LoneWolf

Is the limitation only to stop enraged and berserks or only to calm down?  Personally, I would be reluctant to allow a limitation on mind control to be limited to stopping enraged and berserks but have no problem with it calming people down.  As a general rule a power should be able to be described without using any game terms unless that game term is also a commonly used phrase and being used as the commonly used phrase.  From what I can see the terms enraged and berserk is using the game definition not the common usage. If your character (not the player) cannot describe a power to another character without using game terms the power should not be allowed.  

Only to calm someone down is not worth a -2 limitation much less a -4.   A -4 limitation is a single charge that never recovers.   A -2 is a single charge.   Only to calm down is going to be able to be used more than once in the campaign and could be used multiple times in a session.  Only to calm down could be used to prevent someone from panicking and running into danger or prevent a fight before it starts.  
 

If you don’t buy the sense group any sense in that group will “see” you as you really are.     

The Sight group allows you to look like an orc.

The Touch group allows you to you to not only have the proper textures, but also allows you to change your physical shape and mass.  

Hearing allows you to sound like an orc.

Smell allows you to smell like an orc.

Mental would make your mind appear to be that of an orc.

At minimum you would probably need sight and touch.  Hearing and smell would probably also be useful.  The book does state that cellular should have touch as one of the senses it affects.  Without smell/taste a creature like a dog with discriminatory smell will be able to identify you. Without hearing you will need to make mimicry rolls to sound like a woman or an orc. 

When you go against a psychological complication the strength of the complication is used to determine the level of mind control needed.  I would suggest that an enraged or berserk look at the recovery to determine the level of control needed.  The recovery chance is based on how easy it is for the character to overcome his rage.   A recovery of 14 or less might be an EGO +10, an 11 or less an EGO +20 and a 8 or less would be a EGO +30.   Straight EGO I feel is inappropriate because the character does have to excerpt some effort to calm down.  

About a -1 limitation seems about right.  It is fairly limiting on what it causes the target to do, but at the same time it has a lot of applications besides just stopping an enraged or berserk character. Used in the right circumstances it can prevent a lot situations from getting out of hand.   

Good point about the Noncombat Acceleration.   I think you also have to apply this advantage to the base characteristic as well.  That puts the cost to 38 points.  But a real Olympic runner would not have that so they would need more movement and or SPD to achieve the same result.  

The normal human maximum is the point that above this the character is getting into the superhuman range.  Characters with a high SPD that are supposed to be normal humans should consider buying down their movement unless they are supposed to be world class athletes. Part of the problem is that the SPD’s of most published characters are too high.  This is probably because the earlier editions of the game most of the opponents were written like that and it carried over into the later editions.  What people don’t seem to realize is that SPD is a relative stat.  

If you lower the SPD of all characters equally the end result is pretty much the same.   In fact, it often ends up better for the PC’s because it reduces a lot of problems like END usage and other long-term issues. Don’t forget that almost all actions cost at least 1 END including firing a gun or using a defensive action like dodge or block.  Movement also costs END, so a character needs 2 x their SPD in REC or they start losing END quickly.  If the character is using powers that require more END than 1 it is even worse.     
 

The other thing that is not factored in is acceleration and deceleration.   It takes at least an extra segment to get the even x2 NCM.  So, on phase 12 the sprinter can move his full combat movement, on his next phase he can accelerate up to twice his combat movement.  As other have pointed out everyman should have a 2 SPD.   That means he move 36m in a turn.  

According to my calculation a character with 2 SPD and 12M running can run at about slightly over 8.5 miles per hour.   A quick check through an AI search said the average man runs around 8 MPH.  It seems like Hero System is fairly accurate.
 

Even a non-combat form should be able to keep themselves alive long enough to change forms.  Also some technical skills might be used in combat so you cannot completely ignore SPD.  Demolitions and some of the other technical skills might need to be done quickly, so 2 SPD might not be enough.  Overall skill levels are expensive but very useful for this type of character.  Perks and Talents are another thing you will probably want for this type of character.   

This type of character can actually be fairly expensive because of all the little things they have.  
 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Well that's new (-ish.  New to me, anyway.  Multiform was new in 4e (to our group).  We dqbbled with it a bit, but have never used it after that.

 

However, your xomment has left me with the idea of "non-combat Multiform," which has me gigling like an idiot. 

 

 

A non-combat multiform can be fairly effective.  You have two forms one has all the combat ability and the other has all the out of combat utility.  The Hulk is a perfect example of this.  Hulk has all the combat ability where Bruce Banner has all the scientific skills.  That is probably not what you meant but it is still a non-combat multiform.    

Even if you are applying a limitation to the pool of the multipower it comes out more expensive because you have to pay for the individual slots.  If you apply the limitation to the multipower it reduces the cost from 128 to 86, but that is still a lot more the 54.   What has the extra 32 points bought you?  

Using any kind of framework only makes sense when it saves your points.   Spending extra points for a lesser power is ridiculous and negatively impacts the game because the character is weaker than they should be.  Putting only multiform in [b]any framework[/b] is pointless because it gains no real advantage and costs more.   Having 2,000 + separate forms is effectively infinite forms.  If the character has other powers besides multiform in the framework that is a different story.  
 

That is still going to cost a lot more.  If you use a multipower with the limitations on the slots you pay 80 points for the pool and 6 points per slot assuming each slot has 1 continuing charge of 1 hour.   That would mean the cost for 8 forms is now 128 points vs 54.  

Unless I am not understanding what you are doing that seems to be a really bad way of doing it.

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Let's see.

80 points for the base multiform.  -3/4 limit means 4/7 * 80 = 320/7 = 46 points.  x8 forms is 15...and it does NOT get reduced by the time limit.  (The x2 number of objects is basically an "adder" on the total power.  It does not affect the active points in the power, and it's not modified by the power's internal advantages/limitations.)  So it's 61, not 54. 

 

VPP pool size is 46...not 54.  You don't have to pay for the multiple forms.  Control cost starts at 40...but it ALSO gets reduced by the Time Limit.  It also gets reduced somewhat because we're saying the VPP is Multiforms only.  Given that Multiforms are so versatile, I wouldn't give this much.  I might say -1/4, but wouldn't argue much about saying it's +0.  If we call it +0, then the control cost is 23.  So, we're at 69 points.  

 

Note that both of these basically allow arbitrary form swaps, among any defined form...accepting your point that I'm only gonna allow pre-submitted forms, even for the VPP.  Note that this was why I was talking about, for this case, specifically related to the number of forms, but NOT to the multiform cost itself;  it's also what's captured with the multipower slots on charges structure.

The 5 points for doubling is part of the multiform power, this is not the +5 point to get double number of objects.  This is the same thing as increasing the non-combat multiplier on a movement power or increased mass on teleport.   This means it is actually affected by advantages and limitations. 

My point total is accurate for the multiform. 
 

Multiform already has a cheap way to get extra forms. Each +5 gives you double the number of forms so getting 8 extra forms is only 15 points.  Since the limitation only apply to the control cost it will probably be cheaper to simply purchase more forms instead of using a VPP. 

For example, purchasing 8 400-point forms with the time limit of 1-hour costs 54 point, a 54-point VPP with a control cost of 80 with the same limitation costs 77 points.  If I increase the number of forms to 2048 then the multiform costs 77 points.   So, while in theory the VPP gives unlimited forms in reality the straight multiform can get enough forms that it does not matter.

No sane GM is going to allow any player to write up a multiform on the spot during the game.  The game is going to come to a complete stop if a player can write up multiple characters during combat.  Even out of combat the player is going to be so distracted writing up characters that they are still going to be a major drag on the game.  The only way something like this is going to work is if the player is limited to prewritten forms.  If that is the case a VPP is simply paying more points for something they cannot use.      

The numbers above are a rough estimate the actual cost is probably going to be different depending on how the power is bought.  With that many forms you probably don't need to go to the game limit on points as each form can be tailored to specific need. 

A lot of it will depend on the special effect, but there are lots of examples of multiform where the two forms do not share memories.  A werewolf for example often does not share memories, but a character that has multiple suits of powered armor should.  It depends on how different you write up the forms as.  To me either way has advantages and disadvantages so the character can choose how they want it to work without having to pay extra or get a limitation. 

If you purchase most of the same skills for both forms, they should share memories, if the forms have little to no skills in common and have widely different mental stats they probably don’t. 

Uncleavlad is right you don’t do anything on the alternative form.  One thing to remember on a multiform is that they are completely separate characters.    You have to buy everything for each character so any skills especially knowledges do not carry over.   For the most part the characters will have some awareness of the other but that is not always the case.  They may not even be aware of each other existence. 

A physical complication will prevent the forms from knowing about each other.  If the true form is not aware of the alternate form you will probably need a way to trigger it automatically.  Accidental change is the obvious solution. 
 

It’s really not that overpowered.  It applies to a small number of drains and AVAD attacks.  The majority of them are not affected.  What it comes down to is special effect.  Most AVAD power defense is not going to be affected by Damage Negation.  If the attack is an energy or physical attack why does power defense stop it?  AVAD power defense are usually poison or disease or some other effect, not a physical or energy attack.  

What it will apply to are things like AVAD with the defense being physical resistant defense, or hardened defenses.  In 6th edition those are fairly cheap anyways in some cases they are a -0 limitation.  Damage Negation also makes a good defense for AVAD attacks.  This is the perfect defense for something that is supposed to do damage to anything it touches.  A NND with the defense of physical damage negation makes a perfect touch attack.      
 

Look on page 183 of the rule book and in the second paragraph it specifically states, “it works on Normal Damage, AVADs Killing Attacks, Drain STUN and Drain BODY (but not other types of Drain) and any other damage the GM allows it to affect in its category.”  That is a direct quote form the book. 

People are focusing on part of the sentence and ignoring the rest.   Damage Negation can affect any damage of the category it is bought for.  This does not mean it affects all those types of damage all the time, or that it should never affect those types of damage. For Damage Negation to work it has to be an attack of the appropriate type.  My NND could be some sort of microwave energy that heats the target from the inside ignoring all armor and a characters normal ED, but that attack is still energy.   A character with Damage Negation energy would get it vs that attack.  On the other hand my NND could be a direct attack on the characters soul.  That attack is neither physical, energy or mental, so a character with all three types of damage negation would not affect it.   

This is no different than buying Desolidification with the limitation physical only.  Would a character with that power take damage from a nerve strike even if they did not have the defense?  The argument that Damage Negation is too cheap because of this does not change the fact this is how it is supposed to work. 
 

@unclealad If the attack is outside one of the categories the character purchased damage negation for then it is not covered.  So, the attack going against power defense would not be reduced by damage negation. Damage negation specifies it only works on attacks doing actual damage, and gives examples of it not working on entangles, flashes or transforms so why should it work on mind control?

@Gauntlet Damage negation can apply to drain BODY or STUN, but if the attack has the right special effect.  I could have a drain with the special effect of an electrical attack.  If that is the case damage negation energy would work, if it drained BODY or STUN.  Also, AVLD and NND can have physical or energy as the defense.   An example is a nerve strike where the defense is ridged armor.  
 

Check page 183 of the 1st rule book.  It states there are 3 categories (Physical, Energy, and Mental). The third sentence in that section lists what type of damage it covers (Normal, AVAD, Killing etc.)  and ends with any other type of damage the GM allows in its category.   The phrase in its category makes it clear the attack has to be appropriate for the type of damage negation purchased. 

From the looks of it people have been overlooking that phrase and thinking it does more than it does.  If it were allowed, I would copy and paste that paragraph.  
 

When you buy damage negation you buy it for physical damage, energy damage or mental damage.  If you bought it for physical, it does not affect the other two unless you also bought it for that.  That applies no matter what the advantage or limitation on the power is.  Damage negation only affects AVLD and NND attacks with appropriate special effects.  So, if your NND is a nerve strike damage negation physical would apply, if it is a microwave gun that heats up the target form the inside damage negation energy applies.  If the special effect is not physical, energy or mental damage negation does not apply.  So, the NND that has a disease as its special effect is not affected by any damage negation.  For many attacks the type of attack is going to be obvious, but if not, it is up to the GM to decide which if any category the attack fits in.

The other thing to keep in mind is that while it affects AVLD and NND it does not stop them completely.  Someone with 4 DCs of damage negation being hit by a 6d6 NND still takes 4d6 damage.   With an NND you can often buy the defense for a couple of points.  The defense of an NND of being immune to heat only cost 2 points.  That 2 points will protect you from any amount of damage.  Why is it ok to ignore someone’s 60-point power for 2 points, but to paying 20 points for 4 DCs of damage negation reducing the damage by 2d6 is not?    
 

For comparison 60 points allows you to buy 40 points of resistant defense.   That would actually total stop all the BODY from a 6d6 KA or the average stun from an 11d6 blast, that is also assuming the character has no other defenses.   If you factor in hardened and impenetrable you would end up with about 26 points of resistant defense.  That will stop all the BODY of 4d6 KA and roughly the average of a 7 1/2d6 Blast.  In either case most GMs are going to have a problem with this much defense that does not have severe limitation on it.   I can see allowing this much points to be used for a character that is supposed to be immune to a specific attack but would not allow either of these powers to be used vs all damage. 

Personally, I usually mix damage negation with more traditional defenses instead of relying solely on damage negation.   I often use damage negation for force field effects instead of resistant defense.  To me it makes sense that a force field stops all of the attack or none of it instead of it varying depending on how well the attacker rolls.  

It also works better vs continuing attacks up to the amount a certain amount of damage.  This allows you to create a power that can protect you from ongoing environmental damage.  Doing it this way can mean you don’t need to buy immunities or safe environments using LS.  The problem with LS immunities is that it is all or nothing and does not actually reduce the damage you take from attacks.  If I buy LS immune to heat for 2 points it does not reduce the amount of damage I take, unless the attack is an NND or has some strange limitation.  I can also theoretically withstand any heat-based attack no matter how powerful, but still take damage from a campfire.   If I take -4 DC of energy damage with the limitation fire only, I completely ignore any heat-based attack under 20 points, and it reduces the damage from anything higher.    

I think damage negation does have uses, but probably should not be used as the only defense.  
 

I actually think damage negation is a decent power.  It gives a better way to get closer to absolute immunity than anything else except a GM declaring it.  In games that use critical hits this can and hit locations it is even better at it.  Don’t forget that damage negation works vs NND, AVLD and other advantages that normal resistant defense does not.   I use it as a replacement for old power force field.

I can buy -12 DC’s of damage negation only vs fire for 30 points.  If I am using resistant defense I will get 28 because I need to take hardened and impenetrable for it to work properly.   Let’s say there are two characters that bought immunity to fire as defined above and has an addition 20 points of defense.  The first character takes no damage from a 15d6 or less blast, and on the average can ignore an 18d6 blast. The second character will take no damage from an 8d6 blast and on the average can ignore a 13d6 blast.  The first character will also ignore a 6d6 NND even if he does not have the defense.     

By the way you realize this thread has been dead for almost 19 years.  The thread predates damage negation by quite a while.  So, the question I have is thread necromancy an evil act? Or should that be answered in a different thread?

Is there any reason a character cannot have two or more separate sets of powers with taking the unified power limitation?  Each set would only be affected by drains targeting powers in their own set.  For example, a character with both fire and ice powers is hit with a drain that affects one of his fire powers so drains all the fire powers, but none of the ice powers.      

The perceivable is basically the noisy limitation from the older editions.   What it really means is that it draws attention to the person with the power.  Under those rules someone who saw a spell caster casting an obvious spell would be able to “see” the spell being cast.  A spell with the noisy limitation meant that any wizard had a chance of noticing the spell even if they were not looking where the spell caster was.  

I would not focus on the fact that specific powers from characters have the limitation.  In the Hero System each power is unique and does not have to operate the way a similar power.  One characters body of stone could be smooth and difficult to tell from normal flesh at a distance.  Think of a carved marble statue.   Another character's body of stone could be individual rocks like the Thing from the Fantastic Four.   The first character could sound fairly normal when they move, the second could sound like chalk on a blackboard when the plates rub against each other.   The first character would have the -0 limitation where the second would be justified in taking the -1/4.  Both have the same power and similar special effect.    

I would still require prewritten power instead of using the template @unclevlad presented.  The reason to do that is that not everyone has all the modifiers memorized.  The thing that slows down the game is having to look things up.  Very few people are able to write up a power in their head and get everything right.  To prevent seeming favoritism it is easier and fairer to simply say all powers need to be prewritten.  

In addition to having to look things up this also eliminates questionable powers or abusive powers that are legal.  The only way to ensure that there is no distracting discussion on powers during combat is to have all powers defined before the combat starts.  This would also mean any NND’s have to be defined before combat to prevent discussions on whether the defense is appropriate or how much of a limitation it is.  

Keep in mind that the problems affect both the player and the GM.  If the GM is not capable of checking the power in his head including the math that will slow the game down just as much as the player looking it up.  One of the main responsibilities of the GM is to ensure that the characters are appropriate for the game he is running.  Having a player able to create things on the fly makes this incredibly difficult.  

This is one time where the GM should give the players little or no slack.  Changing the special effect of a power that does not alter the game mechanics is fine.  Changing an attack from physical to energy should also be fine.  Changing the defense for an NND from immune to heat to mental defense is not.   About as far as I would allow would be change the defense of an NND from immune to fire to immune to cold, immune to fire to longevity would not be acceptable.