Toadmaster

AF vs single shot at range, I hadn't really thought about it but in earlier versions of HERO Rmod was a -1 / x# inches (-1/3" etc) AF cut this in 1/2 so that -1/3" was only -1/2" on AF. Something I didn't mention but I was thinking that with the larger Rmod bonuses is that the Rmod should only apply to braced or set shooting or at least only part should apply, unless braced and or set. Perhaps only the velocity based Rmod should apply to regular shooting (faster bullets have less drop and are effected less by wind etc) by taking a little more time these can be adjusted for. An AF3 weapon should be "better" than an AF10 weapon, thats why 3 rd bursts are prefered they are more efficient, but the AF will be much handier for suppression or spraying multiple targets. I suppose you could provide a wind penalty and subtract part of it with the stun mod (since the higher stun mod tends to apply to heavier bullets). There have been a few discussions about shooting through cover, about the only thing that makes sense to me is to ignore the barriers body and only use the defense of it, if the bullet does more damage than the DEF the remainder passes on to hit the hit location originally rolled minus that absorbed by the barrier.

I'm afraid that post is lost until (if) DoJ is able to get the files from the old board and make them available again. If it is the one I think you are talking about, I participated quite a bit as did Nusord Graphite and Gewing, there was another individual who seemed quite knowledgable and who argued knowledgably against almost all of my concepts but now I can not remember who that was, I have not seen anybody pop up in gun discussions since on a regular basis except the two listed above. An excellant book if you are so inclined is Understanding Ballistics here is a link to it at amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964559846/qid=1050533752/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2049011-6184907?v=glance&s=books This is one of the best books on ballistics I've found, it is written toward the avaerage person who may not have much knowledge about guns, because of the wide audiance it is aimed at it covers almost everything a gamer could want except for actual game conversions.

You might look at this thread also http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2267&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 Sorry Nusord but I beat you to the answer about a week before the question was posted

Damage DC Damage (N) Damage (K) Energy (Ft/lbs) Energy (Joules) 1 1d6 1 pip Up to 74 Up to 100 2 2d6 1/2 d6 75 - 110 101 - 150 2+ 2d6 1d6-1 111 - 147 151 - 200 3 3d6 1d6 148 - 294 201 - 400 4 4d6 1d6+1 295 - 588 401 - 800 5 5d6 1 1/2 d6 589 - 882 801 - 1,200 5+ 5d6 2d6-1 883 - 1,176 1,201 - 1,600 6 6d6 2d6 1,177 - 2,352 1,601 - 3,200 7 7d6 2d6+1 2,353 - 4,704 3,201 - 6,400 8 8d6 2 1/2 d6 4,705 - 7,056 6,401 - 9,600 8+ 8d6 3d6-1 7,057 - 9,408 9,601 - 12,800 9 9d6 3d6 9,409 - 18,375 12,801 - 25,000 10 10d6 3d6+1 18,376 - 36,750 25,001 - 50,000 11 11d6 3 1/2 d6 36,751 - 55,125 50,001 - 75,000 11+ 11d6 4d6-1 55,126 - 73,500 75,001 - 100,000 12 12d6 4d6 73,501 - 147,000 100,001 - 200,000 13 13d6 4d6+1 147,001 - 294,000 200,001 - 400,000 14 14d6 4 1/2 d6 294,001 - 441,000 400,001 - 600,000 14+ 14d6 5d6-1 441,001 - 588,000 600,001 - 800,000 15 15d6 5d6 588,001 - 1,176,000 800,001 - 1,600,000 16 16d6 5d6+1 1,176,001 - 2,352,000 1,600,001 - 3,200,000 17 17d6 5 1/2 d6 2,352,001 - 3,528,000 3,200,001 - 4,800,000 17+ 17d6 6d6-1 3,528,001 - 4,704,000 4,800,001 - 6,400,000 18 18d6 6d6 4,704,001 - 9,408,000 6,400,001 - 12,800,000 19 19d6 6d6+1 9,408,001 - 18,375,000 12,800,001 - 25,000,000 20 20d6 6 1/2 d6 18,375,001 - 27,562,500 25,000,001 - 37,500,000 20+ 20d6 7d6-1 27,562,501 - 36,750,000 37,500,001 - 50,000,000 21 21d6 7d6 36,750,001 - 73,500,000 50,000,001 - 100,000,000 Stun Stun mod = bullet weight (Grams) x Caliber (mm) + (Velocity (meters/sec) / 20) Stun mod (20mm +) = Caliber (mm) squared x2 Total Stun X 0 - 99 +0 100 - 199 +1 200 - 399 +2 400 - 799 +3 800 - 1599 +4 1600 - 3199 +5 3200 - 6399 +6 6400 - 12,799 +7 12,800 - 25,599 +8 25,600 - 51,199 +9 51,200 - 102,400 +10 Piercing Muzzle velocity (Ft/sec) Muzzle velocity (m/sec) Levels of piercing 0 - 987 0 - 299 0 988 - 1977 300 - 599 1 1978 - 3977 600 - 1199 2 3978 - 8247 1200 - 2499 3 Muzzle energy (Ft/lbs) Muzzle energy (Joules) Levels of piercing 7,350 10,000 2 14,700 20,000 3 29,400 40,000 4 58,800 80,000 5 117,600 160,000 6 235,200 320,000 7 470,400 640,000 8 882,000 1,200,000 9 1,764,000 2,400,000 10 3,528,000 4,800,000 11 7,056,000 9,600,000 12 14,112,000 19,200,000 13 Range Mod Velocity (Ft/sec) Velocity (m/sec) Range Mod 0 - 822 0 - 249 +0 823 - 1647 250 - 499 +1 1648 - 2472 500 - 749 +2 2473 - 3297 750 - 999 +3 3298 - 4122 1000 - 1249 +4 4123 - 4947 1250 - 1499 +5 4948 - 5772 1500 - 1749 +6 Barrel Length Barrel (in / cm) OCV RMOD Str Min Mod Less than 2" Less than 5cm +1 -4 -2 2 to 3" 5 to 7.6cm +1 -3 -1 3 to 4.5" 7.6 to 12cm +1 -2 +0 4.5 to 6.75" 12 to 17cm +0 +0 +1 6.75 to 10" 17 to 25cm +0 +1 +2 10 to 15" 25 to 38cm -1 +3 +3 15 to 22.5" 38 to 57cm -2 +5 +4 22.5 to 34" 57 to 86cm -2 +6 +5 34 to 51" 86 to 130cm -3 +8 +6 51 to 77" 130 to 196cm -4 +10 +7 77 to 116" 196 to 300cm -5 +12 +8 Size Overall length (in / cm) Concealment Dex Mod > 3.9" >10cm +0 -1 3.9 - 5.9" 10 - 15cm +1 -1 6 - 9.9" 15 - 25cm +2 -2 10 - 15.8" 25 - 40cm +3 -3 15.9 - 25.6" 40 - 65cm +4 -4 25.7 - 37.4" 65 - 95cm +5 -5 37.5 - 53.2" 95 - 135cm +6 -5 53.3" + 135cm + +7 -6 (Bulky) Other modifiers Special feature Effect Improved accuracy, minor modifications +1 RMOD Improved accuracy, major modifications +2 RMOD Improved accuracy, engineered for accuracy +3 RMOD Open bolt -1 RMOD Poor quality weapon -1 RMOD Shoulder stock -5 STRMIN Folding stock Reduce overall length 1 level when folded Detachable stock (pistol) -5 STRMIN, adds 1 level to overall length Integral Suppressor -10% STRMIN Muzzle Brake -30% STRMIN Recoil reduction -10% STRMIN Bipod -10 STRMIN Autofire STRMIN and OCV increased, see chart below Bulky 1/2 DCV Arrangement Must be set up before use Autofire Rate of fire OCV Bonus Str Min 3 +1 +1 5 +2 +3 8 +3 +4 10 +4 +5 13 +5 +7 15 +6 +8 18 +7 +9 20 +8 +10 23 +9 +12 25 +10 +13 Effects of muzzle blast DC of attack Per mod (hearing) Per mod (sight) Flash vs hearing (Ex, -1 DC per 2") 1 +1 +0 0 2 +2 +0 1d6 3-4 +3 +1 2d6 5-8 +4 +2 3d6 9-16 +5 +3 4d6 17+ +6 +4 5d6 Sonic crack only +3 N/a 0 Muzzle blast modifiers Device Per mod (hearing) Per mod (sight) Flash Muzzle blast suppressor -2 -3 -1d6 Sound suppressor -3 -3 -2d6 High volume sound suppressor -5 -3 -3d6 Muzzle brake +1 +1 N/a Subsonic ammunition -1 +0 N/a Short barrel +1 +2 N/a Very short barrel +2 +3 +1d6 Black powder N/a +2 N/a

Ok, here is the more out there version I have been working on, this will give you numbers very differant from what you find in HERO sources, but I think it should work very well for "realistic" games at a cost of some additional work. Damage and stun remain the same, I've added a "piercing" stat, this does not cause extra damage but allows some bullets to penetrate armor better, penetration is based largely on velocity so I have based Piercing on velocity, all things being equal a faster bullet will penetrate better. Finding values for cannons and such is much harder than for small arms so I also have included a method based on energy which doesn't really have an effect until 20mm+. Range mod is affected by barrel length since a longer barrel tends to be more accurate, but velocity also plays a part, the faster a bullet flies the flatter the trajectory will be which makes it easier for the shooter to hit the target, so I have based rmod on barrel length but also have a bonus based on the muzzle velocity of the bullet. I have included a dex mod and concealment mod based on the overall weapon length, longer weapons are harder to hide and are clumsier in tight spaces, the dex mod is only used to determine things like who goes first (if two shooters have the same dex but one has a pistol and one a rifle, the pistol gets to shoot first). These are further modified by add ons like folding stocks. I've included RMOD improvements for highly accurate weapons, the lowest level represents a stock weapon with minor improvements, generally this is just a stock weapon which has been hand fitted and selected at the factory (weapons are fired before shipping, those which shoot better than average are set aside for conversion to target weapons), may also include some changes such as a heavy barrel or a better stock, this could include a weapon like the Colt AR-15 HB, or match grade versions of the M14. The next level includes weapons with fairly substantial improvements, these include all of the abve but also include better quality parts replacing stock parts, adjustible stocks etc. This would include most "sniper" weapons such as the H&K PSG-1 or Tactical versions of high quality hunting rifles such as the US Marine Corps M40A1. The highest level includes weapons which are designed from the ground up as target weapons, this would include many olympic grade .22 rifles or a weapon like the Walther WA-2000, these are not just conversions of existing rifles. Many automatic weapons fire from an open bolt position, this means the bolt is held back until the trigger is pulled, the slight shift resulting from the bolt moving forward before the bullet fires can disrupt the shooters aim, the advantage is these weapons rarely overheat and runaway. There are many differant attempts to reduce a weapons recoil, these typically either use some form of muzzle brake to divert the gasses, resulting in a larger muzzle blast but less recoil, or some form of energy absorption in the stick, this ranges from a simple pad on the shoulder stock to complicated shock absorber systems in the stock. Suppressors slow gasses trying to escape the muzzle and as a result they reduce recoil to some extent as well as lower noise and flash. I like the old ways when AF gave a bonus to hit at the expense of greater recoil, I have included a chart that I am using. Finally I have included a chart for the effects of muzzle blast, these are bonuses for people to see and hear a gun shot, I have based these on DC for simplicity, generally more powerful weapons are louder. If you have ever fired a gun with or without ear protection you know they are loud, for those who like the extra complication I have included suggested levels of flash vs hearing, the level has been bought up one so the explosion loses 5pts per 2" or roughly 1d6 per 1 ". I believe ear plugs are listed in FRED as 3 levels of flash defense which would protect against most rifles. Some suppressed weapons fire supersonic ammo, resulting in a quiet shot but still including a sonic boom from the bullet, for those cases use the sonic crack only row, while this announces a shot it is harder to determine the direction since it is heard as the bullet passes the target, not when the rifle fires. And last is a chart of modifiers to the muzzle blast a muzzle blast suppressor is a small sound suppressor, it does not try to silence the gun, but does result in a significant noise and flash reduction, these are becoming popular with spec ops forces and have been used for years on some short rifles such as the CAR-15. This is not a "flash suppressor" flash suppressors are very misunderstood by most, the intent of flash suppressors is only to direct the flash and sound away from the shooter, it does nothing to hide the gun shot from others. The modifier for a muzzle blast suppressor could also be used for a well made home built suppressor. Sound suppressor and high volume sound suppressors are what many know as "silencers" these represent avaerage quality suppressors, less efficient suppressors are available at lower cost and better performing ones may be had at higher cost. A high volume is simply a suppressor with more volume than the minimum needed, these are nearly twice the diameter and weight but work better and last longer. Some weapons that normally fire supersonic ammunition can also be loaded with subsonic loads without reducing damage, in this case they are slightly queiter than their supersonic versions, this is ignored if a suppressor is used. Most cartridges have an effective barrel length, using the cartridge is a shorter barrel results in a large muzzle flash and more noise, a rifle cartridge in a very short carbine or a pistol are examples as would a .44 magnum fired from a short or snub barrel pistol. Black powder leaves a large smoke cloud when fired, marking where the shot came from, in extreme cases such as a gatling gun or several volleys of fire it might be appropriate to start adding levels of change enviornment infront of the firing position, gatling guns often had spotters to the side to adjust aim since the shooter at the gun could not see the target anymore. Well hope this is worthwhile to somebody, I'd be happy to get comments on any of this and remember this is just my thoughts, not trying to foist this on anybody who doesn't like it. The tables follow in the next post.

It might be seen as tooting their own horn, but a feature like Amazon has that lets people review books online would be nice (a little link off the product with a read what people say about it). That way if there is a product you want you could see what others thought, of course since we are so critical of Hero products, it might not be that useful, it also would likely stir up the we hate HERO because they are full of themselves people on another unnamed RPG site. As for my opinions if they offered such a link - 5th Ed - great, enough new material to make it worth getting even if you have 4th ed. Plus you can throw it in the dryer if the mood strikes you (but you might need a new dryer afterwards), try that with your copy of 4th ed. Ultimate Martial Artist - great, good variety of martial arts styles (who'd guess that), most could be reproduced using the 5th ed alone but why do all that work when it is already done for you. Beastiary - I'd say this is a necessity unless you are a member of PETA and don't think animals should be objectified as stats in a RPG. Covers tons of normal animals and quite a few fictional critters as well. Also gives rules for creating animals. Champions - Well done if you like that sort of thing. I'm not heavy into spandex but I've found the book to have enough ideas for non supers games to make it worth the money I spent. StarHERO - Awesome, extremely well done, I'd even recommend it to people who don't play HERO as a resource for Sci-fi games. The Ultimate Vehicle - Another very well done resource, I have many plans for this. It follows a simple what does the vehicle do, that looks about right format, rather than the complicated math frenzy of GURPS Vehicles. GURPS Vehicles or BTRC's Vehicle Design System would compliment it nicely however. Ninja HERO - Another well written book, I'm not a big fan of this genre either but reading through the book put me in the mood to try one.

I used to think the same thing but the past several years I've been reading lots of WW2 history with the idea of running a game and there is a lot of room for RP even as a grunt. Some ideas I've had, Airborne assault, the first hours or days often were chaotic and there were often individuals and groups operating alone for some time, Crete, D-day and Operation Market Garden are good possibilities. It would take some work but I thought using the June 5th drop could be fun, starting each player alone after landing and essentially running several seperate games that eventually merge into one as the individuals meet up and reform into a unit. Recon scouts, both those attached to larger units and spec ops like the Alamo Scouts would work well, but it might eventually get repetitive. Patrolling, typically groups of 3 to 20 would probe enemy defenses, locating strong points, determining enemy strength and capturing targets of opportunity. Long Range Desert Group, SAS and Afrika Corps also offers a differant setting from what most picture of WW2, it was not uncommon for small groups to participate in scouting, raiding, ambush and just general mayhem missions. The British even mounted a mission to capture or kill Rommel at one point, it failed because he wasn't home at the time. The pacific and CBI also had numerous instances of small groups operating semi independantly, both intentionally and also from the terrain. Resistance groups also would be quite playable but that is more along the lines of OSS / SOE which you mentioned.

Sorry I meant + or - 1/2 but I can see it also looks like -1 for 2. I figured 1/2 would add or subtract about 5 points per point of body gained or lost just like buying a 1 pip KA. Well the idea from the other discussion is that a tank gun that does 6d6 could do 6 to 36 points of damage, by using standard effect on part of the damage it would increase the minimum damage so that tank shells don't plink off body armor. It provides another way to have variation in weapon damage without pushing the overall damage higher (to avoid DC proliferation). I was thinking that allowing variations in se could also help reach that goal, by upping average damage without buying additional levels of KA. There is no reason the same could not be done by buying 2d6 of KA with SE as opposed to buying 1d6 KA with a +3 SE, both would do an average of 6 pts, but the second is slightly more expensive and is only DC3. I'm not concerned with economics of it since I'm looking at heroic games so point cost isn't an issue, its the overall effect I'm considering. It's possible that I'm only making it more difficult by including this as part of SE, would + / - pips of body on a KA make more sense (each pip per die is a 1/2 lim or adv but max damage cannot not exceed 6 per die).

Champsguy, I like you idea of using SE, I think it has some potential. If anyone is interested I've posted some thoughts on variations of standard effect on the hero discussion site, I'd be interested in any comments you might have. I think it could work nicely with Champsguys idea. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2656

Over in the Starhero section in the weapon damage thread Champsguy had an idea for using Standard Effect for the damage of really big weapons which I think has some potential and it gave me another idea based on Standard Effect. So I got to thinking, if the basic Standard Effect provides average damage and is a -/+0 lim/ adv, then it makes sense that you should be able to buy it higher or lower than average for an additional cost or savings. For example Standard effect -1 so every KA die would only do 2 points of body, or as an advantage Standard Effect +1, +2, +3 so each die would do 4,5 or 6 (max damage) instead of rolling. So how much do you think this should be worth, or should it even be allowed? I was thinking perhaps 1/2 per level up or down, this would make SE+3 (max damage) more than 2x the cost so at equal cost the regular KA would have more potential damage, to offset the value of alway getting max damage. Any thoughts on this?

Ok, came out kind of weird but it looks readable, I will post my more drastic revision when I finish converting it to html so the charts will come out.

HERO GUNS These tables may be used to convert weaponsinto the Hero system. While there are a few changes, by following these stepsyou will create a weapon very close to those in existing Hero systemproducts. Barrel (in / cm) OCV RMOD Str Min Mod Dex Mod Conceal Less than 2" Less than 5cm +0 -2 -2 -1 -6 2 to 3" 5 to 7.6cm +0 -1 -1 -1 -5 3 to 4.5" 7.6 to 11.4cm +0 +0 +0 -2 -4 4.5 to 6" 11.4 to 15.2cm +0 +1 +1 -2 -3 6 to 9" 15.2 to 23cm +1 +0 +2 -3 -2 9 to 12" 23 to 30.5cm +1 +1 +3 -3 -1 12 to 18" 30.5 to 45.7cm +1 +2 +4 -4 +0 18 to 24" 45.7 to 70cm +1 +3 +5 -5 +1 24 to 36" 70 to 91.4cm +1 +4 +6 -6 NC 36 to 48" 91.4 to 121.9cm +1 +5 +7 -7 (blk) NC 48 to 72" 121.9 to 182.9cm +1 +6 +8 -8 (blk) NC Damage To find HERO damage compare muzzle energy to the table below. Damage Class Damage (killing / normal) Energy (Ft/lbs / Joules) 1 1 1d6 less than 74 less than 100 2 1/2d6 2d6 74 to 110 100 to 150 2+ 1d6-1 3d6 110 to 147 150 to 200 3 1d6 3d6 147 to 294 200 to 400 4 1d6+1 4d6 294 to 588 400 to 800 5 1 1/2d6 5d6 588 to 882 800 to 1200 5+ 2d6-1 5d6 882 to 1176 1200 to 1600 6 2d6 6d6 1176 to 2352 1600 to 3200 7 2d6+1 7d6 2352 to 4704 3200 to 6400 8 2 1/2d6 8d6 4704 to 7056 6400 to 9600 8+ 3d6-1 8d6 7056 to 9408 9600 to 12,800 9 3d6 9d6 9408 to 18,375 12,800 to 25,000 10 3d6+1 10d6 18,375 to 36,750 25,000 to 50,000 11 3 1/2d6 10d6 36,750 to 73,500 50,000 to 100,000 Special feature Effect Improved accuracy, minor modifications +1 RMOD Improved accuracy, major modifications +2 RMOD Improved accuracy, designed for accuracy +3 RMOD Open bolt -1 RMOD Poor quality weapon -1 RMOD Shoulder stock -5 STRMIN Integral Suppressor -10% STRMIN Muzzle Brake -30% STRMIN Recoil reduction -10% STRMIN Bipod -10 STRMIN Autofire +5 STRMIN Bulky 1/2 DCV Arrangement Most be set up before use

I've been working on a 1944 France game to run at the Dundracon, couldn't get it organized in time but I'm working on it to hopefully run next year. I have been basing it around a recon platoon advancing through normandy heading to St. Lo days after landing at Omaha Beach. I have a large amount of material I converted to twilight 2000 and am slowly converting it to HERO. (If I ever would stop and focus on one thing I'm converting I might actually fininsh something). Anyway to answer your question yes, I'd like to see what you've got.

Based on current and previous hero stats, I found that if you assume a "standard" pistol (4" barrel) is +0 +0 and alternate adding rmod or OCV each time you increase by 1/2 you get a reasonable facsimile of the HERO guns. 2-3" +0 OCV -1 Rmod, 3-4" +0 +0, 4-6" +0 OCV +1 Rmod etc. I have made a chart that details this, I'll try to post it friday. I also have done alot for guns that breaks away from the current standards, one of my biggest changes is that it uses OCV for "quick point and shoot" weapons and Rmod for weapons accurate at range. In this pistols have a +1 or +0 OCV and little or no rmod, long guns may even have a negative OCV but plenty of rmod to cancel the penalty plus some to offset range penalties, I haven't play tested this yet but the idea is that within 8" rifles may actually be less accurate complared to pistols but once youi get out beyond this range they start to leave pistols in the dust, as the weapon gets larger this gets more pronounced, a tank gun came out to have a -6 OCV or so but has +14 rmod or so. I can post this friday as well if you like. I also have a table for dc based on muzzle energy, a formula for stunx based on a combination of bullet weight, velocity and caliber. I also include the idea of using some levels of piercing (a few points at most) so that rifles are more powerful than pistols even when they do the same damage (once you get to 2d6 there is not much differance between rounds with large variations in power). I can post all of this if there is interest.

It's been quite a while since I've played GURPS but I think point for point would be way to high HERO DEF is probably 1/2 GURPS DR since most GURPS Weapons do about twice the damage of similar HERO weapons.

Anyone have recommendations for fantasy games that would be good to pick ideas from. Along with recommendations why would be nice to know as well (what makes it a good referance) whether its the game world, the magic system or something else.

As far as real armor there was little to compare with modern body armor. Of course you have the basic military steel helmet, probably DEF 3 to 5, these basically stopped fragments, not much good against guns. These appeared around World War 1 and improved primarily in shape (started out as flat tin hats, later versions provided better coverage), kevlar was a big improvement but that didn't come until the late 1970's. By World war 1 most of the breast plates had gone out of use for all but ceremonial use, but a PC could probably get one through World War 2, again probably DEF 3 to 5. During World War 1 there was some use of armor for snipers, a big heavy vest with sown in metal plates, I haven't seen much on these but would guess DEF 4 to 6, again not really meant to stop bullets directly shot at them. It was also common for snipers to build armored parapets which they could set up and fire through a slit, these could stop bullets, so DEF probably 7 to 10, it became somewhat common for large caliber hunting rifles to be used to combat these plates, so I think they were probably effective against standard military rifles (2d6 or 2d6+1 generally), this isn't really body armor but I can see where a PC might like the idea. The Ghillie Suits (the camoflage sniper suits) also became common for military snipers during WW1. By World War 2 there was body armor for aircrews and naval gunners, these were heavy smocks from neck to knees with metal plates sown in to protect from fragments DEF probably 3 or 4. These were quite heavy and bulky (I'd guess at least 25kg) not sure about the naval versions but the air crew armor could be easily taken off, pull a few straps and it just kind of fell away allowing them to bail out of a plane, I would guess the navy ones did this as well, I'd hate to fall overboard with 50 pounds of steel on that I couldn't get off in a hurry. These were not made for moving around much. I've seen referance to lightweight concealable chain shirts being popular for protection against knives in the 1930's but I have no idea how wide that use would have been. Seems unlikely to me so perhaps a regional thing. Leather jackets and such would probably only be DEF 1. Improvised armor such as metal plates like Clint Eastwood used in fistful of dollars (or was it for a few dollars more) would be possible but I've never heard of it really being used except for stationary uses such as the snipers positions mentioned above. Someone could probably make "light" body armor from thin metal plate of around DEF 3 or maybe 4 that could be somewhat concealed in clothing like a trench coat or jacket, a heavier steel plate might get DEF 5 but its going to be hard to hide except by wearing a poncho over it and it would be heavy and uncomfortable (try hanging a cast iron skillet around your neck for a few hours). Medieval armor could be used, the really heavy plate mail would be of some use even against guns, some like to use AP against old armor but the stuff that gets DEF 7 or 8 was pretty thick steel so I don't know if it really needs to be cut down as drastically as AP, the first tanks only had 6mm or so of armor and I think some of the late platemail was that thick. GM call, besides how many PCs can run around in full plate without attracting unwanted attention. Of course being Pulp the wonders of science couid find a kevlar substitute earler, Ballistic nylon was available by the 1960's and would probably provide DEF 3 or 4 at much lighter weights, not that concealable (looks kind of like a life jacket) but body armor was being experimented with from the time the heavily armored knight went away, it was just lack of materials that held up practical armor.

Fallout borrowed heavily from GURPS, from what I understand it was originally going to use GURPS but there was some knid of disagreement between SJG and the Fallout people. Since GURPS and HERO are kind of related it makes since you see similarities between Fallout and HERO.

Not really, its anything larger than a 20mm cannon, by the time you reach a 75mm gun multiple megajoules of energy are only adding 1 point of damage. In real life a modern destroyer stands no chance against a Battleship but in HERO you would be looking at something like 8d6RKA (16" guns), 6d6RKA (5" guns) DEF 20, vs 6d6 (5" gun), 7d6RKA (missiles) DEF 15 so the DD can get lucky and take out the BB. Same goes for tanks a Sherman is something like 5d6 RKA (76mm gun) DEF 10 (2.5" armor) vs an Abrams 6d6RKA, DEF 20 (12" armor), in reality the Sherman couldn't hope for more than a blown track but in HERO terms they are fairly equally matched, and that is with equipment built in the same century.

I agree, but it is just one of those things I have come to accept with HERO, since most games involve the lower end of the damage scale it doesn't come up much. Even when it does it rarely involves multiple vehicles so again it doesn't stand out, a tank will clean heroic characters as it is and against supers tanks are not supposed to be that tough so it seems to work out. On those occasions I want to play something with tank vs tank or star ship vs star ship I typically use another game (blasphemy!!!!! ) I hesitate to suggest HERO can not do EVERYTHING but naval combat on the high seas between WW2 battleships is not one of HEROs strong points.

I just see it as an intrinsic value of the weapon, the bigger the bullet the more likely its going to knock you into next week. If you are building a weapon for efficiency it does not make sense, it does if you are trying to allow really big weapons to have an effect the narrow damage scale won't allow, stunX is a decent way to do that. An unconscious opponent is just as good as a dead one and it helps prevent silly things like 75 point heros taking a tank round in the chest and brushing it off, they are at least unconscious until the next millinium even on a bad roll. The stunX has no effect on a vehicle. Hope that answered your question.

Well if the product looked like the Battle tech products then I can see why I thought it was an RPG, FASA seemed to put more background into their "board" games than most. I have no idea what kind of materials will eventually come from this but I ran across this from whiz kids while looking for Crimson Skies stuff on the internet http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid=37438&frame=company even if there is little background it might be good for the mini's

Gary, I think we are of a like mind on damage, except that I finally accepted or had beat into me that in HERO the 2x energy = +1 DC is how it works. About 3 years ago on the old hero boards I had come up with a method of determining weapon damage that the square root of damage instead than the exponential method. It worked well keeping the damage at the low end around the same as current damage (.50 cal did 3d6+1 instead of 3d6) but as the energy increased so did the damage. The 120mm tank gun did 12d6 and a 16" gun did something like 100d6, judging from your response here I think you can imagine what the response I got was. I am still looking at ways of representing these large weapon attacks with other means than just more d6. It is surprising what a little work with the lims and advantages can do, for example you might rate an 17th century 12 pounder naval gun as 4d6 RKA, with a big stun X mod and a lim 1/2 damage against metal armor, while a modern 20mm cannon might also have a 4d6 RKA and the beam lim, so while both look similar a 12 pounder cannon ball will knock large holes in stone walls, wooden hulls etc, and the 20mm will penetrate armor better but only leave a small hole behind. I am assuming that you are like me and would like to see more variety in modern weapons instead of the small gun, medium gun, big guns HERO can sometimes feel like.

Wasn't there a Crimson Skies RPG from FASA? I bought the computer game awhile back and thought it would make a good setting (I love anything with zeppelins and art deco).

This does help control STR, I recall one character I ran with a 23 STR, it was not unusual in longer combats for me to have to take a round here and there to take an additional recovery so I could make it to the end of the battle.