Toadmaster

Well I've bought all of the new HERO stuff except for the Champions specific stuff (although I did get Champions since I very occasionally like to do a super game and it has some stuff useful to other genres). Reading through Ninja Hero I remembered playing Bushido many, many moons ago but I really don't remember much about it. I have GURPS China and Japan but was just wondering if I should also track down Bushido. So rather than needing NH I was kinda hoping to find something to inspire me to play NH, its really not a genre I am into but was hoping to get in the mood for it. I know Surbrooks stuff has some Asian mythological critters, FH with a twist might be a good idea since I do like FH alot. I think your right about it being available at FGU, that would make sense I keep forgetting they are still around, so many other from that time period are gone. I know the system you are talking about if it is similar to the one they used in Aftermath and Daredevils, makes HERO seem like Toon in comparison, but doesn't give the payoff for all the work like HERO does. I guess I look around for FGU's site for a description and price, thanks for the responses.

What if you take this a step further and assume all armor has body, while the effect of overcoming body in an object is to break or cause a gap in the object, but in the case of armor what if each time the body is overcome the armor loses a point of DEF, so instead of having to apply the damage to the armor before injuring the wearer you just track both the armor and the character, for example BoB the Slayer takes 3 hits doing 9 points, 11 points and 8 points of damage, if he were wearing boiled leather (lets say DEF 3, Body 6), then after the first hit he loses a point of DEF (6 body got through), the second hit he loses another point of DEF (9 more body got through) and the third hit pretty much finishes off his armor (and probably BoB too), but if he had been wearing Chain Mail (DEF6, Body 10) he wouldn't have lost any DEF until the third hit this way light armor is more easily damaged than heavier armor and the only calculation to keep track of is body taken by armor. Light armor might be ruined after a fight that inflicts lots of damage or kills the wearer but heavy armor will last awhile slowly being damaged (and will probably out last the wearer) which seems right to me.

Years ago I had the FGU game Bushido, what I was wondering is how good was the material and what "type" of Ninja HERO setting would it most closely fit into. Its been years and while I remember playing a bit and having fun I really don't remember much about it and was wondering if it was worth locating as material for HERO, I think I saw it was still available someplace. Thanks

GURPS has great source books, until DoJ came on board I'd have to give GURPS the nod for quality. Now its not so clear cut, GURPS has some great books and many people buy them that don't even play GURPS, so far HERO has been very impressive and if they keep up the quality they have shown so far they will definately be competing for the same markets. As far as offering additional material for HERO they are a great resource.

I think you are on to something here, I am tingly with anticipation. Good work. Now something else to complicate matters. Armor, you take a 1/4" thick piece of steel and call it a breast plate and it just has DEF but you make it into a wall and suddenly it has Body. Perhaps Body should only apply to an attack trying to open a large breach while only DEF would apply if you are just poking a hole through it, so blasting away at a wood door to hit the guy holding it shut woud only have to deal with the DEF before affecting the target on the other side but trying to chop the door down so you could get in there would go against DEF and Body. The same would apply to armor, blasting a hole in a tank use the DEF but if you want to rip a large hole you have to overcome the facings Body seperately from the vehicles Body.

You can also occasionally find reprints of catalogs, I used to have a 1900 sears catalog reprint (loads of everyday items from irons and washtubs to shotguns and butcherknives) and another from Remington or Winchester from about the 1920's or 30's which had lots of outdoor equipment such as camping gear, ammunition, guns, canoes, portable lights etc. There is also a company the standard catalog of ..... (firearms, American cars, 4x4's etc) which is quite useful, they typically cover a period of the topic, I have several of the automotive ones, they give a pretty good escription of the cars (whatever) and typically include the price when new. I also had a similar book on homes which I was using for the floorplans but they also included the price when built. There are lots of resources out there the tricky part is finding them (and then not misplacing them once you do).

Thats one of the things I don't like about the real weapon lim, it adds too much to the GM side of the equation. Needs to be cleaned, oiled, should not be dropped from 20,000 feet I can buy for real weapon but you can't hurt that even though you can easily damage it by the rules is a bit too far for me, that is the GM's job to determine, putting this into the real weapon lim goes to far for me and seems to excuse the GM from being practical. If it is obvious to the players and the GM that the situation is not right despite the rules, then you can't do it, if it is not so cut and dried to both the gM and players then it deservs at least a little discussion, I'd hate to see the GM duck out of defending a "you can't do that, end of argument" based solely on the real weapon lim. I think real weapon has actually caused a problem because def typically is too low compared to weapons, but in most discussions surrounding raising def the new def is compared to things such as "well then the Abrams could survive a fall from orbit" which is silly any GM should rule that the tank is unservicable and the crew is jelly, yet from the other side "weapons can cut right through a tank" Real weapon is pulled out as a defense of the low defenses. I don't know the solution and am probably off on a tangent but I don't like "real weapon" as the reasoning behind preventing damage SFX should be all that is required for that.

I just want to thank you for posting this thread, I thought STRMIN was far more broken than it actually is, funny how when I re-read the book I find things I didn't see before. Based on point value I was looking at a 30 STRMIN for a .50 cal rifle, and thought I would have to develop some house rules, but after re-reading the STRMIN section I see that I can drop 5 STRMIN for Braced and another 10 for using a Bipod, if I toss in another 2 or 3 for the muzzle brake that drops it down to 12-13, quite reasonable for such a big rifle and with a STRMIN in the 27-28 range firing on the move from the shoulder forces it to be used from the ground as it should. I'm also considering adding as a house rule a side effect of 1d6 Normal attack for each full 5 points the STRMIN exceeds your STR, some of the really big rifles have been known to cause serious injuries including broken bones, it would add a little more incentive to stop and brace those .600 Nitro double rifles before taking a shot.

Ok, I see the differance, no stun on the whole attack is a lim, but no stun on the part of the attack which probably wouldn't do any stun anyway isn't because in that case its not really much of a disadvantage. That makes sense to me, I also see how much the intended setting must be considered when looking at the value of limitations, I've generally considered a lim to be of equal value regardless of the genre, I see this is not the case. I tend to have a hard time when soliciting advice on rules because the Champions players generally seem to be the most fluent in the situational / point value questions. I'm guessing because in that genre weird manipulations of the powers system is so common, but I tend to wind up spending alot of time getting them past the fact I'm not playing in a superheroic setting. If I state up front that I'm not playng a Supers game I find I get fewer responses from those same people that tend to eventually be so helpful, perhaps because they don't feel they would be much help, I don't know. I guess I need to find a way of putting my disclaimer up front that I welcome the view point of Supers players while making it clear I'm not in a supers game. When possible I prefer to use the rules when possible as opposed to a house rule, it takes some work but in the end I have found somebody usually finds a way to do it for me. Anyway thanks for your patience. Tom, I don't really understand how you built your version of "piercing" it looks like you just assigned a cost to an effect, or am I missing how you did it? Thanks to all who have replied.

I don't want to step on anybodies fun but like I said earlier HERO already deals with the extra damage aspect of targeting, Player "I'm going to go for the Jugular" GM "ok, take a head shot and apply some CSL's to cause extra damage". That fits within the rules, provides the desired flavor and has a similar result (head shot + x number of CSL's applied to damage instead of to hit which is about the same as head with an additional penalty), if you want to allow unskilled characters the same option allow +DC for each -2. For special effects such as blinding the target I have no problem with that unless it becomes a regular occurance in which case the character should probably buy it as an attack. I'm the first to toss a rule and make something up if it makes the game better but I think in this case you are overlooking rules that would work without making something up. But hey if you feel its more fun the other way go for it, I'm certainly not a member of the HERO Rules Enforcement Squad.

What you don't consider 50 pages off ishy

its under STRMIN pg 376-377 ish I think.

Was looking through Fred about STRMIN earlier and forgot a little tidbit that might make that 15 STRMIN more acceptable, using a weapon braced reduces the STRMIN by 5, so that Garand becomes STRMIN 10, if you consider just standing out there loosely holding a Garand at the shoulder a -1 OCV for the typical shooter may not be far off, remember most of us have experince sitting at a firing range slumped over a bench (braced and or set) not blazing away on a battlefield. If you think about walking (standing still would be braced or set I always mix those two up) and firing that rifle from the shoulder or hip -1 OCV is actually pretty kind.

I'll look into the limited AP, I don't think it will work in this case but I might find a use for it elsewhere. Yes I'm one of those who looks for the effect, I don't generally try to munchkinise rules and often miss the potential for abuses, this also makes me a sucker for point stretchers and rules lawyers (I generally get about 200 points of effectiveness out of 250 points). Thank you that is a very good explaination and I can see where a number of issues come up, the first is Supers vs Heroic gaming. My intent is for firearms in heroic games so death of the target is not an issue, if the trigger is pulled in a case that death is not an acceptable outcome a crime has still been committed (attempted murder) so the safety issue really doesn't apply, in a Supers game where such attacks can be thrown about without repercussion unless a death occured I can see how it could be an advantage. As far as the rdef vs nrdef I was going on the assumption that since there had been rdef the attack would still treat the target as having rdef, it is still based on a KA and just removing def before the main attack, not eliminating it like a transformation power. Also the levels we are talking about are well out of the scale I intend to use it, for an attack to have 10 levels I'm looking at a 120mm tank gun doing 6d6 RKA, a 2d6 RKA would have 3 levels at best. I still don't see the problem with the lim as I took no stun -3/4 right out of the book as a basis and further limited it and reduced the amount of the lim. Now if you have a problem with the value of the no stun lim then I can see why you wouldn't accept only vs def as a lim. Other powers I have tried on the old board to replicate Piercing had flaws due to them violating the written rules (drain and suppress were earlier attempts but the rules specifically state that vs defences they go last which defeats the point of the power). I think this looks like the best way to handle the power but I can see the potential for abuse, 3 or 4 pts depending on the view of the value of the only vs def lim, since its heroic and points are not paid by the character the actual cost really doesn't matter to much so I can live with that. Thanks for the help, hope I didn't cause you a case of apoplexy (WHY DOESN"T THIS GUY GET IT!!!!!!! bonk bonk bonk)

Ok, first of all I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to build "piercing" within the 5th guidelines, if I just wanted to fake it I'd just use piercing and all the old DI weapon rules that I like better and be done with it. What I was trying to say is that I don't care if the power should have a stop sign, it probably should. But I am trying to build it within the rules so as not to raise eyebrows to much if encountered at a neutral location such as a con. The intent is not so much to have it be 3 points as to have it be somewhat acceptable to the world outside, if I can keep it the same price it saves me the trouble of recalculating some figures. So KA, -1/4 (-1/2?) only vs Def (no stun, no body), -1/4 no knockback, -0 standard effect Look about right? As far as it being better than AP I still don't follow your math for it being better. If I have a character with a 2d6AP RKA (45 points) and a character with a 2d6 RKA linked to 10pts of "piercing" (60 pts). Using both to attack a target with 20 def, the effect is the same, a 2d6 RKA against 10 pts of def, except the attack using "Piercing" costs more. I understand that against a target with less def, the "piercing" gets an advantage as it strips away more than 1/2 the armor but going the otherway AP gets the advantage and costs 1/2 as much. So against 10 pts of def the AP attack still faces 5 pts while the "piercing" attack has none, but against 30 points of rdef the AP attack faces 15 pts and the "piercing" attack faces 20. How is that unbalanced unless you are playing in a game where all have 20 pts or less def which would be a case of limiting how much one could take. I think perhaps we are each making assumptions on how it works that the other is not. I am assuming it only effects def once whether resistant or not, not slicing off 10 points from each. I am also assuming Hardend would have the same effect on "piercing" as it does on AP which is to cancel it unless bought to work against hardend armor. I do appreciate the assistance hope I didn't give the impression I didn't.

STRMIN is an area HERO has traditionally run into a problem with. Generally the STRMIN is based on the point cost of the weapon, this is nice for balance but does not always make sense from a realistic point of view. As mentionaed in the post above in the case of weapons STRMIN relates to the STR required to use the weapon well, in the case f the M1 a 10 Str (normal) would suffer a -1 to accuracy, this does become a little strange if you think about it too much, STRMIN has also tended to be increased as the weapons weight increases where in fact if STRMIN is recoil this should be the opposite and why should a heavy weapon be harder to use from a prone braced position. So don't think about it too hard. As to the 12 Gauge and .30-06 I belive they are pretty close to the same value if you look on a chart comparing recoil energy, its just that shotguns use faster burning powders and so the impact is deleivered to your shoulder more abruptly, much as a semi auto weapons recoil "feels" lighter than a bolt gun, because it is delivered over a slightly longer period. I'm playing around with some alternate methods of figuring STRMIN but still have a way to go.

And this is differant from AP how? AP would take off 10 points of DEF for 15 points, "piercing" does it for 30, larger attacks just increase the cost ineffectiveness. It also does no body or stun so it is next to useless against unarmored targets, only striping away some non resistant defense which doesn't apply to KA's anyway. I am trying to build "piercing" as a smaller version of AP for a specific purpose, to allow more variety between weapons. So a .44 Magnum would be a 2d6 RKA and a 5.56mm Assault rifle would have 2d6 RKA and 2 levels of piercing. Against an unarmored target they are basically identical but when armor gets involved the rifle is more effective than the .44 which is how it should be. When I get to Tank guns it becomes even more useful and hopefully will allow some variation without making them instant death to everything around them. Basically what I am looking for is if this "looks" legal, I am planning it to be under GM control so a magnifying glass, stop sign or Dirty Harry pointing a BFG at me saying "think about it punk" doesn't concern me, just does it violate any existing rules.

I figured only vs DEF is at least as limiting as no stun since DEF takes no stun then by default the attack causes no stun. Either way it rounds to 3 so -1/4 could work. I guess this could be done to whittle down armor but I intend it to be linked to an attack so the effect is not long lasting more of a limited AP.

Ok, on the old boards I was trying to find a way to make piercing (old power from Champs 3, each level reduced 1 point of defense) RKA 1DC = 5 pts Limitations only vs DEF Body -3/4 (using no stun for comparison which is also -3/4) Standard effect +0 (this keeps each level to 1 pip instead of rolling) Total cost 2.8 round up to 3, so 3 pts per level which is the same cost as Piercing vs resistant defense in C3. Any unforseen problems with this attempt?

Never said HERO didn't have some good foder for Murphy's rules. In your example I'd allow a flash attack with a hefty to hit penalty, in the short term the effect is similar and if the attacker wants the victim to be blinded permanently they can always scoop out ther eyes with a spoon once their down. If they start making this a regular attack I'd make them buy it. Don't forget CSL's can be used to do extra damage typically with the special effect of hitting a more vulnerable spot. So in the Jugular example allowing a special to hit for a better damage roll is sort of short circuiting rules HERO has already dealt with with CSL's and the die rolling mechanic. As to the hit locations I'm sure the HERO Cops won't kick in your door for making up a more detailed chart. But hey its your game, I was just pointing out the Pandoras box you might be opening if you start letting players make such attacks a regular occurance.

Letting people make up hit locations for special effects without making it a part of something they paid for is just opening up a can of worms. Id think that the Jugular veins and Carotid arteries (far more dangerous but located deeper in the neck) are already factored into the head hit location, otherwise soon your players will be buying greys anatomy and pulling this every week, I want to go for the femoral artery (hit location 14 thigh), lower decending aorta (stomach, groin 12, 13), take a shot at the kidneys, slice his hamstring or achilles tendon etc. These are all valid considerations for special martial maneuvers that are bought, otherwise I'd just stick with the hit locations as they stand or make up a super detailed hit location.

Ok, I'll start with giving weapons some personality. Special features of general classes of weapons Axes, +1DC Swords, +1 OCV Maces / hammers, Penetrating Picks, AP Hooked weapons, may use grab manuever only to pull an opponent off a horse or off balance.

On the old board I started the axes vs maces thread which eventually grew to include a lot of good ideas for handling weapons. Since the old boards are not available at least for now and since Conquest and the impending arrival of FH later this year has the fantasy weapons lobe of my brain going into overtime I thought I'd try to get people to share their ideas on giving weapons and armor more personality. Anything weapons and armor is fair game, good books, TV series, movies etc, individual opinions, Use of UMA for martial maneuvers, ideas for building weapons, armor etc.

Ok, now I see where you are coming from, haven't had the problem you describe but I can understand where the problems could arise.

I understand where you are coming from in the ability to disbelieve and I agree that this is a problem if you expect the game world to reflect tommorrows headlines, but assuming you start with the world as it is today and accept that from this point forward it is no longer identical to tommorrow I don't see the problem, on Sept 10th an airliner crashing into the world trade center was outlandish fantasy, now not so much. Assassination of a national leader? depending on the theorys this has happend many times, several Soviet leaders died mysteriously, there were attempts of DeGaul and our own JFK and Reagan. Sure these are wriiten off as kooks or in the Soviets case Colds, but if you allow the conspiracy theories a little more acceptance then a shadowy world protected from the outside by plants in the press and government make this far more acceptable. I don't see how you can enjoy any RPG's from the argument you give (suspension of disbelief) perhaps I am missing your point.