Brian Stanfield
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Posts posted by Brian Stanfield
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2 hours ago, sturmrider said:
How do you handle an AoE Darkness field say of 8 meters that is placed on an opponent. Does he instantly know the shortest way out and walk out or if not does he walk in a straight line till he is out of it. Finally does he grope around moving randomly till he finds his way out. I found nothing in the rules on this and it is great his DCV is 0, but if he moves in the next phase you may not get the chance to take advantage of this.
6e2 7 will answer some of your questions. There are no specific rules about movement while blinded, but some suggestions are made such as moving 2m per phase to slowly feel one's way out of the darkness without hitting anything. A couple other problems present themselves: while the person at the center of the Darkness is at 1/2 DCV and cannot see out of the Darkness, you can't actually see into (or through) the Darkness either, and so can't really target that person. He could do a full move to get out of the Darkness (without really knowing how big the area really is), but the GM will have to make several judgments all at once, as @Hugh Neilson suggests. Perhaps randomize the person's move (a Perception check is impossible in Darkness) with an INT roll; also, consider not revealing the radius of the darkness to the victim, so they can't metagame a strategy to get out of the darkness; in other words, since they can't see out of or through the Darkness they are stricken with, they can't determine whether the Darkness targets only their own sense group, or if it's an AOE, or any other factor because they just can't see; this may have to be honestly roleplayed by the character to prevent these meta gaming problems.
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37 minutes ago, sinanju said:
His rationale is that PCs should learn about one another by interacting in the game, which I understand, but it does make it harder to create a cohesive group--especially beforehand.
Both are good points, but some concession ought to be made for the group rationale for being a group. But in all honesty, I've played with the idea where everyone starts the first session with no idea about what they can do, so they're a mystery to each other as well as to themselves! Kind of like Marvel's New Universe back in the '80s, where a global incident happened and people began manifesting strange powers, but knew nothing about what was happening or was going to happen. It would be fun to build characters as they play. But that's a whole different logistical problem: why do they get together in the first place. I'd still like to try it though.
I'm dealing with the secrecy thing right now in my Pulp HERO group. They're all new to gaming for the most part, so they don't really have any benchmark expectations, which helps me greatly. But trying to keep the veil up while they learn to roleplay (while also learning to roll play) is challenging. Learning what to reveal and what to keep secret is a delicate balance. I had to create an artificial rationale to put them together, sort of a Dirty Dozen type of motif where they've been hand-selected by a mysterious benefactor, and they each have a very particular skillset to add to a group. I had to coach them up for an appropriate way to do introductions. As long as they keep learning and having fun, no skin off my nose!
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10 hours ago, sinanju said:
Yeah, I'd be happy to do a Session Zero character building session before a new campaign, but many players in our group--John, in particular--really likes keeping his character concept/powers/build a secret until the game starts.
Secret from the GM as well? Or just the other players? Mystery is fun and all, but as was pointed out earlier, the players have to have at least some kind of rationale for being together. That's hard to do with complete secrecy. Revelations are fun, but my players have a tendency to resort to soliloquy to "reveal" what shouldn't actually be revealed. This just sounds like a lot of extra work for the GM.
Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the situation. Wouldn't be the first time. . .
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3 hours ago, greysword said:
These are excellent points, and I think the ideas you both presented go to the original point of the thread. How can we make a Champions (Hero system) version that is inviting to new players/GMs? Especially the GMs. If a new person picks up the core rulebook, it needs to be fairly "Complete" without being 700 (or so) pages. Otherwise, it's not inviting to try. Unfortunately, we don't have the games available for someone new to play for a while before GMing.
What is a Complete game?
Well, I honestly don't think you can slim the book down much more than Champions Complete. It's about as thin as you can get, and still include all the advice and such that the book covers. This is one reason why I suggest in my original post that it would make more sense to try a new experiment with something that is heroic, so it doesn't require all the powers and modifiers, something that is located locally to our everyday experiences (the "real" world), and has mostly pre-built equipment. This pretty much rules out supers and fantasy, which depend entirely upon the Powers (unless you do a magic-less fantasy game, and who really wants to do that anyway?).
As for what makes a game complete, well, we've got 15 pages of stuff about this so far. I decided to drift away from that name because there are already two Complete books which are actually pretty incomplete. I'm leaning towards "one book game" to emphasize that there should only be one book which includes only the information needed to play as quickly as possible. Not basic, or simplified, but also not including all the discussions about how to build this or that, and what not. Builds should be included, but without all the verbiage displayed in anything other than an appendix (or maybe a web document, as @Doc Democracy has suggested). This is pretty much why I focused on Action HERO! as a possible test game.
Champions is virtually impossible to use in this model, unless there were to be a separate Champions game for each setting offered. A generic book such as Champions Complete gives the reader all the tools to build a setting and everything in it, but a one book game should offer all those thing already built so as to help someone such as yourself. The idea is that if the basic setting and equipment of the world is already built, and the power levels already set, the GM can get an idea on how everything should interact in the given world and go ahead with planning games without having to figure everything out from scratch. A few adventures should also be included so that the GM has even less planning to do for the first few game sessions. Really, books like Vibora Bay or San Angelo should be independent games built by HERO System, with all these things explained like a setting book, but also with the rules and everything else included as they fit into the game.
This last part seems to be what some people aren't understanding about my hypothesis. I think it's valuable to present the rules in the game rather than depend on a core book to the side of the setting book. If it's all under one cover, then the rules should be presented as part of the game. But those rules don't have to be the same generic rules that are always presented in every edition of the game since 4e. The rules should be boiled down for the setting, and some of them should just be excluded. In other words, the game creator should interpret the rules for a new GM and players so they don't have to figure out all the parts. Imagine trying to put together a bedroom suite from IKEA, but before you can do that you have to learn a new language to be able to understand the instructions before you can even understand what all the parts are. If all the interpretations are already made, and the translations are already done, then the players and GM can just jump in and start playing.
There should also be plenty of references to the larger shelf of 6e books, and the core rules themselves, so players and GMs can dabble in customizing the game themselves, or perhaps even build their own version of the game. But this stuff should be in sidebars or an appendix, and not "on full display" as seems to be the HERO model these days. If I want to learn HTML, I shouldn't have to dit down and memorize all the tags and then start building from scratch. Most classes start with small projects by making an interpretation of which code is essential, and then build on them. A game should be the same approach: give the essentials, and then point towards the complete code (the 6e1/6e2 books, etc.) for further possibilities.
Just another $.02 from me.
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On 3/15/2020 at 11:28 AM, Tedology said:
Many thanks! I'll check into Slack.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been fiddling around with Microsoft OneNote, and I’ve decided that’s what I’m going to use. It has a great notebook approach with sections and pages which can all be linked like a makeshift wiki, and can be shared with your group so everyone can modify it. Look at the video I posted above for a great tutorial and lots of great ideas.
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Here’s one more popular option that many people suggest: Microsoft OneNote. Check out this video to see what can be done with it.
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My players are suggesting Microsoft Teams as well. I know nothing about it, bu to think it’s primarily video conferencing.
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5 hours ago, Tedology said:
Thank you all for your willingness to help!
@Brian Stanfield - I haven't heard of Tettra - is it hard to use?
Not at all. I figured it out in minutes, and it’s designed to integrate with Slack, so it’s pretty seamless.
I just looked at Obsidian Portal and another called World Anvil, and they both look like they are better versions of what I just set up. I may switch over to one of those instead, after I do a bit more research. I’ll let you know what I find.
The one thing Slack has going for it is that it has become a standard in the business world, so people are likely to either already have it, or may find a use for it outside of gaming if they get it.
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It’s really odd timing that you ask this. I just started a Slack group three days ago, which is really a chat site, but I integrated Google Drive for file sharing, and Tettra for wiki support that everyone can modify. I’m not sure it’s the best way to do it yet, but so far so good. It’s all free, so there are no barriers to entry.
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8 hours ago, C-Note said:
6E does away with the concept of hexes and inches and just uses meters for movement, distances, weapon range, area of effect etc. Feel free to use whatever scale you wish for hex maps.
Ah! I think I’ve just been reading “hexes” into everything out of habit.
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Maybe I’ve missed something that everyone is seeing in 6e. Where is the 1 hex=1 meter scale coming from? On 6e2 p.15 it suggests 1:1 or 1:2, or whatever else is appropriate, but doesn’t set 1:1 as default. In fact, characters are assumed to be 2m tall, so I assumed (perhaps wrongly?) that a hex was still 2m. The rules are careful to explain that measurements are in meters, but don’t set the default scale. Is there a particular passage I’m missing?
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4 hours ago, Tjack said:
I refer you to grown men discussing the sexual tastes of the characters in My Little Pony. Not simply porn, but discussions about who might like what...and how.
Using this as a benchmark, everybody here is boring. Thank God.
Uh . . . I guess I should have said “one of the weirdest threads I’ve ever seen on the HERO forums.”And y’all have made sure of that now!
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5 hours ago, Tjack said:
So what do you think happened? A meteor like the one that fell in Wold-Newton England and caused the mutations that gave that extended family tree it’s abilities possibly irradiating the water table. Special flora like the Wakandan “heart shaped herb” being part of the recipe of Granny’s Spring Tonic, it was mandatory for all family members and did have strange effects on city folk. Or could it be something even more astounding?
It turns out that it wasn’t just “bubbling crude” gurgling beneath the surface of the Clampett land . . . .
This is one of the weirdest threads I’ve ever seen, by the way.
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4 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:
It’s documented in The Armoury, Vol. 1 (Second Edition), available on DrivethruRPG. It’s a third party supplement for Espionage/ Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes. They go into formulas on how to convert muzzle energy to HERO dice amounts. If you have those (usually easy info, but if not, you can get it from reloading manuals). The hard part of conversions are figuring out is the weapons have bonuses to range mods When set & braced ( what kind of scope and how powerful), if the bullet does extra stun (determined by bullet weight) , any bonuses to offset autofire minuses, due to design or compensators. And the like.
Well, I’m in luck: I have that PDF! Thanks for the lead.
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3 hours ago, Tywyll said:
I think its worth mentioning that GURPS has lost a dramatic amount of market share, at least according to Steve Jackson's qurterly reports. It seems systems to build games are suffering all over.
That’s not surprising. I think the universal systems are faltering in unintended ways. And yet Powered by the Apocalypse games are multiplying like rabbits. It’s not the universal system that is a problem; it’s what people are (or aren’t) doing with it that seems to sell. This came up a few pages back. Compact and focused games are popular now because there’s little investment of time or capital, and people can easily try out a lot of different games each week. Consumers in our online e-conomy these days expect to be able to pick things up quickly, follow their curiosity, and then move on to the next shiny shiny.
I think DOJ should seriously consider their own “Powered by HERO System” approach, with smaller, easily learned games that can also be modified in limitless ways. One-book games don’t have to be the ultimate goal, but they can be gateways to folks who might be interested in investing in the larger system after they see it in action in a smaller scale. HERO System should be trying to spark people’s curiosity rather than presume to give them everything they ever wanted. Lost of smaller samples seem more practical. And then we show them the larger system, devised as a way to modify what caught their fancies in the first place.
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7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:
Might be possible. Damage is easy using Kevin Dockery and George MacDonald's formulas.
I’m not familiar with those. Can you point me in the right direction?
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11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:
They have it as PDF in the shop, for $14.00. Thought i tend to like Physical copies to carry around.
DrivethruRPG has them as POD along with the PDF for $20. Totally worth it. I have a couple of physical copies for my table on game days.
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1 hour ago, smoelf said:
I don't know Cypher, but reading about it does present some HERO similarities: http://cypher-system.com/what-is-the-cypher-system/
I’m not sure if you realize that Monte Cook got his start at Iron Crown Enterprises working on various HERO games. So the similarities are not incidental. One thing he does really, really well is create specific settings for his games, and then present them with lavish artwork that is undeniably eye-catching. When was the last time (if ever) you could say that about any HERO game?Never!
- smoelf and Duke Bushido
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9 hours ago, Tywyll said:
So I just learned about a study published in in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked at the decision making processes of shoppers. They found that when shoppers had to choose between 6 jars of Jam or 24 jars of jam, the fewer choices there were the more people purchased. Decision paralysis is a real thing and having limited scope actually helps most people.
So yeah, giving most people a book that has a game with all their decisions made is far more likely to bring them to the table as it were then asking them to build it themselves.
This pretty much sums up the problem with HERO System: they have a whole lot of genre books, each with a whole lot of choices to dial in within each book! Maybe this is the worst of both worlds according to the study!
Don't get me wrong: I love all of the books, and love looking at what they each have to offer. But this is definitely coming from the point of view of someone who studies the Hero System pretty intently. I love that there are so many books. But this is a problem for anyone who is new to the system (which is what is always lurking in the background of the assumptions I'm making in this particular thread).
There used to be individual one-book games back in the day, and they sold. But that was before there was a HERO System toolbox. They were marketed as being built with the HERO System, but the system itself hadn't yet been published. I'm curious what that would look like today, where the system has been published (along with a gazillion other books!). I think a one-book game would look good being taught and played at conventions, and in marketing of some sort. This would probably all be online because I don't really think HERO System will ever make a good showing at game shops anymore. But that's part of what can hopefully be figured out by the folks who are carrying the torch for DOJ and are interested in doing the work that the owners apparently aren't able to do. This is, of course, a whole other can of worms that we should probably save for another thread.
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On 3/3/2020 at 5:36 AM, Tywyll said:
So, I'm still not sold on Action HERO! as a genre because while I appreciate the lack of needing to establish a world, I still can't point to any really successful games set in the modern era that completely lacked any supernatural element.
That said, I was looking at some books yesterday and found some interesting data. The Basic 6E rule book is about 95 pages, once you dump the power section. Urban Fantasy HERO, which is both a genre source book and a campaign(s...seriously it includes 3 whole settings with their own races and magic rules) guide and comes with an adventure comes in at a little over 200 pages. I think you could look at the Urban Fantasy model and, like them, include 2 or 3 campaign settings in the book (maybe even one with precreated powers) and an adventure in a 200 page book.
This would a) teach the rules in an easy format while also b) showing off the flexibility by showing different settings. As long as you stuck to modern based one, the world detail could be minimal. You could have a) generic action setting (though honestly I don't know what this would even look like...what is a generic 80's movie setting?) b) a zombie/alien invastion setting and c) a hiddern monster setting (kind of like monster hunter international/MiB/Xfiles) possibly with some psychic rules or a smattering of spells. All of that for around 200 pages.
So this would fall under the 1b version of what I was suggesting earlier in the thread: use the genre/setting books to dial in the games while still relying on the core rules to teach the game. I'm with you on this: the Urban Fantasy HERO book is a lot of fun, and covers a lot of bases. The primary problem with all of the genre books is that they cover too many bases to count as a single game. I'm all for variety and options, but again the genre books require a lot of prior rules knowledge for the genre choices to even begin to make sense. It's a great model, I think, to introduce new settings/games for existing HERO players, and could potentially play really well in the Hall of Champions.
The 1a version of my original query, a one-book game, is more like the old 3e games that I cite. They teach the rules along with the specific setting and genre assumptions made for that particular game only. So a 6e equivalent to the 3e games would be more than a genre book with some settings: and adventures. The Complete books are based, from what I can see, on the 6e Basic Rulebook because they are condensed in a similar fashion, and then offer a lot of genre advice and a little bit of source material. But they stop short of being one-book games because they don't have settings, campaigns, or adventures under one cover.
So what I'm proposing is something that cuts down the middle: offer a condensed version of the rules, with the unnecessary stuff trimmed out, make the genre assumptions as applied to the setting, and then offer resources (lists!) and some campaign/adventure material. The reason I chose Action HERO! is purely personal, so I'm not convinced that's the best way to go, or the only way to go. I only brought it up because Danger International was supposedly being rebooted and wasn't. I was disappointed, and am curious what it could have looked like. There may not be a market for this sort of game, but maybe that's only because there are very few in existence right now to fill that niche. I can think of Gumshoe and something like One Last Job as the only contemporary examples. But what DOJ most definitely doesn't need right now is yet another version of Champions or Fantasy HERO, because they've done that many times already.
I like Urban Fantasy HERO as a genre, but I think it's too unwieldy as a one-book game: It's really something like 4 or 5 individual games, depending on what you want to pursue: Vampires? Werewolves? Vampires vs. Werewolves? Aliens? Zombies? Each of these would deserve different and unique sourcebooks, and would best be served as their own individual games. I'd probably buy each of them, if they taught the rules for new players, explained the setting, has a resource guide, and offered campaigns or adventures and lots of plot seeds. Without those things, they'd be just another version of the many genre and setting books that have already been done, and very well.
Just a few of my thoughts on what's been covered so far. Thanks for the feedback!
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18 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:
I would have regular reminders in such books to players and GMs that all the features of the game could be modified using the HERO Toolkit if they wanted to change their game to better suit their group.
This is a big part of what I want to include. Not lots of explanation, but simple references that point to where the reader can find more detailed information. I'm even thinking that an appendix could be a good thing at the end of the book for anyone who is interested, showing some of the different builds in their entirety, and then pointing them to the rest of the toolbox to fiddle with it on their own. "Here's how I built this gun, here's how I built this vehicle, here's how I built this ability, but you can do these things for yourself if you're so inclined." The ultimate teaser.
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5 hours ago, ScottishFox said:
I've read through the 6e rules and honestly I can't possibly expect normal human beings to read through this. It's just too much.
PS: I run the 6e rules (mostly) for my Saturday game, but I do ALL of the work. The players tell me what they want and if they can remember how to do attack rolls, skill checks and their combat maneuvers I'm pretty happy.
Yes! This fits with my experience of things, and whether or not that’s a universal problem, it pretty much sums up what I see as the “problem” in this thread. -
50 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:
As I ruminate on this, I think we have it backwards. Hero System 6e does not need support. It IS support.
Thanks for summarizing and articulating the point I was meandering towards. This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
The thing that's held me back for so long in teaching and playing any 6e HERO System games is that I was too busy imaging what I could do with all the material that's available rather than actually getting down to business and doing something with it. I never did settle on any complete magic system for Fantasy HERO, but I sure did devour all the sample systems in the genre book! At least Fantasy HERO Complete has the good sense to settle on one magic system. I just wish the book was organized a little better. Anyway, there's plenty of supporting material out there for 6e, just not the applications of it.
I suspect the Hall of Champions is one way to try to alleviate this. Plenty of applications there. But I suspect it's more of a gold mine for us experienced players, and isn't of much use to people just picking up the game. I may be wrong. At least having adventures available is a good start. But I'd rather see one-book games make a comeback, each with their own adventures included, and perhaps advertisements for more in the Hall of Champions. Remember how all the old 3e books advertised each other? One book showed all the other books available, and lots of people got those books to add to the one book they had, and then could home-brew their own versions. Now, one book, for example Action HERO!, could advertise the toolbox and all the other books like the skills, equipment, and martial arts books so people could home-brew their own modifications. People love to be able to reskin their phones to their personal tastes, but I doubt they'd be so keen on it if they had to create their first interface for their phones. So lets provide that first game, and then show all the ways it can be reskinned to suit people's tastes?
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Just out of curiosity, has anyone been statting these guns as they've been presented? Every gun list I have for HERO is getting dated.
Asking for a friend . . .
Shapeshift, Transform, and You
in HERO System Discussion
Posted
Duke, my friend, you are a poet! This is the best laugh I've had in a couple of weeks. Thank you for your uniquely stream-of-consciousness way of posting!