Thoughts on superheroes involved with the military

[Guest Celebrin]

Hey there, folks.

 

Well, my new game has taken an unepected turn (the best kind) and the newly empowered mutants have unwittingly (for the most part) found themselves wrapped up with the military (somewhat voluntarily). It's the second session and I have somewhat concrete plans for the next session, but I'm looking for ideas past that point to draw upon. The story is very open-ended (it's been a while since I've run a completely open-ended game and I'm really enjoying it a lot.

 

One of the characters is military (taking University courses so on inactive duty) and contacted Intelligence when he found out he was mutated into a wolf-man. They arranged to pick him up, and he agreed to do so. While waiting for the pick-up time to arrive, he contacted one of the other characters to let him know what was going on - the other character gathered up the rest of the group and followed along to make sure that nothing went wrong. The Major from Intelligence wanted the other to come along as well (they were picked up by IR sensors as they watched from a distance), and everyone present agreed to come along peacefully (though some definitelyfelt threatened by the military presence).

 

They have been tested and examined and have been couped up (with minimal contact to the outside world) for a couple of weeks and are learning the extent of their powers.

 

That's what's going on at the moment, with an emergency and an actual mission at the end of the next session already reasonably planned out with no direct bearing on future plans.

 

The Major who is heading up the project they have been drawn into is an evil man - perhaps working for a BBEG (though there are no concrete plans for one at the moment, though perhaps Viper or the Nazis would fit that bill...there are Nazi's in my world...Germany didn't come out of WWII so badly, long story). basically, he's a bad guy with his own agenda who wants to use the mutants for his own ends but my brain isn't managing to get past that and onto something concrete (or even vague for that matter)

 

The military itself isn't an antagonist, just the Major and his Kingsmen Project, and I don't want the military itself to be too much of a target for anger and hostilitydown the road. Sure there's going to be a certain level of distrust, but I don't want them thinking that everything the military does is bad.

 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated - vague or specific makes no mind to me - I just need something to spark the ol' imagination a little.

 

Thanks!

Darren

Champions: Sentra City

[Agent X]

Maybe you should provide a paramilitary/espionage agency like Shield with a Nick Fury type to counterbalance the threat of the bad military man. It would give you a safety valve from letting the game get darker than you wanted it to and would reinforce the idea that there are good guys in the military too.

[Battlestaff]

Originally posted by Agent X

Maybe you should provide a paramilitary/espionage agency like Shield with a Nick Fury type to counterbalance the threat of the bad military man. It would give you a safety valve from letting the game get darker than you wanted it to and would reinforce the idea that there are good guys in the military too.

 

You could introduce these guys early on in the campaign, and show them to be unequivacally good guys, so that when the characters do find out how evil the Major is, (a) they will know that not all military are evil, and ( they have someone to turn to for help, advice, etc.

 

As for what the Major could do with the team, you could get several missions where the Major is misleading the team into thinking they are working for the good of the military, when in actuality they are working to advance the Major's agenda.

 

You could go with the old stand-bys. Have the Major use the team to:

(1) Break up a ring of spies. (Actually, they are federal agents looking into the Major's actions.)

(2) Investigate a person who may be disloyal or a traitor. (Actually remove a rival from a position where she can threaten the Major's organization through dirty tricks.)

(3) Protect a delivery of arms to a locak resistance cell in an unfriendly nation. (Actually an arms sale to the unfriendly power/terrorists/evil organization. Do the players know what the proper paperwork for this really looks like?)

(4) Recon an unfriendly country and make contact with a local resistance cell (Actually an arms dealer or someone who will allow the Major to smuggle antiquities out of the country. Possibly dangerous/mystic artifacts with powers. Possibly also a drug dealer.)

(5) Run a training exercise with other military units, with no holds barred. (Actually an attempt to scare other officers into not getting in the Major's way. A good way to introduce the SHIELD-type unit discussed above.)

 

The Major will probably want to prevent contact with other military personnel not part of his plan or sympathetic to his organization. The players will most likely buy this for a time, but will eventually chafe under these restrictions. Then they'll break the rules to get some relaxation, which could lead to all sorts of hell when the Major finds out.

 

The Major may try to forestall this by keeping the team very tired. All that will mean, though, is that when they do get downtime, any restrictions placed on their having fun will chafe all the more. That could lead to a standoff with a nervous Major over what's really going on.

 

Hope this has helped a bit.

[Supreme]

While, I have no problem with the idea of the military employing people with super-human powers, I have never agreed with the idea of the military employing super-heroes. The military would never employ people who are so individualistic and so unpredictable. Super-heroes have a tendency to get involved with personal dramas that blow up on them in the middle of sensitive operations.

"Oh no, that super-weapon I built is being used against us."

"Oh no, my evil twin has resurfaced and is leading the Seventh Infantry into a trap!"

"Oh no, I've been mind controlled into fighting our own troops!"

The army's not having any of that.

[Griffonheart]

I have been planning on running a game where the PCs are superhumans who have only just developed their powers. It turns out that they were engineered by the government to have these powers and put into families that had considerable loyalty to the government. In my case thats the Canadian government, but use whichever one you want.

 

Basically the idea is to pull your stories out of the headlines in the real world press. Around the time I first thought of this idea was 9/11, so I was gonna have the players go and try to catch Bin Laden. Sorry if I am offending anyone by bringing that whole issue up, thats not my intent.

 

If you have a group who have been kept away from the real world for awhile then its pretty easy for the Major to tell them anything he wants and if they trust him they should believe it. Then maybe the way they figure out that he is evil is that someone tells them that they are going after the wrong guy. Like make up a terrorist, who is actually an anti-terrorist, have them go after him and eventually they find out that he was one of the good guys.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Supreme

While, I have no problem with the idea of the military employing people with super-human powers, I have never agreed with the idea of the military employing super-heroes. The military would never employ people who are so individualistic and so unpredictable. Super-heroes have a tendency to get involved with personal dramas that blow up on them in the middle of sensitive operations.

"Oh no, that super-weapon I built is being used against us."

"Oh no, my evil twin has resurfaced and is leading the Seventh Infantry into a trap!"

"Oh no, I've been mind controlled into fighting our own troops!"

The army's not having any of that.

 

I think it's plausible...

 

A) The drama has nothing to do with the superpowers, or anything else that can be detected. So why should they be able to dodge that bullet?

 

Superhumans are like real humans. You can't custom build them (unlss you're, I dunno, Telios?), and have to work with what you can get.

 

I mean, say MegaMan volunteers. The fact that he can wad up a tank division like it was made of styrofoam and ignore 90% of conventional weaponry kinda outweighs the fact that he tends to ask questions... promote to head of the "Megaman Division" and run with it.

 

The sheer utility can outweigh a lot of practical concerns.

 

Now if, once they sign up, 'coincidences' start mounting up... and the MegaMan division might get closed.

 

Plus, bonfide-superheroes should help win more public support.

 

 

You can, of course, continue to disagree.. but I had to try, right?

[Killer Shrike]

I was an Intel Specialist in the Marine Corps until 98, and heres a few quick points:

 

Military Intelligence cant do anything within the boundaries of the United States, or to a civilian who is a US Citizen, legally. Its been that was since the 70s IIRC, and the Intel Oversight Committee made us sit thru briefings on the subject every so often to make sure the point was driven home from the top to the bottom.

 

When I was in we got into a little bit of heat bcs, by special permission certain detachments of my unit (1st Intel Co) were working w/ the DEA to help stop drugs coming across the border from Mexico. Remember the kid that shot at some Marines in Texas a few years ago and got killed?

 

Also, Majors dont head up projects usually. Thats even less likely in the Army than other services -- the Army is rank heavy. A Major is a mere 0-4 -- in some units Majors fetch coffee for a general officer; they might be in charge of a subdivision within a project; like Operations, Admin, Intel, etc. The Army's got more Generals and Bird Colonels chomping for a star than they have billets for them, seems like.

 

The several times I worked around the Army in Korea, I didnt see anyone below Lt Col in any position requiring any kind of decision making. No kidding, a couple of times I worked with different details of around 8 to 10 Army Privates and Spec 4s and their NCOIC was an E-8 and their OIC was a Lt Col. In the Corps it would have been maybe 1 or 2 Privates or PFCs, a couple of Lance Corporals, a Corporal or Sergeant, a Staff or Gunny, and a 1st Lt to do the same job. The Staff or Gunny would be the one really calling the shots, and the Lt would be there to maintain rank structure and go to staff meetings, where they would often end up fetching coffee for a Lt Col or flag officer.

 

All that aside, Intel does not actually conduct direct ops. Operations conducts ops. Larger Intel units have an Intel Ops section which is primarily concerned w/ Surveillance & Recon missions, running missions as tasked by Intel Collections using various collection assets and the like. But these are all small-scale operations, composed of small teams or finite resources. The purpose of Intel is not to conduct mission, it is to produce Intelligence to commanders so that they are well informed to command their other resources. All operational assets an Intel effort has at its disposal are to be used only to collect data. For example, while Intel Ops can task a Recon team to gather information from a certain locality, they cant order them to do a Direct Action (attack of some sort) -- Operations does that.

 

So unless your supers are information gatherers, they would not be working for Intel. They would be working for Ops. There would likely be an Intel officer of some sort with a clerk and an NCO or SNCO depending on what they were doing, to give Intel briefings to Ops on mission plans, liason w/ remote Intel assets to collect data in support of the above, and to collect any useful Intel from the Operators (Recon by fire type data, things seen in the field, from captured prisoners, etc) and feed that up or down the dissemination pipe to make sure that data is available to anyone else who might need it. The Intel officer would brief the operators before a mission and debrief them after to get anything useful they witnessed. Thats about it.

 

About the only Intel sub-entity that I can think of that might be taking direct actions would be Counter-Intel, but even that would be operations intended to impair the enemies Intel efforts, and most of that is done via HUMINT (Human Intelligence) means, which is mostly talking to people, paying snitches/contacts for info, playing smoke & mirror games, doing personality profiles, etc.

 

The CIA and other intel agencies do things differently than the military, but even in the CIA you have operators and analysts in two different groups.

 

One thing many people dont really realize is that there is a difference between Special Forces and Intel. Though the two often work hand in hand, they arent the same thing.

 

So, before you get too far into your meta-plot, you may want to restructure the set up you had in mind for the military. If the military were to have supers, they would almost certainly be in SOCOM (Special Operations Command). And even then they legally couldnt take actions within the United States. The US Military may only operate withing the boundaries of the US by special permission, and its not given lightly. This is to prevent us from becoming a military police state, and is generally a good thing.

[Guest Celebrin]

Thanks for the ideas and advice, folks! It is muchly appreciated.

 

Agent X – I’m planning on using UNTIL in such a way IMC. They do have less of a military presence in my game, mostly being investigators, etc – though they are developing their own paramilitary force that can be used to deal with super-human situations. That’s already in the works as at least one of the PCs has a contact within UNTIL.

 

Battlestaff – Thanks for the adventure ideas, those should help spark something that should help forward the schemes of the current BBEG.

 

Supreme – Sorry for the confusion – I probably used the word heroes interchangeably with mutants. The characters are not super-heroes (at least not yet – depends where the campaign ends up going), they have only developed their powers within the 24 hour period before the last session took place. The Army doesn’t employ superheroes as such in my game (just doesn’t feel right to me either), but mutant soldiers are a different story.

 

Griffonheart – Have you read the new comic, Supreme Power? You should take a look at it, the first 3 or 4 issues deal heavily with one of the characters who was raised in such a way by the government (except that he was an alien that crashed on earth as an infant, but still, same idea).

 

Killer Shrike – Thank you greatly for the information on military organization and Intel stuff – it is greatly appreciated, and will easily help me to get things organized in at least a somewhat proper way. J May not quite be real-world military in the end, but least it’ll be a heck of a lot closer than it was. I’ll just have the Major be a part of the show, which is being organized and run by a Colonel and a General above him who oversees the entire project. I think the General will still be the clean face behind things, with perhaps the colonel trying to operate around the General and supersede his command to take control of the Project and the PCs.

 

Thanks a bunch – now I have stuff to think about and organize…it’s a good thing I have at least another 5-6 weeks before I run my next session what with holidays and such in the way.

 

Darren

[Fireg0lem]

Maybe consider giving the bad guy a "boy scout" type idealistic subordinate, who (like the PCs) has been fooled? Perhaps even see if you can work them in as a love interest for a PC.

[Mayday]

Nice writeup Shrike.

 

The only suggestion I have to add is the 007 model of service to the Govt. His job usually isn't to shoot things but it seems to happen anyway.

[farik]

Originally posted by Supreme

While, I have no problem with the idea of the military employing people with super-human powers, I have never agreed with the idea of the military employing super-heroes. The military would never employ people who are so individualistic and so unpredictable. Super-heroes have a tendency to get involved with personal dramas that blow up on them in the middle of sensitive operations.

 

You should check out Marvels "Ultimates." It's a revison of the Avengers as an elite military force serving as the first line of defense against supervillain level terrorism. It's really well written and while it addresses the issues you site it also presents resolutions to those issues.

[Ghost who Walks]

Couple fo ideas for background.

 

1) Instead of the evil military offiver bossing them around, have it be an evil undersecretary of Defense (Civilian, political appointment). Give him ties to either the intelligence community or a defese contractor. Ploitcal types make much more believable bad guys. They are also easier to fire.

 

2) Another military officer (in another branch of the military) has another group of superpowered people. They do things like assassinate foreign leaders, bug telephones, and prop up corrupt dictators. This other military guy wants to break up the PCs group, and get them all assigned to his unit. For extra fun, some of the Black Op guys on this other team are criminals.

 

3) Stick a couple NPCs on the team, that the government has gotten from various sources. Include at least one unpowered guy who carried a sniper rifle, and goes on all their missions. He always provides "Cover", and doesn;t seem interested in getting to be friends with them.

 

4) An older, experienced military hero type who is brought in as a trainer. This could help in setting the morality of the campaign (if any).

 

5) A couple of NPCs who are normal guys they might support the heroes (guy who operates the radio, the radar, the guy with the demolition kit, etc.)

 

6) Have the government create its own superhero. Have superhero go rogue. Have the team ordered to capture him. The Hulk comic did this for decades, and got away with it.

 

7) When idn doubt have aliens invade. to make it different, have them invade Colombia. Then have the heroes team up with the Colombian mafia, some CIA mercenaries, and the drug cartels to defeat them.

 

One thing needed to make the military genre work, is the players must never know exactly what is going on. There is also that whole "Following Orders" thing, which qualifies as a disadvantage.

[Mutant for Hire]

My main problems with the military employing superheroes has already been covered. At least assuming that the campaign is in the United States, the military is not allowed to operate inside of US borders unless certain special conditions are fufilled, and those are not at all typical. And of course, a lot of the cliches about superheroes would not apply in the military. These supers, unless they were doing PR stuff, would be wearing standard military uniforms. The closest I could see would be a superhero team of Patriot types, with red, white and blue uniforms and a bunch of patriot code names, but they'd be more of a PR gimmick than a real special ops team.

 

In my opinion, the military of a superhero based world is likely to be very different than the military in our world. Admittedly, there are budget issues that would probably make the average PRIMUS agent better equipped and trained on average than the average army grunt (the army has a lot more troops to equip/train than PRIMUS), but I'd be shocked if the average Ranger in the Champions Universe wasn't a match for the average PRIMUS agent, both in terms of weapons and training.

 

Yes, I expect that the army does experiment with powered armor and has a powered armor division. And they are looking into energy weapons and other exotic gear. And they have a small special program for examining the uses of telepaths within military intelligence, though for various reasons I suspect they may find more use in counterintelligence. The idea that the superheroes of a given nation could overwhelm the military is a concept I do admit to having a hard time swallowing. The fact is if that was the case, the military would be working hard to ensure that they shifted the balance of power in their favor, even offering serious recruitment bonuses to metahumans, though for practical reasons they'd prefer a more technology based approach.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

I'm sorry, but I seem to have acquired a new pet peeve...

 

Why should balanced 'fighting' paranormals be screwed against the conventional forces? (because with 350 points, I can build 'Orbital Bombardment Man'... but he wouldn't be fun)

 

A Mentalist owns any army (assuming no PsiTech that he can't override). Just use Mind Scan, Telepathy and Mind Control on the guy calling the shots.

 

Or, if cyberkinetic, the automated systems on a missile silo or something.

 

Spellcasters have the same edge, but more so.

 

Shapeshifters can *also* do that.

 

Invisibility (possibly including Radar)? They shouldn't ever fire a shot.

 

Desolidification? Tunneling? Teleport?

 

All the 'sneaky' superpowers demolish conventional forces.

 

So, why not let the PC who wanted to be directly powerful actually, you know, *be* directly powerful?

 

And let the ones with hyper advanced technology outclass non-hyper advanced technology.

 

I mean, when Perk: General is more effective than 10 x it's cost in STR and rPD/rED (even if bought OIF), something is *wrong*.

 

In a world with superhumans, they should rule the world, or at least be able to. Nations with technological (and therefore duplicable) superiority have always dominated. Why should beings with abilities outside science fail to achieve that? Because the Military is unstoppable?

 

Puh-leaze.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Why should balanced 'fighting' paranormals be screwed against the conventional forces? (because with 350 points, I can build 'Orbital Bombardment Man'... but he wouldn't be fun)

The main pet peeve of most of us is assuming that the military doesn't have a clue about paranormals and won't make use of them. Bear in mind that the government instigated experimental programs dealing with psi in the real world. And there are various research programs for producing the ultimate soldier. Not to mention creating weapons and countermeasures for those weapons.

A Mentalist owns any army (assuming no PsiTech that he can't override). Just use Mind Scan, Telepathy and Mind Control on the guy calling the shots.

Problem is that the general issuing illegal and unsanctioned orders is likely to end up overrided and arrested. Remember there's little difference between a rogue general and a mind-controlled general, and the army isn't going to allow rogue generals to do as they please.

 

And as I mentioned before, the government researched psi for a time and presumably decided it was of no use in the real world. In this world, where telepaths are quite real, the government is going to investigate psi's and psi-tech, working out how to use them as weapons and appropriate countermeasures to protect their own people against foreign psis. The government would take the threat of Soviet mentalists very seriously, and look into protecting senior government people against them.

Or, if cyberkinetic, the automated systems on a missile silo or something.

 

Spellcasters have the same edge, but more so.

 

Shapeshifters can *also* do that.

 

Invisibility (possibly including Radar)? They shouldn't ever fire a shot.

 

Desolidification? Tunneling? Teleport?

 

All the 'sneaky' superpowers demolish conventional forces.

And why do you assume the government wouldn't investigate that, recruit paranormals for their own forces while at the same time worrying about how to stop communist paranormals from doing unto them in that fashion? Because you can be certain the Soviets would be having their own program to do just the same. Why do you assume the government would just throw its hands up and be unable to cope with matters?

So, why not let the PC who wanted to be directly powerful actually, you know, *be* directly powerful?

If the PCs are more powerful than the government, then that's an unstable situation. Sooner or later power rises to the top. It's just one of these little facts of history.

And let the ones with hyper advanced technology outclass non-hyper advanced technology.

The military prides itself on having the most advanced technology around, or tries to. Military research projects push the state of the art in several fields. Assuming that the military doesn't have the most advanced tech around or isn't comparable to the best is a bad idea. The main reason a lot of high tech heroes are so powerful is that they're essentially using milspec weaponry in civilian conflicts.

I mean, when Perk: General is more effective than 10 x it's cost in STR and rPD/rED (even if bought OIF), something is *wrong*.

It's got a lot of limits though. Remember that generals have a lot of Watched and codes of conduct and limits on their power in general. Indirectly it's a powerful perk.

In a world with superhumans, they should rule the world, or at least be able to. Nations with technological (and therefore duplicable) superiority have always dominated. Why should beings with abilities outside science fail to achieve that? Because the Military is unstoppable?

 

Puh-leaze.

Because the military will simply incorporate paranormals and the superadvanced tech that many superheroes use into their arsenal. Most superheroes I think will badly underestimate what the military is capable of because the military isn't allowed to use their forces against civilians (not in this country anyway). Do you really think the military has no powered armor matching what Defender has? Or at least within that point range?

[Guest Celebrin]

I'm not so worried about the characters overshadowing the military or any such thing - they are super-powered individuals in a world where such things are still somewhat rare (though slowly growing in number as the years go by).

 

At the moment I'm looking at transferring them to Special Operations (as mentioned by Killer Shrike above) to be the United States' first mutant fighting force (as it were).

 

The technology of my world is definitely far higher than current day (energy weapons are reasonably common-place in military/para-military forces), though conventional weapons are most common among other groups. IMC, WWII wasn't won so handily (I know - it wasn't an easy victory, just simplfying it for my explanation) and German is still a dominant power in thw world (I wanted Nazi's in the game, and it seemed like a good idea at the time) and the Cold War is still going on - thus higher technology due to a constant escalation in military power between the major nations (US, USSR, Germany, China, Britain), so when it comes to funky technology, there will be an abundance of it when necessary.

 

The game all depends on what the players end up liking or disliking, and the consequences of what they do. They went voluntarily with the Army troops - weren't actually threatened (though they would have been given sufficient time) and their first mission will fall under special permission by the President of the US as it takes place on home soil (with good reason), though I'm curious how things are going to pan out for the game...guess we'll see when we get back as to whether the characters decide whether or not they want to work for the military.

 

At least it's helping me flesh out my campaign world a little. Thanks again for more ideas, advice and suggestions, folks!

 

Darren

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

The main pet peeve of most of us is assuming that the military doesn't have a clue about paranormals and won't make use of them. Bear in mind that the government instigated experimental programs dealing with psi in the real world. And there are various research programs for producing the ultimate soldier. Not to mention creating weapons and countermeasures for those weapons.

 

The assumption *here* is that these measures work, and they can then beat any superhuman. I find this assumption highly questionable; said real world investigations into psi failed (I hope ), after all.

 

If this were so, why are the PC's deciding to be criminals (acting as superheroes) when the normals can handle things equally well? If they aren't, then we're in separate types of games, and what ever it is you're playing is only tangentally related to what I play.

 

In this kind of reality, there shouldn't *be* superheroes, only well intentioned super-criminals. And if you like this kind of sci-fi, well, good for you.

 

But don't tell me that it's 'obvious' that scientific investigation into a phenomona that doesn't even exist in the real world (I hope ) would produce results. The *concept* of superhumans is that they are *more than human*, and are produced by forces beyond the ken of modern (and often comic book) science.

 

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

Problem is that the general issuing illegal and unsanctioned orders is likely to end up overrided and arrested. Remember there's little difference between a rogue general and a mind-controlled general, and the army isn't going to allow rogue generals to do as they please.

 

So he gets sanction. Mind Control, remember?

The difference is significant; the zombie can get anyone to agree with them if necessary. Who *is* going to stop them?

 

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

And as I mentioned before, the government researched psi for a time and presumably decided it was of no use in the real world. In this world, where telepaths are quite real, the government is going to investigate psi's and psi-tech, working out how to use them as weapons and appropriate countermeasures to protect their own people against foreign psis. The government would take the threat of Soviet mentalists very seriously, and look into protecting senior government people against them.

 

They're going to try. Success is another story altogether.

 

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

And why do you assume the government wouldn't investigate that, recruit paranormals for their own forces while at the same time worrying about how to stop communist paranormals from doing unto them in that fashion? Because you can be certain the Soviets would be having their own program to do just the same. Why do you assume the government would just throw its hands up and be unable to cope with matters?

 

If the PCs are more powerful than the government, then that's an unstable situation. Sooner or later power rises to the top. It's just one of these little facts of history.

 

This does hang together. If the government, in your world, has been arbitrarily made capable of demolishing all superpowered forces in the world... well, that's consistent, and balanced.

 

It sure isn't the real world (where even a weak telepath could rule the world after a few years), it sure isn't fun for superheroes (when you take into consideration the fact that you *are criminals*, and should be hunted by this overwhelming force), and it is hardly the only logical option. I'd say it's far from logical.

 

And why this obsession with the Soviets?

 

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

The military prides itself on having the most advanced technology around, or tries to. Military research projects push the state of the art in several fields. Assuming that the military doesn't have the most advanced tech around or isn't comparable to the best is a bad idea. The main reason a lot of high tech heroes are so powerful is that they're essentially using milspec weaponry in civilian conflicts.

 

In the real world, the concentrated efforts of many scientists are needed to assure technological superiority.

 

In any kind of standard supers world, that is no longer true. A transcendental genius can leap centuries in development. Time Travel means that next centuries model can be available today. Cutting edge technology can be stolen (no security is fool proof), and then improved by said transcendental geniuses.

 

Yes, the Military could take advantage of these... in which case you end up with an impossible situation. 'My Technology is from a Century after this...' 'Well, the military uses technology from TWO Centuries furthur forward...' 'Well, I have that, but still progressed a century...'

(universe disappears due to temporal paradox. Either that, or both sides have the most sophisticated military hardware that can be designed in this universe)

 

Of course, in standard superworlds, the military doesn't succeed in these attempts anyway, because these kinds of thing *never* work out well. Betrayals, accidents and attacks by those who have seized power with the advent of superpowers are bloody well going to try to keep it!

 

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

It's got a lot of limits though. Remember that generals have a lot of Watched and codes of conduct and limits on their power in general. Indirectly it's a powerful perk.

 

Because the military will simply incorporate paranormals and the superadvanced tech that many superheroes use into their arsenal. Most superheroes I think will badly underestimate what the military is capable of because the military isn't allowed to use their forces against civilians (not in this country anyway). Do you really think the military has no powered armor matching what Defender has? Or at least within that point range?

 

In the real world? Heck yes. In the CU? Still probably yes. In any world I design? yes.

 

In someone else's world? Well, that depends, doesn't it?

 

Using your logic? Defender should be a hunted man, who has days, if not hours, left of freedom, since his Mighty Power Armour is ineffectual should he try and avoid arrest...

 

 

 

Yes, of course you can insist that the Military be the pre-eminent force in your campaign world. Why would you want to? It's not genre. It's not logical. It's not particularly *fun* either, IMO.

[Ghost who Walks]

I tried to strikes balance between the military and the civilian metahumans. Certainly if metaumans exist, the military is going to have them. Creating a whole army of Silver-Avenger types would not be impossible for the Pentagon budget.

 

So I wanted there to be a military metahumans but I wanted it to fit into a workable background. I also did not want them to dominate the campaign.

 

So I did it like this (rough summary)

 

~The first official government effort to recruit superpowered people was during WWII. Earlier efforts are in myth and legend, and only involved a handful of people. During WWII, a number of metahumans were organized under several agencies (the US army, the OSS, the British, the Free Polish Army, etc.) to fight the German Ubermen. The Germans had the ability to create Superstrong people (around 35 STR) by using the genetic material from an immortal metahman (who was descended from Norse Gods) Since it is hard to coordinate metahumans, the Ubermen were assigned in groups of 5-10 to each German division, partly for morale purposes, partly to push tanks out of the mud.

 

Because of the Ubermen, the US began their program, which involved giving people the power to project energy. While called a process that used advanced science, it actually called upon magical energy in a secret ritual that was performed while the participants were unconcious. The presiding doctor was an immortal Egyptian goddess. This process was the predessessor of Project Sunburst. Around 3,000 people went through this process, and were organized into one large unit, called the X-Brigade.

 

During the War, the Germans continued to keep their Ubermen under local command, while the Americans sent their large force to different theatres and fronts on an almost monthly basis, so the enemy could not predict where they were. As a result of this almost continuous combat, and because the magical ritual fed upon the life forces of the members, 90% of the participants were dead within 5 years. Within 25 years, their numbers had dwindled to 1%. The survivors are among the biggest critics AGAINST the government creation of metahumans.

 

After the war, national government attempted to create new supermen, with mixed results. Mostly, they had little idea with what they were doing, because the immortals had withdrawn their support. Some projects had some success, and in addition to natural metahumans, a growing population of the superpowered appeared.

 

The Korean war involved the last survivors of the X-Brigade versus the communist metahumans, along with other UN volunteer metahumans. The lesson of this conflict was that the metahumans blocked each other, and were little help to conventional forces. Government funding shifted towards building atomic bombs.

 

Vietnam brought the country into conflict again, and many metahumans were drafted or volunteered. While the generals could have organized them into one large force and invaded the North, political realities forced them into small units, under a dozen different commands. Every branch of the military had its own metahumans in Vietnam, several had multiple teams. The genetically malformed (mutants) were drafted by Johnson and organized into a special unit called "the Unique Battalion". Sent into the areas of highest combat, and consisting of the ugliest dogfaces ever to wear a uniform, the survivors linger in the various VA hospitals throughout America.

 

After the war, the metahumsn donned capes against and began fighting criminals, trying to clean up their neighborhoods. Meanwhile, the government continued its various projects to create superpeople, with the Justice Department (PRIMUS) having the greatest success. Claims by X-Brigade survivors that the PRIMUS process was based upon the lost German Ubermen process have never been proven.

 

Frustrated by their inability to create metahumans, the Intelligence agencies recruited metahumans from the civilian population, either from colleges and universities or from prisons. Many of these secret teams were kept hidden from politicians, with the CIA and the DEA having the largest.

 

The 1980's brought in Reagan, who was concerned about the Soviet threat. All the military metahumans, and the known intelligence agency metahumans were brought together into one place, a mountain fortress called "The Mount" in Oklahoma. There, they trained and prepared for a nuclear war that never happened. Called the Strike Team, they were the most powerful military metahuman force ever assembled. All military metahumans were required to be a part of it. They were involved in Grenada, Libya, Panama, and Iraq. It never actually fought any commies, unless Grenada counted. All members were required to have a military specialty in addition to their superpower. A light division of regular military personnel was assigned around them, to provide support.

 

The Cold War, ended and a new President came into office. the military budget was cut drasticly, and many member of the Strike Team didn't reenlist, and moved to civilian jobs (some of which included putting on capes). To fill out its ranks, Senate passed a special ordinance where the military could once again take metahumans from prison and assign them to the military. This met with more resentment from the military metahumans, and more of them quit in disgust.

 

(about this time the campaign started)

 

The 90's saw the Strike Team being underused, as the regular military sought to keep its funding. While kept around for their symbolic power, they were more of a mighty weapon that was kept in reserve, that the politicians feared to use. They did claim that they prevented Dr. Destroyer from appearing in the United states, and were very active in disaster relief.

 

Today, they exist as the ultimate expression of American power. Every nation has intelligence agents stationed in Oklahoma...to watch for when the black helicoptors take flight. For when they do, the world will tremble under their Government-Issue boots.

 

Note: Obviously, my campaign history is more detailed than this. Someday I hope to fully write it up. I never went much for armored battlesuit stuff, it was always difficult for me to envision a power source that small that wasn't being used elsewhere. Becasue of what they can do, anyone with telepathic powers is discriminated against, to the extent that the government keeps a secret "mental asylum" to confine them in.

[Storn]

Yes, of course you can insist that the Military be the pre-eminent force in your campaign world. Why would you want to? It's not genre. It's not logical. It's not particularly *fun* either, IMO.

 

Hey ww, this isn't my game... but I'm not to tell anyone that their superhero/villain campaign is illogical... that is the pot calling the kettle black. Supers are illogical.

 

As for not genre... what is Red Star? Or Authority? Or Sleeper? Or the subplots of many an Image title with all the Black Ops stuff goin' on. Sure, I grant you, its at the edge and is a far minority of comic books... but to say that it isn't genre? Don't buy that. If stories are about people with powers beyond that of normal folk, powers that transcend physics, that are more than extraopolated mental abilities... then it is superhero genre. From the masked men of yesteryear to the goofyness of camp to mutant angst to the grim, gritty avengers to the scariness of the Authority.... its all genre.

 

That is simply the campiagn premise. Like it or not, its the premise.

 

I, for one, like imagination... and this campaign brief is a heck more imaginative than many "typicial" superhero campaigns.... just by the meer decision to keep Nazis around. That changes everything. Most campaigns try to "reflect" or emulate the Super introduced in the 30s and then a pastiche of actual comic books' evolution from there.

 

Is it grim? yup. Is it supers, yes... defintiely moving into sci-fi... but what is wrong with that?

 

Btw, in the game I've been in, the military could whip any paranormal it wanted to, if it absolutely needed to, if it could bring all of its force to bear. Now, there are some really powerful supers in RDU, but there are a hell of a lot more normal folk. We've talked about it. Supers simply can beat a batallion, but could never "hold ground" beyond a city. Mind control wears off. Nukes are scary to even paranormals (except Sunburst, but he had to leave the planet for fear of irradating others). Heck, 30mm uranium depleted rounds are nothing to laugh at, even for the toughest brick.

 

So our superworld operates on the assumption that if a war between normal and paranormal broke out... normals win. Just not enough paranormals to swing it, even if they totally united.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Storn

Hey ww, this isn't my game... but I'm not to tell anyone that their superhero/villain campaign is illogical... that is the pot calling the kettle black. Supers are illogical.

 

True. Supers *are* illogical.

 

Which is why 'this is realistic' holds no water.

 

'This is realistic' seemed pretty central to his idea that supers should lose to the military.

 

Originally posted by Storn

As for not genre... what is Red Star? Or Authority? Or Sleeper? Or the subplots of many an Image title with all the Black Ops stuff goin' on. Sure, I grant you, its at the edge and is a far minority of comic books... but to say that it isn't genre? Don't buy that. If stories are about people with powers beyond that of normal folk, powers that transcend physics, that are more than extraopolated mental abilities... then it is superhero genre. From the masked men of yesteryear to the goofyness of camp to mutant angst to the grim, gritty avengers to the scariness of the Authority.... its all genre.

 

That is simply the campiagn premise. Like it or not, its the premise.

 

Or it's fantasy. Or sci-fi. Especially sci-fi. There may well be comics that I haven't encountered that centre around 'the military is so great, long live the army'... but I have to ask. If the normals with tech are the important people, the people who are relevant, is it really *about* the supers?

 

I mean, super genre? The key thing is that it's about the guys (girls) with powers.

 

I mean, in that kind of game... I'd try and submit The President as my character to play. Shouldn't be too hard; it's not like I'd need to buy superpowers.

 

It would be an interesting type of powergaming.

 

Originally posted by Storn

I, for one, like imagination... and this campaign brief is a heck more imaginative than many "typicial" superhero campaigns.... just by the meer decision to keep Nazis around. That changes everything. Most campaigns try to "reflect" or emulate the Super introduced in the 30s and then a pastiche of actual comic books' evolution from there.

 

Is it grim? yup. Is it supers, yes... defintiely moving into sci-fi... but what is wrong with that?

 

It is grim, yes. It is moving into sci-fi (IMO), as it seems to make the impact of the tech/magic (when you have scientists working with it, it's not really magic) the focus.

 

It also looks like a good setting for a game with people with unusual capabilities. I'd call it something like super-powered heroics though.

 

Originally posted by Storn

Btw, in the game I've been in, the military could whip any paranormal it wanted to, if it absolutely needed to, if it could bring all of its force to bear. Now, there are some really powerful supers in RDU, but there are a hell of a lot more normal folk. We've talked about it. Supers simply can beat a batallion, but could never "hold ground" beyond a city. Mind control wears off. Nukes are scary to even paranormals (except Sunburst, but he had to leave the planet for fear of irradating others). Heck, 30mm uranium depleted rounds are nothing to laugh at, even for the toughest brick.

 

So our superworld operates on the assumption that if a war between normal and paranormal broke out... normals win. Just not enough paranormals to swing it, even if they totally united.

 

The Military being able to beat any paranormal, with it's concentrated force? Fair. Nukes being able to take down (almost) anyone? Fair.

 

Heck, you need to be high end to take down a tank? Reasonable.

Not very cinematic, but reasonable.

 

It might even be fun to play in that game. I don't know for sure; I haven't tried to.

 

Normals vs Paranormals, Normals win? Then why hasn't that war been fought?

 

And shouldn't someone who's power happens to be 'Super Charisma' have taken over the world by now?

[Storn]

It also looks like a good setting for a game with people with unusual capabilities. I'd call it something like super-powered heroics though.

 

Splittin' hairs dude/ette. That's still Supers.

 

Brave New World has a situation very similar to that. Still drawing upon comic book convetions of folks with powers. So, still superheroes to me.

 

Necessary Evil, coming out from PEG, is only about the Villains left on Earth after the good super heroes die fighting the Alien Invasion. That's their premise. You play a villian. Its still superheroes to me.

 

Superspies with abiltiy to shrug of a tankshell or phase through a wall or teleport and yet have the emotional wrenching of Sandbaggers and/or MI-5... is still Superheroes to me. And if anyone asks; yeah, I think Feng Shui is about Dark Champion level superheroes with a scoop of HK cinema.

 

But I think we are talking definitions here. And there is a lot of room for misinterpertation in such a discussion. It is just my feeling is there is a lot more under the super sky than Horatio has dreamt of.

 

I misinterperted some things from your first post though, I apologize.

[Vondy]

I ran a thirteen year campaign centered on a department of defense project dedicated to providing the nation's defense and intelligence communities with a paranormal operations team. In fact, they had two teams - one with costumes that was in the public eye fairly regularly, and one that did black ops. It was a very cool game.

[freakboy6117]

my current favorite comic is storm watch team Achilles an absolutely brilliant piece of work revolving around the UN superhuman defense force almost the entire team are normal admittedly the very best from the un members (mostly nato) special forces and a few low powered super humans. They defeat their opponents mostly through superior tactics and skill oh and weakness based weaponry thus the name of the team.

 

The way I see it there are a number of government super human teams.

 

Overt these are the guys who wear the gaudy costumes fight the alien invasion and raise the flag when it’s all over think the Ultimates.

 

Military overt these are the day to day field based supers they tend to be low powered or limited powers with high destructive logistic or intelligence utility.

 

Military covert, basically those supers with powers that would make them useful to Special Forces. A sniper with n ray vision someone able to generate explosive charges from thin air

 

Covert this is you super spy territory super powered espionage assassination etc think CIA distance viewing experiments project MK ultra area 51

 

Then you have the civilian branches

 

Superhuman enforcement basically swat for supers just like teaming Achilles

 

Superhuman defense i.e. secret service guards assigned to protect key personnel from attacks by supers the guards at super human prisons

 

Superhuman investigation.

 

Investigating super human crime or using superpowers to investigate normal crime think the X files or primus or an FBI psychic.

[ChuckB]

Originally posted by Supreme

While, I have no problem with the idea of the military employing people with super-human powers, I have never agreed with the idea of the military employing super-heroes. The military would never employ people who are so individualistic and so unpredictable. Super-heroes have a tendency to get involved with personal dramas that blow up on them in the middle of sensitive operations.

"Oh no, that super-weapon I built is being used against us."

"Oh no, my evil twin has resurfaced and is leading the Seventh Infantry into a trap!"

"Oh no, I've been mind controlled into fighting our own troops!"

The army's not having any of that.

 

I think it'd be just the opposite. People with super-abilities that have any potential strategic use would find themselves "drafted" into the military or a govt. agency.

 

Depending on how useful the super-being might be , the military would probably cut him or her a lot of slack with certain protocols.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Storn

Splittin' hairs dude/ette. That's still Supers.

 

Brave New World has a situation very similar to that. Still drawing upon comic book convetions of folks with powers. So, still superheroes to me.

 

Necessary Evil, coming out from PEG, is only about the Villains left on Earth after the good super heroes die fighting the Alien Invasion. That's their premise. You play a villian. Its still superheroes to me.

 

Superspies with abiltiy to shrug of a tankshell or phase through a wall or teleport and yet have the emotional wrenching of Sandbaggers and/or MI-5... is still Superheroes to me. And if anyone asks; yeah, I think Feng Shui is about Dark Champion level superheroes with a scoop of HK cinema.

 

But I think we are talking definitions here. And there is a lot of room for misinterpertation in such a discussion. It is just my feeling is there is a lot more under the super sky than Horatio has dreamt of.

 

I misinterperted some things from your first post though, I apologize.

 

Misinterpretations are unforgiveable.

 

That's because there is nothing wrong with them.

 

The concept of 'people with unusual powers' is that those powers give power. Power to make a differance, perhaps.

 

I built a fantasy world with magic, mysterious powers, and some supertechnology, psionics and aliens for good measure. The PC's were built on superheroic points/limits... but they were fantasy genre, through and through.

 

It's the kind of story, really. Sci-Fi with superpowers? Can-do.

Action Movie with superpowers? Can do.

Horror with superpowers? Possibly doable, maybe not.

Fantasy with superpowers? See previous.

Romance Novel with supowerpowes? must...rip...out...eyes...

Porn Hero with superpowers... er, never mind.

 

Sci-Fi focuses on the society.

Fantasy, I can't really define... at least not offhand.

Action Movies focuses on one bad guy and a lot of violence.

 

Supers is about the people. Supers asks the question 'what would life be like for people with superpowers (and sometimes you tack on 'and mental disorders'), not 'what would things be like if there were people with superpowers'.

 

Just some more semi-thoughts.