SleepyDrug

Re: Vibora Bay Super team ideas...

For inspiration, i'd turn to Marvel's Defenders (a mystic/cosmic group):

Dr. Strange (mage)

Gargoyle (gargoyle/soul manipulation)

Valkyrie (an asgardian)

Son of Satan (half-demon)

Hellcat (mystic senses/martial artist)

Re: Some more old school questions...

Well, I've gotten my hands on a 4th edition book, now all I need to do is get myself the 5th edition and my collection will span 1st-5th! I have a few questions currently, though, that will seem incredibly silly, perhaps...

 

2) Do vehicals or bases allow frameworks (like EC winter for a floating iceberg fortress, ice weapons that can entangle or eb - but not both at once,....

Yes, and Star Hero or the Ultimate Vehicle have several examples of just this.

3) I still do not know the cost of MF - I will be getting the books, but I need to have my character ready by the time my friend arrives for a 5th ed game. I can build everything (I think) for my character but that - and that is a big portion of the character. The 4th and 5th edition differ in a major way, I understand, for this power.

Multi-Form costs 1 AP per 5 CP in the most expensive form; x2 forms per +5 pts

4) Is there a online list of adv/disadv or modifiers? Perhaps a collection of minor +/- 1/4 mods or a nice list of mental mods?

 

Again, thanks!

For this last....we need Tom McCarthy. The TML list for 4th is the best ever and we need one for 5th.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

"with Thanos' power levels."

 

Either you mistated originally, or changed your opinion. Pick one.

You misunderstand what I say.

 

I say that Thanos considers a nuke something to drop at his *own* feet to clear out riff-raff. Neither Doom or Destroyer can casually set off a nuke at point blank without fear of any harm.

 

Your welcome. Now, try rereading what *I* said more carefully.

Actually, I could see Doom dropping a nuke at his own feet. And afterwards we'd find that it was a robot doppelganger, or he boosted his defenses magically, or kept himself safe with a special device he built.

Doom or Destroyer sans any special precautions can't casually drop a nuke. But both sport huge VPP gadgeteering pools and are always with some extra boost to their abilities.

BTW, Destroyer did perform the equivalent of nuking himself in Detroit.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

He. Does. Not. Have. Thanos'. Power. Level.

 

Thanos. Considers. A Megaton Range Nuke. To Be Something. You Use. To Clear Away the Riff Raff. By Dropping it At Your Feet.

i would help...before the obviously intended attitude...if you *read* my posts and responded to what. i. wrote.

Let's recap. (1) I said "Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals."

This means I AGREE that Doom lacks Thanos' power level.

But (2) for the record....Doom would *happily* use a nuke to clear away riff raff if that was part of his plan. Reference Secret War #11 when Doom killed 40 +/- heroes with a bolt from the blue just because he could.

Thank you for the insult and commentary to something other than my post.

Re: Mea culpa too

I'll agree the Champions Universe has many Marvel analogs. In my own games I have seen the same parallels. I try to make my own characters as unique as possible but when they are fleshed out the invariably resemble something from Marvel. The players I have gamed with do the same. I've lost count of the many Wolverine clones who have come to play at my table. I know many on these boards' date=' especially those who are more hardcore comicbook fans than I, are weary of the mutant phenomenon (adolescent mutant emergence, hysteria etc). I do it too. Always have. I for one like gaming in a mutant world.[/quote']

 

My worlds are usually more along the lines of an Avengers or JLA comic. I like the anti-mutant elements, but not as a game focus.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

This is why I bring up the Dr Destroyer = Darkseid or Thanos arguments.

 

Dr. Destroyer attacks, defences, powers and skills make him one of the 4 or 5 most personally powerful beings we have seen in the modern Champions Universe. The others are space gods and immortal magic lords. It takes an alliance of dozens of heroes to fight him, and every time he does enter combat Heros start dying.

 

If they existed in the Champs U he would totally go after the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, or Anti-Life equation.

True....but then Doom did go after the Infinity Gauntlet and the Cosmic Cube at times; as well as the Silver Surfer's power cosmic, the Beyonder's power, and augmented magical power.

In the end, Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

 

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

Steve Long has said that Dr Destroyer is the Champions Universe version of Dr Doom.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

I have no problem with the villain's power levels in the Champions Universe, outside of Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes. I understand the villains are generally going to be outnumbered somewhere between 2 - 6 to 1. They need to be designed to withstand teams of 2 to 6 characters. As I said above, about half of the villains in the Champions Universe are built on 400 points or less and those are all decent one-to-one opponents for the 350 point characters.

 

My own list of villains would be as follows:

 

Imperial Villains: Dr. Destroyer, Istvantha, Skarn, Takofanes, Tyrannon

 

Master Villains: Gravitar, Mechanon, Menton, Teleios, Viperia, Warlord

 

Minor-Master Villains: Black Paladin, Holocaust, Interface, Stingray, Zorran

 

Crime Lords: Kevin Poe, Franklin Stone, The Purple Gang, Jade Phoenix

I like your division. Who are Poe, Jade Phoenix, and the Purple Gang? Stone I know is in CU. Where are the rest from?

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions' date=' but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.[/quote']

 

I agree. The "standard" power level discussed in Champions, CU, and FREd does *not* match the write-ups in CKC and other villain books. I think the Champions should in actuality be around 500 points. With other heroes betweeen 300 (for rookies) to 600. Of course, in my universe, I have altered the Champions and use Eitherio's Project XIII has a hero team.

 

But i'm focused on villain roles.

 

Master Villains -- World Shakers

Comic Eq: Red Skull, Dr Doom, Magneto, Graviton, Mandarin, Nefaria

C U: Dr Destroyer, Mechanon, Istvahan V'han, Gravitar, Warlord, Teleios

 

Master Villains -- City Threats

Comic Eq: Baron Zemo, Mystique, Dr Octopus, Crimson Cowl

C U: Zorran, Anubis, Holocaust

C U (with teams): Binder, Fiacho, Psimon

 

The question here is, partially -- who do all of these solo villains "for hire" get employed by? the mob?

 

Viper, PSI, Destroyer, Binder, Fiacho, Dark Seraph...all have supers on the payroll already. Where are the masterminds and crimelords that need to hire impromptu teams of villains?

Re: No Frameworks?

I am thinking about starting a Hero System game after my d20 Modern game runs its course. The last time I ran a Hero System game it was fourth edition and some time ago. This will be a superhero game in terms of the power level except that everything will be supernatural/mystical. I don't really like frameworks and I was wondering if anyone has every ran a game at that level without using frameworks? If so' date=' how did it work out? Are there any potential balance issues to look for since I may not be using frameworks?[/quote']

 

No, because I feel it severely limits the power levels of the game. There is nothing broken or wrong with frameworks. They do need to be monitored like any other aspect of the character.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him), Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill. I would put Mechanon in this group as well, though he does not seem to have any real interest in using other villains beneath him. The campaign needs those Minor-Masters so they can work up to the true world-shakers.

 

As far a solo villains, I think half of CKC is devoted to villains at 400 points or less. Any of them are a decent match-up for starting characters, one one one.

Mechanon wouldn't form a team.

Interface -- who is this?

Dark Seraph, Zorran, and Holocaust are a good start. So might Photon or Tesseract come to think of it.

Re: Next Book?

Sharper than a serpent's tooth has a large number of villains in it as does Arcane Adversaries. STAST seemed a little more interesting to me than AA did. I guess I just like the idea of COIL being reborn, plus you get a multi-part adventure.

 

VIPER has 10 villains in it, including 5E write ups for Boa Constrictor, Freon, Halfjack, Oculon, Ripper, and Viperia. To me it came off as more of a weapons/package deal book than anything. It just didn't seem to have as much "cream" as DEMON.

 

As for 4E books, I'm an old-school Champions player so the characters in Enemies, Enemies II, and Classic Enemies are the only ones I ever really paid too much attention too.

I have Classic Enemies. Coil never previously interested me. Maybe I should check out the rework and see if it has improved.

One of my favorite features of the 4th ed Viper book was the vast array of villains and agents written up. I was hoping to see more of them reproduced in the new Viper book. I might need to get Viper 4th ed to use for conversions.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.

Re: Next Book?

As a spin off on this question. (All I have is FREd, CKC, UMA, Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, and the Beastiary).

I am on a Champions focus right now and mostly interested in either Ultimate series or books with characters. I'm less concerned with settings. I thought Millenium City was vastly underdone (because there is no way a major supercity fits into the boundaries of Detroit without absorbing the entire metro area).

What books are good to get for villains or npc's and which 4th ed books have the best villains not getting reproduced. (Since VVV is apparently going light on established characters).

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

Originally Posted by Jhamin

There are a few, but not many

-Sinestro

-Gorilla Grod

-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)

-Weather Wizard

You've listed at least two from Flash already. Let's add: Vandal Savage (very nasty), Captain Cold (very silly) and, oh, the whole Rogues' Gallery. Let's face it the Rogues are probably more memorable collectively than individually.

 

How about: Professor Zoom, Abra Kadabra and Dr. Alchemy, for characters at the more serious end.

I think very little of the Rogues. Grodd, Zoom, and Savage is about it for Flash's interesting villains.

OK, the LSH: the Time Trapper (and Glorith), the Fatal Five (Validus, the Emerald Empress...), the Legion of Supervillains (who killed Karate Kid?). Mordru, while tough, doesn't quite rate for me. Instead, I might suggest Evillo of Tartarus, if only for the story with Sugyn, Polar Boy and Matter Eater Lad....

Mordru is the only LSH villain I know; and then because of his JSA run.

Green Lantern: uhh, I haven't read much of his stuff for a long time. Let's see: Sinestro, Star Sapphire, the Manhunters...

And all Kyle ever had was Effigy, Fatale, Grayven, Nero and the Black Circle. Sad for a 100 issue run.

Golden Age characters:

Solomon Grundy (an old favourite of mine).

The Ultra-Humanite (the Golden Age miniseries should just how scary he can be).

There are a bunch of others that should up in memorable stories, even if they aren't so flash themselves. The Wizard comes to mind, since he was in the "Earth-2 Superman marries Lois" story.

 

New Teen Titans: Brother Blood, Trigon, Deathstroke the Terminator, Terra, H.I.V.E. (possibly the only global criminal conspiracy to ever be defeated!).

Titans have some good stuff there. JSA less so. DC is more character than villain driven.

There's enough stuff there. Granted, there maybe a higher proportion of decent Marvel villains, but, then again, there is a very high proportion of Marvel rubbish as well.

 

And nothing DC currently produces sucks quite so hard as the thousand and one X-titles...

X-Titles aren't all bad. But then, few of the X-Men's core villains have been used recently. The point is that the X-Men have many interesting villains easily listed: Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Hellfire Club, Brood, Nimrod, Sentinels, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Acolytes, Black Tom...

Avengers: Loki, Thanos, Ultron, Kang, Morgan Le Fay, Immortus, Kree, Masters of Evil, Grandmaster, Grim Reaper, Count Nefaria....

I can't name that many JLA villains (and yes, i read te title)

Re: The Big Arguments

I'll have to plead ignorance here. I don't read comics, but how common is it to have a Shape-shifting character, that's restricted to normal human strength in the Superhero Genre?

 

It just seems that if they have the power to shape-shift then why not more STR, or additional STR for only specific shape-shifted forms.

Additional STR should be paid for. Shape Shift is (IMO) in the same group as Extra Limbs. You have different/additional body parts, but it effects none of your abilities.

My own gripe was with using Desolid for rubberized characters for squeezing unders doors and through pipes. I asked Steve Long if Shape Shift could be used instead and said using the Touch group would allow that capability with Shapeshift.

 

- Christopher Muillins

This last I agree with. The reworking of Shapeshift was one of the major flaws of 5th E. I consider plasticity to be part of Shapeshift and Shapeshift cost to be based on versatility of forms.

Re: Skills Help: Entrepreneur?

Well, Wayne Corporation should have gone out of business long ago from neglect, but:

 

Acting, Tactics (Corporate), Perusasion and Oratory to keep control of the company. PS:Management, Executive, Accounting, Corporate Politician, and High Finance to understand what's going on in the company. SS:High Finance, SS:Acconting, and SS:Business if you want him to actually make the odd useful contribution. A few Slavishly Loyal contacts and followers in the company are vital, as they will handle day to day opperations.

In the comics, Wayne Corp stays in business because of a brilliant second in charge...Lucius Fox.

Good overview of skills

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

I prefer the Marvel U to the DC U for the most part, because of how the heroes are set up. DC heroes are all 'icons', as it were ... the headline DC characters were all uber-competent, nigh-perfect characters. They were symbols, in a way ... always in control of their lives. Their powers granted them control over their little parts of the universe.

They tend to overshadow any other character by their very presence.

Compare/constrast with Spider-Man, who had fewer problems in costume than in his secret ID, the Hulk who was uncontrollable, the Thing who didn't want his powers, the public backlash of mutancy, etc etc. Basically, Marvel's heroes were more 'human' than DCs ... which I think is important.

 

Or, I could just be completely f'ing loco. Your call.

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman, and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

I would argue that the Harbringer is Punisher's philosophy and methods combined with Batmans uber-competence and "I'm a normal that can own most supers" skill set.

Possibly. If he wasn't so lame i'd compare him to Solo (from Spider-Man) but i can see your point.

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

And Champs U has a serious ( non-ducky ) Batman analogue, too, sort of. . .

 

. . .the Harbinger of Justice.

 

He's just not welcome in superheroic company. . .

Nope, the Harbinger is more Punisher than Batman.

Although the host of ugly villains remind me of Batman.

Re: Master List of Distinctive Features

Re: "Rode hard and put away wet."

 

Think about it...

 

Man, how to explain this without saying something I'll get scolded for...

The man is making a bad rated XXX innuendo and should consider himself promptly scolded.

Re: Skills in a Base

Skills in a base create "Labs" that can be used as complimentary skill rolls for characters using the Lab.

Lets say the Base had Robotics 16- and Power Armor Guy wanted to build a butler bot with his SS: Robotics 14-.

Power Armor Guy rolls a 10 and the lab rolls a 12. This gives PAG a bonus of +2 to his roll, allowing him to succeed by 6.

Re: Please review Evil Witch for Champions game

Not knowing your campaign; she seems fine to me. Personally, i'd bump her EGO to 23 or so to make her more "strong willed" because that is fitting for a demonologist and mystic.

Re: Raw STR: Marvel

Just for the fun of it, I used the SAGA to Hero conversion posted in another thread. Here are the results ( I have no clue how to make a proper table):

Fun with conversions is always good. For awhile I ran a campaign entirely in the Marvel U, but I'm back in the Champions U again. The MU works good if all the players know the characters.

Hulk (non-enraged)100

Silver Surfer 100

Thor 90

Hercules 90

Hyperion 90

Wonder Man 90

Juggernaut 90

Thing 80

She-Hulk 70

Namor 70

Rhino 70

The upper tiers look ok. I'd probably bump She-Hulk to 75. She is considerably stronger recently.

Iron Man 60

Rogue 60

Vision 60

Annihilus 60

Loki 60

Ultron 60

Power Princess 60

Warbird 60

These seem a little off. Iron Man is stronger than some of these others. I'd say at least 65, maybe 70, on this scale.

Giant Man 50

Venom 50

Crimson Dynamo 50

Spider-Man 45

Doctor Doom 45

Dreadnought 45

Luke Cage 40

Giant-Man? Hank Pym? Should be closer be at least the Thing's level at full height. Luke Cage is about right, but i'd also give him martial arts or a HA because he hits harder than he should given his strength level.

Green Goblin 35

Grim Reaper 30

Sabertooth 25

Captain America 25

Kingpin 23

Black Panther 23

Daredevil 20

Wolverine 20

Goblin is nearly Spider-Man's match in Strength (40-45), the Grim Reaper is normal human levels (20), Sabretooth can crush a iron dumbbell in his hands easily (30), The rest look good on this scale.

I don't know about you but to me this table seems about right.

Given the power levels in the FREd, this matches up about right. A larger spread than I allow for my players. But some of these higher tier people should outpower players.

Idle curiousity....but does anyone have a good index of the many heroes, villains, organizations, and others from 4th edition so we can keep tabs on whose alive / whose dead / whose no longer / and who might be in 5th?