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Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse I've always hated this particular gimmick, because it implies that superpowers are somehow different from the "powers" we've all developed through evolution, like eyesight, hearing, or prehensile grip. To a jellyfish or a trilobite, these are superpowers. There's no "power nullifier" that going to be able to distinguish between natural abilities and superpowers, because the only differences are relative. Guh. I hate that moment. "I've lost my powers!" And yet, miraculously, these people who've lost their powers are still able to run, scream, spit, scratch, and identify friends and foes at range by nothing but light.

Re: The Namesake Thread Mine is the name of a race I played in an old e-mail war game called Stars! My race was of a type called War Monger, so I wanted an innocuous name. They retired undefeated after wreaking great slaughter on numerous galaxies.

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

Re: Surprisingly Effective Builds? For one thing, I don't see how these are 120-point attacks. An 8d6 NND is an 80-point attack, and then you're getting it at -1/2 no range. 8d6 double knockback is just 70 points. Am I being stupid again? But something seems way wonky, since you're still getting those bonus mods on the STR for free. Why not buy just 1d6 HA and put the rest into STR? E.G., 50 STR with +1d6 HA +1 Var. advantage. wouldn't this give you an 11d6 autofire, double knockback, whatever? Or am I missing some rule that says STR is limited in how much it can help HA in the same way it is for HKA -- in other words, with +1d6 HA the most STR you could use would be 5 points? This rule seems the opposite of how running and swimming are treated, in that you have to pay the points to apply the mods to your base running and swimming, too, but with HA you don't have to pay the points to apply the mod to your base STR? Why not?

Re: Golden Girl I've seen a more common and perhaps more justifiable limitation on powers, -1/4 +3 PER rolls to notice. Any power that costs END is visible, and that includes flight. +3 to notice might be worth a -1/4, though I distinctly recall that in earlier versions of Champions this was listed as a -0. Sure, it makes bad guys easier to find you, but it also makes it easier for your friends. Still, it's a thought.

Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I really enjoyed this guy's opinions because they were so strong. He had some good points, particularly about hunteds and DNPCs: they often make up stories that should occur during the game, not before it. they often have ridiculous frequencies. I thought his criticism of vulnerabilities and susceptibilities was strange. Suddenly he's entirely away from critiquing them as they apply to character creation and game-playing, and he's treating them like we're playing a war game, where the weaknesses simply aren't worth the points. (Though I do agree GMs tend to overplay vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, and unluck. My poor 15 points of unluck will get played once or twice every adventure, while some other guy has 50 points in psychological disads that won't even come up every 4 or 5 sessions.) I loved his critiques of sample characters on the right side. He finds some he likes: Green Dragon, Tachyon, Icicle, and Invictus he thinks are particularly well built. But pretty much everybody else he trashes, and his reasons were convincing and funny (I thought). It's true the disads are the heart and soul of a character, and far the hardest part of the character to create. If you've got a good character conception, they flow like water, and if you don't, it's like pulling teeth to get your 150 points. That's because you're trying to define a character. Any novelist will tell you how hard that is to do. By contrast, you can whip up a new set of powers in a few minutes on a matchbook cover. He's right that Hero should have put a bit more creativity and thought into their sample characters. More people know about the Champions than any other NPCs, but their disads do read like an afterthought.

Re: How much should strength cost?

Re: Force Field Is No Good?

Re: Bolt, the super dog Agree on the no EC thing. Some disads: Money: Destitute. That's worth 10 points, I think. Physical Limitation: Can't speak any human language. What's that -- 15 points? Hunted!!! The whole point of the TV show he's in is that he & his girl are on the run. Distinctive features: black lightning bolt down the side. Always noticed, easily concealed. 5 points, I think? I don't have my book with me.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Well said. Thank you. Given the frequency with which you see force fields in the genre, I think it's odd that force fields in Champions are mostly a pretty bad deal. The advantages armor has -- persistence and 0 END -- are pretty good ones, particularly for a defense.

Re: How much should strength cost? The rules specifically state that 5-point levels with INT apply to all int-based skills and rolls, including PER rolls, so your calculations are somewhat off. Int has a one-to-one ratio with what you get versus buying it as a skill. It still has some advantages, e.g., you're better against INT drains, but those are small. I disagree with your premise -- INT and CON are two examples of characteristics that seemed priced just about right. STR, DEX, and SPD seem like the ones that are really under priced, and I was just starting with STR.

Re: How much should strength cost? Saving 60 points, but also making yourself 6 times more vulnerable to stuns, drains, transfers, etc. Besides, what's to stop a tank from taking an EC? What's to stop an EB from taking a 60 STR? Flying energy-blasting bricks are a staple of the genre. Your method of "balancing" requires making very strict character classes.

Re: How much should strength cost? Very cool link. Thanks. I took a break in playing from about '87 to '07, and was surprised how much work had gone into refining the game system, and how little into balancing it. I know it's a role-playing game, not a war game, but still you'd think some progress would have been made toward obvious imbalances. Instead there was all this talk about caps for certain campaigns or certain kinds of characters, which mystified me at first. If 80 STR 33 DEX bricks are overpowered, then the obvious answer seemed to be to make STR and DEX cost more, not to say "60 point cap on STR for this campaign," or "Bricks wouldn't have a 33 Dex. Buy it down." Ah, well. There's always another edition on the horizon.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? It looks like a good time to summarize. 1) Force fields should almost never be a primary defense. 2) Their lower active point cost makes them useful in some MPs. 3) They fit more comfortably into an EC. 4) They're more efficient than armor when you buy lots of disadvantages for them. 5) As a special case, they work great with "continuing charges," since that obviates their non-persistence. 6) In just about every other case, you're better off with armor. In other words, force fields have their niche. It's just a small one. The first point seems like the most important lesson. From reading sample characters, you'd think force fields were a viable alternative for your primary defense, but their non-persistence makes those characters fall like dominoes.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Is that right? Aren't you taking the "continuing" out of "continuing charge?" This seems more like a "discontinuous charge," which you should probably buy through and END battery or something.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Yes, ECs can be really cheap. Everyone seems to forget their Achilles Heel, though, which is their susceptibility to drains & transfers & etc. That first EC you've got listed is 6 times more susceptible to drains. A 4d6 ranged EB drain, for instance, will drain on average 28 points from your EB, 28 from your flight, and 28 from your force field. From one hit! This is one reason I hate ECs. If you aren't being hit by drains, transfers, suppresses, etc., then you're simply way more powerful than your point total, and if you are, then you're way weaker than what your points say you are. It's like the gripe against characters who buy all their powers through an OIF -- when they have their power suit, they're 50% stronger than everyone else, and when you take it away from them -- which you should do every once in a while, or it's not a focus -- when you take it away from them, they're useless. But, yes, ECs are one place force fields fit better than armor. Technically you can buy your armor so that it costs END and still put it in the EC, but if force field is going to have any place, it seems like ECs would be it.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Oops...off by a factor of 2.

Those of us who have been playing this game since the 80's have always known that strength was overpowered for its point cost. Not only is it one of the most versatile attack powers, it also comes with a butt load of figured characteristics. So how much should it cost? Right now, for 10 points of Strength, you get this: 6: +2d6 Hand-to-hand Attack 2: +2 PD 4: +2 REC 5: +5 STUN Thus, for every 10 points you're getting 17 points of effect, and that's before you count in the lifting and the throwing and the grabbing and the pushing that so often come in handy. By contrast, all you get with 10 points of EB is 2d6 attack at range, which seems like it should cost about...10 points. For 10 points of CON you get this: 1: +1 ED 2: +1 REC 2.5: +2.5 STUN 5: +10 END For 10 points you're getting about 10.5 points of effect, plus resistance to stunning and improved CON rolls and etc. Of course, resistance to stunning has a natural cap because it becomes irrelevant once you get enough CON that you're no longer worried about being stunned. This happens at different times in different campaigns, but it always happens by the time your CON is greater than your STUN. There's also a natural cap on the amount of END that's useful, and this counts for almost half figured characteristic benefit from CON. None of the STR benefits have this natural cap...the more the merrier! In other words, CON seems priced about right, while STR still seems out of whack. What about telekinesis? To compare telekinesis to STR we need to find a convenient breakpoint. Let's try 15 points. 15 points of STR gives: 9: +3d6 HA 3: +3 PD 6: +3 REC 7.5: +7.5 STUN 15 points of telekinesis gives: +2d6 ranged attack, with +3/4 indirect If you were going to buy an EB with these advantages, it would cost 17 points. Of course the telekinesis also acts like STR, so you can grab people and lift things and etc., so it's more versatile than the EB for fewer points. Telekinesis is looking maybe a little bit overpowered, but nothing crazy. Afterall, who buys +3/4 indirect for their EB? On the other hand, with 15 STR you're getting 25.5 points of goodies, and still plus all those nice lifts and grabs. Doesn't that seem wildly overpowered? Even compared to telekinesis, you're still 8.5 points to the good (since you're getting 17 points of benefit from 15 points of telekinesis, plus lifts and grabs.) Given this, would a 50% increase in the cost of STR be reasonable? If STR cost 1.5 points per, then buying 10 points of STR would cost 15 points, and you'd get those nice bonuses at the top of the page: +HA, +PD, +REC, +STUN giving 17 points of effect. That's a lot more in line! You're still getting a small bonus, but you could think of that as a "package bonus." Let's compare a simple Brick to a simple Energy Blaster if STR costs 1.5 per. Suppose both characters want 12d6 attacks. The Brick will buy 50 STR and get: +10d6 HA (for 12 total) +10 PD +10 REC +25 STUN ...and this will cost 75 points, giving 85 points of benefit. Still a nice bonus. The Energy blaster will spend 60 points to get his 12d6 EB, and have 15 points left over to beef up his stats. Sure, his attack is ranged, but the brick has 55 points of extra figured characteristics with those dollops of PD, REC, and STUN. Come to think of it, making STR cost 1.5 may not be enough....

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Well, you wouldn't ever buy your armor that way...why would you? I was just doing it to show that claims that FF is easier to buy hardened with are false.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Great idea! Does having 1 Continuing Charge also obviate the non-persistence of the force field? In other words, if you activate your 1 Continuing Charge, will the force field drop if you're stunned? I'd have to think it would stay up, which would go a long way to justifying force field for this kind of character in my book. Of course, you've only got it for one hour a day, but I could see it being a great plot point, where you have to finish an assault before all of your force fields drop.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? 15 -- FF 10/10, +1/4 Hardened, costs END to activate 12 -- Armor 10/10, +1/4 Hardened, -1/4 visible, -1/4 non-persistent It looks to me that the armor is 3 points cheaper and acts the same in every way except that it doesn't cost END to activate.

Re: Force Field Is No Good? Why wouldn't you just buy the armor with +1/4 nonpersistent and +1/4 visible for an equal benefit and still 0 END cost? True, armor is technically illegal in ECs and FF could work better in MPs -- provided you didn't mind their high endurance cost and non-persistence. I just don't understand why anyone would ever want to depend on a non-persistent defence. What good is that? The first time you're stunned you're defenceless. There are lots of MPs that use non-endurance-costing armor -- I couldn't tell if you thought this didn't happen. Common examples are any shield, like Black Paladin's or Mechassassins's.

Isn't armor superior in every way? It seems like these two powers should be equivalent to each other, but they're not by a long shot. Suppose you try to make your force field act like armor. For sixty points, you'll get: 60 -- +10 PD, +10 ED forcefield, +1/2 persistent, +1/2 costs 0 END, +1 fully invisible 60 -- +20 PD, +20 ED armor In this case, armor is twice as strong for the same cost. Okay, but that +1 fully invisible is a ridiculous price to pay for a defence. Who cares if someone sees our force field? We're super heros! But remember you can take a 1/4 disad on your armor to make it visible, too. So you get: 60 -- +15 PD, +15 ED forcefield, +1/2 persistent, +1/2 costs 0 END 60 -- +25 PD, +25 ED armor, -1/4 visible Armor wins by a landslide again. The only way to make force field competitive is to forget about persistent and do something like: 60 -- +24 PD, +24 ED force field, +1/4 costs END only to activate But force field still isn't as good, plus it costs END to activate, plus it drops whenever you get stunned or knocked out. The only times force field "wins" is when you buy it straight up: 60 -- +30 PD, +30 ED forcefield Even then you're only getting +5 PD, +5 ED, plus you're spending 6 END per phase on it, plus it's not persistent. So the only times anyone would ever buy force field are: 1) When you've got a ridiculously high CON so that you don't get stunned AND you play in a campaign where villains never take potshots at unconscious heros -- in other words, persistent defences don't do anything for you – AND you have so much END that you don't care about spending it, 2) Force field is a "luxury" defense that you can fight without 3) Only force field fits your character conception and you don't care about efficiency, or 4) You put your force field in an EC. This last one only works because armor won't go in an EC (because it doesn't cost any endurance). Even still I see people try to cheese their armor into an EC slot by making it cost END to activate or something. To me this is a red flag that the character may have cheese in other places in their character design. So what am I missing? Force field can be pushed and armor can't. How often does that happen? What am I missing? Why would anyone ever buy force field?

Re: Effective builds Wouldn't you want that sense ranged, as well?

Re: Effective builds Here's some powers I think synergize well: 1) Invisibility + Strength + Stretching Strength attacks (or martial arts attacks) are far and away the best for Invisibility characters, since they get the "free" advantage that they have fully invisible "special effects." Stretching makes your STR ranged and indirect at a flat rate, 5 points per inch, regardless of how much strength you've got. It's very hard to locate a stretching invisible character, and meanwhile he's knocking you silly. 2) N-ray Vision + Teleportation + Stretching with +1/4 "does not cross intervening space" advantage N-ray vision synergizes well with a lot of powers, teleportation being an obvious one, since you can teleport anyplace you can see without danger. The cool twist is adding stretching with the +1/4 "does not cross intervening space" advantage. This allows you to teleport behind a wall and then punch someone on the other side. A character with this combination of powers is almost impossible to defeat inside. He also makes a good thief, since he can reach inside bank vaults – even those that have been hardened against teleportation. Combine 1) and 2) and you've got my favorite character, that rascal Phase Strike. The only addition is to buy a slot on his teleportation that's fully invisible, make the invisibility good versus most senses, and voila! A very versatile character, and one tough for even very high-powered villains to defeat (without special preparation). It's hard to find him and hard to keep up with him. His natural vulnerabilities are mentalists, characters with large VPPs, and the Black Paladin, who can teleport after him and sense his soul (who for this reason makes an exciting hunted). 3) N-ray vision + tunneling with +10 "fill in" adder + indirect attacks Here's another good synergy with N-ray vision. Tunnel down 6" or so, closing your tunnel behind you, and begin firing whatever indirect attack you have. Telekinesis is a natural. You can also get a 9 and 1/2 d6 EB, "always fires from the ground up" for 60 points, or 7 and 1/2 d6 indirect armor-piercing EB for 61. All of these powers go well with an "Earth Elemental" conception. This character is hard to find, and even if you find him he's tough to fire back at. Six hexes of dirt between him and the fight, at 10 Body per hex of dirt, is a lot. Unless you've got tunnelling yourself, it'll take five or six phases to blast down to him, at which point he leisurely tunnels over a half move and you have to start all over again. 4) Tunneling with +1/2 "at range" advantage Adding the "at range" advantage to tunneling is a great way to take out structures or anything that moves really slowly, like tanks or zombies. For 60 points you can get 8" of tunneling at range, which will either allow you to drop someone 8" into the ground, or drop 8 hexes 1" into the ground. A million and one uses! Dex rolls and diving for cover and etc. become key, which is why this works best against things with rotten dex, like the aforementioned tanks and zombies, though it also works great against normals in general. Great for turning those Viper firing lines to a shambles. This is another combo that fits well with an "Earth Elemental" conception. Call it "earth moving" and you're good to go. Best of all, you don't have to buy the "usable as attack" advantage because you're not tunneling SOMEONE, you're just tunneling the ground under them, and letting gravity do the work. 5) BODY drains Even a little body drain does amazing things against structures, since these very rarely have power defence. Given a little time you can eat through the toughest vault doors or handcuffs. 6) Low STR + martial arts damage classes + high speed For when you want to play the little girl with super-powered martial arts, buy 5 STR, +9 damage classes, and high speed. This gives her some interesting options in combat: a 12d6 punch, a 6 1/2 d6 NND "low blow" martial attack, a 3 1/2 d6 HKA karate chop, etc. The key is that damage classes don't cost any END, and so fit well with a speedster character. Give her a 10 speed, you don't care! You're only spending 1 END per phase with her 5 STR. This character also has interesting limitations. She can martial throw Grond across the room, has 65 strength to escape grabs, and can punch her way through a wall, but can't lift a kitchen table or escape even a 3 DEF entangle. She makes a great villain for characters who are blasting their way out of every problem, when she can be taken down with that little one-hex entangle. Make her bratty, filthy rich, and loved by the media, and you've got one of the favorite villains in my campaign. 7) Force Walls transparent to energy damage For 63 points, you can build a 16 PD, 0 ED, 2" forcewall that's transparent to energy damage. This is a versatile, fun, and effective power in combat. 2" is enough to "englobe" people, effectively trapping them. If you're in a 12 DC cap campaign, the only way they can get out is by haymakering, which will leave them at -5 DCV for your compatriots to pick off. Of course, you can also cast it on yourself – particularly effective if your own attacks are indirect or energy and so pass through harmlessly. 8) Force Walls transparent to physical damage and opaque to normal sight For 63 points, you can build a 0 PD, 12 ED, 2" forcewall that's transparent to physical damage and completely opaque to normal sight. Another very creative power! Anyone can run through it without bringing it down. At the same time, the opacity of it is great for screening things. If you use it to englobe someone it's as good as a 1-hex darkness, since all light will be shut off. If you use it to englobe yourself, no one will be able to see you, and will have to resort to attacking your hex. If you have a good non-sight targeting sense, you've just incidentally given yourself a big DCV boost. Cast it on yourself, close to HTH range, and your opponent will be fighting you blind. My telekinetic character has both 7) and 8), and they make for interesting combats. 9) Extra time + telepathy or mind control Okay, here's a cheesy one to close. Either of these powers can be very useful when time is no object. With a healthy bonus for taking extra time, you can gain unshakeable control over someone, or plunder all their secrets. For 12 points, a -1 1/2 "takes one minute" time disad will give you 30 active points. With this you can buy: 1d6 Telepathy (or Mind Control), +2 x4 penetrating, +1/2 cumulative, +1/2 invisible to mental senses, +2 = x1024 maximum effect Just hang around Dr. Destroyer for a while and he'll become your slave and you can learn everything he knows about technology. He'll never even know what's happening. All for the low, low price of 12 points! See? Cheesy. But the rest of these seem to me like plain old good character design.