Much needed help

[WreckItDavey]

Hello fellow players and game masters!

First I want to wish a happy new year in advance

 

Now into what I would like some help : we started a campaign some weeks ago, the master was very willing to help us out with the characters creation, and still is, but I do not wish to ask her help again becasue it would seemed like I've not read the rulebook at all. I did read it, over and over again (and still am), but it seems I underestimate its complexity, and becasue of this delay we haven't actually started playing ( we did some ''preliminaries'' in world building, introductions of the characters, what we're doing, out NCP team mates and so on, but we've yet to actually ''kick in'' into the campaign)

 

So...here we are : I want to show up to the next sessions with the sheet ready , so if you could help me out I'd be really grateful 

What I wanted to do is a ''mimic'' of the OG Thor from its conception in the earlies Marvel Comics, the Donald Blake / Thor duality 

My character is a Greek soldier (of modern times, mid 2010s) who has inherited a Spata (ancient greek sword) from his grandpa, who was a greek soldier during the Greco-Italian war. This sword contains the sould of an ancient Corinthian soldier who died bravely in a battle during the Corinthian War. For his act of valor, his soul was turned into the one of a demigod and sealed into the sword, so that ''whomever wielded this sword, if worthy'' and so on so on

My master told that I need to make two different sheet, one for the modern soldier one for the ancient one, since the two are completely different people (just like Donald and Thor who shares ''presence'' )

 

To help me out, my master told me to pay attention to the ''Benchmark table'' at page 20 of the PDF version

The modern soldier does not have any powers, he is ''just'' an elite soldier fitting the ''Notable'' on the Benchmark table, while the ancient one should fit the ''Superhuman '' Of course I don't want it to be OP, over maxed in everything (also 'cause the given points does not allow it), this character is made for action, to fight to the very end, a ''Brick'' or, as the rulebook says, ''Mythic Brick'' 

Master gave us 360 points, I want to spend 80-100 for the modern soldier, and the rest for the ancient one.

To summary :

Modern soldier is an elite soldier in both body and mind, master in all form of h2h, melee and firearms, fluent in three or four lenguages (still haven't decide which ones, of course greek and english ) while the ancient soldier has the above, adding the of super strenght, durability, agility, leaping and a ''berserker'' mode

I hope I putted everything on the table for whoever will be kind to help me out

The next session should be after all the holidays, so approximately in two weeks, so we got time

 

Thank you in advance, see you 'round

Edited December 30, 2022 by WreckItDavey

[Tom Cowan]

have you looked at multiform?

I would first make the modern soldier at 100 points with the added power of multiform for a 360 point.  Then take a copy of the modern soldier and add 260 points of the ancient soldier powers to it.

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, WreckItDavey said:

To help me out, my master told me to pay attention to the ''Benchmark table'' at page 20 of the PDF version

 

First off, there are several versions of the rules. I am guessing you are using Champions Complete.

 

13 hours ago, WreckItDavey said:

The modern soldier does not have any powers, he is ''just'' an elite soldier fitting the ''Notable'' on the Benchmark table, while the ancient one should fit the ''Superhuman '' Of course I don't want it to be OP, over maxed in everything (also 'cause the given points does not allow it), this character is made for action, to fight to the very end, a ''Brick'' or, as the rulebook says, ''Mythic Brick'' 

Master gave us 360 points, I want to spend 80-100 for the modern soldier, and the rest for the ancient one.

To summary :

Modern soldier is an elite soldier in both body and mind, master in all form of h2h, melee and firearms, fluent in three or four lenguages (still haven't decide which ones, of course greek and english ) while the ancient soldier has the above, adding the of super strenght, durability, agility, leaping and a ''berserker'' mode

 

Emphasis added.

 

Multiform is useful where a character has two entirely different forms. Thor and Blake are a good example in that Thor is not lame, has no medical skills and likely lacks other skills and abilities that Blake has (Blake might well be more intelligent, for example).

 

If the ancient soldier form has all of the modern soldier's abilities (specifically thinking of firearms skills, perhaps martial arts HTH that would not have existed in ancient Greece and other abilities inconsistent with being an ancient Greek demigod), and adds on other abilities, this may be better envisioned as Only in Alternate ID.  If he does not have the sword, he cannot transform.  That -1/4 limitation on all the extras comes at the cost of being unable to access those abilities in some situations, but it sounds like the modern soldier will at least be able to contribute to the game if the sword, and thus the extra abilities, are not available.

[LoneWolf]

With the hero system you can build anything you want in multiple different ways.   Concept and special effect are incredibly important to the hero system.  Before you spend a single point think about what you want your character to be.  The Hero System is open ended which means there is no limit to strong a particular power or stat can be.  In Theory you could spend all your points on STR.  In practice that is a bad idea because your character is unbalanced.  The character concept portion of the book has some guidelines on various power levels to try and ensure that all characters in a game will be of a similar power level.   These are only rough estimates, not something written in stone.  For example, it lists the stat range for a standard super heroic game as 10-40 and has DC range of 6-14.  Having a character with a 60 STR would probably be ok as long as they did not have anything that raised the damage above the DC maximum.  Having a 60 STR plus and martial art that adds an extra 4 DC would probably not be acceptable.

 

There are two basic ways to create the character you describe.  The first way is to build the modern solider first, and then add the powers he gets from being a demi-god with the limitation in hero id only. The second is to the power multiform.  This will result in two separate characters each with their own abilities.  With the multiform the characters cannot use the abilities of the other form.  For example, Thor would have absolutely no knowledge of medicine while in the Thor form.

 

For the ancient warrior I would probably go for a low-end brick and focus more on skills.  Greek mythology tends to favor skill over brawn, with Hercules being the exception.  But it depends on what type of character you want.  If your character is more along the lines or Ares than Athena than maybe the higher STR and berserker mode fit.   Some extra STR would be appropriate, but probably does not need to be more than 30-40.  I would take some skill levels and maybe some extra DC on his martial art.
 

[Duke Bushido]

Dude, I am stumped.

My initial thoughts, like some of the folks above, is "only in hero ID."  That is only,a -1/4 limitation on abilities bought that way, though, so after building the "normal guy," you have burned a hundred points on him, you are going to have to pick and choose the abilities of your super version carefully.

 

There are additional limitations that work with the theme- possibly the spear is a focus for these powers (remember: if you don't buy it as a focus, then it is just a special effect of being in your super form), but then you have to decide the details of the focus (and there are several, getting more complex as the editions get newer; the value of the modifier varies greatly depending on the final build of the focus and how easy it is to be deprived of it and what other effects being deprived of has, and even if someone else can use it. 

 

Charges and time limits fit the concept: how many times a day or week can you become Super Warrior?  How long can you remain in that form?  Are there external things that can force you out of that form?  (Some of these are just as likely to be Disadvantages / Complications, if they deprive you of your super form and not just certain powers.  It depends on how you apply them.)

 

A favorite of mine for the "super form" type build, especially with Only in HERO ID concepts, is that all "super form" abilities cost END (even those that ordinarily would not) and pull from a large END Reserve that can only be recharged by changing _out_ of super form.  This is a nice limitation on the Recovery for the Reserve, and, depending on the size of the Reserve and the Recovery (for example, if they are both very small), can potentially boost the value of the Only in Hero ID, as your ability to remain in that ID becomes very dicey, and even the ability to assume that ID at any moment is questionable, as you are at the mercy of a slow recharge rate.   Similarly, the value of OHID may be increases if you are only allowed to assume that form twice a day for one hour each time.

 

As far as I remember, there is no exact discussion of either of these situations in _any_ of the rules, so before assuming that such builds automatically make OHID worth -1/2 or any value that isn't -1/4, you should first present your ideas and your thoughts on why these builds should affect the value of certain Limitations to your GM and get her  thoughts as well, then work on the builds together.

 

Remember that she has goals and guidelines for her campaign in mind, and ultimately, she may  not allow any additional value for these builds, etc.

 

Now remember _always_ when working with the GM that she may shoot down some of your builds, or individual pieces of them.  Always ask for a reason (I love it when my players do this to me, because it makes me re-think my reasoning, and _sometimes_ it makes me realize I have made my decision bases on a personal conciet that has no real bearing on the game at hand-- it makes me a better GM, in a way).

 

Don't let asking why lead to an argument!  The goal her is to have the GM give her decision one last think-through, and for the player to learn a little bit about the GM's play style and thinking.

 

Also remember that things like "I want to keep things a bit more simplified for the time being" or "for the game at hand" _are_ valid reasons: complex builds add additional bookkeeping, time-tracking, and other factors to the game that the GM may not want slowing things down (especially if she or some of the players are fairly new).  You might hear something like "I can't tell you" or even just "I would rather not elaborate on that."

 

I can't speak for every GM, but I can speak for me:

 

If I can tell you why I shot it down, I very happily will tell you: it is best for us to be on the same page all the time, right?

 

When I shoot down an idea and I won't tell you why, it is usually for one of three reasons:

 

There is a better-than-good chance this build will step on the toes of another player or that player's concept for his character (though I can usually tell you this.  Sometimes, though, a player requests a secret reveal in-game for some particular ability).

 

There is a major part of the story or an important challenge that your proposal will turn into crepe paper.  While it makes an amusing moment, few people are satisfied when an entire campaign- or even just a couple of adventures in the campaign- turn out to be complete cake walks.

 

Expanding on this  is the "critical scene."  There is a scene already built into the adventure that must go a certain way-- I don't mean railroading, such as one character _must_ lose or _must_ win or that sort of thing-- more along the lines of "this battle must be difficult enough."  Maybe there is something time-sensitive going on in the background that the characters are very much aware of, and a fifteen-minute fight builds tension over the time being lost to a slugfest.  Perhaps it is vital to the roleplaying side that two particular characters pair up to face each other for some big reveal- I mean a _good_ reveal; none of that "Luke, I _am_ your father" crap. Perhaps a villain is actually a double-agent, or needs to beseech a particular hero for help without his allies being aware of it- who knows?  It is quite possible you have suggested a build that makes it tactically ridiculous for that particular character to be squaring off with you.  Sure; he can get in touch some other way; gamism, clues want to be found, and all that-  but for role play, what may have been a pivotal dramatic moment cannot happen now.

 

 

It is a short list, and there are a couple of other entries (such as "I have seen this get horribly out of hand before"), but all of my "no" and "I can't elaborate" replies all boil down to "I have a legitimate reason to believe that this build will deny you or another player from having fun."

 

Remember that your GM is not your adversary.  If she says no, even if she can't give you a reason, I promise she has one.

 

 

Now, I started all of this because I said "I'm stumped."

 

That is because she gave you two sheets.  This implies that she wants you to make two separate characters.  This may be a "simplicity's sake" kind of thing-  she just wants to have clear definitions of what is in play at a given moment for your character, etc.  In fact, multiple sheets is the standard for using the Power "Multiform."  But then you leave us with no idea as to whether or not she said " use Multiform."

 

That implies that she wants two characters in play.  That is the standard for  Summon.  But you don't say that she said "use Summon," either.  

 

That means that you will have two characters, with two character's worth of skills and abilities (and actions) available all the time- one character can't just conveniently keep disappearing the moment the other conveniently appears (can they, Clark?!), so the only thing left is that some sort of GM fiat is at play so that one character vanishes and the other appears without any sort of game mechanic involved.

 

I have _zero_ problems with this, personally, but it _does_ leave me stumped, because once we enter GM fiat country, there really isn't any way for us to know her line of thought, or make suggestions that are likely to gel with it.

 

I am afraid that on this one, she is really _the_ person to whom you should be adressing your questions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sketchpad]

First off, welcome to the boards and the Hero System, @WreckItDavey. Hero isn't always the easiest system for folks to grok, believe me, I understand. I have a group of excellent players that the system stumps more than once. That said, if your Game Master doesn't mind, I would ask them a bunch of questions, as they may have the insight on the campaign they're planning on running, and any house rules they may like to see.

 

I would lean more toward the Multiform-style of character, myself. Blake and Thor were very different characters (as can be seen in last year's issues of Thor), and the character might reflect that. This means they may have different skills, complications, and, of course, abilities. I've always worked from the more powerful character and made the weaker form an alternate of that form (not visa-versa). So maybe give the Spartan form increased abilities (like Strength and Constitution), while also having some powers (maybe a "Thunderbolt of Zeus" attack, or "Shield of Athena" defense) while in that form. Meanwhile, I would build the solider on around 200pts to make them an exceptional human being. He may have some useful skills, talents, and perks while in that form, and maybe both beings are aware of the other... even if they're not happy about it. If you want to make things interesting, you might give them both the Accidental Change complication with the Spartan appearing while "under moments of high stress" and reverting to the solider while "out of combat."