Toadmaster

I've heard that before, supposedly that tactic also caused some (presumably less experienced) tankers to bail out, since the smoke tended to fill the tank, some crews thought their tank was burning.

Wow, it never fails to amaze me what will come up as broken with HERO. I've been playing since 1st Ed Champions and have played FH since 85-86 (whenever it came out) and have yet to agree with the proposed changes people put forward. Never have found one yet that troubled me before or after the arguments. You can put me on the "it ain't broke so don't fix it" side of the argument.

Ok, I guess I'll be reading up on Clips, I had no idea these things could be done with them. Thanks.

I agree the STR table is not so great for Heroic games, I find even with Champions that the 2x every 5pts is high. I was looking into a doubling at every 10 pts, but I like your idea too. That is one thing I wish had been addressed in 5th ed, what works in Champions may not work so well for less spandex clad action.

Maybe I'm reading this differantly, but what I'm seeing is an intentional disregard for the disadvantages of heavy armor. Realistically heavy armor is heavy, hot, expensive, causes poor perception, sinks, conducts electricity and heat / cold well, takes a lot of time and requires assistance to put on, requires a big horse to carry it, historically was not used when light weapons were used and may be limited by law to higher social classes. So all the practical reasons people did not wear armor is apparently not acceptable to Yamo's players, yet heavy armor is the problem, of course heavy armor is unbalanced if you throw out all the things that make it balanced. Thats why I say its silly, if I am reading this wrong I apologize. As far as light fighters being ineffective, I have played many since the first ed FH came out, played lots in 4th ed, I don't have the new FH yet but unless there have been drastic changes I don't see the problem, that is assuming heavy armor is treated as heavy armor (with all the problems associated), I played several characters with heavy armor as well and they typically met more gruesome ends than the light weights.

I don't mean this to be insulting, but if your players are that insistant that Fantasy Hero be just like D&D, you would probably be better off playing D&D. Ignoring the realities of armor and weapons doesn't work, comparing the use of historical context with magic is similarly intentionally dense, a lightning bolt is a lightning bolt, the physics works, it is just the manor that it is delivered (from a spell caster instead of a cloud formation), if that is too much disbelief then I can't imagine how there is an interest in playing a fantasy RPG, reality would be lets find enough to eat without getting oppressed by a cranky noble, not much fun for me. This discussion is quickly becoming as silly as some of the comics vs reality discussions I've seen. If the armor is such a problem for you and you don't want to change to D&D perhaps you should charge points for everything so the heavily armored fighter costs the same as the swashbuckler. HERO was not written to be D&D, with a lot of work that is possible but why?

Still waiting for my copy but in the meantime... When Fred came out there was much discussion about how boring the fantasy weapons were. Has FH addressed this at all, there were a number of good ideas presented on the forums so I'm hoping FH has added a lot more flavor to the weapons section. Come on those of you fortunate enough to have already recieved your copies, put down the book for a minute and share with your less fortunate bretheren.

I don't have the new FH either (impatiently waiting on my order) but why not just assume studded leather is equal to the next armor up, so soft studded leather = heavy leather armor, heavy with studs = boiled and boiled with studs = brigantine (which I believe is basically boiled leather reinforced with with metal). Or perhaps allow studs to add 1 DEF with an activation roll. Since I haven't seen the new armor section I just guessing at this point.

I think the problem is you are looking at armor from too much of a gaming / rules angle, yes a prepared fighter in plate in a stand up fight has the advantage. Regardless of cost there are many other ways heavy armor restricts the wearer. Its hot, put that 8 DEF fighter in the desert with the 20 dex cloth armor wearing fencer, role play the heat. It blocks vision (just a little slit to look out of) and hearing (small holes over the ears at best), put the party in close confines with bad things initiating attacks with move bys / move throughs to knock them down. That DEX guy will probably save the day walking point and by being the only one on his feet. This might also cause the characters to remove their helmets, nice DEF 0 head shots are now palitable to the enemy. Its also hard to communicate in a heavy helmet, make the players roll PER to understand each other in all but the best conditions. " Look out for the A) Trap, Cliff, C) Red Dragon by A) the rock, the Ogre C) your foot" It sinks, put the party on a boat, there is a reason sailors don't wear metal armor. Use electrical attacks, make sure to give a bonus against matal armor (perhaps AoE 1 hex vs metal but standard attack vs non conductive armor such as leather, this gives Mr. Dex a double advantage). Heavy armor takes time to put on and usually requires assistance. Ambush the party while they are resting or sleeping, The Dexter will not be at much of a disadvantage since his primary means of defense is not getting hit. Don't let the players wear heavy armor on long journeys, it is uncomfortable and only meant to be worn before entering combat, Excalibur aside it is not evening wear. I'm sure you can come up with other ways to limit heavy armor, limiting armor in this way is no more GM abuse than telling players they can have assault rifles but the cops will put them in jail if caught, otherwise why don't all characters in modern games carry M16's.

There have already been a number of good suggestions so I won't repeat them. I played in several FH campaigns over the years and one of the GM's I played with a lot twice converted the campaign back to D&D because he felt HERO was to lethal. As far as heavy armor, it does tend to make one immune to damage, but using all the optional rules it becomes less so, multiple attackers bonus, hit locations, etc. I had one character with a set of DEF 8 plate, at first I could just wade into battle but after a few battles the GM got smart, many of the bad guys would gang up to get the multiple attackers bonus, then somebody with a pick or maul would take a head shot, as I recall the chracter died in the first battle the GM tried out his new tactics. Another thing to limit heavy armor is make sure to include all the down sides, use long term endurance, game out putting on or taking off the armor (it takes quite some time), nothing like getting attacked while sleeping and having to fight in long johns while the leather wearing rogue becomes the tank for the day. Metal armor is hot and noisy, and it sinks, put the characters on a boat now and then. In general if the game includes much travelling as opposed to just dungeon crawls most players will probably willingly opt for scale or chain at the heaviest.

As far as simulating tank combat, I don't know yet, I've been playing with a number of ideas because HERO is a little abstract at that level, basically a 75mm M3 does 5d6, an 88mm does 5 1/2 and a 120mm as on the Abrams does 6 1/2d6 (not 8d6). So there isn't much wiggle room. Death Traps is a good book, I was actually thinking of giving the Sherman a +1 to mechanics rolls because it was apparently very forgiving of battle damage and parts easily exchanged from one to another, anyway my impression was that it was easier to maintain than many others of the time. I would think that crew hits will probably be the prime method of eliminating a tank but I haven't played out a tank battle with HERO yet.

For size I go by the dimensions and then bump the BODY and STR up to match the weight. I figured the DCV penalties and such should be based on the vehicles size and it seems easier to adjust for weight than to do the reverse. That is just how I interpreted the size table, not that it is right. How are others doing it? The accuracy issue may be true, again it is just based off a table based around each doubling. In one of my other posts I was looking for a solution to the rate of fire (basically having to reload between each shot), but the only suggestion so far was to put the charges into single round clips, haven't given that much thought yet, so not sure what I think of that. But I agree the main gun fires too fast. Yeah the turret and hull were differant but HERO is already vague enough at this level that I figured it wasn't worth the effort. The 1DC per 5mm is just for HE rounds, I also add 10% for low velocity gun like the 75mm M3 or 7.5cm L/24. The DC for kinetic rounds is based off of muzzle energy. Finally I also agree the Sherman gets compared to the Panther and Tiger far more than is fair, compared to the Panzer 4 which was really the most likely encounter it was pretty evenly matched (Panzer 4 had a better gun, the Sherman had better armor) but the Panzer 4 kinda looked like a Tiger when decked out with all the shields and stuff. I'll have to keep that in mind as a positive DF when I do the Panzer 4.

I took the first 2 disadvantages from the Abrams and Bradley writeups in TUV. I don't know that I would have put them that high either but then again maybe if I was looking over my pop gun rifle at a tank I might feel differant, on the other hand if I were commanding a Tiger I'd probaly be thinking DF-easy target. As far as the damage and stun mods, I have a chart I made that gave me those based on +1 for each doubling of the calculations, it works well at the lower levels so I assume it should be right for the upper levels, for the HE I just use a 1d6 per 5mm of the gun, which again seems to match previously published figures (120mm would equal 24d6, the M1's 120mm gun does 8d6 RKA which would be 24d6 as a normal explosion). This is also intended for heroic games, for a supers game I advocate wimping tanks down. My description is kind of hard on the Sherman but I actually fall into the group that thinks it was a pretty effective tank, but popular opinion tends to be it was a POS. I read somewhere that the experience showed that 5 Shermans were needed to counter 1 Panther, luckily it was built in number to allow a 10 to 1 advantage. Thanks for the comments, I figured if I can get the bugs worked out of this one the rest should be easy.

M4 Sherman – Medium tank Val Char Cost Notes 5 Size 25 3.2x1.6", -5 KB, -3 DCV 53 STR 18 Lift 37 tons, 10d6 HtH [0] 10 DEX 0 OCV:3 / DCV:3 18 BODY 6 12 DEF 30 3 SPD 10 Movement Ground: 13†/ 26†Defense 18 / 12 Description: This was the primary US medium tank during World War 2. It was also widely used by other Allied nations. The M4 proved to be a very rugged and reliable tank and was well received when it was introduced. Unfortunately the 75mm M3 gun had been designed for use as an infantry support weapon and its anti-armor capability was marginal, the M4 was also prone to catching on fire when hit, which led to the nickname “Ronsonâ€, a common brand of cigarette lighter known for the slogan “it lights every timeâ€. These traits did nothing to inspire the confidence of M4 crews and it was generally considered to be inferior to the German tanks it faced. There were many improvements made to address these problems, the best of these was the introduction of a high velocity 76mm gun. Most of the M4’s built were gasoline powered but some used diesel engines. Nearly all of the diesel powered tanks were issued to the USMC or the USSR , the performance was nearly identical regardless of the engine type, although the diesel powered versions were less likely to burn. The M4 has a crew of 5. A .50 caliber machinegun is provided on the turret deck for the tank commander. The main gun has a coaxial .30 caliber machinegun mounted alongside it in the turret. By 1944 many M4’s were also armed with a 2†smoke mortar in the turret top, this weapon could be operated without leaving the protection of the armor. Another .30 caliber machinegun is located in the hull front; the gun is operated by the assistant driver. Abilities & Equipment Motorized Tracked Military Vehicle: 11 pts End [1cc] Ground movement +7†(13†total); Only on appropriate terrain (-1/4), 1 continuing fuel charge (easily obtained fuel; 5 hours; -0) 75mm M3 tank gun: 238 pts Range 1000" Rmod +7 Multi-power (283 pts), 97 charges (+¾); OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼), Charges must be assigned to slots when re-supplied (-¼) Armor Piercing (188 pts) RKA 5d6, +7 Increased STUN multiplier (+1 ¾), Beam (-¼) High Explosive (149 pts) Energy blast 17d6, Explosion (+½), Increased maximum range (+¼) Incendiary / smoke (283 pts) Energy blast 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC per 2â€; +¾), Increased maximum range (+¼), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+½), 0 Endurance (effects last for 1 minute; +½), (120 pts) RKA 3d6, Area of effect (9†radius; +1¼), Increased maximum range (+¼), 0 Endurance (+½), Reduced penetration (-¼), Linked (-½) (101 pts) Change environment – Smoke (-3 to sight group), 16†radius, Increased maximum range (+½), Uncontrolled (+½), 0 Endurance (effects last for 1 minute; +½), Linked (-½) (62 pts) .30 cal M1919A4: 94 pts (2500 rds of ammo) RKA 2d6+1, +1 STUN multiplier (+¼), 0 Endurance (+1), Autofire (10 shots; +1), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼), OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼) +1 OCV, Rmod +2 +4 OCV, linked to Autofire (+1 for 3 shots, +2 for 5 shots, +4 for 10 shots; -½) Second .30 cal M1919A4 mounted in hull, Limited arc of fire (60 degree arc; - ½) 3pts (2500 rds of ammo) .50 cal M2HB: 143 pts (500 rds of ammo) RKA 3d6, +3 STUN multiplier (+¾), 0 Endurance (+1), Autofire (10 shots; +1), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼),OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼) +1 OCV, Rmod +4 +4 OCV, linked to Autofire (+1 for 3 shots, +2 for 5 shots, +4 for 10 shots; -½) 2†smoke mortar: 13 pts (20 rds of ammo) Change environment (-4 vs sight group) 2†radius, 0 Endurance (+½), Uncontrolled (effects last for 1 minute; +½), Gradual effect (1 turn, post-segment 12; -¼), OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼) 0 Heavy armor: 8 pts Hardened armor (12 DEF) Front armor: 10 pts +6 DEF, Hardened (+¼), Limited coverage (front 60 degrees; -1) Radio: 5pts Radio perception / transmission, OIF Bulky (-1) Skills Targeting system: 4 pts +2 vs. Range with turret weapons (main gun, coax machine gun) Total abilities & equipment cost: 618 pts Disadvantages -25 Distinctive features: US Army tank (Not concealable; causes extreme reaction) -5 Physical limitation: Turret weapons must point at same target (Infrequent, Slight) -10 Physical limitation: Ammo and fuel easily ignited when hit, any damage result indicating damage to fuel or weapon systems will cause a fire resulting in a massive explosion (3d6 generalized killing damage) 1d6 segments after taking damage. (Infrequent, greatly) -10 Reputation: Easily set on fire by combat damage. Total disadvantage points: -50 Total vehicle cost: 568 Actual cost: 114

This is my first attempt at a vehicle, any comments, criticisims or corrections happily accepted.

Trying to figure out how to make an attack that sticks to the target, reading sticky, I don't think that works. As examples of what I'm trying to build would be napalm, clearly an AoE but one shold not just be able to run out of the effect area to stop that damage, they are covered in burning goo and should continue burning regardless of whether they stay in the area or not. Sticky would be appropriate to cause people coming into contact with them to be affected as well but my interpretation of sticky would not cause the attack to stick to someone leaving the area.

When I hear the terms heroic and superheroic the first thing I think is you can pick up "normal" equipment in game (don't have to pay points) or you must pay for everything with points. I realize that there are also connotations of point value ut this is secondary to me. In my opinion only costumed superheros really belong in the superheroic game, the restriction against keeping equipment you find is part of the genre, the Hulk may pick up Thor's hammer to bash him but he would never stick it in his belt for next weeks comic. In a Heroic game Hulk would think, "hammer smash good, Hulk take". So based on my perception of the terms pulp with extrememly powerful heroes (Doc Savage etc) would generally fall into the very high point value heroic, but something like the Shadow would probably fit better into superheroic.

Trying to build a Sherman tank, aka Ronson or Tommy lighter. The Sherman had a bad reputation of catching fire and burning violently when it took a hit. I am assuming this would be a physical lim but TUV touches very lightly on these. Basically I'm thinking this would use a modified hit chart with a much higher chance of fire results than the normal tank hit chart. I also considered vulnerability but that seems less appropriate, also part of the problem is the effect only occurs if the armor is penetrated. Any help appreciated. Second part is vehicular reputations, it is not clear to me if these reps are restricted to the effect the reputation has on the crew or the vehicle itself. Having a reputation for poor reliability or burning when hit would clearly be allowed if the vehicle were a character but these really have no effect on the owner. A vehicle with such a reputation would be disadvantaged from a sellers perspective (nobody wants a tank that is likely to be their crematorium) but as the the vehicle itself so what, are its feelings going to be hurt if people think badly of it? So basically I'm not sure if a reputaion that really only effects the vehicle is really a disadvantage like it would be with a character.

Trying to figure out what kind of lim loading a weapon would be, specifically weapons that take at least 1 phase to reload after each shot such as a cannon. I was considering extra time but that would not allow you to have a round in the chamber (no extra time for the first shot), perhaps extra time one level down (or is it up) the chart so the cost is lim is slightly less valuable since the first shot is not counted. I would assume magazine fed weapons which only need a 1/2 to 1 phase action after many shots would either be -0 or just considered part of the real weapon lim, but weapons that take time after each shot should be worth at least -1/4 in my opinion, but what lim?. Have I just missed this someplace, if not any one have ideas?

I realize the differance in source, it is that differance that I thought would be fitting for an American character (since we are typically portrayed as shallow, ill educated and addicted to TV violence).

I've run into this on a few occasions at cons, the worst I remember was a DI game, the GM ripped my character for the number of points in disadvantages without even reading what they were, yet had no problem with some of the other players some of who in my opinion had high point disadvantages that I didn't think should have been worth anything (they came from the GM's game outside of the con), other issues were things my usual GM didn't charge for but the Con GM did which also caused some concern. One of the things I really like about these boards is that although you will never have 100% agreement at least it raises the number of people you can get opinions from and also find the least controversial ways to do things.

I agree the situation would determine the value, that is true of most of HERO, in a Champions game a Sherman tank having 97 charges (30+ of each type of ammo) would probably not become an issue since reloads are generally going to be available after each fight so I could see a -0 lim, but in a Wartime campaign it would be worth more since it is likely the crew will go through several fights before getting reloads and it is likely the user will be stuck with less ideal rounds before getting back to base (-1/2). So I can see how as a generic lim -1/4 should be reasonable.

This goes more to the other thread I started but The only problem I have with putting the charges on the individual slots is that they can not be adjusted in play. So in the archery example the player has exploding, AP, gas and shock arrows. If the charges are on the slots than he must always have 4 Ex, 4 AP, 2 Gas, and 2 Shock arrows, while putting 12 charges on the whole MP with a lim that they must be selected before play allows the character to have a quiver of 1 dozen assorted arrows tailor fit to the expectations of the game session. Might make sense in some situations to have the selection be static but seems artificial for most that I can think of. As far as the 0 end vs 1000 charges the advantage I see to 0 End is that assuming the real weapon lim is used the character is limited in how much ammo is carried but can be assumed to scavenge ammo from similar weapons to explain reloading, while my understanding of charges, allowing fairly easy reloads is frowned on.

When Change environment has a penalty to perception is this per hex or just for being in the area. It would make sense to me that looking at a target through 4" of -3 PER pea soup fog would result in a -12 to PER since there is more thick fog in the way and this would greatly reduce ones range of vision (just like real fog). However I can not find anything in the description to support or dispute this. Thanks

I thought Jim West from Wild, Wild, West (Robert Conrad, not Will Smith) would have been a nice choice for an American, the show was shortly after the Civil War so the older Conrad wouldbe about right and it seems appropriate for the American to be based on a TV show rather than literature (fits us better). Of course from a story point it would have added another "old guy" and the interaction between Sawyer and Quartermain would not have worked with West unless they made him younger.