etc)
But these are GM setting dials

By the way, I'm really in agreement with you on much of what you're saying. It's really not all that hard, but HERO System is not teachable en toto. It has to be absorbed over time. It's no accident that most of the people who aspire to system mastery, the folks on these forums, have been playing for decades.

My concern is that HERO System is going to die out, and DOJ is not helping prevent that because they won't offer anything like they used to in terms of full, self-contained games. Hall of Champions is a great idea, for people who already know the system. It's not going to bring in anyone new because it already assumes system mastery.

11 minutes ago, Beast said:

Here I would say you are wrong as 4th ed made all the rules the same just and gave power levels
During 5th ed we got Dark Champions and the Ultimate Skill to add more gun porn/weapons and more crunch to skills

"analysis paralysis" is gone when you set the power level and the genre pretty much gives you that
you are way over thinking this
more that is needed is a checklist of what people want to play
something the GM hands out and everybody marks what they want
GM tallies up what the players want and goes from there

I'm not so sure of that. I gave a copy of 6e Basic to all my players so we could play a Pulp HERO game, and it prepared them for absolutely nothing for the game. First, they didn't really read the rules because once they hit the Powers section, they just gave up trying to understand how it works. Sure, experienced HERO players would have no problem, but my player who wanted to play a private eye with WWI experience in small arms and counterintelligence, couldn't figure out how to even begin to present it in game terms. Sure, I could refer him to at least 3 other books (Pulp HERO, Equipment guide, Hudson City), but those are non-committal to which rules apply to a game as well.

I've had to create everything for the game from scratch, which is fine because I've got the experience to do it. But the whole point of this thread is about how nice it would be if there was one single book that had all the relevant information in it. Yes, 4e, 5e, and 6e all offer toolboxes, but that means absolutely nothing to inexperienced players. I sat in a session at Origins with some guys who wanted to learn the HERO System, and they came out of the 4 hour session having learned nothing other than that you probably shouldn't be playing it if you don't already know how to play it. And that, in a nutshell, is the problem I'm trying to address. Justice, Inc. and Danger International were complete games, and I didn't need anything else to learn them or play them. The toolbox system is great for folks who like to fiddle and build their own games. It's genius at that! But it's not a complete game, and it doesn't help anybody new learn the game.

4 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

those are actually _third_ edition games.

Yeah, I wondered about that when I wrote it. I didn't check the dates, so bad on me.

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Yep.  That had no purpose other than to entertain you, Brian.  

 

I hope you enjoyed it.  

Yup, always.

6 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I've got to level with you:  I would think, personally, that Supers or Fantasy would be the _easiest_ to create a "complete" game for, simply because, as others have pointed out, there is so much social tradition and social consciousness behind them: we have a cultural awareness of, if you will, "what superheroes are" and what their world looks like.  Seriously:  take a survey.  Stand around at a busy mall---

Other than the fact that malls aren't busy anymore, I think that more people are familiar with, say, action movies than any other genre out there. Some people hear "fantasy" and think I'm being kinky. Some people hear "comic books" and think I'm a geek (well, not that I'm not). Most people hear "action movie" and they know exactly what you mean, and probably have their own favorite franchise. I mean, Rambo just got re-released for godsake! 

As for ease, I can't think of anything harder to introduce than Powers. Now if you mean pre-build powers, or spells, or whatever, I can see that. But nothing DOJ ever offers that has Champions or Fantasy HERO in the name will ever exclude the Powers rules. So ay new game would be no different than what's already been done. This is why I was wondering if maybe the setting books would be better ways to present those two genres as complete games, with isolated and unique decisions particular to their settings. The books would be a little longer, but they would indeed be complete at that point.

1 minute ago, Beast said:

then you are looking at a 600+ page book that only a 1/3 of it will be for the players
Look at MHI a 60$ book that has everything you need for an MHI setting and rules, but has small amounts of setting and background in 304 pages for a book series that is now 10 or so books and was 5 when it came out

MHI is a good example of what I'm talking about: it's a complete game where all the decisions have been made, the setting has been written, and it is very clear to all involved what the game is about. I'm not exactly sure if you're offering it as a counterpoint because I'm not sure where you're getting 600 pages from. If you scroll back a bit you'll see my breakdown of the two books I just mentioned, and they are each well under 300 pages. Just about the same as MHI. 

6 minutes ago, Beast said:

the Champions setting book has all the dials set and the villain books are the filler
there will always be players and GM's who want to build there own
pretty much every GM I have played with over the past 34 yrs has made the universe theirs using some, not even a majority of the Champions universe
the first dial everybody sets is what genre do they want to play
setting what power level is next
these are pretty simple dials to set

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you're being a bit vague. Champions is a genre book, and as DukeBushido pointed out on the first page of this thread, there are a dozen setting books. Again, I'm not sure which you're talking about. There are zero decisions made in Champions, except for the genre itself, but even that is wide open with no real decisions made. Each setting book makes some decisions, but not very many. Usually only a history is given and some backstory, but not much in terms of what is expected of the PCs. There's way too much for the GM to decide before session 0 even begins. 

Similarly, Fantasy HERO is extremely vague, without even a standard magic system offered. Fantasy HERO Complete is better, but it doesn't offer a setting, so there is still the need for the GM to make a whole lot of decisions and do a whole lot of work to even be able to play. The settings for 6e may be workable, but they tend to be information overload for anyone learning them. Go look at the Turakian Age thread for an example of what I mean.

Again, I agree that MHI is a better example of what I'm discussing in this thread. What you are bringing up probably fits better in a different discussion.

12 minutes ago, Beast said:

Complete for me is just the rules and a few examples(Starburst,Randle Irons,etc)
CC,FHC do this for me as I'm really just a PC not a GM and the added stuff is wasted(I do buy villain, setting, and gear books for my collection and for examples to point to GMs  what Hero say are legal to them
adding settings may be something they may or may not need or want(so why make the book huge if you don't want that?)
spreading things out adds content for those who want it and makes the cost spread out

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm avoiding Champions and Fantasy HERO in this particular thread. I think those vary too much by setting, and so there can't possibly be one single "complete" book in the sense that I'm talking about here. The biggest problem for Fantasy HERO 6e, for example, is that is was a genre book that offered so many options, and opened so many possibilities, that there was no single game presented but rather a toolbox for building a dozen fantasy games! Champions may be even more varied. These require very, very experienced GMs to make the decisions and trim the rules down to one game. 

16 minutes ago, Beast said:

Has anybody put out a COMPLETE game and setting in 1 book that was at least medium crunch?
and IF they did how long did they last w/o support (we are  saying COMPLETE)
putting all the info for 1 setting in 1 book makes it a 1 off for the producer  and no future profit

The two examples I've given Danger International and the best of them all, Justice, Inc., are 2e games. They had everything needed in one book (or in the JI instance, one box) and could be played easily in a weekend if everyone set their minds to it. Unfortunately there has been no support for them in, say, 30 years!

Which is why I'm using them as the model for a new game with all the rules complete in one book, with all the other stuff needed to play, including adventures. These are great examples for a new "game template" because they eliminate all the myriad options of Champions and Fantasy HERO. The idea is to eliminate analysis paralysis for folks learning the game, but maintaining the core rules (other than Powers) so that the game is sufficiently sophisticated, keeping its HERO System quality.

35 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

This is a very good point, and you're probably at least 90% right.  As much as I would like to attract gamers to HERO as their first RPG, it may always be a small minority of the RPGers.  I know of one person who has played Champions, but never played D&D (or any other RPG).  But he's the exception.  I'm certainly not an exception.

 

So maybe the selling method is more along the lines of, "You've tried the rest.  Now try the Best!"

20 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I would caveat that.  HERO is probably not for a group where NOONE has played TTRPGs before.  Given a good GM with HERO experience, willing to put in some groundwork, it is no worse than any other game.

 

Doc

These are both great reasons to offer a "complete game" (I wish I could find a different term) built with the HERO System. If it's presented correctly, with all the dials set and the complicated decisions made, then given a decent GM anyone should be able to enjoy the game, new and experienced alike. Plenty of room for expansion with the tool box, but no need to. This is also a good way to encourage GMs to spend more time designing adventures rather than world-building and dial spinning and such. A complete game (in this case, a modern era action movie genre) will take care of so many of the settings that the GM won't have to do all that work. No Powers are needed, and a setting is mostly tacitly assumed to be our world. 

With much less prep time, a straightforward game system can be presented in a digestible form for beginners, a rich game experience can be presented for experienced players, and an interface with the HERO tool box can be presented for experienced HERO players. It's a win/win/win, at least the way I'm imagining it.

1 hour ago, Beast said:

for me 4th ed Hero system rule is a complete game book
just pick a genre and set the dials

This is exactly what we (as a group discussion) are trying to avoid. It's not a "complete game book," it's a "complete tool box" for creating games. There are already plenty of tool box editions for building games, but no actual games. Even Champions isn't a game, it's a genre with a collection of settings, none of which actually set the dials themselves, and expect the players to do all the work. That's great for experienced HERO players, but a nightmare for anyone else. The idea is that a "complete game" will have set all the dials and made all the decisions so that a player can pick up the game and start playing without having to make the myriad decisions that probably don't make sense anyway without total system mastery.

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It may be an interesting exercise to see just what can be cropped down.  Action Hero probably has armor piercing bullets or knives.  Does it have adjustment powers?  An adrenaline injection, venoms designed as drains (we'll have spiders, snakes and scorpions in our purview, won't we?).  Darkness (smoke grenades), Entangle (handcuffs), Flash (flash bangs; tear gas), NND/AVLD (gas again; taser), area effect (gas yet again, flamethrower).  We're not into any weird talents yet.  Do we have a "truth serum"?  Brainwashing?  Mental powers (or transform).  Flight (no one can have a falcon?), leaping, running, swimming. 

These are all good points, but easily presented in simple form, just like weapons are. Give the damage, and any odd effects relevant to it. For example, a smoke grenade would have a thrown range based on STR, an 8m circular range of -3 to sight PER for 3 turns. Everything else would be extraneous. Several varieties could be included, just like a list of standard favorite movie firearms, and a short list of different ammunition, etc. These lists could get long, of course, but we don't need to include rules for building them, just the final product without all the information crammed in. Even 10 pages of lists is not really a design flaw, or all that annoying for the reader. These were always the things that made me feel like I was playing a game with lots of possibilities, but without the analysis paralysis of the entire tool box. I have plenty of evidence of my players asking me for lists of weapons and equipment before they even think of doing anything else in character creation. I started an entire thread in the Fantasy HERO forum on this issue when a friend of mine just quit the game because the equipment lists were virtually hidden, and there were no spell lists! So, several pages in the Resource Guide part of the book seems like a great idea.

My thinking is that lists are fun and quick for playing the game right away. They may not be completely satisfying (what? no muzzle-loaded .50 black powder muskets?), but they serve their purpose. A couple of things can be offered here:

• Since most firearms fall within a fairly small range as far as stats go, simply offer the players the option of renaming an equivalent weapon to whatever they want to call it, and keep the game effects the same. 

The idea is to reel it in and pare the game down as much as possible. Yeah, no attack falcons in this game, but there's a way for you to design it yourself if you get the tool box.

15 minutes ago, zslane said:

Well, we won't if we never try. And by "we" I mean someone with the time, resources, and talent (or access to the talent) to capture that lightning in a bottle. As I've said countless times before, it certainly won't be easy, but it is necessary.

Well, let's consider this a litmus test for whether someone (for instance me) would even want to spend the time and resources to do this. I agree, however, that it is necessary.

17 minutes ago, zslane said:

Another very unpopular opinion of mine is that the HERO System is not a good system for people who have never played TTRPGs before. It should not try to become a gateway game for that demographic. It is, always has been, and should remain the game system you graduate to after you've tried something simpler, more accessible, and ultimately less satisfying (I'm looking at you D&D). The HERO System has enough to do just being a deeper, more sophisticated, superior system. It shouldn't be burdened with the additional responsibility of teaching TTRPG fundamentals to complete newbies, and getting diluted dramatically in the process. That's why I would not be so eager to put any time/resources into some kind of (misguided) "Starter Set" version of the game.

I used to push for something like a "starter set," but I don't think it means for me what it means for you. There seem to be several ideas of it floating around. Regardless, I very much agree that HERO System is like graduate school for TTRPGs. It shouldn't shy away from that. I feel, however, that a non-super and non-magical version of the game such as I'm toying with here could offer a midway point between a high school diploma and a PhD in TTRPGdom. The game, including character creation, just isn't that hard when you don't have to worry about the Powers and Modifiers. All the other rules that are compounded by interpreting the Powers are also eliminated. I'm not looking to chop things down until it's unrecognizable as HERO System, merely to precisely slice things away until I'm left with exactly what is needed to play this particular genre. It won't necessarily work with supers or with fantasy. But it could be a good entry-level (not basic) game.

My goal isn't to create a starter set, or a generic display of what HERO System can do. I want to actually make a full game (complete game?) that could appeal to existing players, but also be less daunting to new players, which I also think is essential for the survival of HERO System. 

On 2/15/2020 at 9:53 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Here, I disagree.  The goal is a GAME, not a bunch of dials you can set and knobs you can twist to design your own game.  It needs some setting/background, and an adventure, right out of the box.  Is that a spies, cops, detectives or mercenaries adventure?  Will it be designed around quasi-realistic cops/soldiers or Bruce Lee and John Wick?  It does not matter which one you pick, but it definitely matters that we pick one.  That sets the parameters of our game.

That is one of the questions I posed earlier: how far do we cast the net? It would obviously (I think) be silly to have a separate game for each possible variation, since they're all versions of Skills + small arms combat. Bruce Lee is an edge case, but John Wick is clearly over the moon, where James Bond is already waiting. But that doesn't mean the game can't include all these possible variations; we just need to be clear on what their parameters are. 

I don't think it's too much trouble to have a couple of different skills lists for the different variations, perhaps each one building on the previous one, only offering more outlandish options. I guess we could simply refer players to Steve Long's Gun Fu document, but that is what I'm trying to avoid: multiple documents. Rather than offering two, three, or five books to cover one genre, and I think these really are all one genre, just with varying degrees of suspension of disbelief mixed with adrenaline. I think the Sourcebook (as it's called in Danger International) is potentially the place to offer these variations. I'm not sold on that idea yet though. It could be different Skills lists, and then a section like in Justice, Inc. that covers Weird Talents (i.e. gun fu, super genius abilities, etc.). 

On 2/15/2020 at 9:53 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Crop the setting down to what we need for the adventures.  Link the adventures.  They need to be usable for our one game, not mutually exclusive examples where one sends cops out to investigate a crime in a modern city, a second features mercenaries infiltrating an enemy base to capture a bioweapon, and a third sends out FBI agents to investigate reports of disappearances in a town called Innsmouth.

 

Could we later write these other games?  Sure.  They don't even have to be separate games - they can provide more source material for their specific game, expanding on what we had in Action Hero.  Now, that may mean this is the Action Hero line, and we need to name our individual games in a manner more indicative of their nature.

I see what you mean here. I don like the idea of the linked adventures, as it helps develop the idea of a campaign over many sessions. But for now I'm trying to avoid having to depend on writing more source material for the game at a later date . . . mostly because that later material never seems to get much in the way of support. I'd like to get it all in under one cover if possible. But the adventures don't have to be too terribly long, either, so there's potentially room for a string of related adventures for maybe to or three sub-genres. But really, I think if we had to narrow it down to just one, a spy adventure would cover all the bases (investigation, small arms combat, globetrotting, perhaps even a special villain with some of the special abilities outlined in the Weird Talents section (I don' have a better name for the gun fu stuff yet).

As for setting, I'm in agreement with you on this: it's the world right out your own front door, and that you see on the news every day. It's fairly intuitive, and I trust any GM to be able to come up with any half-baked political thriller in fairly short order. What I think is essential, though, is trying to avoid different settings that don't integrate with each other. I don't want 5 games with 5 similar settings. I want one game in which they all share the same setting. I think that Dark Champions is very close to the ideal here, and Hudson City is a great setting for it. But I'd like to avoid the need for a particular city setting, as it begs the need for lots of other settings as well.

As far as ongoing support goes, I think if the game is complete enough, any ongoing adventures could be offered through the Hall of Champions (at least for the time being).

@Doc Democracy
I’m kinda falling in love with this idea. . . a lot!

14 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Fair enough.  But judging by all the Fantasy Hero editions I've seen, they do seem to all make an effort to conform to many of that other system's concepts, as if always trying to emulate it for the people that can't get out of that box.

Oh my goodness, on that I have to agree. Now I see your point. That stuff irks me! I know the whole “class” system in D&D came from wargaming with different unit types, and so on. I just don’t know why it became standard, other than through sheer force of habit, and owning a huge RPG market share. 

I see that everyone has been focusing on the genres that are more complex (supers) and perhaps depend more on settings than other genres (fantasy). I'm really thinking more along the lines of system-agnostic games. However, I'd like to bring up a couple of setting issues.

First, there is a glut of settings for both of these genres. (See Duke's list above!) More settings, or more developed settings, probably aren't going to solve any problems. They may actually be causing more problems if we look at it in terms of how they may be competing with each other for more eyeballs among an already dwindling pool of players. Now I'm all for variety, and I'm not particularly sold on any one particular setting in either of these genres. The only setting I've ever really enjoyed and used is Hudson City, since it is versatile enough for different genres. And it happens to have an excellent large scale map which makes it even more useful! This goes back to the issue of support for what settings are already there: in particular, there is almost none. This ought to change, although it is highly unlikely it won't, which is a shame. 

Be that as it may, variety is actually a good sign if the settings are being used. Any more, however, they just look like a lot of experiments that didn't work out and got left behind. This may be more cynical than necessary, but just look at the list!

So as far as a "complete" or "standalone" game goes, would it make more sense for each of those settings to be an independent game? I brought this up before, but let's look at it a little more. Someone earlier mentioned that Action HERO is not a genre, but rather a whole array of genres and so is too vast for a single game (sorry, I'm too lazy to go back and find who said it). This is actually a good point, but on the other hand, does it really make sense to have a dozen individual games that are so similar? Wouldn't they cannibalize each other as the settings already do? I mean, Super-Spy HERO, Secret Agent HERO, Private Eye HERO (dare I say Dick HERO???), Cop on the Beat HERO, Police Detective HERO, Small Arms HERO, Mercenary HERO, Recon HERO, (by the way, go look up the old Paladium game Recon if you'd like to see an extremely simple and effective "complete" game), and, well, you get the point.

Doesn't it make more sense to create one game with a pool of all the similar equipment and other builds in a single central location, and allow each player to have a take on which to focus on? Really, that's only a matter of perhaps several different kinds of lists, but not that much more. Or just let templates take care of the differences, and let the GM embellish from there. After all, the whole point is to have a game that players can open up, crank out a character with the least amount of trouble (at least to begin with), and then get going. We don't need to get pedantic about explaining all the nuanced differences between James Bond and Jason Bourne. Seriously! Trust the GM and players to figure it out in the tone they choose.

There is, however, perhaps a really good model on the above approach that I brought up before (I think in response to Doc Democracy's post?). What if each setting for the more complex genres (supers & fantasy) were actually self-contained games? Rather than say "Here's Champions Complete, now go find a setting and play," we say "Here's Vibora Bay, and here are all the rules that apply to this game, and all the builds and power levels and other assumptions in how the rules apply, and here's some background on all the key features of this game world." This way it's still just one game book, not two or maybe three, depending on what else you decide that you need.

As it stands now, we assume that players have the core book (Champions Complete, or simply 6e1 & 6e2, but Champions alone does nobody any good here for actual play), and then proceed to very tightly define what the parameters are for this particular setting, who's in it, where it is. The problem is that DOJ seems to be pushing Champions Complete rather than the full tool box of 6e1/2, which I think is a mistake. There are enough minor differences between the two rule sets that it makes it a little more of a problem to define how a setting works if we don't have a commonly assumed rule set. 

Champions Complete, or Fantasy HERO Complete would better be imagined as their own independent games with their own unique game worlds. They should then include specific setting information and present the rules as they apply to their specific settings. Want to fiddle with those settings? No problem, but you'll have to go to the tool box to do that. But this is starting to get too confusing, I think, or at least a little too vague since the Complete books are imagined to be the rules for games, not the games themselves. At least I think that's the case . . . the problem is that they are treated a little bit too much as games in themselves, but then don't really commit to any one setting or anything, and then don't offer any support for any of the settings to go with the so-called games. I don't know, now I'm just chasing my tail, which I think is the whole point here: are we being setting neutral? Are the settings themselves too neutral in their treatment of the rules? The whole system seems to be celebrating neutrality without committing even when they're appearing to commit . . . .

So why not just re-present each setting as its own game? Is this just crazy? Or is this maybe what the original intent was with the core rule books and genre books (i.e. use them as the core rules sources, and then let the settings define the differences)? There seems to be some merit to this approach, which would also solve some problems of how HERO System appears a bit too sterilized, a complaint which comes up quite a bit, and I'm just now starting to appreciate.

How far do we push this? There is a potential for too many games which overlap too many ways. Do we need 15 different settings, each presented as an independent game which presents the rules all over again? Or is it better to just keep it as it is: core rules, and 15 different settings that only vaguely present themselves as unique games?

I'm curious what y'all, who have thought about these things for years, have to say about these different models.

8 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

And it would also be nice to get to new role-players first, rather than as refugees from that other system.  If we can get people so understand the flexibility of the HERO System, and see the the whole spectrum of role-playing possibilities, instead of having their ideas all focused into the narrow box of that other system. 

I don't know. Does it really matter where they come from, as long as we get new players? Refugees may actually have a deeper appreciation of the options if they're coming from a system that didn't give them the flexibility they wanted. A brand-spanking new role player may never have considered the possibilities and so may not venture as far "out of the box" as someone who's been to the dark corners of that box and found it lacking.

Regardless, I just want new players! Bring 'em on!

44 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

There is also the point that if you do an excellent job of an online blurb that everyone can watch, you might get those interested to pick up HERO first.  Rather than being in a $50 book...

I'm starting to see your point here. I wasn't totally seeing it at first, but I sort of wrote it into my last post. Advertising in a world of new media seems like it could be done in short blurbs tacked to the beginnings of online actual play videos or podcasts, and things like that. DOJ needs to get a lot more clever on how to get the information "out there," and we see the models that are being used already. It may be debatable whether they work (let's face it, we all click on the "skip this ad" as soon as possible), but even a little bit of air time could lead to more of an audience. 

So let me go back to my original idea: resuscitate Danger International, but in a more updated manner that can catch the modern eye. Although I love that title, it really does have an '80s feel to it. In the global, multinational, and online world today, throwing "international" into the title doesn't carry the same feel that it once did. I like whoever once suggested Action HERO. Everyone knows what that means, and it really captures the cinematic quality of the game. The blurb on the back cover: Ever wanted to be an Action HERO, but were too afraid to try? Now you can, and still get home in time for your regular job! (ok, it's cheesy, but you get the idea)

Anyway, let's look at how it was originally presented. It follows the format of Justice, Inc. pretty closely: 39 pages of character creation, although it throws Package Deals on page 127 with only a passing comment on page 11 that they come "later" in the book. This would be a bit confounding for a new player, but I'll move on. The first few pages give a great overview of the character sheet and briefly explains how the game is played in the broadest terms possible so that Character Creation will at least have some context.

The game rules run from 41-95. Very simple! Why? Because there are no rules for Powers and Modifiers. This is the primary reason why I want to focus on this particular game. It can be a model for other games to build on. One of my quibbles with this section is that there are random weapons lists in the Combat section, but there are other equipment lists later in the book. I'd ideally like to see them all together in one section.

The Campaigning section, 97-127, covers the basics you'd expect, including the sub-genres that could be part of this game. I don't think we need separate games for spies, cops, detectives, and mercenaries. That seems a bit too nitpicky. Just spend a few pages explaining the differences, and suggest that some choices should be made as to what they actually want to play. This is common sense. The GM should be telling players, or at least asking players, which kinds of adventures to expect. Want to do police procedurals? Ok, here are a few brief suggestions, and some appropriate templates for that. Like John Wick? Here's a few details for the world of gun fu. These don't need to be more than a few pages. People know the source material, which is why they looked at the book in the first place. 

The Sourcebook section is 129-145 and basically explains the setting(s) for the game. They are mostly familiar to us, as it's in the modern world that you see every day. Nothing special here other than the heroic deeds of the players in exceptional stories set in the world we already know. There are a few pages of the political hotspots and other kinds of plot seeds, but nothing too drastic is needed here. Again, just watch the news for 5 minutes and you'll get some ideas. There's also a bibliography for the different genres if you want to get more detailed. We don't need to take up all that space here. If you find yourself invested in the game, you'll want to research stuff anyway. This is also the section where the other equipment is listed. I think all of the different equipment, weapons, and vehicles should be listed here. (Hey @Duke Bushido, while flipping through Danger International I think that I found most of the source material I used to convert my own Western game. I think I merged this with Justice, Inc. to devise my own assumptions about historical weapons. I think I finally solved my own mystery!!!)

Pages 147-174 are the Adventures. There's a variety here. Again, just enough to cover a few of the different cinematic styles. I think with enough plot seeds and stuff in the Sourcebook, this would be sufficient for ongoing play for a while. 

One fun note: these old books always included advertisements for the other books available. It seems obvious, but that sort of cross-platform support doesn't seem to exist anymore. Maybe it doesn't need to with the online store, but it's still a nice touch. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for those old mail-order forms that you'd cut out and send in for other books! But this could be a GREAT way to list the HERO Games site, their presence on DriveThruRPG, and the Hall of Champions project for other adventures and potentially settings. 

So why is this a valuable project? Several reasons:

• There is not much need for the suspension of disbelief when the game is based not the world we already know. There's no need for a lot of world building and setting exposition either. It's quick, easy, and intuitive to play the game.
• No Powers or Modifiers. This is may be the easiest genre to teach because character building is much more limited, with fewer points, and far fewer edge cases to interpret.
• It would be a "complete" game of its own, with no need for any of the other books. In fact, when I pulled DI off my shelf, I discovered my old world map from the '80s. This was all I needed for a "setting." And let's face it: research on this stuff is so much easier today than ever before. We don't need too much in the way of setting information. Trust people to come up with their own ideas after the first series of adventures.
• This is as stripped down of a game as is humanly possible for the HERO System, while still being an actual game and not just a generic set of rules. HERO Basic is shorter, but it is a non-starter for people who want to play a game. DI has all the dials and levers already set to play. There's not even any need to build the equipment as it's already provided for most situations. 

Is this all that people will ever need to play any game they want? Of course not. But if they want to venture into building their own equipment, or designing crazy Bond-like villainous machines, or vehicles for Space Force, they can easily follow the references in the appendix (or whatever) to learn how to venture out on their own with the tool box. Maybe it's not perfect, but it seems like it could be a great presentation of the rules for first-time players in convention or FLGS sessions so people can experience it quickly, efficiently, and with little buy-in needed to enjoy the adventure.

By the way, I see that Scott Ruggels did some of the artwork in this book, which I always enjoyed! But these days I think we all agree that we need more cinematic artwork that mimics the source material in more sophisticated ways. This can still be done in black and white, but it can be done a lot better for sure. It seems to be virtually necessary for the success of a new product, and for the potential for a product line in the future.

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

True.  So what lead the person who knows absolutely nothing about RPGs to buy a Hero System game?  They aren't sitting at the grocery store checkout or the bookstore waiting for an impulse buyer to grab one on a whim.

 

I think a broader "about the game" discussion (probably an expansion of the back cover text (or, viewed another way, the back cover text is the elevator pitch of the detailed "value proposition" in the book itself) would be a better focus for this brief section of the game.  You can sneak some "what is an RPG" in there, but we also get "you get what you pay for and pay for what you get", "simulate cinematic fiction" and, for this complete game, the type of game it is designed to deliver.  For the system as a whole, it's "the toolkit to customize your Hero System game, or even build your own game from the ground u".

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

From the suggested POV of the elevator pitch / cover blurb aimed at creating new players, this bit is completely unimportant.

. . .

Further, it's a comparison:  "this is what makes it different from  / possibly better than other games you are familiar with."  Assuming the intent is to create / interest as wide a variety of new people / players as possible, this has no real value except to those already familiar with both randomly generated _and_ points based build systems.   It suggests to the totally uninitiated "I have to already know more than I do just to understand what the damned teaser says," already putting mental barriers between potential customers and interest.

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Pathfinder 1e and D&D 3e adopted a point-buy system for characteristics ("roll the dice" remains an option, race modifies them and you get to add points at later levels).  Then you pick a race, a class, skills, feats, maybe traits, spells, a subset of class abilities (e.g the cleric picks a deity), and specific individual class abilities (pathfinder has more of this than D&D).  I understand that, in 5e and Pathfinder, your stats are determined by your race, class, background, etc.  Oh, and you get gear, which should be consistent with your Wealth by Level (that's right, in-game currency becomes character build game currency).

So what if there are one-page advertising blurbs for different audiences, carefully place in the gaming equivalent of the grocery store checkout line? (I'm not sure what that would be, but it would most likely be online venues, conventions, crossover commercial sites, etc. I don't know, but this is where some real creativity is needed by DOJ so they can break out of their long-worn rut.)

• Never played an RPG: Have you ever finished your favorite [fill in the genre] book, and wanted the adventure to continue? Maybe you'd be into a Role Playing Game where you can actually be the character, and make the decisions for yourself. It's like a Choose-your-own-adventure book (probably a dated reference), but with a limitless number of choices!
• Read (or watch) comics/fantasy/science fiction: You ever think of making your own superhero? You ever think of becoming that character in your own story? Maybe you'd be into Champions Role Playing Game . . . etc.
• Play D&D or Pathfinder: Hey, are you tired of being forced into the narrow confines of someone else's character classes? Sick of realizing your skill tree dead-ends long before you get to the good stuff? Have you ever wanted to create a character with absolutely no constraints other than what your imagination can concoct? Tired of buying dozens of splat books to figure out how to make the character you really want to play? Maybe you'd like Fantasy HERO. Try this book and the adventure provided. You can even use these provided characters so you can jump right in and learn how the game works before you dive in and create the character you've always wanted to play!

The "what is a Role Playing Game" blurb in every RPG book doesn't have to be more than a page or two. There could even be two blurbs: if you've never played before, go to page 1. If you have, but have never played HERO before, go to page 2. That's enough to get them up to speed. They should be catchy and well-written enough to spark the imagination. Let's move on into how to play the game, assuming you've survived the one page of reading and are still interested in learning how this all works. If you aren't interested enough by the end of one page, then we were never gonna get those players anyway.

I should probably respond individually, but I'll try to do a single response to several repeating themes:

On 2/13/2020 at 12:24 PM, zslane said:

Quite true.

 

However, I think the goal of any "complete game" initiative has to be much much more than just addressing "what is the minimum necessary to start playing?" The over-arching problem at hand is an inability to draw new player interest in the system, and the solution goes way beyond providing entry-level introductory material.

On 2/14/2020 at 12:37 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

For a long term campaign, setting is king.  I'll give you that.  

 

If all I have is a rulebook (assume Champions Complete for the sake of argument) and an adventure, I can get started playing.  If all I have is a rulebook and a setting, I still need an adventure.  If I have a rulebook and a couple of adventures, I can start a campaign.  

 

Personal experience here.  I tried to run a Champions campaign.  I had players, I had characters, I had villains, I had setting.  I didn't have an adventure.  I bombed.  I didn't turn them in to Champions players.  This was the group I'd been playing D&D with for two years, starting with the D&D 5th edition Starter Set and the 5e Players Handbook.  

 

True, the Starter Set assumes the Forgotten Realms, but it gives about a page of countryside map, not much setting other than the actual areas the adventure takes place in, monsters, spells, the minimal rules needed to play characters up from 1st level to 5th.   To me, that is a complete game.  

 

This is not me saying what I think is needed.  This me saying what experience, successful and not, has shown me is needed.  The D&D 5th edition Starter Set is a complete game, IMO.

 

 

In order to get a successful product line, we need more people playing the game.  Period.  

So I see Chris Goodwin and zslane as basically addressing two different issues: 1. having long-term product support to make continuous game development possible and sustainable, as well as to make the game attractive for new players to try; and 2. creating a game for people to learn quickly and easily. I've been trying to walk the line between these two concerns in this particular post, although it may be dean-man's land. It's at least my ideal goal for this particular thread. They need not be mutually exclusive, and I'm trying to play out the details of what would be both the least amount of information needed, and the most desirable presentation of that information.

On 2/14/2020 at 12:08 PM, ScottishFox said:

 

One of the D&D 5e adventures (White Plume Mountain) was brought in from a non-Forgotten Realms setting.  Their advice for running it in the Forgotten Realms was a single paragraph in length.  I've run the adventure for several groups and it's always a good time.

I agree you do need *a* setting, but adventures don't have to be locked into a specific setting to be enjoyable.

 

Otherwise I do agree with you.  The products will perform better as part of a cohesive set instead of a series of one-offs with no over-arching plan.

On 2/13/2020 at 12:05 AM, PhilFleischmann said:

I played D&D for years without ever thinking about a "setting" or a "campaign world".  And it was still fun.  All you need is the map of the location where the adventure takes place - the Haunted Ruins of Castle Hufarb, and maybe the village nearby where the players buy their equipment and supplies and meet up in the tavern, and all the people warn them not to go near those ruins, "No one has ever come back!"  And then you need the map for the next adventure, and then the nest one after that.  You really don't need the map of the land between them, where nothing the players care about is happening.  You don't really need to know where Metropolis and Gotham City are, with respect to Chicago and New York, to play the game.

 

Don't get me wrong:  I love world-building, and I enjoy detailed worlds, and I love epic story arcs that tie all (or many) of the adventures together, but they aren't necessary to start playing.

You know, when I learned D&D (Basic/Expert, and then AD&D), I didn't know anything about "setting." The fantasy genre has its own particular tropes, so the classes, the monsters, etc. were sorta tacit in learning the game. Just look at the title, for crying out loud! There's setting implied right there. But we just played modules that looked cool. Their release accelerated, as I recall, in the mid-'80s, so the point that they became campaign-worthy (all the letters designating the modules indicated a series), and then came the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Ravenloft, and other actual "campaigns" for the game. By the time the World of Greyhawk came out, I was introduced to the concept of a "setting." Then that seemed to spin out of control, to the point that I lost track of what was what. And then 2nd edition came out, and I decided I'd be damned if I'd give TSR all my allowance money yet again to buy all the same stuff, all over again.

Besides, by then I'd discovered Champions and especially Fantasy HERO (the first edition of it). No more character classes? I can actually cross a fighter with a wizard, without weird multi-class or dual-class rules? Sing me up! I can build my own worlds, and with the Bestiary, I don't even have to do all that much work to create adventures? Sign me up! But what I did discover was that, without a setting of some sort, and more importantly, without supporting adventures and stuff it was just too much work for me, and I lost interest. Is this indicative of the HERO system as a whole? I'm not brazen enough to suggest that I represent a microcosm of the problem, but I am suggesting that it is at least indicative of the problem that would continue with HERO. 

On 2/13/2020 at 7:02 PM, Duke Bushido said:

To be honest, that campaign book that came with Justice, Inc?  Dude, that was positively _decadent_ in terms of setting for the games then.  But we still play it. 

 

It was forty years ago, and we are still in love, so I'm thinking that "setting is nice" might be more appropriate. 

. . .

Complete?  Give me an adventure, or enough setting that I can make something appropriate to what's been give.  Don't give me two hundred pages of an entire world:  the party isn't going to walk too terribly far from the starting point, anyway, not for months.  Don't bother me with what I don't need. 

 

The most popular setting book of all time, according to some, was Greyhawk.  I owned it, as I am sure many of you did.  What was that little miniature staple-bound book, anyway?  Maybe 40 pages?  Sure, it grew, but it grew over time; it didn't beat the zeal out of me with six chapters on political intrigue and four more on tax-funded infrastructure.  I don't want to play Phantom Menace; I'll call you if I get bored. 

 

A setting is a backdrop for your adventures; it's nice scenery, and names for the places in the distance.  Other than that, at least for the first few months, it's an oil painting.  Stunning, if done well.  But no matter how well it's done, you can't play it.  Not even a little bit. 

 

So: nice, but _almost_ optional. 

 

I contend that Justice, Inc. is still the best game HERO System ever offered. It's helps that Aaron Allston was involved, but it was successful mostly because he suggested the mood, offered a few guidelines (weird talents if you choose, or psychic powers, or neither--the game still works). He didn't try to rehash the entire Champions system because the powers and stuff really weren't a feature of that game. The Campaign Book was really some simple and straightforward genre information (like a really short and efficient version of Pulp HERO), and then a bunch of adventures and adventure seeds. The game has a definite feel that distinguishes it from the other games, and that is what is essential for a standalone (or "complete") game. At least I think.

Duke, we first interacted, I think, when I was asking on some thread or other about information for Westerns through Justice, Inc. I was mistaken (because Western HERO hadn't been released yet) and realized that I used the game to create my own Western game long before I knew what it meant to use a toolbox to create a game. But that's what I did. It's called home brewing now, I guess. For me, it was just adding a layer to the already existing feel of the pulp genre.

Now, looking at the main rule book, it's actually 96 pages (which surprised me when I looked it up), but it just doesn't feel like 96 pages. It's simple, straightforward, and offers a complete viewpoint. And Package Deals are offered in the Character Creation section, not buried somewhere in the middle of a separate campaign section. (I can't emphasize enough how annoying that move is in all of the HERO books coming out nowadays!) The Campaign Book offers 43 pages of campaign advice and resources, including a brief timeline and slang from back in the day, and then 34 pages of adventures, including the single best idea ever presented in the pulp gaming genre: The Empire Club!. The Campaign Book comes in at 80 pages. So for a total of 176 pages, we have a complete, standalone product with enough playability to last several months, by which time everyone will have a good idea on where to go from there. The Empire Club alone presents the opportunity for an entire series of campaigns with a built-in motivation for any future adventures. Seriously, if you haven't looked at it, and you're interested in designing a game, a setting, or adventures, then it's an absolute must read.

On 2/13/2020 at 1:49 PM, PhilFleischmann said:

Fair enough, but that's really two different goals:  1) To make a "complete" game, and 2) to draw new player interest in the system.

 

I guess I'm not quite clear on what we mean by "complete game".  So... what do we mean by it?

 

For #2, it seems fairly obvious to me that the way to draw new player interest is with the ultimate goal of this - and every - game: to have fun.  If you have some pregen characters and a ready-to-run adventure module, then you can jump right in and start having fun.  You don't need to know the epic backstory of the world in order to start having fun.  You don't need to know all the little details of how to build powers and talents with all their Advantages and Limitations, and END costs, and Base Points and Active Points and Real Points, and how to construct new Martial Arts maneuvers, in order to start having fun.

I think maybe I stumbled upon a better description for what I mean by a "complete" game. Maybe it should be called a "standalone" game. That's not really as sexy of a name. I don't know what the best nomenclature is at this point, but I think that both Champions Complete and Fantasy HERO Complete are actually far from complete. At least there are electronic setting and adventure offerings for the latter, but it just doesn't have any unique character to it like Justice, Inc. does. 

Is that a fair comparison? Probably nothing could live up to it, but it's a great model nonetheless.

18 hours ago, zslane said:

 

It turned out to be an exceptional way to get people playing the entire line of World of Darkness games. If it can work for that, it can work for any game setting, regardless of its underlying mechanics, provided it is conceived, written, and produced well enough. Oh, and provided it really catches people's imaginations. I'm not saying this is easy, only that it is necessary.

 

Yes, sorry, I was assuming that campaign play was the norm for most players. The disconnected, one-off convention style play feels like the sideline, not the main attraction. The very roots of TTRPGs were inextricably tied up in the notion of ongoing campaign play in an established fictional setting (Blackmoor, Greyhawk, etc.). AFAIC, that has not changed in 45 years.

 

Well, not in this case. We don't have the luxury of a large player base to sell new products to. Instead, the product line has a different job here. It's job, from a marketing perspective, is to bring in new players, just like VtM did. The World of Darkness had no established player base. It had to create one, which is more or less the same position that the HERO System is in now.

So, the original quotes that you're responding to aren't coming through in my quotes, but Chris Goodwin suggested we need more players playing the games, to which you suggest that instead we need to bring in new players. I'm not sure how these aren't the same thing. I suppose maybe you're talking about creating an entirely new setting and game which will draw in new people who've never played HERO before, which would be the ultimate goal for any of this (for me at least, and I'm guessing you too). I think we can all agree that this is the best possible outcome. But outside of catching lightning in a bottle, or somehow getting exclusive licensing rights from DC, Marvel, Disney, and whoever else, we likely won't see anything like Vampire: The Gathering or World of Darkness, or whatever else. I'm still somewhat (actually, completely!) baffled that Champions wasn't able to capitalize on 20 years of superhero movies in the public consiousness. Seriously! How could that possibly have failed? 

One guess: crappy artwork. But that's another issue (and I think we all agree on this one, so let's not keep rehashing it). Really, the artwork should look like the comics. Champions: New Millennium at least made the valiant attempt to capture the proper mood. Somehow, even that didn't work. So I guess it comes back around to brand familiarity (DC and Marvel) and licensing, as well as a good setting. 

By the way, I think perhaps in this day and age, convention play is going to be the main driver for new players. I go to Origins every year, and there are always HERO System games there, and always some people who have always heard of it but never played it. They show up to learn, but the games, at least in my experience, have always suffered from the burden of a full ruleset, inscrutable character sheets, absolutely ZERO teaching of the came other than "roll three dice under that number on your totally confusing character sheet." I think HERO System could benefit GREATLY from some dedicated games with simple adventures (say, the first one offered in the game book) so that people can try the game in a controlled, easy-to-comprehend atmosphere. Word of mouth counts at these events. I've seen dozens, if not more, people who were hopeful that they'd like a HERO game, and walk away shaking their heads because they still didn't understand how the To Hit roll was calculated. Seriously. More damage than benefit has been done by word of mouth. That ABSOLUTELY has to change, and DOJ needs to facilitate that type of intentional shift. 

I can't tell you how many games I've played at conventions, only to run to the merchant area afterwards to buy the books for the game. And better yet, have the game designers who were there presenting their game actually autograph the books that I just bought. Yet HERO System as absolutely NO marketing presence at conventions; not even from High Rock Press. Lot's of Dresden Files stuff, and not one HERO game. How can anyone get excited about A. learning a new game; and B. buying the new game on the spot, if they aren't actually learning the game, nor able to actually buy the game. 

Ugh, I've got to stop ranting on this particular problem . . . for now.

13 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

All that bolded stuff is "setting".  It's not a huge setting, much less a full-blown detailed world filled with nations the PCs will probably never visit and NPCs they will likely never meet.  It's enough setting to play the game.  Of course, if the players want their own backstories, that also carries some setting.  My character can't come from a desert tribe without a desert, occupied  by some tribes.

 

What we don't need is a huge, fully realized world.  We need just enough setting to play.  More can follow, whether published or home-grown.

I totally agree with this. Turakian Age is a fantastic setting, but you just about have to cloister yourself to your study to absorb that setting in its entirety. To play a Fantasy HERO game, you really only need something like Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds, with it's starter adventures and some suggestions on where they may be located in the larger setting, and not the entire setting. Like the early days of D&D, as long as you had some idea of what lays outside one's door (Dungeons? Dragons? Sign me up and point me in the right direction!), everything worked just fine for most of us.

Of course, I was the one who always wanted to wander off the provided maps and see what was out there in the uncharted areas. Nowadays storytelling games do a great job of incorporating this into their games. Maps aren't as important as mutual world-building. There's at least something to learn from this, and I believe this is the ultimate goal of Ron Edwards's Champions Now project. Maybe some good will come of it. I don't know. But I do know, from reading his blogs, that he is diametrically opposed to the "official universe" impulse to shmeer everything into one flavor. I'm all for this as well, myself, and so when I'm looking for a "complete" game, I'm looking for just enough setting to get the imagination hooked, to maybe sketch out some of the known areas, and suggest some of the unknown areas, and then offer some adventures that can bring those two together in the future.

7 minutes ago, mallet said:

Marvels (failed) New Universe line of comics.

I knew it, but couldn't remember the name right away. I used to have subscriptions to all of their titles for the first year. I think I quit before the series died out, but I can't remember anymore.

21 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

It's not just "ideal", it is absolutely necessary. Until it happens, we will continue to see the HERO System fade further into obscurity year after year, just as it has done for the past decade. This discussion continues to reappear every six months precisely because there is no perceivable hope for a "complete game", i.e., complete product line, in the system's future.

You got that right! I guess that's why I keep trying to make it a live issue. For now I'm fiddling with some of the conceptual problems, but really I'd like to find a sort of formula that could work for the future. It's not like I'm going to win the lottery and buy HERO from DOJ, but I"m hoping with some thought and a good presentation, we could come up with something other than a complete hack like Champions Now became. I like Ron Edwards's initial impulse to update the game for a more "indie" crowd, but I can't really understand why DOJ would let their intellectual property simply be broken apart and redone in completely foreign terms. It is not the answer for the HERO System and DOJ. 

I saw a couple of years ago that High Rock Press was going to redo Danger International, but it just sort of disappeared off the slate as the character creation cards took all of their attention and effort. It seems like it could become a new model for a new style of presentation, if someone really put more effort into it than was given Fantasy HERO Complete. 

Or maybe I just need to win the lottery . . .

1 minute ago, DShomshak said:

mortals ascended to divinity.

The book I mentioned earlier, Heroes and Hero Worship, begins with an anthropological/philosophical account of how Odin was a king who eventually attained godlike status among his followers, to the extreme point that he actually "became" a god in Norse legend. As I said, this sort of argument actually changed my mind on how the gods play a role in fiction and RPG settings.

Thanks for all the great information, folks! While my initial inclination is with PhilFleischmann, I'm learning a lot of great stuff that has convinced me that I don't have to feel so ambivalent towards fictional theologies.