Doc Democracy

Nice to see you Sean but I reckon, in the past 11 years, the OP has probably made their decisions. 😁

Well, I was thinking of a three attack autofire, with a boost to one of them (the bite). 🙂 D&D poison has all kinds of effects beyond killing. I might be inclined, for save versus death, to give certain SFX death effects, and for everyman to have a physical complication, make a CON roll or die when subjected to that SFX. Even for instant death stuff, giving vulnerabilities etc can really dial up the lethality for PCs. It is easy to build spells that are all or nothing and to limit the flexibility of mages. I am thinking of mages with very flexible cantrip level magic and fixed spells as they progress through the wizardly "levels". It will not be D&D, don't want to play that, but it should feel like Greyhawk. Would not need 6E to do that, but I think 6E is a better tool than 1E. Doc

OK. You can use any system to play any setting. Often using the system you all know is better than any other system for ease of gameplay. However, a well-thought-through system drives and rewards actions that enhance the setting and deters actions that go against the setting mores. Often it comes down to how much effort you want, and need, given your group, to drive the game you want to run.

I disagree, not about the complexity, but about needless. 1E and 6E are performing entirely different tasks. 1E is giving you a very specific game experience, 6E is giving you the tools to create multiple game experiences. Now, if you are content with the granted experience 6E is not needed. If you want to create both Newhon and Greyhawk and Glorantha experiences, then 6E is a better toolbox than 1E.

You are too late Duke, I got there in 2015, scroll up!

Hmm. I do believe Duke just said what I said but added detail and did so in fewer words! Surely that is a first and possibly worth celebrating?!? I endorse this perspective of edition comparisons...

If you enjoyed Fantasy HERO in first edition, you can continue to play it. HERO has been on a journey, going from a bunch of related games (Champions, Fantasy HERO, Justice Inc, Danger International) to a generic underlying system HERO System. The big books like 6E Fantasy HERO do not give you a playable game but instead guidance on how to build a variety of fantasy games with different flavours. One of which might indeed be first edition Fantasy HERO! Unless you are desperate to build the game you want to play (or have an interest in reading round the tropes of various fantasy genres) stick to the books you own. You will quickly be gaming. I found the Fantasy HERO book useful as I tried to decide how I will package the HERO System for my players to play in Greyhawk. Doc I quoted just the beginning. OMG, what a huge post! 🙂 @Duke Bushidohas a post size rival! 😁😇

THAT, is a lot of work. Very generous to share.

Am a huge fan of Runequest and a lot of my inspiration for more bespoke magic has come from running games in Glorantha. Binding spirits into items is almost the default in Glorantha!

All good points, I could (but wont) go into the differences between setting and system. I was commenting on Mr R's question about what about the various gods asking for items to be made for their members. This was going to the question of the numbers of wizzards etc. I think that when anyone thinks of a magical item being made, they often envisage an artificer type wizard rather than a cleric. I am all for popping that particular balloon. Your comments however reinforce my concerns about magic items being made via the clerical route having a different feel in-game to those made through wizardry. D&D made no real distinction which I think is a bit detrimental to the setting (and one I intend to rectify). Obviously there will be items that may require oth arcane and clerical input - I am immediately looking at you +5 Holy Avenger longsword.... 🙂 Doc That is indeed another use for those low level magic items. Again, I would be making the distinction - the PC could pay gold and have this better item artificed for them (and almost certainly lose at some point in the future) or, for a better story, spend XP, do it themself and have an item that they will only ever lose temporarily (or when an even better story opportunity arises). Doc

Trust issues or thrust issues?? I think Greyhawk was a setting with a sense of humour, it was pre-continuity, pre-grimdark and almost certainly breached the fourth wall on multiple occasions. I reckon you can have it all. Sometimes a +3 sword is just a +3 sword, on others it becomes your annoying sidekick. Doc

What I never understood was why weapons were almost uniquely arcane in nature. If gods want magic weapons then why not provide them to their followers? I have an idea of holy weapons, they are blessed by priests and gain their bonuses via the power of prayer, possibly coming with a small bonus to hit and damage but which have additional benefits that require the "power of prayer". So essentially the weapons have charges or END reserves that can only be re-charged by seeking out a relevant congregation, led by a priest, which draw the deities power back into the weapon. I would even consider only giving the basic benefits to hit and damage as long as a single charge or point of END remains. Using the weapon delivers a relationship with the deity and the wielder would be watched by the God, ensuring it was used "properly". I don't think religions should need to rely on wizards for magic.

While I am all for taking foci from people, inconveniencing and frustrating players depending on the discounts they sought when building their characters, I was never in favour of them losing experience points. Items should come and go, unless points are paid for them. If XP has been used then SOMEHOW that item finds its way back into their hands. The reason that some weapons are part of the character sheet and others exist purely in the equipment list.

I am inclined to think of it more like a shard of his life-force, something more single-minded and not a full-fledged personality. However, sometimes the whole personality is there and perhaps, for a while, submerged until something provokes it into revealing itself. Or the shard has grown over time gecoming more rounded. 🙂 So many better ways than just giving a +3 on a weapon.

I am intending to make good use of the legacy stuff I have. I reckon I am going to start with "Fate of Istus" before seguing into "Five shall be one" and "Howl from the north". I think that will be enough to get started.

If I didnt know you had been about for as long as I have, I would think you had never met a HERO GM. Don't overthink?!! You might as well tell me to play D&D!! 😄 It will be the ability of monsters to do lots of damage upfront that will make them scarier than almost anything else. Three killing attacks each phase...

I hope not! 😄

Almost like saying Lord of the Rings is a bit of a generic quest against Big Evil. Just happened to be the one everything else copied or kicked off from/against. 🙂 This thread is relatively meta, but it does ask the question of what are the tropes that make that faux-European setting. What was Gygax reaching for while being limited in how that was expressed by his game system? What is it about D&D that makes it feel like a D&D setting? WotC got it wrong in 4th Edition. While it may have been been a decent system, people did not feel D&D when playing it. I want to incentivise folk to hug the D&D feels while being liberated to escape the limitations, so am exploring what that means for creating the game. I like to think the magic items found in wilderness and dungeons were mundane items imbued with the spirit of the person wearing/using it when they died under heroic circumstances. That +3 Shield was held by Ardra who held back a horde of orcs while his comrades escaped. It wasn't magical when he was using it but part of his departing life-force remained in that object, helping defend others even after his death.

I do too. I want a better system but if I let the players go wild I don't think I will get the Greyhawk feel that I want/need. 🙂 I am not going to stick to the limitations if D&D, and so some of the mix and match you are talking about is indeed what I am aiming for, I just need it to make sense in the setting.

oh! oh! the Road Crew

There is definitely a place for one-off "named" items. And for the low level +1s, I mean how else are you supposed to beat creatures that need +1 weapons or greater to hit?? 🙂

I like mundane names that sound innocuous but, if you know, it really isn't. I have been racking my brain for something topical and the best I can manage is the Street Sweepers. 🙂 I went through all kinds of combinations but too many of them ended up sounding a bit too local government-y (and not in a good way).

My thoughts are that anyone could be involved with magic but, if you cannot find a mentor, you might, regardless of talent, languish, casting cantrips your whole life. A mentor opens up windows in your mind that allow you to channel greater magics. I am thinking that clever use of the VPP rules might limit the power available to a wizard. Your mentor initiates you to the "first level". In game terms, this allows you to cast magic by buying a VPP. It is small. Your spellbook contains a few scripted spells (I am thinking each spell is a knowledge skill) and you have no ability to vary your spells. When you have gained experience, and gold, you might seek out your old master (a contact or relationship in game) or another mentor to take your magic to the next level. This would require you to spend gold, or lean into a relationship, but the XP spend opens up the VPP a bit and gives you the ability to free cast bigger spells and to maintain more lower power ones. You could gain spells by finding other people's spellbooks or doing research (spending XP on more KS). This means you need to maintain relationships with the right people, or to spend lots of gold etc with those who are more mercenary, if you want to progress. I have it in my mind to use the old names from first edition AD&D for levels up to "name level" to get hierarchies of training. This limits how and when folk might spend experience on certain things but it ties stuff into the setting. you should be able to progress but you will do so more spectacularly by buying into the settings conceits. I always thought of it as arcane meditations rather than napping, regardless of how it looked to other people. 🙂

Now I like the almost Sith-like idea of the master and apprentice but how does a low entry and low number of wizards sit comfortably with the extensive supply of magic weapons and items? Whatever else, Greyhawk has a magical economy with potions, scrolls, wands etc as part of its essence. or is that not the Greyhawk you experienced? Are we saying that casters are rare but smiths, apothecaries, etc., are reasonably common? That, given time and the right materials, many folk can imbue magic into an item, and that master-craftsmen are the ones creating the finest stuff? But it takes a wizard to walk the world and cast magic at will? I can see that working. I can also see the economy of adventurers out hunting for the materials for the finest stuff and possibly just getting by, selling the detritus that goes into the more common magic items.

Interesting insight. Should I be putting something in to that effect? Is there a game reason that wizards keep a distance? Is wizard magic more difficult when there are lots of people about? Does it have side-effects that only become apparent with long term continuous exposure?