zornwil

It works now - good reading! I don't have time but will read more later.

Re the first question I would go beyond the answer just given and while I agree with it as a general rule (and I understand it probably is the general rule) you'd still have to weigh in on special effects. If a tight rope is wound around everyone at once (rather than wrapping around each individually or being a mess of ropes that are hard to get out of in general) then when someone snaps it, all can go free. I know, this is obvious, but because I'm not sure of the intent of the question I am throwing it in.

I got page cannot be displayed.

In my games I would toss physics out the window and let fly. But I have never run a "hard realism" sort of game.

Cool, good deal.

I'll have to dig it up, there is one. Cosmetic stuff, like outside lighting piped in, is just SFX with no real points FYI.

I can't take credit for this, one of the players did it, it's very nice. http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/x-champions_issues/justice_squad_base.htm

I'll set up a home for these soon, as they add to a substantive number.

Oh I generally try to, I call it 5th edition or 5th ed. generally and I think this is the first time I've called it out. But ENOUGH is ENOUGH! Sometimes you have to make a stand!!

I think a good reason for 6th would be to move on from this "FREd" monicker. Yuck.

http://www.alteregosoftware.com 5th ed. template (free) is at http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/Other%20Software/index.htm MUCH RESPECT TO HERO GAMES for putting the MC template on their site - as well as of course to Christopher Mullins for doing all the hard work.

Sorry, I copied and pasted the text not the links. Here you go...please note they will LOOK the same on the page but the actual underlying URL is in the hyperlink so just click on them... http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=278 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1383

I think you're thinking of HeroMaker - ?

The only math issue I'm aware of is the whole rounding thing, which has been a bit of a debate in any event, although by all means now HD is compliant with Steve's latest rulings and MC is not on that count. Can you please be more specific, with an example? Anyway, here's some threads in response to the original poster, I highly encourage these - apparently the last time they persuaded somebody to buy it - despite my best efforts! (just kidding, you'll see I have some negative opinions on HD but I do think it is highly useful for a lot, if not most, of HERO followers) http://www.herogames.com/forums/sho...s=&threadid=278 http://www.herogames.com/forums/sho...=&threadid=1383

Good point. Regarding sourcebooks and characters represented in sourcebooks, though, I don't want some sort of bland "do something with this" "foundation", I want it to be fleshed out. Otherwise it's just so much paper I gloss over because it doesn't catch my interest. I'm perfectly capable of creating characters on my own; if something isn't going to interest me then I don't need it. A toolkit character is only good to me as a mechanics example and rarely as inspiration. Regarding rulebooks/systems, though, I prefer the HERO toolkit approach. By the way, speaking of inspiration in rulebooks, I think M&M does do a good "middle ground" job as I just started reading SAS and it's OVERBEARING in its attempt to get you to get into the spirit of it. Really annoying. It's a good example of too much color/character. (By the way, lemming, if you're reading this, don't worry I don't have (and never had) an interest in running SAS, I just wanted to read through it).

I keep looking at that damn avatar you have now. I admit it, I'm easily distracted by "such things".

I just posted something on M&M in another forum stating something similar, I don't see how you can say M&M or, as you state, "standard" d20 is so much simpler when you've got all these modifiers and on top of that, in the case of M&M anyway, there's a number of inconsistencies between different types of attacks, so you have to remember whether a power has a saving throw, what it is, what affects it. So I'm totally with you.

As I've said - POWERGAMER... (just assailing you in multiple places today) The only thing I can probably add to this and it's just a variant on what else has been said is LET YOUR REMAINING VILLAINS RUN AWAY if it's a stalemate and doesn't damage the storyline. Remember that first of all it's a better rationale for them to come back later. Also, don't be afraid if it's appropriate just to say "they're way ahead of you" or "you just don't know where they went" if that's both appropriate and not unfair. Sometimes PCs really want to hunt down the runaways, and that can get old and, if inappropriate, a time-waster. Don't know if this applies for the person who asked, but I've seen it hapen and made the mistake of encouraging it myself.

Thanks much!

Powergamer...

If there's sufficient interest (like at least a dozen people expressing so and at least 20 submissions) I will gladly host a "Legion of USPD Rejects". No disrespect to HERO, just a home for the "broken toys".

I believe it CAN be so long as it's played as a total, where the character: a) never ever kilsl himself (again, he knows he should not even if he believes there are criminals society should execute); stops anyone else from doing so (same thing, he knows they're not the judge and jury); and not necessarily but best-playeed if c) he does everything in his power (investigation, even breaking them out of jail) where he realizes someone in going to be wrongly executed by the state (i.e., they are innocent or the case was purely circumstantial and he knows corruption or prejudice guided the verdict). I say the "c" option because he is total CVK, not total "I follow the law". If he does all 3 things above, he really in my book is being "total" about it. I think he could even do the first 2 if the villains he faces routinely have high defenses and are killers, since he won't use lethal force even against them if he thinks it might penetrate too deeply, AND he stops his teammates from doing so. That's a hard character to play.

Brief PS - re the USPD, the "color" commentary in it was outstanding, and the panels that showed the supers' acting out and the commentary was VERY well-done. It was in fact "M&M-ish" per the comments I made above. A couple or maybe more of those characters mentioned/viewed in passing in USPD will make it into my world at some point I imagine. It would have been great to have seen a little more on a few of them, using them for examples of different things or just some panels from different perspectives (like "we found this video-tape of these 2 supers talking" and showing a couple panels where they discuss powers or one shows another a weapon or whatever).

I agree with the original poster that M&M does a great job with "self-promoting" presentation, a far better one than HERO really BUT... HERO is a fully nuanced system. I do think 5th Edition was TOO dry in its approach and the writing a bit, well, "legalese". On that note, I feel Steve's writing for this sort of work has improved remarkably (as witnessed in the UNTIL Super Database), which isn't to say it was below part to start with, it wasn't, it just had some aspects that have been improved upon since. Anyway, although 5th ed. was "too dry" in my opinion, it includes a horde of usable examples, it fully details out rules, and it has an EXCELLENT index. It deliberately made a choice of using its space to make the rules as clear as possible, to present playability, and to generally expose the internal consistency of the system (although of course HERO does have some inconsistencies, many of which have been the subject of great debates among the HERO community). M&M is new and is not fully nuanced by any stretch. There are a number of aspects of balance which are under scrutiny and even with its errata and faq a number of questions that really represent holes in the system - take a look at the level of questions on their board. They represent more fundamental questions than the ones you see in HERO. That's fine, it's a new system,this is NOT a criticism - compare HERO 1st ed. to 5th ed. and you'll see a massive gulf. So the M&M book has less explication (because there was no real-world "okay, now we have to explain this given what peple ask" experience). Furthermore, much of the space is given to representations of the heroic genre (the little comic strip pieces and such). They willingly valued the presentation above giving more direct rules-related material. Their index is also far less helpful (just try using it during game play, I did in our first game and immediately saw the difference). And in fact I would argue the material is laid out less well, with some things in the "Characteristics" section that bear on "Abilities" or "Combat", requiring mucking about to find things. Just finding a simple ruling on how movement works outside of combat took more time than it should have and we ended up resting on using the vehicle table for simplicity during play - and I don't think that's right, writing this just reminded me to go back and flesh out the real non-tactical movement numbers. Now that I've tried to really use the M&M book in the heat of gameplay, I can say that I have a solid opinion that the HERO book is much better, for all its "dryness" and lack of hype. Of cousre this is a personal opinion, I recognize others will not agree (but they're wrong ). Well, actually, I do go further and I would challenge anyone to prove that M&M's rulebook is really as useful (let alone more useful) in actual gameplay, if you have to look something up. (donning the sunglasses as there will be flash attacks now). Furthermore, M&M and HERO are targeting different people. HERO targets gamer geeks and anyone who wants a "complete" system. M&M targets gamers who want something APPARENTLY simpler (let me tell you, I emphatically do NOT think M&M is a simpler system by the way) and value the "feel" of the system more. Neither approach is wrong, just different target audiences. To that end, I think if HERO weighed too heavily on the presentation/glitz side you'd see a loss in its current following, and given its rep it would take a few years to develop a new following. (I'm not suggesting the original poster wants such a change in direction, I understand they indicated nothing "radical"). As far as modules go, I looked at (but did not buy) the Crisis book and I really didn't find it any better than some of the better HERO modules. But this area is hard for me to comment on because I almost never buy modules. Now, as far as the CU vs whatever the M&M universe is called (M&MU I guess), ah, well, I must say...I like M&MU characters much better. Maybe I'm just seduced by the color - maybe. But I really really like Gimmick and the Pugilist and Protonik, even just the text bits, far far better than anything I've seen in SAS or CU (any version, including the original Champions, though I sort of liked that early early version however dorky). I also like Lady Hex ten times better than the CU sorcerers past or present, although I wouldn't say I really am that excited about Lady Hex per se. I also browsed Freedom City or whatever that is (again, didn't buy it though I might actually though I don't but those sorts of books either usually) and there's a couple promising characters in there as well. I browsed Millennium City and was less interested in those characters, although I will say that some of them seem a bit more interesting than the Champions. Anyway, my point is that I actually WILL use the M&M characters (which is why I might even buy their universe books whereas I've never bought a Champions universe book) in my games and I've never used (I think) a Champions character. Why the difference to me? Hard to say. Some of it is artwork. The characters "look" more interesting to me. But some of it is also the quotes and actions attributed to the M&M characters. They seem just as genre-correct but somehow less bland to me. Defender and Ironclad and the like seem like overt ripoffs of characters. Gimmick seems entirely original even though she's just as clearly an archetype. By the way, I also like the fact that the artwork presented Gimmick in both her anime-ish look and her "realistic" representation - that went a long way for me in seeing the character in different lights. Oh, and speaking of artworik, the picture of Gimmick playing a game while disarming a bomb was just priceless. Anyway, same with Protonik, the single panel of him far above the world looking down was great, it really made a convincing feel for the character and all it included were a couple paragraphs and a picture. I don't think the deciding factor was the literal color at all, either. Obviously this is way deep into personal taste. I mean no offense to Steve or anyone else at HERO, I think it's possible they're interested in knowing this sort of reaction as it may influence how they present characters and what choices they make in artwork and writing. But frankly it would make no difference as far as me buying the core books and I suspect for what HERO presents it really is AND SHOULD BE a secondary consideration. In fact I think that HERO will stand for a considerable period of time on its merits as a truly coherent and usable set of rules, something which will require a more detailed, more dry body of work (at least for the rules and genre books that is). I bring up the characterization of universe archetypes as I think (?) the original poster of this thread is reacting to much the same thing - or at least I'd be interested to hear if he is. Sorry for the lengthy post, hope it's of interest though.

Re: Re: Batman and Killing Hey, Trebuchet, EXCELLENT avatar, nice choice, wish I'd thought of it.