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Flash+Defense: possible House Rule


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I've no idea what 6E says on the subject, as I've stuck with 5ER mostly, so here are a few random thoughts.

 

Flash seems reasonably priced for a single sense.  

When expanded to other senses, is it 6d6 Flash Sight and Hearing for 48(8*6) points(seems expensive) or 9d6 Sight and Hearing for 50(45+5) points(too cheap)?  

 

Seems about the same for Flash Defense, 1 point for +1 defense, but paying that again for each sense means sinking a lot of points into a defense that rarely used, or rarely has an effect?

 

Would it be better to price additional senses as an Advantage?  At a +1/4 per added sense group, affecting all senses just doubles the price rather than quintuples it.

 

Discussion and opinions please?

 

Chris.

 

 
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Flash attacks only shut down the sense they are targetting. If the attack is rarely used, or rarely has an effect, why are you buying a defense against it? Let the sewer monster flash your sense of smell all it wants. You're not targetting him with your roto-rooter gun using that sense. AVAD makes things a little different, although they do give non-sight/sound a higher slot level for the advantage.

 

As to 6E, yes, it is relatively inexpensive to add an additional sense to your flash. No, I don't have a specific reason why the defenses shouldn't be allowed to do the same. I just don't know why you need it.

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The only sense that really maters enough to flash is Sight. Because that is the targetting sense for 95% of all supers.

4% will likely have some hearing or smell based targetting sense, with hearing much more likely.

The remaining 1% will have some targetting sense not tied to any existing sense group, so you would need a specific flash against that on sense any way.

 

Hearing is the close 2nd Sense to flash. Aside from affecting those 4% it can allow you to get a drop on the enemy.

Touch can be a quite effective sense to flash, due to the combat penalties for lacking it.

If you want to make a "counter mentalist", consider Flash to Sight+Mental group. After all Mind Scan works on the Mental Group, taking away both mental targetting senses (leaving only touch).

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Flash Defense or an alternate Targeting Sense should be high on your list of requirements in a Supers setting. Being Flashed against a ranged combatant is an almost certain defeat. 

 

Flash is overpowered in Fantasy and Heroic settings unless it is very rare and kept to low DC's

 

But how does Christougher's suggestion address that?

 

The one instance I can think of is a character with an additional targetting sense, Perhaps a non-blind Daredevil who can target with hearing or sight, or a robot who has sight and radar. To them, buying flash defense for both costs 200% of buying for one of them, while an opponent can (if he's specifically prepared for that hero or has a versatile vpp) apply their flash attack towards both for +10 base points. That is an inconsistency in the system that exists (I believe) for no other reason than because the designers didn't want someone to have to pay 50 pts for a 10D6 sight flash and 50 pts for a 10D6 radar flash. With power frameworks, that's a much lessoned worry. I'd remove the cheap buying up of additional senses before I'd suggest changing flash defense.

 

I don't feel that flash is overpowered. It costs 5 pts/damage class but each dc only gives you an average of one phase where a hero can't use one sense, and additional flashes don't work until the last one wears off. I do dislike flash because, like power defense, mental defense, resistant defense, etc., it is one more thing you have to defend against in a system which also has physical and energy attacks, entangles which can't really be defended against so much as overcome, baleful teleports or UaA movement powers, and just about everything else. As boring as other games can sometimes be with combat (I roll to hit, then roll damage, you roll to hit, then roll damage back), Heroes often becomes a game of "let's take turns trying out different powers we've designed against one another until one of us finds something the other didn't put points into defense against."

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I would agree that Flash isn't really overpriced since it usually only blinds (typically) for a number of segments equal to the number of dice thrown.  For a slow character, they may completely recover from the Flash before they have an active phase come up, so effects aren't overwhelming (although their DCV will be hampered of course).

 

Part of me would argue that Flash Defense is really cheap and you don't need much to skunk most Flash attacks, but I have run into this issue before in a campaign where extra senses were the norm.  We applied a +½ Advantage to extend Flash Defense to a second sense, similar to the way Adjustment powers can affect a second characteristic for a +½ Advantage.  More senses could be added in the same way if desired.  The cost savings isn't huge, but then as I said, Flash Defense isn't really expensive to begin with.  It did make the expanded Flash Defense more palatable to pay for though.

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What about making it the same cost as added senses for the flash offensive ability? Flash defense is cheap, costs 1pt/level, and applies to one targetting sense (or non-targetting if you really like). Each additional targetting sense it applies to costs +10 pts, and +5 pts for a non-targetting sense. This would actually be more expensive than most people put into secondary flash defenses, but in high level games it would pay off, since you would apply your full flash defense to all of your paid-for senses.

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The one instance I can think of is a character with an additional targetting sense, Perhaps a non-blind Daredevil who can target with hearing or sight, or a robot who has sight and radar. To them, buying flash defense for both costs 200% of buying for one of them, while an opponent can (if he's specifically prepared for that hero or has a versatile vpp) apply their flash attack towards both for +10 base points. That is an inconsistency in the system that exists (I believe) for no other reason than because the designers didn't want someone to have to pay 50 pts for a 10D6 sight flash and 50 pts for a 10D6 radar flash. With power frameworks, that's a much lessoned worry. I'd remove the cheap buying up of additional senses before I'd suggest changing flash defense.

Having an alternative targetting sense is already the ULTIMATIVE Flash/Darkness/Images/Shape Shift defense.

Because aside from some utility uses you can function perfectly fine without sight (as long as you got an alternative targetting sense). So your are immune to 99% of the effects of a sight targetting sense affecting powers already.

 

Actually tailoring an Adventure/enemy to Flash Sight+Radar in your example would be very mean of the GM.

The player spend considerable points to have that power. It would be like making an enemy with the sole purpose to be immune to the attacks of every group member all at once.

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Actually tailoring an Adventure/enemy to Flash Sight+Radar in your example would be very mean of the GM.

The player spend considerable points to have that power. It would be like making an enemy with the sole purpose to be immune to the attacks of every group member all at once.

 

Well no, it would be the same as making an enemy with the sole purpose to be immune to the attacks of one specific member. It would be metagaming, pure and simple. It has its storytelling uses (once everyone knows that Superman is vuolnerable to Kryptonite, you'd better believe every crook will try to get a chunk), but you are right that it should be reserved for enemies who have every story-based right to be specifically spending their points to circumvent the heroes' abilities.

 

However, I think the inconsistency of the fact that enhancing flash to include another targetting sense costs a flat 10 pts and enhancing flash defense costs a geometric 100% of total is the main issue.

 

As for myself, it makes sense that a flash-bang grenade would be a sight and sound flash effect. A sight+ radar flash would be a lot harder to justify.

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Most of the time when you see this in stories it is reactionary.

 

For example villain Mr. E has had his goons stopped five time by the hero Android. Mr. E decides to invent a radar jammer, flash bomb and quantum net to capture the Android and make him pay.

 

It happens all the time in comics and can be very appropriate.

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However, I think the inconsistency of the fact that enhancing flash to include another targetting sense costs a flat 10 pts and enhancing flash defense costs a geometric 100% of total is the main issue.

 

As for myself, it makes sense that a flash-bang grenade would be a sight and sound flash effect. A sight+ radar flash would be a lot harder to justify.

You might missundertand something here:

The pricing for targetting/non-targetting senses is based on the specific campaign.

In a normal campaign Sight is the only really likely targetting sense (because nearly everyone get's it for free). Some will buy alternative or additional ones, but this one covers 95% of all characters.

 

If a significant portion of the players and/or adversaries use an alternate sense group for targetting (a campaing where a lot of critters target by hearing), then the GM can just declare hearing a targetting sense group for purposes of buying sense affecting powers.

For example a Flashbang in such a setting would cost for affecting two targettng sense groups (not one plus one non-targetting).

Also the GM is in his rights to reduce the cost of any additonal targetting sense (after the 2nd), as they have diminishing effect.

 

If it is enough of an issues for a house rule, it might just be easier to use the full power of the base rule instead.

 

 

Most of the time when you see this in stories it is reactionary.

 

For example villain Mr. E has had his goons stopped five time by the hero Android. Mr. E decides to invent a radar jammer, flash bomb and quantum net to capture the Android and make him pay.

 

It happens all the time in comics and can be very appropriate.

"Can" is the core word.

Not everything survives the translation between Medias.

Translating your example into a RPG setting runs straight into the "many authors" problem.

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No, I think everyone is on the same page here.

 

I suppose in your example, you can simply state that if you buy a flash effect for a sense that may or may not be targetting, you have to buy it up as a targetting sense if you want it to affect the targetting sense. If you only buy it as a non-targetting sense, you will deafen most people with your white-noise bomb, but Daredevil can still "see" just fine.

 

"If it is enough of an issues for a house rule, it might just be easier to use the full power of the base rule instead."

 

Full power of what base rule?

 

And why does your campaign, with a single GM, run into the "many authors" problem, and how is it relevant? If your character consistently uses the same power against reaccuring opponents, they at times ought to be able to plan ahead and take precautions. Why does that not translate into an RPG?

 

 

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