Increased Maximum Effect gone

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

"Characters should not apply Cumulative to Adjustment Powers that increase a Power or Characteristic, since they have their own rules for how many Character Points they can add to a particular Characteristic or Power...."

 

Aid used to have a useful device which allowed the power to have a higher maximum effect than the purchased dice, but that could only be reached by repeated use of the Aid.  This allowed for low-start, high potential abilities with a lower active cost (since, after all, you might never even get to that point).

 

I understand in one sense why this was taken away, since any out-of-combat long term Aid ability effectively will always be maxed by the time anything happens.  Aid Lass can power up everyone in the group with Bonus OCV that fades 5 points per 6 hours on the flight to the battle in the Quanjet.  That effectively negates any potential drawbacks of the Aid.

 

But here's the thing: that advantage to make the Aid fade slower also goes onto the bonus extra points.  So you are actually paying for the utility of those points being offset by the slow fade of the Aid.  That +2 advantage Aid Lass bought on her OCV Aid goes on the +15 maximum effect points, too.

 

Buying xd6 of Aid "Only to increase maximum effect" really has a silly feel to it, one of those "I couldn't come up with a better way to do this" kludge solutions.

[eepjr24]

I mean, if you are the GM, just reinstate the old way of +2 to max for 1 CP. Or set it to some other number that seems equitably priced, like +3 for 2 CP.

 

If you aren't, then either talk to the GM about it or buy the dice limited as you suggested. It may not be ideal from a meta perspective, but you don't have to look at it after you write it up. 😃

 

Personally, I don't care for Aid bought in this manner in most genre but I get the appeal. I just have to reminder the players what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so don't be surprised when the enemy does this as well.

 

- E

[unclevlad]

Increased Maximum still exists on Absorption...but it's not an Adder, it's an advantage.

 

If it was implemented that way on Aid, then I can build:

 

Aid 1d6 (6 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX simultaneously (+1)

--x8 Increased Maximum (+3/4) 

--0 END (+1/2)

--Constant (+1/2)

 

I don't need to change the fade rate.  With a 4 SPD...very low...I'm adding 4d6, or 14, points every turn, and losing 5.  So it's 9 points every turn for as long as I'm conscious.

 

So it'll take a minute to reach full effect, but in the end, it's 48 active points max.  Fine, call it 40 points just to avoid the juggling as points get added or lost.  So +20 Dex and +8 OCV and DCV.  For 22 points.  

 

Somehow, you'd have to make increased Max an Adder or the math will always play out like this.  If it is an adder, then whether it's practical or not depends on the cost of the adder.  It MAY still be.  If it's +5 points for each x2...then...

 

Aid 1d6+1 (8 points), x4 Increased Max (+10 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX;  0 END;  Constant (total +2)

 

So it's 54 points to give...let's call it 20 points full-time just to make life easier (1d6 would be 24 max dropping to 19...ugh...) for +10 Dex and +4 OCV and DCV.  

 

The essential difference is the ability to make the Aid constant.  That eliminates the need to buy more than 1d6;  I went with d6+1 just because of how the totals and breakpoints work out.  With Constant, the Increased Maximum becomes a CHEAP!! way to increase the power, as I get to apply points every phase.  Thus, I don't need to add a lot of them, and I (mostly) ignore the fade rate.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If you aren't, then either talk to the GM about it or buy the dice limited as you suggested.

 

I'm fine with that, but I wanted to discuss the whys and wherefores to help coming up with a good answer to it.  I mean, there had to be good, compelling reasons for the change.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Increased Maximum still exists on Absorption...but it's not an Adder, it's an advantage.

 

If it was implemented that way on Aid, then I can build:

 

Aid 1d6 (6 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX simultaneously (+1)

--x8 Increased Maximum (+3/4) 

--0 END (+1/2)

--Constant (+1/2)

 

I don't need to change the fade rate.  With a 4 SPD...very low...I'm adding 4d6, or 14, points every turn, and losing 5.  So it's 9 points every turn for as long as I'm conscious.

 

So it'll take a minute to reach full effect, but in the end, it's 48 active points max.  Fine, call it 40 points just to avoid the juggling as points get added or lost.  So +20 Dex and +8 OCV and DCV.  For 22 points.  

 

Somehow, you'd have to make increased Max an Adder or the math will always play out like this.  If it is an adder, then whether it's practical or not depends on the cost of the adder.  It MAY still be.  If it's +5 points for each x2...then...

 

Aid 1d6+1 (8 points), x4 Increased Max (+10 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX;  0 END;  Constant (total +2)

 

So it's 54 points to give...let's call it 20 points full-time just to make life easier (1d6 would be 24 max dropping to 19...ugh...) for +10 Dex and +4 OCV and DCV.  

 

The essential difference is the ability to make the Aid constant.  That eliminates the need to buy more than 1d6;  I went with d6+1 just because of how the totals and breakpoints work out.  With Constant, the Increased Maximum becomes a CHEAP!! way to increase the power, as I get to apply points every phase.  Thus, I don't need to add a lot of them, and I (mostly) ignore the fade rate.

 

 

 

While I agree with your excellent  choice of abusive example builds, I have two comments.

 

First, the GM in me has to point out that your math is off. The Characteristics you chose for your example are all classified as Defensive Powers and as such only get half effect from Adjustment Powers.

 

Secondly, you didn't go far enough with your shenanigans so the true extent of the abusability isn't as blinding obvious as it could be.

- If you make it self only you get a discount.

- Why not boost your entire team on the flight over? UBO simultaneously doesn't add much more due to the wonders of Advantage stacking.

- For a few more Active Points, we can replace Constant with Damage over Time and reduce the fade rate. That way you can take it as soon as you get out of bed and be charged up all day by the time you finish you shower and breakfast. And you can distribute the boost to the rest of the team st your morning meeting.

- Finally, since Sixth changed this particular rule, you can put this in a framework, use it until it maxes out and then switch to another slot without the Aid dropping. (Just this enables many of these shenanigans without the need for Increased Maximum Effect.)

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm fine with that, but I wanted to discuss the whys and wherefores to help coming up with a good answer to it.  I mean, there had to be good, compelling reasons for the change.

 

Nothing I wrote in response to @unclevlad means that you can't go ahead and expand Increased Maximum Effect to Aid. It does make sense from a rules completion sense but just realize that it creates a Stop Sign power that really needs close GM scrutiny.

[eepjr24]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Increased Maximum still exists on Absorption...but it's not an Adder, it's an advantage.

 

If it was implemented that way on Aid, then I can build:

 

Aid 1d6 (6 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX simultaneously (+1)

--x8 Increased Maximum (+3/4) 

--0 END (+1/2)

--Constant (+1/2)

 

I don't need to change the fade rate.  With a 4 SPD...very low...I'm adding 4d6, or 14, points every turn, and losing 5.  So it's 9 points every turn for as long as I'm conscious.

 

So it'll take a minute to reach full effect, but in the end, it's 48 active points max.  Fine, call it 40 points just to avoid the juggling as points get added or lost.  So +20 Dex and +8 OCV and DCV.  For 22 points.  

 

Somehow, you'd have to make increased Max an Adder or the math will always play out like this.  If it is an adder, then whether it's practical or not depends on the cost of the adder.  It MAY still be.  If it's +5 points for each x2...then...

 

Aid 1d6+1 (8 points), x4 Increased Max (+10 points)

--to OCV, DCV, and DEX;  0 END;  Constant (total +2)

 

So it's 54 points to give...let's call it 20 points full-time just to make life easier (1d6 would be 24 max dropping to 19...ugh...) for +10 Dex and +4 OCV and DCV.  

 

The essential difference is the ability to make the Aid constant.  That eliminates the need to buy more than 1d6;  I went with d6+1 just because of how the totals and breakpoints work out.  With Constant, the Increased Maximum becomes a CHEAP!! way to increase the power, as I get to apply points every phase.  Thus, I don't need to add a lot of them, and I (mostly) ignore the fade rate.

 

 

And thus we demonstrate why I don't miss the Increased Maximum Effect. =P

 

In example 2 if you went with my tentatively suggested modification of +3 to max for 2 CP you would pay 18 points get to the max of 4d6+4 (x4 Increased Max). That would put the Active cost at 72 AP which seems much more reasonable to me for something that raises DEX by 10, OCV by 4 and DCV by 2 for no END.

 

54 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

While I agree with your excellent  choice of abusive example builds, I have two comments.

 

First, the GM in me has to point out that your math is off. The Characteristics you chose for your example are all classified as Defensive Powers and as such only get half effect from Adjustment Powers.

Of those listed only DCV counts as a defensive value for adjustment purposes.

 

- E

Edited July 9, 2021 by eepjr24
Merged reply

[Christopher R Taylor]

But is the possibility someone might come up with Uber Game Breaking Build enough of a reason to not have that build possible for anything?  Transform is still in the game.  Skill levels with modifiers is still in the game.  All those stop signs are there for a reason; "this can be abused, so be careful."

[eepjr24]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But is the possibility someone might come up with Uber Game Breaking Build enough of a reason to not have that build possible for anything?  Transform is still in the game.  Skill levels with modifiers is still in the game.  All those stop signs are there for a reason; "this can be abused, so be careful."

I don't think anyone is arguing you should not be able to accomplish it, that I have seen. Even in the current system with no modifications you can buy extra dice limited to just raising the maximum roll.

 

- E

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

While I agree with your excellent  choice of abusive example builds, I have two comments.

 

First, the GM in me has to point out that your math is off. The Characteristics you chose for your example are all classified as Defensive Powers and as such only get half effect from Adjustment Powers.

 

Secondly, you didn't go far enough with your shenanigans so the true extent of the abusability isn't as blinding obvious as it could be.

- If you make it self only you get a discount.

- Why not boost your entire team on the flight over? UBO simultaneously doesn't add much more due to the wonders of Advantage stacking.

- For a few more Active Points, we can replace Constant with Damage over Time and reduce the fade rate. That way you can take it as soon as you get out of bed and be charged up all day by the time you finish you shower and breakfast. And you can distribute the boost to the rest of the team st your morning meeting.

- Finally, since Sixth changed this particular rule, you can put this in a framework, use it until it maxes out and then switch to another slot without the Aid dropping. (Just this enables many of these shenanigans without the need for Increased Maximum Effect.)

 

 

Nothing I wrote in response to @unclevlad means that you can't go ahead and expand Increased Maximum Effect to Aid. It does make sense from a rules completion sense but just realize that it creates a Stop Sign power that really needs close GM scrutiny.

 

Ahhh...no.  Only DCV, you're right there.  DEX and OCV are not on that list.  So it's +10 DEX, +4 OCV, and +2 DCV.

 

I skipped Damage over Time intentionally because I *loathe* it beyond words.  0 END, Constant is incredibly simple.

 

This doesn't need UBO that much.  Aid isn't Self, it's No Range.  The contact doesn't have to be maintained, so I just touch each ally in turn.  One ally per phase.  On a normal team of 4-6, the time requirement isn't an issue too often.  Yeah, there might be a place to make it UBO, but this is again MUCH simpler, and largely plays to the fact that this can be done FAR in advance, as per your Damage over Time construct.  And can you really get just a +1 advantage, using Damage over Time and Reduced Fade Rate, to have the power cover, say, a 12 hour window?  I kinda doubt it.

 

2 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But is the possibility someone might come up with Uber Game Breaking Build enough of a reason to not have that build possible for anything?  Transform is still in the game.  Skill levels with modifiers is still in the game.  All those stop signs are there for a reason; "this can be abused, so be careful."

 

Thing is, to me, there's a difference between being abusable in a complex construction, and being abusable in an insanely simple one like mine.  In my construction, so long as the points you gain per turn is > 5, then you don't necessarily require any more.  The cost for these dice is linear.  BUT, the impact of Increased Maximum is actually logarithmic with price...when Constant or Damage over Time is going to be applied.  

 

1d6 --> max effect 6, 6 points 

1d6, 1 level of Inc Max --> max effect 12, 11 points (I presume)

2d6 --> max effect 12, 12 points 

1d6, 2 levels of Inc Max --> max effect 24, 16 points

without Inc Max you need 4d6 to allow for 24 points of max effect

 

Also, note that this is assuming Increased Maximum is an Adder;  it's NOT, for Absorption.  It's an advantage, and that makes it UBER cheap.  Now the UBO is somewhat more attractive just because it's hardly gonna cost anything.

 

Transform's in the game but, we see the problem here so often.  People ignore the Stop sign and say, oh, build it as Transform!!!  When it doesn't make sense.  

4 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

I don't think anyone is arguing you should not be able to accomplish it, that I have seen. Even in the current system with no modifications you can buy extra dice limited to just raising the maximum roll.

 

- E

 

But when it's applied to a Constant, 0 END, the limitation "only to increase maximum roll" is IMO clearly not worth anything. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think anyone is arguing you should not be able to accomplish it, that I have seen. Even in the current system with no modifications you can buy extra dice limited to just raising the maximum roll.

 

I agree.  But my question isn't whether or not someone should be able to do it, but "is this construct so broken or abusable it should be deleted?"  I mean the rules were rewritten so you cannot make recursive absorbs and Aids (they cannot feed back into their maximum effect as part of the power), in order to stop some potentially broken builds.  That made sense because it could get ridiculously out of control.  Is this one of those cases?  I'm not really seeing it but the people who worked on and built 6th clearly did.

[unclevlad]

There's an old rule in D&D:  no spell can give you more in benefits than it costs.  So, a 7th level spell can't give you an 8th level spell slot.  This is an excellent guideline in any system.  Here, I think the answer's clearly Yes.  You're adding more points onto the character sheet than you're spending.  

 

I *am* saying, I wouldn't allow extra dice only to raise the maximum, when that limitation means nothing.  If the power needs to be applied multiple times with multiple actions involved, I might allow it...but probably not, unless it really becomes a limitation.  If you can use the power for a turn then have it last for 6 hours, it's NOT a limitation at all.  I just see too many cases where "oh, see, obviously this power is less flexible, so it deserves a limitation" when in fact, other modifiers kill it.

 

Let's go with my Aid...1d6, applies to 3 stats, 0 END, Constant.  18 points.  Now, +3d6, same advantages, Limited Power (only to raise maximum).  Base cost is 54 for that;  the question becomes what the limitation is worth.  Well...1d6 per phase at SPD 5, would be 17 per turn.  So 2 turns, I'm at max.  At 4d6, I need probably 2 phases, sometimes 3.  Given that this power is constant, and no END, and generally considered invisible...does anyone here treat Aid as being readily apparent?...that time difference does not feel game-significant.  It won't be an issue often enough.

 

Even if you want to give extra dice only to raise the max a, let's say -1/2...the difference is that this still means the higher maximum grows linearly with the amount you increase it.  When you make it an adder, the increased max doubling each time...it's exponential.  So that +5 points (before advantages) quickly gives MUCH more than 5 points of effect.  It's often true that the doubling rule is fine...but there are some cases where it's seriously dangerous (like Summon).

 

And I see no *valid* reason for allowing it.  I see nothing but point shaving, with no concern for balance.  It may also be a lack of vision, or my own personal blinders WRT powers building, but I don't see why you'd add Increased Maximum Effect to Aid, that is NOT going to be in an abusive construct of one form or another.  

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 I don't see why you'd add Increased Maximum Effect to Aid, that is NOT going to be in an abusive construct of one form or another.  

 

And that is probably what it came down to, the decision was that it was almost always abusive without sufficient restraints.  Its like in the first Elder Scrolls game; you could build your own spells.  Except I found an exploit without even trying: spells that started out very small but built up rapidly over time by large amounts were remarkably cheap and powerful.

 

Yet the "just take more dice you don't get to have unless you use Aid over and over again" idea not only feels daffy but does not really represent the concept very well.  I think we need some other mechanic that does what is desired without feeling so weak and silly (to me at least)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Something like this, for instance:

 

Increased Maximum Effect:  This advantage adds a number of dice of Aid equal to the dice it is purchased on, only to increase the maximum amount of total effect.  For example, if a character purchases 4d6 of Aid, Increased Maximum Effect adds additional Aid equal to the most the dice could total (24 in this case).

 

IME costs +¾ advantage, if the Aid has no Delayed Return Rate advantage purchased on it.

If the Aid has Delayed Return Rate, then the advantage for Increased Maximum Effect is equal to the total Delayed Return Rate advantage.

 

Quote

EXAMPLE: Aid Lass buys Aid 3d6 (Stun).  She wants to be able to have a higher total Aid possible than the 18 points allowed by 3d6 so she buys Increased Maximum Effect.  This is a +¾ advantage, and gives Aid Lass an additional 18 points of maximum effect that her 3d6 can Aid to a character.  Aid Lass also buys 3d6 Aid (Recovery).  She wants this Aid to last longer, so she buys Delayed Return Rate so it fades 5 points per hour (a +1¾ advantage).  Purchasing Increased Maximum effect now costs +1¾ advantage as well

 

Now, the base level of advantage for DRR is +1, for fades 5 points per minute so that seems like a bit of a rip off, but my late night "what if we did this" idea behind it was that it should cost more to increase your max if your Aid has a longer fade rate for reasons shown above. This mechanic makes the cost for increasing the max effect of an Aid continue going up in price based on the fade rate delay.

 

I dunno, just an idea I had last night just as I was about to go to sleep.

 

*EDIT: you could buy a limitation that reduces the max added effect as well, so it doesn't necessarily give the full amount of base dice, like a -¼ for half as much and -½ for a quarter as much or lower.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Increased Maximum Effect:  This advantage adds a number of dice of Aid equal to the dice it is purchased on, only to increase the maximum amount of total effect.  For example, if a character purchases 4d6 of Aid, Increased Maximum Effect adds additional Aid equal to the most the dice could total (24 in this case).

 

IME costs +¾ advantage, if the Aid has no Delayed Return Rate advantage purchased on it.

If the Aid has Delayed Return Rate, then the advantage for Increased Maximum Effect is equal to the total Delayed Return Rate advantage.

 

 

Now, the base level of advantage for DRR is +1, for fades 5 points per minute so that seems like a bit of a rip off, but my late night "what if we did this" idea behind it was that it should cost more to increase your max if your Aid has a longer fade rate for reasons shown above. This mechanic makes the cost for increasing the max effect of an Aid continue going up in price based on the fade rate delay.

 

I dunno, just an idea I had last night just as I was about to go to sleep.

 

*EDIT: you could buy a limitation that reduces the max added effect as well, so it doesn't necessarily give the full amount of base dice, like a -¼ for half as much and -½ for a quarter as much or lower.

 

You'd want to change the name to avoid confusion with IME for Absorption.  Not a good idea to have 2 advantages called the same thing but that work VERY differently.

 

I kinda like the notion that it's a flat x2 effect and, as written can't be bought multiple times.  That's not a bad idea;  one of the big problems is if you're allowed to apply it multiple times.  It kills the exploit of buying the bare-minimum base.

 

You can't use Delayed Return Rate as an adjustment factor, because it's not the only thing that matters.  What other constructs cause problems?  Constant, with either 0 END or Costs END only to activate.  How about some form of continuing charges?  How about Damage Over Time?  Is that all of them???  

 

Plus, I really dislike conditional costing.  Yeah, with Autofire it's necessary;  that just shows the nastiness of Autofire.  But it should be avoided.

 

I'm not sure it's necessary, either.  I'll offer:

Enhanced Maximum

EM 1: +1/2 cost,  the maximum amount which can be added is 50% higher 

EM 2: +1 cost,  the maximum amount is 100% higher

 

There's little point, I suspect, in +25%, and I think going more than double is perhaps the root problem.  First, let's look at the final max effect (base, +50%, +100%)

 

1d6:  6, 9, 12

1d6+1:  7, 11, 14

1 1/2d6:  9, 14, 18

2d6:  12, 18, 24

2d6+1:  13, 20, 26

2 1/2d6:  15, 23, 30

3d6:  18, 27, 36

 

For powers, 3d6 with +100% feels like the max that I'd ever allow;  that's a huge boost.  For characteristics, it's a lot harder to say.  At even 1 1/2 d6, the fade rate can be fundamentally ignored, if desired;  the average added per phase is 5, so the fade only applies for 1 phase...and that's due strictly to the artificial timing issues.  (Yes, I'm assuming Constant or a similar construct, but that's implicit.  The Aid will have to be applied multiple times anyway.)  

 

So it'd come down to your breakpoints, and in some cases like a STR boost, whether you put an advantage on.  (Think Reduced END.)  My initial evaluation is, I'd consider 2d6 with +100% or 2d6+1 with +50% much of the time.  That's a LOT of boost...even if it's to defensive abilities.

 

So, let's see

2d6 is base 12

Constant, 0 END (+1)

to 3 stats (+1)

+100% (+1)

 

That's 48 points.  Take your pick of 3 from:

12 DEX

24 STR (or 19 with Reduced END)

2 SPD

4 OCV 

2 DCV

12 PD or ED (7 if it's bought Resistant)

 

2d6+1, same advantages but +50% instead of +100%, so it's 15 base with + 2 1/2...52 total, for the same or less net effect.  OK, the 2d6 it is.  

 

So, is 48 points for being able to give every party member +4 OCV and 10 PD and ED, reasonable?  It's not cheap, that's for sure, but by the same token we haven't started on limitations, or in some other constructions, frameworks.  Still, it's a LOT.  Heck, if you only look at applying it to yourself (if you can justify it)...Self Only means its' 24 points for 40 active in benefits.  (Even after the defensive abilities effect reduction.)  That's massively better than HFO and slightly better than even Linked.

 

So this still feels like it's too much.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the best way to approach this is to compare to the cost of Usable By Others.  Is it equivalent?  I mean, I can give another person +30 STR and they don't even have to pay the END if I build it right.  But Aiding 30 STR is about 9d6 (average effect).  Is being able to add more points later game breaking?  Only if its too inexpensive.

 

I don't really care about constant.  There's no functional difference between buying constant and just re-using the same ability over and over for the purposes of this exercise.  The convenience of constant doesn't really change anything in this context.  But delayed fade rate does matter, because it means the difference between likely gaining the full point value or not.

 

By way of explanation, look at your example

Quote

So, let's see

2d6 is base 12

Constant, 0 END (+1)

to 3 stats (+1)

+100% (+1)

 

2d6 roll averages ~7 points per phase of application to one character.  That power fades at 5 points per turn, per character.  Unless your aid is larger, you're going to start chasing your tail very soon if you have very many people to grant the power to, constant or not.  And that's even without the bonus total.

 

But if you add in "fades 5 points per minute" now the cycle stops, you can easily grant the max amount to every character unless we're talking about a host of targets.

[Hugh Neilson]

So, buy 4d6 Aid, or buy 2d6 Aid, doubled maximum, for the same price and use twice as many actions to hit the maximum?  That seems a poor solution.

 

That initial +1 was chosen (for all adjustment powers) because moving to 1 recovery per minute is largely moving to "lasts the entire battle".  Further increments do not have similar value.

 

Let's consider Christopher's model.  I can buy 30 points of Aid, Reduced Fade Rate +1, Doubled maximum +1, for 90 points.

 

Or I can buy 45 points of Aid with the same reduced fade rate, which enhances the maximum by only 50% at the cost of needing more actions to max out.

 

Bump that increased fade rate to +2 and I can buy 30 points of Aid, Reduced Fade Rate +2, Doubled maximum +2, for 150 points.

 

Or I can buy 50 points of Aid, reduced fade rate +2 for the same 150 points.  Now I am only 10 maximum lower.

 

But we're fast reaching the point where UBO will be the better buy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the issue here is that it either looks too cheap or looks worthless because it costs too much.

 

Quote

So, buy 4d6 Aid, or buy 2d6 Aid, doubled maximum, for the same price and use twice as many actions to hit the maximum?  That seems a poor solution.

 

That's exactly the solution now in place with the rules.  Buy 4d6 Aid or buy 2d6 Aid+2d6 more Aid to increase your max effect.

 

But there's an aspect of this that needs to be considered.

 

Let's say I buy Aid 5d6 (30 active points) and 5d6 more aid "only to increase maximum effect".  That's a 60 point power that allows me to grant... 60 active points to someone else with a fade rate of 5 points per turn. Average roll of 3.5 on the die, its going to take 9 phases to get it to take effect (ignoring the fade rate which will chew at this every turn; taking that into account, probably 11 phases or even  more), again on average.  That makes any character with this build worthless, all they do in combat is move around and Aid ... one person over and over.  For the entire fight.  So the construct is basically worthless at this kind of build.

 

SO let's just admit that this kind of build is never, ever going to be used on short-term Aid powers.  Just never.  There's not enough time to make it matter in a fight, and nobody wants to spend the entire fight, every fight as a vending machine.

 

The only way this "can do more than the base stated dice" build is useful is in a long-term investment sense: Aids that last for hours, not turns.  With that kind of build, you have a valid time to give people enough of the Aid to make it useful and not fade even as you're trying to hand it out.  Yeah, its dull for Aid Lass to use her power to make people slightly better for twenty minutes in the Quanjet, but that's off camera, so who cares?  it happens between panels in the comic.

 

So any discussion of this has to focus on the effect of buying the power so its over a slow fade rate over along period of time, not in-combat comparisons.

[unclevlad]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

2d6 roll averages ~7 points per phase of application to one character.  That power fades at 5 points per turn, per character.  Unless your aid is larger, you're going to start chasing your tail very soon if you have very many people to grant the power to, constant or not.  And that's even without the bonus total.

 

 

If it's constant, then I apply it to a character once.  That character gains 7 * SPD points per turn, and only has 5 fade.  Then I move to the next person and repeat.  Where is the tail-chasing?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Then I move to the next person and repeat.  Where is the tail-chasing?

 

Because you fade every turn 5 points, on every character.  You can stay sort of ahead, but its always losing power and you're constantly burning END.  How many people in your party?  That's how many phases you use to Aid them all.  How much END do you have to use on just maintaining 5 Aid powers at the same time constantly?  Even at half END that's going to exceed your recoveries.  Plus without uncontrolled, attack powers require you to keep maintaining that ability.

[unclevlad]

20 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Because you fade every turn 5 points, on every character.  You can stay sort of ahead, but its always losing power and you're constantly burning END.  How many people in your party?  That's how many phases you use to Aid them all.  How much END do you have to use on just maintaining 5 Aid powers at the same time constantly?  Even at half END that's going to exceed your recoveries.  Plus without uncontrolled, attack powers require you to keep maintaining that ability.

 

That's why it's Constant *and* 0 END.  Now, if you want to say, OK, to have 2 copies of the power running at once, I need Uncontrolled...well, that's only another +1/2.  Want to require terminating conditions?  OK, 20 minutes.

 

Uncontrolled makes things worse...because if A can activate it (without Uncontrolled) on A, B, and C...if it was costing END, this'd be fine, right?...then if A gets stunned, it stops on *everyone*.  Paying for Uncontrolled means it lasts on all recipients until termination conditions are reached.

 

BUT...my reading of the rules says that I can apply Aid STR, +2d6, Constant, 1/2 END to as many people as I want, and it'll run on everyone until I run out of END.  I don't need any form of UOO to do this.

 

If you agree with that?  Then it works if I take it to 0 END.  Now...is it too broken for words?  Well...maybe.   But that's separate...germane, but separate.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

You seem to approach this from the starting point that the purpose of Aid is to provide a constant enhancement for multiple characters’ abilities.  I disagree, for two reasons, and I submit that it’s primary purpose is to provide a short-term boost, not a long-term to permanent enhancement.

 

First, Aid was not in Champions initially, and was never added.  It first appeared in Fantasy Hero, which I credit to a desire to add enhancement spells like D&D’s Strength – short term, one target. 

 

Next, it folded into the system rules commencing in 4e, where it caused significant issues, in part because it was blended with Healing.  Imagine 1d6 Aid, All Stats below starting maximum, Self Only, Only to Starting Levels, Constant (taken for a high metabolism speedster).  Sounds pretty innocuous until applied to recover an average of 3.5 STUN and 7 END every phase by a 6 SPD character.  Even if he is at -45 STUN.

 

5e curtailed that. Steve looked at it pretty close for 6e, with part of the analysis being the theory that self only, 0 END Aid should cost less than just buying the stat up since it required actions.  

 

So now, we ended up with 2d6 Aid, 0 END, Self Only that cost 9 points, required 2 phases and added 12 CP  Tack on Constant and it’s the same 12 points that buying the stat would cost, although it’s halved for defensive abilities, so still not dead on.

 

But that's really just a baseline, as it  is not, in my view, the intended use of Aid (or, put another way, its purpose in the toolkit).  Let’s look at that another way.  I want a magic Belt of Giant Strength that adds +15 to my STR.  Will you suggest:

 

(a)   +15 STR (15 AP), OIF Belt (-1/2), 10 points; or

 

(b)   2.5d6 Aid STR, 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2) (30 AP), OIF belt (-1/2), Self Only (-1), 12 points?

 

Points aside, I am thinking that, if you want to always have +15 STR, you buy +15 STR, not an Aid Power.

 

I am going to speculate, as he does not write designer notes, that Steve removed the Increased Maximum from Aid, at least in part, because it was an orphan mechanic within the system.  Logically, it should also have been available for Drain, and Transfer, and anything else that caps in similar fashion.

 

So where are we now?

 

Well, if I want to add 30 STR to my entire team, I could buy +30 STR, Usable by up to eight Others (+1), must be within Reach to grant the powers (+0) for 60 points.  This simply takes my "I want more STR at all times so I buy extra STR"

concept to "I want my teammates and I to have +30 STR all the time".

 

To Aid 30 points, I need 5d6 Aid, probably AoE (+1/4) to get all in reach, 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), for 67 points.

 

Pretty comparable.  The Aid is unlimited in the scope of how many I could add STR to.  I could get super-cheesy with either one and slap on a ton of limitations since I expect to apply the effect out of combat.  This seems to be working.

 

So what does your +1 “increased maximum” add to the game?

 

Well, the Aid becomes 2.5d6 Aid, probably AoE (+1/4) to get all in reach, 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Double Maximum (+1) for 49 points.  If you give me “takes a turn to reach full addition” for that UBO at -1/4, it costs 54 points, so still pretty comparable.  At -1/2, it’s 45 points.  No way is it more limiting than that.

 

So I can already build your “long term multi-target powerup” without Aid at all, much less increased maximum.  Why do I need increased maximum in the game?

But we kept Increased Maximum for Absorption.  Why?  Probably because Absorption is a very different power.  No dice, just 1 CP per 1 BOD in the attack.  So what is that?  Well, I guess it’s a limited form of Aid.  It’s 0 END (+1/2), Constant* (+1/2),  Self Only (-1), increase limited to BOD of physical or energy attack that strikes him.  It costs 3 CP per die (thanks to Standard Effect), so that “limited by physical or energy attacks” must be a -2 limitation.  It's a lot tougher to take advantage of that Increased Maximum, which is another reason maintaining it is less of a big deal.

 

* Arguably it’s Triggered by being hit by an appropriate attack, and Limited to the BOD of that attack, so even more complex to build.

If we really want to take a radical approach, maybe with UbO, we did not need Aid at all.  It's just a limited form of UbO.  But that's like trying to make Regeneration a limited form of Healing, and we know how well that worked out!

[unclevlad]

Not at all.  I agree the intent is to be short-term.  That's not the point.  What CAN I do with it?  I'm not the one suggesting that Inc Max Effect should be added back;  that's CRT.  I'm exploring the ramifications.  Your analysis is rooted in a notion of "this is what we intended it for" whereas I don't care about that.  Here's the power;  it is what it is.  What can I do with it?  That's what is going on here.  Whether it violates intent or not is irrelevant because players don't know intent.  And I prefer to try it with simple tools like Constant and 0 END...NOT because I want it to last all day per se, but because that means it becomes part of the pre-battle prep, and does it with as few actions on my part as possible.  It also has no dubious limitations which are fundamentally there to shave points only.

 

The point about applying it to multiple characteristics reflects the math structure.  2d6 Aid wit +3 advantages is 48;  4d6 Aid with +2 advantages is 72. Knock the advantages down to +2 versus +1, it's 36 versus 48.  

 

Also note that CRT was offering a +3/4 version first, just to see if it could work out, as a more-expensive advantage.

 

 

 

 

[Greywind]

If intent is not part of the power explanation in the book it has no bearing.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

If intent is not part of the power explanation in the book it has no bearing.

 

I agree.

 

For example, the 'intent' on Aid may simply be to counter Drain, rather than serve as a boost, or alternative to buying up characteristics.  After all, it's almost exactly structured as a reverse Drain.  The single-characteristic, Self Only boost is *a* model, but not a particularly good one.  How about 

 

Aid 2d6, applies to STR, SPD, and OCV (+1), Constant, 0 END, self only.  18 points for +10 STR, +2 OCV, and +1 SPD...nice little boosts.  They'd be 10 each;  7, with a -1/2 limit like Linked or OIF.  And I'm not pushing with those.  Could make it 4d6+1...25 active.  +20 STR even with STR having 1/2 END, +5 OCV, +2 SPD.  39 points for 70 effect.  A -1/2 limit drops it to 47 but that's still shaving 8 points.

 

(Forget HFO.  Build a power that fundamentally acts like an HFO, like, say, 4/4 Damage Negation, nonpersistent, and perceivable if allowed for "this shows the person is CLEARLY a super."  Or nonpersistent and full phase to activate.  Even just the -1/4 of nonpersistent helps notably.  NOW, you've got a 40 active power to link to for a boatload of Characteristics individually, for perhaps a +6d6 HA at half END, 12/12 resistant defense, etc. etc.)

 

That's talking about the intent point, and how analytical choices can be problematic in other situations.  If we go with "increased max effect" at +1, then we have

Aid 2 1/2 d6 (15 points), double maximum effect (+1), --> STR, SPD, and OCV (+1), constant, 0 END. 

 

60 active points for 30 points applied to STR, +6 OCV, and +3 SPD.  Self Only makes it 30 real points;  the -1/2 limit on all 3 powers as above, would still cost 60.

 

At least the 5d6 Aid would cost 90 active.  That'd be harder to fit into a framework.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I'm not the one suggesting that Inc Max Effect should be added back;  that's CRT.  I'm exploring the ramifications.

 

And honestly I didn't say it ought to be, only that I wondered what the reasoning was for just removing it and if maybe we come up with something to replace it other than "just buy more dice and tack a limitation on it".

 

Exploring the ramifications of that is really what I was interested here.  I don't have a solution I just wanted to discuss the whys and wherefores.

 

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And I prefer to try it with simple tools like Constant and 0 END...NOT because I want it to last all day per se, but because that means it becomes part of the pre-battle prep, and does it with as few actions on my part as possible.  It also has no dubious limitations which are fundamentally there to shave points only.

 

Yeah as I said, the "increased maximum" stuff really only has validity if its long-term, not for quick battle effects.  That's the realm that this has to be hashed out.

 

But I personally am of the opinion that concern about "how can this be abused" has to have a limit, because everything in Hero can be abused so the argument needs to be "will this likely be abused and how easy is it to do so" not "can it be done?"  There are several powers with potential for severe abuse in the rules that have been there for decades, because they serve a useful function and have notations to warn people about it.  Just plain ol' Aid flat out with no modifiers at all can be easily abused (part of why its been recosted and adjusted several editions in a row).  Adding multiple powers at once makes it even more potentially abusive, which is why the book has all those symbols and text warning GMs about that.