Opal

I suppose you could offer them increasingly questionable, unethical, and finally illegal, ways to spy on their rivals, until they finally uncover that their rivals have done something unethical or illegal: spying on them in the same way... Also, at some point, you have to put them in some situation where they have to work together or fail. Some mega-villain or evil organization or something taking advantage of the division between them.

D&D Stone and Iron golems were prettymuch that, magical robots. Flesh Golems had some sort of vestige of consciousness, and clay golems maybe an animating spirt or something? - they could go berserk, anyway. The original golem of legend was more of a knock-off human, made of clay, like Adam was, and animated by a magic word (either inscribed on it, or written on paper placed in its mouth), it started out obedient but became rebellious and murderous.

It's actually been done in comics more than a few times, hasn't it? The villain fake-reforming and doing good for a while just to set up his next scheme?

If they both want to continue claiming to be heroes, Rivals, surely. If one can get the other labeled villains, upgrade to Hunteds. (BTW, I can't help but picture the Justice Warriors as a majority-female(-bodied) band of very young, idealistic, rainbow-and-unicorn utopian environmentalist democratic-socialist queer millennial snowflake types, and the Power Brotherhood as a collection of less young, hyper-masculine (but maybe a couple on the DL) Luke Cage clones engaging in more pragmatic Black Panthers style direct action. I'm sure that's not what you had in mind, I just saw 'Power Brotherhood' and went straight to Power Man, since I actually read Power Man & Iron Fist titles when I was 11 - I think that was before the Hero for Hire thing, so "Power Man" actually stuck with me.)

Sorry to run it out, but it seemed like it had been a while... and this came up in another thread... The Rainbow Warriors A local street-level supers team in San Francisco reporting directly to the Mayor & City Council as part of a policing alternative pilot program. 6 members, exhaustively vetted to assure acceptability and representation of the City's diversity, each alluding to a color of the basic rainbow pride flag: Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Violet (Unless someone really wants to be the Indigo Somethingorother, or tackle the 5 additional colors of the Progress flag)

Kinetic Dad Using a black & neon-green battlesuit covered in reconfigurable advanced carbon composite leaf springs, Kinetic Dad is able to move, impact, and recoil as a near-perfectly-elastic object. As such he is virtually immune to normal physical damage. Though he gets knocked around like a pinball in the process, he can often control his careening enough to redirect the kinetic energy of attacks into his foes. But Kinetic Dad is less in The Legion of Progress for advanced carbon composite leaf springs, and more to promote social change, specifically the acceptance of single parents and the importance of fatherhood (earning him some unwelcome MRA fans). His superhero banter tends to extra-lame "Dad jokes," and fatherly advice.

I suppose he could take the place of Freddy Fosgood as that universe's Foxbat. ...or...

C2-Shining-C A gold-tone art deco robotoid reminiscent of Metropolis (and thus C3PO, who was notoriously inspired by the robot therefrom), who speaks with a rich, cultured, but metallic voice, like Sidney Poitier reciting Shakespeare with a bucket on his head, C2-Shining-C was created by a very elderly 'mad' ("but I have tenure!") scientist, with programming to match his retro-aesthetic, as a legacy that would carry on the highest ideals of Manifest Destiny, Patriotism and Progress, and donated by said scientist to the Legion of Progress. C2SC is literally colorblind - his photoreceptors register only the presence or absence of light in the visible spectrum, he uses radar for targeting and hearing (voice recognition) & touch (fingerprints) to identify individuals - and is programmed to acknowledge only current citizenship as a valid way to classify different groups of human beings. Similarly, his moral and ethical programming is strictly black & white, persons are either law-breaking or law-abiding, either moral or immoral, patriotic or un-American. Or, at least, the way he expresses it is. When confusing shades of grey come up, he seems to ignore them, yet still make a fair judgement, sometimes just by choosing the order in which he processes the pros and cons of their behavior, similarly, when Patriotism comes up, he falls back on his own version of the "No True American" fallacy, thus he has judged noble-intentioned refugees 'True Americans' and vindictive flag-suited hyper-nationalists 'un-American.' Likewise, his idea of "Progress" seems very old-fashioned - industrialization and growth is progress - yet he always seems to rationalize, with a little old-fashioned conservationist rhetoric, respect for the environment. Whether he's overcome his programming, or it was always that nuanced is an open question. C2SCs powers include robotic super-strength, self-repair regeneration (from the tiniest scrap, apparently), rocket-assisted flight, and EM energy projection, including both blasts and force-fields, as well as electromagnetic TK. His systems are entirely analog, rendering him unable to interface with modern computers & technology - and quite immune to hacking attempts - but giving him a mind so human-like it can be contacted telepathically - in fact, some who have done so are convinced he is a cyborg, a human brain in a robot body, and his old-timey-robot manner is either an act or a matter of how his sub-systems were designed.

Yes, absolutely, so long as they were down with said authorities' partisan lines, and their public actions and personae fit the acceptable narratives. No white Nationalist paramilitary captains or Aryan ubermenchen, for instance. Heck, SF could have a sponsored hero team, like the Rainbow Warriors or something.... hmmm... the Create a Hero Theme Team thread has been quiet lately.... I think I heard something about police &c moving to new digital systems that can't just be picked up that way.

"Mom made this cape" has no idea how to conduct an interview.

Certainly. The practice was endemic to every historical civilization, so virtually every source of inspiration for pre-modern fantasy cultures. Besides, slavers make great villains - they're like fantasy Nazis, that way. And, it gives the stereotypical barbarian hero - who is uncivilized, so maybe comes from a culture with no such institutions - a little moral high ground, from which, with some irony, to project our post-modern de rigueur abhorrence.

I suppose another strike against it is age. 60 years ago, speaking out against segregation, even metaphorically, was fraught - you might not have been blacklisted for it like a commie in the prior decade, but it would have been reasonable to fear loss of readership, for instance. Today, even the most cynical, soulless corporations fervently declare their commitment to inclusion. Like how Star Trek, in the 60s, was groundbreaking and courageous, but by the 80s was feeling trite and preachy, and it might not be long before reruns of TOS gets a Gone-With-the-Wind style forward alerting the viewer to all the rampant Patriarchy they're about to witness.

Thank you. I found it a disturbing insight, tho....

I don't think that makes a difference, really. Every sort of super-origin has produced both heroes and villains, is obviously cause for concern, but the mutant origin is singled out for bigotry. Still sounds plenty irrational. It does not have to be that extreme, no. It's easy and facile to create a narrative of RL bigotry that paints the bigot as utterly malicious or utterly stupid or both. It's comforting because it absolves anyone with an milligram of self respect from thinking they might engage in bigotry, themselves. It's dangerous for the same reason. You don't have to just lie, you can always use the lie's kissing cousin, the statistic. The Nazi doesn't just go "check out the Protocols of the Elders of Zion," he points out, did you know, here in Weimar Germany, that Jews are diproportionately represented among Bankers? Then he hands you the Protocols. RL bigots have pointed to violent crime, high birth rates, - even positive like education and professional success - to lay the foundations for fear, jealousy, and/or scapegoating. Mutant powers are like violent crime statistics, turned up to 11, as an (in-fictional-world)-factual basis for irrational fears. So, yeah, I do see the problem with that, the threat is too easy to see, that way. And, I guess., again, where do you draw the suspension- of disbelief line is an issue, too.

That bit says it all, really. Not objective, but debateable.

So I did some quickie research, since I'd been away from Marvel for many years, and, well, another thing pops up, for me. While mutants are subjected to discrimination in the Marvel universe, turning out to be a mutant, in addition to possible cool (or icky, or overwhelming) powers, is also an instant membership in an exclusive club. Defining an out-group creates another in-group of it's own, and it's part of the Mutant X-whatever franchise's appeal, identifying with your heroes in that group. But, it's also problematic, because it gives the victims and the oppressors *both* an incentive to keep the artificial divide going - and it makes being an 'ally' problematic, too - normal humans don't go joining the X-Men just to show solidarity and help out, presumably, not because there aren't a few humans out there who'd be more than willing to, but because Xavier &c don't ever even think of recruiting them, because they're not mutants. It's equally problematic IRL, so the analogy continues....

It wouldn't be a very good metaphor if it did, because racism doesn't make sense on its own terms. And, if I'm following you, that's your point: that Marvel Mutant Hysteria makes too much sense, and is too reasonable? Even though, for instance, the rationalization that they're a threat breaks down since - as was one of the first things pointed out in this thread - mutates, aliens, sorcerers, and super-tech geniuses are every bit as dangerous, but can somehow be trusted with their earth-shattering powers (or, at least, judged for how they use them) because they're not mutants?

I haven't been reading Marvel comics for some decades, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Marvel Mutants can be born to typical human couples, and "humans" and "mutants" can mate and produce fertile offspring (scientific definition of the same species)? Bigots /can/ & do point to contemporary genetic testing for relative occurrence of various markers to show genetic differences, and they can point to all sorts of statistics that 'prove' meaningful differences between themselves and the objects of their ire (who, in turn, can point to the same statistics as proof of oppression). Ultimately, it comes down to what you choose to believe. If you want to arbitrarily define a group as Other and persecute them, you can, and you can come up with 'real' reasons to rationalize what you're doing, people who want to join you will find those reasons real (regardless) and compelling (though it's the group cohesion gained from Othering the out-group that's compelling), and those who want to oppose you can poke holes in them and hopefully persuade most more rational people not to join you. Maybe the willing suspension of disbelief traditional in the genre is problematic for that metaphor, since it's easy for the reader to accept "mutants are different because some of them have powers and some look different and all ping a 'mutant detector,'" as part of the willing suspension of disbelief that allows for superpowers &c in the first place. Or, maybe it's just that much more powerful, because it lets you - hopefully very uncomfortably - into the mind of the bigot who /really believes/ in the differences among the arbitrary races (or whatever) he choses to believe in, all evidence to the contrary subject to rationalization and confirmation bias. OTOH, I couldn't quickly find any confirmation that Marvel canon says Mutants aren't human and are destined to supplant humanity - seems some mutants on Magneto's side of the fence believe that, and some humans fear it, is all. OTOOH, I could find virtually nothing about non-powered mutants, which makes me wonder what the X-gene is supposed to be or how it's supposed to work in the Medelian sense, at all....?

There's a story like that about RL racism, too: Tom Driscoll in Mark Twain's Puddn’head Wilson. Like Marvel's mutant-hating metaphor, racism doesn't actually make sense or hold together logically, because the arbitrary definitions of race can oblige the committed racist to flip-flop from embracing an individual as a brother to hating him (or vice versa) with proof of pedigree - like the a wave of the metaphorical mutant-detector. (ps: I hope I'm not appearing too strident on this topic.)

Supers are just people with extraordinary gifts. We see how post-modern western society treats the extraordinarily gifted. They are built up as celebrities - as N.carpenter pointed out, monetized - then eventually they say or do the wrong thing and are excoriated, torn down, and forgotten - or even 'canceled,' criminalized, or found dead from apparent suicide or OD. Heroes are just people who in extraordinary circumstances who get through those circumstances in a way that their culture approves of. That used to be things like courageously killing a lot of the enemy in wartime or inventing the lightbulb or curing polio or winning the world series. Now it's things like blowing the whistle on a vile corporation or being the victim of a high-profile murder. If they appeared here, our world would make a place for superheroes - the elements are already there.

RSR works to concept, especially for over the top skillful gadgeteers and mages in the comics. Tony Stark or Doctor Strange should have incredibly high skills, and RSR lets those skills do something - or to put it another way, pays for them. Sure, you could just take 15- activation or something and say the special effect is you're incredibly skilled at some skill that has no application outside of making that power work practically all the time. But, then, y'know, what about backing off on a power to make sure it works or it being harder to control if you take it to the limit? That seems like a dynamic worth modeling. RSR is the same point savings as 14- (excuse my versionitis if that's changed since whatever edition I'm remembering), but costs you points to buy up a skill that otherwise may do little or nothing, so it seems like it being able to tune it to working even on a 17- isnt entirely unreasonable. My eponymous character had a variable-fx VPP that used different pool-change or RSR skills, and a GM once pointed out to me that I was saving maybe 3 points overall, and still looking at checks as low as 13- in some cases. Yeah, but Opal started out as an alien so unfamiliar with earth that she couldn't /tell/ technology from magic, and she slowly mastered both over years of play, so there was a lot of fun getting to that inefficient point.

Maybe a philosphical question, but is Dispel an offensive power or a defensive one? That's still doctrine in Hero, right, that defenses cost less? In the opening example, it's being used defensively, sorta like block or missile deflection, I guess, but it could be used other ways. Maybe the point /is/ to dispell weaker powers, making it a show-off offensive power? The FH Lich or whole-team-fighting ubervillain waves it's hand and just *poof* a power you were counting on is gone. Admittedly very different from Dispel Magic in D&D, where magic is wildly overpowered and Dispel is a rare check on that power, but in Hero, magic is just another F/X, and Dispel negates powers you paid for fair & square.

So, yes, OT1H, all the reasoning around mutant hysteria does fall down upon examination, but then as a metaphor for racism, that works, because the rationalizations an constructs of racism, and race itself, also don't hold up to dispassionate scrutiny. OTOH, the consistent presentation of a group as dangerous is just part of prejudice against that group. Maybe Marvel should have introduced a lot more non-/trivially- powered but obvious mutants as 'extras' in background scenes and as victims of mutant hysteria, to make that point more clearly? Personally, that still feels on-point for me as a metaphor of the crazy ways race can work. In past times and places, there were racists who were absolutely certain they could tell a Jew or an Irishman or whatever at a glance, while today, we don't see it, like, at all. Certainly, tho, a story or two of a mutant spreading around a mutate or mystic origin story as a way of "Passing" might've been a nice idea. OK, well, I can agree to disagree on that point. I quite like allegory as a literary technique. It allows the reader to look at the logical structure and moral/ethical implications of a real-world phenomenon without all the unexamined emotional attachment they may have to it. Sure, some of us can be super-dispassionate without any such crutch, but even if all of us could, it can still be an aesthetically pleasing literary device.

Its not irrational to fear gangbangers or rapists, either. It is irrational to fear all black men because there are black gangs, or all men because virtually all rapists are men. Bigots always point to a reason to fear the object of their bigotry - it's not always a made up reason, it's the generalization that's, if not entirely irrational, simply wrong. Yeah, Magneto is a living engine of mass destruction, but other mutants just look different.

Each generation supplants the ones that were living when they were born. Nothing sinister about it, though it's not been easy for any elder generation to take, like, ever. So, supplant, if more and more mutants keep being born to human parents, inevitably. But destroy would be a choice.