A Speed idea (not a rule change)

[mrinku]

This has likely been bought up at some point, but I just had a thought in the shower that the speed chart is a lot simpler if you just use those speeds that are factors of 12: 1,2,3,4,6 and 12.

 

Each of these matches up with a broad category of character, too:

 

1 = Impaired

2 = Normal

3 = Trained

4 = Highly Trained

6 = Superhuman

12 = Speedster Superhuman

 

So... instead of having those annoying non-factor speeds cluttering up your combats, tell your players that can only choose those speeds when designing their characters. Think of it as a campaign ground rule (which it is).

 

You can still use the other speed points when required if adjustment powers are in play; but by limiting the usual ones to these it should help speed things up a bit.

[Sean Waters]

I am all for using campaign and build guidelines to get the feel and flavour you want in your game before trying to change the rules.  

[DreadDomain]

This has likely been bought up at some point, but I just had a thought in the shower that the speed chart is a lot simpler if you just use those speeds that are factors of 12: 1,2,3,4,6 and 12.

 

Each of these matches up with a broad category of character, too:

 

1 = Impaired

2 = Normal

3 = Trained

4 = Highly Trained

6 = Superhuman

12 = Speedster Superhuman

 

So... instead of having those annoying non-factor speeds cluttering up your combats, tell your players that can only choose those speeds when designing their characters. Think of it as a campaign ground rule (which it is).

 

You can still use the other speed points when required if adjustment powers are in play; but by limiting the usual ones to these it should help speed things up a bit.

That is a pretty cool approach!

[DasBroot]

I usually set a limit of 6 and see a lot of 4 and 6 as a result.

 

One guy took a 5 and threw me for a loop, as I design villains with 3, 4, and 6 primarily.  That unfettered phase 5 has been used to great effect (haymakers and recovery actions), forcing the enemies to have one guy hold their 4 to make sure this doesn't happen once they figure out what is happening.

 

So I guess you trust the 'hail of dice' approach for keeping someone who holds their 2 or 4 to act in 3 and 5 in line?

[Surrealone]

This has likely been bought up at some point, but I just had a thought in the shower that the speed chart is a lot simpler if you just use those speeds that are factors of 12: 1,2,3,4,6 and 12.

 

Each of these matches up with a broad category of character, too:

 

1 = Impaired

2 = Normal

3 = Trained

4 = Highly Trained

6 = Superhuman

12 = Speedster Superhuman

 

So... instead of having those annoying non-factor speeds cluttering up your combats, tell your players that can only choose those speeds when designing their characters. Think of it as a campaign ground rule (which it is).

 

You can still use the other speed points when required if adjustment powers are in play; but by limiting the usual ones to these it should help speed things up a bit.

Help speed things up a bit?  Not if you're the guy who wants to play a SPD 7 character so that you get to go on Segments 6 and 7 in back-to-back fashion for the tactical advantage it yields; if you're that guy, this proposal hoses you.  DasBroot's SPD 5 example underscores what I'm talking about -- tactical play based on oddball SPDs are actually 'a thing' with many players.  And for the record, that guy (who wants to play SPD 7 ... for the reason I just mentioned) is a far cry from SPD 12 ... and shouldn't incur that kind of cost. 

 

My point:

I get that you may want to simplify ... but if you do, you remove not only certain speeds, but also certain tactics and types of play from your game ... and may, as a result, end up with a game which doesn't appeal to as many people.

 

I'm personally not 'that guy' (who needs/wants a SPD7), but even I would likely avoid a game with the sort of limitation you propose -- because I prefer GMs who espouse a wide array of colours when it comes to options/tactics ... as opposed to GMs who paint everyone with only 7 colours out of what I perceive to be laziness (you say 'simplicity', I say 'lazy' -- two sides of the same coin).  i.e. I'd rather play in a game with a GM who is using the Crayola 64-colour box to colour his world ... rather than with a GM who uses the  8-colour box ... despite the 64-colour box being available.  If you're ok turning off some players with/by your approach, then by all means, proceed; there's no right or wrong in this -- just your preference(s), your choice(s), and the consequence(s) thereof.

[Joe Walsh]

Someone needs to write an article titled, "How I stopped worrying and learned to love the Speed Chart."

 

There's been so much discussion about SPD over the years, it's obviously an issue for many people. For one, the Speed Chart is a huge part of HERO System that's not in any other game out there, so it's weird. But it's also something that's been there from the beginning and has retained its central role in every new edition. So it's important. It's part of the game and, as Surrealone pointed out, there are tactics built around it. Heck, the Haymaker practically requires it.

 

Personally, I'm comfortable with using the Speed Chart. It is part of the unique flavor of HERO System, and if used right, it's delicious!

 

I do find it's very important to set guidelines appropriate to the campaign (no high-SPD characters in standard Heroic campaigns, for example, and guidelines per archetype in Superheroic campaigns), and I reject characters that don't follow my guidelines. Not everyone's comfortable with doing all that, though, so I understand. And I love and encourage house-ruling, so I don't mean to criticize anyone. I'm just stating my observations and how I've come to handle it.

[Jagged]

I can't imagine playing a game with players operating at SPD 6 and SPD 12. Seems like there would be a shed load of game play issues.

[Surrealone]

That's just it -- there AREN'T a lot of gameplay issues at those speeds ... presuming the GM has set appropriate guidelines for archetypes.  Going fast (and first, a la DEX and/or Lightning Reflexes) is so expensive (and usually Endurance-costly) that that it practically rules out hitting hard ... so you end up with a character who can act a lot, but doesn't tend to hit very hard when s/he acts and who also tends not to be able to take a hit terribly well.  The solution for speedsters, of course, is to AoE them -- so that you're hitting an area rather than the high-Dex, high-SPD characters ... and to do it right after they've taken an action so they cannot Abort to a Dive for Cover or Flying Dodge -- preferably when they are adjacent to you (i.e. when you are targeting DCV 0 instead of DCV 3).

[Doc Democracy]

I wouldn't be so sure, acting every segment is powerful and attracts a LOT of spotlight. The others were SPD 4 and 5.

 

I built a SPD 12 speedster for a golden age game and he outshone every other character. We never allowed another SPD 12 in any game.

[DasBroot]

Also getting the cost to 'hit hard' down isn't difficult if you're using a standard DC game.  For 200 points (before limitations) you can get a 12 speed, a 60 base cost DC 12 attack, and 30 dexterity.

 

Is 200 a lot? Yes... but the brick with speed 4 will end up spending that easily on his attributes as well if you let him on str, con, body, and stun.

 

And be completely outclassed in a fight.

[Surrealone]

Completely outclassed?  I don't agree.  So long as the brick's speed is not known by the speedster (to prevent meta-gaming), the brick has a fighting chance because the speedster has no idea how many actions the brick gets (could be 2, 3, 4, 5 ... maybe even 6 per turn depending on the kind of brick it is) or when they occur ... until after a full turn of combat ... and, thus, no idea when to 'safely' switch from offense to defense in the first turn of combat.

 

Now if you're allowing meta-gaming wherein the brick and speedster both know one another's speeds, then yes, the brick can't win ... but only because the speedster is meta-gaming (read ... basically, cheating ... unless the speedster has Sense SPD bought as Discriminatory with Analyze, in which case the speedster actually paid to know SPD at the meta-game detail level and it's not cheating ... but when have you seen a speedster with that?)

[Hyper-Man]

Is it really metagaming for the brick to recognize that his opponent's reactions are 2-3 times faster than his own?

 

HM

[mrinku]

All the more reason to discard some speed ratings. Flash level Super Speed per se needs to be done with powers anyway. Assuming your typical agile super is speed 6 (i.e. Batman, Spiderman, Captain America), the Fastest Man Alive is a whole twice as fast on SPD alone; six times faster than a normal person on the street! (Gosh!).

 

To be honest I mostly left SPD 12 in for completeness because it is a factor of 12. I don't particularly intend to use it for characters.

[Doc Democracy]

Completely outclassed?  I don't agree.  So long as the brick's speed is not known by the speedster (to prevent meta-gaming), the brick has a fighting chance because the speedster has no idea how many actions the brick gets (could be 2, 3, 4, 5 ... maybe even 6 per turn depending on the kind of brick it is) or when they occur ... until after a full turn of combat ... and, thus, no idea when to 'safely' switch from offense to defense in the first turn of combat.

 

Now if you're allowing meta-gaming wherein the brick and speedster both know one another's speeds, then yes, the brick can't win ... but only because the speedster is meta-gaming (read ... basically, cheating ... unless the speedster has Sense SPD bought as Discriminatory with Analyze, in which case the speedster actually paid to know SPD at the meta-game detail level and it's not cheating ... but when have you seen a speedster with that?)

There is more wrong with this than I want to go into. However, you picked up the key detail wrong, it was not that I outclassed one of the villain bricks, I outperformed all of the other characters in my group. It wasn't just the bricks that were annoyed and it was not just a character thing, it annoyed the players. I was getting three times as much of the GMs attention than several other players. The spotlight came to me EVERY segment and sometimes two or three times before another player.

 

The villains are another matter but from that I learned that SPD 12 villains would be a real handful for most groups to deal with (I made a Deathstroke rip-off with SPD 12 on the back of my learning here and he was roundly hated by every group I put him up against).

 

Doc

[DasBroot]

Completely outclassed?  I don't agree.  So long as the brick's speed is not known by the speedster (to prevent meta-gaming), the brick has a fighting chance because the speedster has no idea how many actions the brick gets (could be 2, 3, 4, 5 ... maybe even 6 per turn depending on the kind of brick it is) or when they occur ... until after a full turn of combat ... and, thus, no idea when to 'safely' switch from offense to defense in the first turn of combat.

 

Now if you're allowing meta-gaming wherein the brick and speedster both know one another's speeds, then yes, the brick can't win ... but only because the speedster is meta-gaming (read ... basically, cheating ... unless the speedster has Sense SPD bought as Discriminatory with Analyze, in which case the speedster actually paid to know SPD at the meta-game detail level and it's not cheating ... but when have you seen a speedster with that?)

 

I would just take my chances and throw a punch on 1 and then Hold every segment after until the brick goes and attack the next segment (except 7, just in case).  The metagame element is that as a player you're aware of the segment/phase number at all.  The moment the brick Holds or throws his first punch the player has a good sense of the bricks speed.  Two or three in and he's got it all figured out.

 

Unless you can't tell your opponent is holding an action.  I guess that's valid but I feel a trained combatant should be able to tell when an opponent is ready and waiting to act vs unprepared.

 

(I guess you could also take Analyse: Reaction time (how else would you describe speed?) and make a roll at the start of a fight to get an ok to great idea of how much 'faster' you are)

 

Alternatively - assuming the other guy wants to fight at all - Full move away on segment 1 and see when he gets to pursue you.  More meta, yes, but no more than getting to know how much damage you are hit for and how much you can take.

[Era Scarecrow]

This has likely been bought up at some point, but I just had a thought in the shower that the speed chart is a lot simpler if you just use those speeds that are factors of 12: 1,2,3,4,6 and 12.

 

 

Someone needs to write an article titled, "How I stopped worrying and learned to love the Speed Chart."

It might be far better to come up with some type of long ruler or the like, where everyone has to have a token per their speed that's easy to identify. The token could be a picture, or could just be a little fortune-cookie sized piece of paper with a name on it. Regardless, when going into combat those pieces would be put on the chart, arranged according to DEX, and of course standard players and SPD that doesn't change those would of course could be taped or fixed in place. Then only temporary characters or villains who don't conform with the established norms would have to be added manually. Takes a little setup, but having a moving token to say which phase you're on and going down the list without asking 'Who's got a SPD3? SPD4? SPD5?' and those tidbits.

 

Although a computer program would also do the job for you far better, and most have tablets or laptops with manuals character sheets and other details on hand, so having something like that wouldn't be hard either. Automating the process to a degree isn't bad.

[Cantriped]

I do something similar to the proposed guideline in my own campaigns. When I'm building characters for such games, I typically use Speeds 2, 3, 4, or 6. When I am running a Standard Superheroic game, I usually prohibit Speeds greater than 6, and discourage Speeds greater than 4 unless the character is a Speedster (or significantly reduces their Movement rates to compensate). This makes using the Superhero Gallery more difficult because most of the entries have a 5 or 6 speed. I also house-rule that Speed 1 Characters go on Segment 12 instead of Segment 7, because I believe that everyone​ should act on Segment 12.