Dust Raven

Re: Ogre NND Question I think the SFX may be debatable here. I've stated what I think it is, or at least my excuse for why it causes so much damage. Then again, I'm the only one on these boards who's said something matching the effect being simulated has happened to them. Granted, it wasn't by someone with the STR of Ogre, so I can imagine that someone with that could do it had have it hurt a LOT more. Maybe I'm unique in that. I dunno. As far as who can be affected and who can't, I'll have to look up each character and I don't have CKC with me at work. Maybe later today.

Re: Ogre NND Question Play something else then. The Hero System is not for you. Sorry, but that's just the way it is based on what you've just said. The Hero System is about choices. If you don't want to worry about such things, you don't worry. If you want to play an Iceman like character but not melt, you can do so. If you don't, you don't have to. You seem to want to force players to play a melting Iceman whether or not they want to. That's not the Hero System way. I think I know more about my priorities than you do. Also, I did not say the defense for the NND was wrong, I said it may have been poorly conceived or written, and it definitely not exclusive or exhaustive. At best what is listed is an example and nothing more. Well, no, I hold the same opinion, I'm just not as anal-retentive about it as you are, or I'm otherwise more flexible. I realize there is more than one genre, and more than one setting in each genre. I also realize that different players have different tastes and some are willing to put more work into arbitrating the rules of their games, while others are not. So play your way. Your way may not allow for something like the Bearhug maneuver as presented in the Ultimate Brick, but that doesn't mean your way is the only way.

Re: That's Easy?? Show me how _you_ did it. Ah, true. So ultimately he'd have the EB, RKA and Missile Deflection.

Re: That's Easy?? Show me how _you_ did it. I've always done Cyclops eye-beams as an EB 16d6 and that's it. Occasionally I'll MP it with an RKA 5d6+1, but for the most part I've never seen Scott do anything that a plain old 16d6 Energy Blast couldn't do. So a write-up would be something like Eye Beams: EB 16d6 Variable Limitations (Always On & NNC, OAF or Blind; -1/2)

Re: Ogre NND Question I think he does have enough force. He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force. I disagree. What you are basically saying is that you think NND shouldn't be on there. Then again, maybe you just think what Ogre is doing is impossible. So what? His level of physical strength is impossible. Why stop there? He's in a world where people have impossible powers. But that's just with your own assumption what he's doing is impossible (hurting someone without causing lasting damage by forcing air out their lungs). I think it is possible... it's happened to me. Maybe we just have different life experiences. As far as the SCUBA diver, no he should not be crushed, but he should take damage. He did buy his LS with a Limitation after all. This would qualify as circumstance where his LS doesn't work/doesn't protect him. Well, you are free to make those rulings on a case by case basis when you're the GM. That doesn't make the write-up invalid. All it does is make it something that you personally don't like and wouldn't allow in your game. Actually, while there are a few problems with the Hero System, this isn't one of them. This is Hero System's greatest asset. You can have good ideas and bad ideas when playing any game, but it's not the rules that decide which ideas get used, it's the players. What makes this an asset in the Hero System is that the players have the choice to allow new ideas into the game, be they good or bad, because the rules won't tell you which is which (because what is good for you may be bad for me, and vice versa). Exactly. In your opinion. My opinion differs. I think it matches the SFX exactly and even think you could remove a number of Limitations from it and it'll work even better, matching the SFX even closer.

Re: What is STUN?

Re: What is STUN?

Re: What is STUN?

Re: What is STUN? Um... no it isn't. Do you start to stagger when you have 0 END? Do you take any penalties when at 0 END? Are you hampered in any way when you are at 0 END? No. All it does is cause you to fall faster. You still shut off like a light switch when you go. Nothing gradual at all. One Phase you're up and going full strength, full CV and full power... the next you're face down in the asphalt.

Re: What is STUN? You did not see it because there is no such thing as "CON Stunning". Go ahead and search the rulebook for it. It's not there. There is something called Stunned though. And it has it's own name (Stunned). Sorry, just a pet peeve. I see archermoo has already sniped at you for this. thank you archermoo. And repped.

Re: Ogre NND Question Tensing=Block Maneuver. Done. Larger Than You Target=Since when does size matter in Hero? (this is a different flaw in the rules and actually has nothing to do with Ogre, size really doesn't matter in Hero unless the GM invents campaign specific rules for it). Sufficent DEF and/or STR can have lots of SFX. Lets say you defined this Bear Hug maneuver defense being PD of X. Okay, so I have a character with a PD of 2X, but the SFX of his PD is "tough, flexible skin" rather than hard armor or an inflexible skeletal structure. By all rights, he should be affected by the bear hug but isn't because he has enough PD. That doesn't fix it. Same thing with STR values. It just doesn't work. The only people who won't be affected are people who can't have air forced from their lungs, or otherwise wouldn't be hurt by it if it happened. And there's your defense, it's just phrased poorly (or incompletely) on Ogre's character sheet. Has to what? Has to squeeze and let go, or has to grab and hold his target in order to squeeze at all? In either case, no, Ogre has a choice. He can do either (unless the GM has for some reason banned MPAs, then it's the GMs fault the Power doesn't work as designed, not whoever wrote up Ogre). Note: After looking up the actual character sheet and rereading it, it does say Must Follow Grab, so he does have to grab and hold. Why was someone saying this didn't make sense then? There's also a specific limitation that if he fails his Skill Roll the target takes full damage... he can accidentally crush the kitten. What the hell is everyone arguing over the build vs SFX on this one for? It's all right there!!! The rule works the same in all circumstances. If the target has the defense, he takes no damage. If the target lacks the defense, he takes damage. The only problem here is a disagreement on what the defense is, or isn't. Just remember Ogre is a published character, and there is limited space available for printing. Of course, I'll admit the possibility the writer didn't think things through or just jumped to an incomplete conclusion... but keep in mind throughout all of this we are really arguing over the validity of single phrase on a character sheet.

Re: Ogre NND Question I disagree completely. The only thing that's "wrong" about the mechanic of this build is what's listed as the defense of the NND. As I've said before, I never under any circumstances assume what's listed there is an absolute, exhaustive, complete, exclusive list of keeps someone from taking damage. It's an example, based upon SFX, and nothing more. This goes double, if not triple, for published characters. Due to space limitations on a character sheet (especially a published one), I assume a complete list of what may protect someone isn't something you'd have room to list. It's recently come to my attention, or at least my sudden realization, other people don't play this way. To specifically respond to your note about it affecting Joe Martial Artist but not Joe Brick... why? I don't get why they should be treated differently. Unless noted otherwise, they both have lungs and need to breathe air, and that air can be forcefully shoved out with enough force. Ogre has a Power stating he has that level of force. You might be thinking that a really strong character will have the physical strength to keep his lungs full of air, but keep in mind that Ogre is also a "really strong" character. Also, as you yourself noted, it doesn't take a lot of strength to knock the wind from someone in a painful way (4 year old daughter vs adult).

Re: What is STUN? Perhaps you've noticed my mood... /wants a "barely conscious" mood available.

Re: What is STUN? One thing I've noticed mentioned by others here, but I must disagree with, is the notion STUN is a measure of how close someone is to unconsciousness, or how conscious someone is. Not so. It doesn't matter if you have a current STUN value of 1 or 100, you are just as conscious either way. It only matters if you are at negative STUN, or you are in that transitory state of being Stunned (which can happen at any value, negative infinity to infinity). This is one thing that has always bugged me a little bit about Hero, but not enough to really do anything about. There simply is no mechanic for "barely conscious" or anything less than fully conscious but more than mostly unconscious.

Re: Ogre NND Question I said agree to disagree, not agree to not argue about it. You have obviously never had "the fat guy" sit on you during recess. Exhaling doesn't hurt, even holding your breath doesn't hurt. But having all that air shoved out all at once hurts. A lot. Trust me. The fat guy sat on me. And I didn't take any physical damage. Maybe I have a really high PD, but I doubt it. Granted, I wasn't anywhere near knocked out, but I was at least Stunned, and the fat guy didn't even sit on my long, maybe what I'd call a single Phase, maybe less. I'd say maybe the fat guy had bought Sit on People: EB 3d6 NND (LS: SCB), No Range. Well, it's not my fault is the defense of the NND is poorly decided. It should read "no need to breathe or crush-proof lungs" or something like that. Though it should have the exact same effect on Grond as it would have on a normal. The difference is that the normal will be knocked out and Grond won't even be Stunned. I'm sure you'd think at least that makes sense. I fail to see the problem. Why can't Ogre just squeeze real quick and let go? Or why should Ogre be force to grab and maintain a hold on his target? What's unrealistic about the way it's built? I find nothing wrong it it (well, duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you). The only thing that has changed is how the GM has ruled the Power works. Personally, I've always treated the defense for NNDs very loosely and rarely literly. In official write-ups, I've taken what's listed as an example of a likely defense, but not an absolute and exclusive list. Maybe that's just me, but I've yet to hear a complaint from one of my players (though a few have raised an eyebrow at me).

Re: Ogre NND Question Designer of Power's actual answer (or well, what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' hurts."

Re: Ogre NND Question Yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I think it represents a potential aspect of reality, though perhaps a cinematic reality, and it definitely represents a superheroic reality. Used all by itself, it represents a quick squeeze and let go. It does and represents exactly what it's mechanics says it does, and there it nothing really unrealistic about it unless someone is making unreasonable assumptions about what else it should do. And even then, if you want to use it with those elses (actually grabs and perhaps maintains a grab on the target, also crushes the target for additional physical damage, etc), just MPA with the Grab maneuver.

Re: What is STUN? You've never been knocked out?

Re: What is STUN? STUN is nothing more than a measure of how long, or how much effort it takes, to knock a character unconscious. That's it. It has nothing to do with damage or pain, other than these things could cause a character to become closer to unconscious, and thus reduce a character's STUN. Lots of things can knock a character unconscious, and many of them don't involve pain or damage. STUN has to be more generic.

Re: Ogre NND Question Yes, you're being overly critical. It's not that the Power can be made to work or changed to work. It works. It can be made, or used in a way, in which it doesn't work, or doesn't make sense. Not really an issue for me. It's also on a Champions character, a genre most known for its physics and reason defying abilities. I certainly wouldn't allow a Dark Champions character to have this, nor a Fantasy Hero or Star Hero character. Maybe a wild martial arts Ninja Hero character, but on a Champions character I can't really question it.

Re: And this is my special eff... er, I mean, my Sidekick.

Re: And this is my special eff... er, I mean, my Sidekick. I love the idea! I've actually used a variation of it for a few characters. One had purchased Enhanced PER rolls with OAF, defined as a glowing orb that floated near his shoulder. Another bought a number of KS and Skill Levels defined as having a guiding totem spirit that talked to him (no Focus though). I don't see any problem with making such a thing a person. I would definitely make it OAF rather than OIF, since the little guy can be grabbed. There should definitely be some additional Lim representing the sidekick may be away and not helping the character... I'm thinking OIHID, which usually shouldn't be placed on Powers with Focus, but for this I'd be willing to make an exception.

Re: Power Request: Bouncing That's his battle cry.

Re: Power Request: Bouncing ROTFLOL!!! Okay, I should explain my laughter. I have a character named Zectron, who is basically a golden age superhero in a bronze age superhero world. He's a hero because he has superpowers, that's is primary motivation. He just thinks little boys who develop superpowers in puberty should be heroes. Why is this so funny? Check out what zectron actually is: http://www.noframes.com/%60superballs/wham-o_super_ball_fact_sheet.htm

Re: Haymaker out of combat No, it means this level of concentration is impossible if the target keeps moving, and you've just wasted your time trying. Edit: More precisely, the level/type of concentration required to hit the target "extra hard" requires the target not be dancing around the battlefield. Alternately, you can forgo all that concentration and just exert yourself more (Push).