Accidental Change with Time Limit

[Steven Wayde]

I want a character with Multiform to automatically change back to his true form after a given time, say one hour.

 

I can limit the Multiform power a few ways on the true form (Time Limit and Continuing Charges come to mind), but how would one apply this constraint to the Multiformed character?

 

My instinct is to give the Multiform an Accidental Change Complication, but that seems…not right. The character would know the time limit and act accordingly; it’s not accidental.

 

Any of you herophiles out there have thoughts on this? Is there a rule somewhere I’ve overlooked?

[unclevlad]

You don't.  You apply it where the multiform is bought...on the true form.  While most parts of the alternate forms are deactivated...only the powers of the current form are in play...the exception here is for the multiform itself.  That IS active and in play, if generally invisibly.  

 

Now...what the value of the Time Limit should be...that's potentially trickier.  Read the paragraphs about Reversion.  

 

Note that if you don't want to go the full Multiform route, another option is OIAID.  Construct a power that, when activated, defines you're in your AID.  Typically, this should be your biggest persistent power, or the one that makes the core statement (for Colossus, it'd be the Growth and DI combo power.)  Now put the time limit on THAT.  Everything else gets the OIAID, and thus...automatically ends.

[LoneWolf]

Uncleavlad is right you don’t do anything on the alternative form.  One thing to remember on a multiform is that they are completely separate characters.    You have to buy everything for each character so any skills especially knowledges do not carry over.   For the most part the characters will have some awareness of the other but that is not always the case.  They may not even be aware of each other existence. 

 

A physical complication will prevent the forms from knowing about each other.  If the true form is not aware of the alternate form you will probably need a way to trigger it automatically.  Accidental change is the obvious solution. 
 

[Duke Bushido]

All the answers you have received are correct; I just wanted to add a bit for clarity in understanding the reasoning:

 

Multiform is a power.  There is a lot that goes with it; you can have all kinds of powers when you activate it, and a whole new body or whatever, but Multiform is the power.

 

The time limit you want affects the single power "Multiform."  It is to the cost of that power that the modifier would be applied, and it would be paid for by the 'form' that paid for Multiform.

 

If a character had Flight with a time limit, the limitation is applied to Flight and paid for by the character that paid for Flight.  Like Every power, Multiform is treated the same way.

 

 

For what it's worth, I have always argued it should be classified as a framework- still work the same, but be classified as a framework.

 

But it isn't.

 

 

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

One thing to remember on a multiform is that they are completely separate characters.    

 

*ALMOST* completely separate.  I think the distinction is what prompted the question.  The point of connection is that the Multiform power is still in effect, even in the alternate form.  The point about "completely separate characters" relates more to the character sheet...nothing from the base form carries over to the alternate form for free, and vice versa, so you can't argue to get something for nothing.  

 

The other point of congruence is the shared memory.  If they were truly completely separate, their memories wouldn't cross over.

 

These are, admittedly, very fine differentiations.

[assault]

Just go with Accidental Change in the alternate form. It doesn't matter if the character knows the limit.

Word it so that the character can't just change back into the primary form and back again to bypass the limit.

I can't remember how I did it with my Hourman build, but I had it so he couldn't just pop more Miraclo and start again, until at least another hour had passed.

[LoneWolf]

A lot of it will depend on the special effect, but there are lots of examples of multiform where the two forms do not share memories.  A werewolf for example often does not share memories, but a character that has multiple suits of powered armor should.  It depends on how different you write up the forms as.  To me either way has advantages and disadvantages so the character can choose how they want it to work without having to pay extra or get a limitation. 

 

If you purchase most of the same skills for both forms, they should share memories, if the forms have little to no skills in common and have widely different mental stats they probably don’t. 

[unclevlad]

I was talking of the default case, where memories are shared.  

 

It's actually nastier to allow the normal form to remember what the werewolf form did.....

[Gauntlet]

Though in current story lines with werewolves they always know what they did while being a wolf as that is just a part of them.

 

Kinda sucks though. I loved "An American Werewolf in London" as he was a Werewolf as they are supposed to be, not like they made them in the 2000s vampire movies.

[Steven Wayde]

My inspiration for the power is the Cap’n Tripps character from the Wild Cards novels.

 

He is a “normal” human who has a number of different solutions/potions/drugs that transform him into different super heroic identities for one hour at a time.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Steven Wayde said:

My inspiration for the power is the Cap’n Tripps character from the Wild Cards novels.

 

He is a “normal” human who has a number of different solutions/potions/drugs that transform him into different super heroic identities for one hour at a time.

 

 

This being the case--  and her3 is somrthing you will almost never hear me recommend, as I loathe its very existence and double-despise its use as the crutch upon which complicated builds are proppwd so as to,avoid either the cost of the buulding itself-- might I recommend the Multipower of Everything?  It is more commonly known as Power Pool, but for a mere 19.99, you can get 9.99 worth of every single possible thing, 9.99 at a time.

 

Multiform iant going to let you make dizens and dizens if super powered characters.  It will let you make exactly as many as you can pay for.  Throw five hundred points into power pool, and you can spend the rest if your life making new versions of yourself, and it is all book-proper.

 

You know how some Swiss army knives are 3/8 of an inch thick with four different blades or tools, and others are 3/4 of an inch thick with eight blades /tools, and then there are the chunky 1-1/4 inch thick display case Swiss army knives with eighteen tool bits in them?

 

Buy a 500 pt  power pool, and you get a swiss army knife that's eight-hundred thirty six miles thick and do what you want.  Reinvent yourself a thousand times in one campaign.  Just remember you can only apply the time limit discount to the pool points, as time lumit does not affect the control cost; it only affects your access to the pool.  Neat!  Discounted swiss army knife!

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Buy a VPP limited to only Multiform and you have an unlimited supply of possible Supers forms.

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

This being the case--  and her3 is somrthing you will almost never hear me recommend, as I loathe its very existence and double-despise its use as the crutch upon which complicated builds are proppwd so as to,avoid either the cost of the buulding itself-- might I recommend the Multipower of Everything?  It is more commonly known as Power Pool, but for a mere 19.99, you can get 9.99 worth of every single possible thing, 9.99 at a time.

 

Multiform iant going to let you make dizens and dizens if super powered characters.  It will let you make exactly as many as you can pay for.  Throw five hundred points into power pool, and you can spend the rest if your life making new versions of yourself, and it is all book-proper.

 

You know how some Swiss army knives are 3/8 of an inch thick with four different blades or tools, and others are 3/4 of an inch thick with eight blades /tools, and then there are the chunky 1-1/4 inch thick display case Swiss army knives with eighteen tool bits in them?

 

Buy a 500 pt  power pool, and you get a swiss army knife that's eight-hundred thirty six miles thick and do what you want.  Reinvent yourself a thousand times in one campaign.  Just remember you can only apply the time limit discount to the pool points, as time lumit does not affect the control cost; it only affects your access to the pool.  Neat!  Discounted swiss army knife!

 

 

 

But one of the nice things about multiform is that first they are quicker to use, you don't have to spend a ton of time figuring out how you are going to have your character setup. I am not saying that you are like this, but I have had a number of players with similar setups who will take 20 minutes to an hour to figure out how they want to re-put things together. And second, if they do have different personalities, it makes roleplaying rather fun and interesting.

 

All in all, it matters what your play style in along with what exactly you are looking to have your character be able to do.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Buy a 500 pt  power pool, and you get a swiss army knife that's eight-hundred thirty six miles thick and do what you want.  Reinvent yourself a thousand times in one campaign.  Just remember you can only apply the time limit discount to the pool points, as time lumit does not affect the control cost; it only affects your access to the pool.  Neat!  Discounted swiss army knife!

 

 

Not true.  A common limitation on a 6E VPP reduces the control cost.  This also breaks down because Time Limit is complex.  It's not a limitation except on persistent powers.  On Instant or Constant, it's an advantage.  Multiform is persistent, so it's fine.  Many things you'd buy are also persistent...but lots of things aren't, including all attack powers, barring those bought to persistent.  Here's the rules:

 

Quote

--as a Limitation for Instant Powers that have some sort of lasting or lingering effect but do not cost END to maintain (such as Barrier, Entangle, and Mind Control)
--as an Advantage for Instant Powers that do not normally last or linger and do not cost END to maintain
--as an Advantage for Constant Powers that cost 0 END or only cost END to activate
--as a Limitation for Persistent Powers that cost 0 END or only cost END to activate

 

6E1, 346.  Oh, and there's 3 separate duration to advantage/limitation value charts.

 

I've occasionally played with Time Limit...and almost every time, I've gotten bitten by this in HD, often when reloading the character build, when it does a complete modifier analysis...then forcibly changes my -1/2 limitation to a +2 advantage because something in it breaks down. 

 

Also note that this is still going to cost MORE than Multiform.  500 point multiform only costs 100 points.  For 400 points in the VPP, even with a -1 limitation...that's 200 character points before we even talk about the control cost. 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Buy a VPP limited to only Multiform and you have an unlimited supply of possible Supers forms.

 

Yeah, that's the other way.  It might work out a bit cheaper than, say, 16 different multiforms.  2x the number of forms is +5 points, and it's *not* reduced by the Time Limit.  In the VPP, the control cost takes the place of multiple forms...and now the Time Limit, among other things, applies.  

 

Hm.  Another angle is how to implement these form-switching potions.  Been a LONG time, but I vaguely remember the character.  The specific potion's got to be pre-built;  this also suggests he won't have the full ensemble of available forms, just some subset of them at any one time.  In the VPP context, it's not really "takes a long time to change powers" quite;  that fits with the time needed to make up new potions, but activating any one is quick.  It's not RAW per se, but it's a solution kind of outside what RAW considers.  To be simple, it's Multiform...no VPP.  With multiple forms...but now, limit THOSE.  Treat them like charges...each "form" requires a "charge" and the charges have to be predefined.  If you buy 8 forms, then you can have, say, 2 flier/blasters, 3 bricks, a speedster, and 2 TK types, for example.  Those would be changeable with a lab.  This isn't a limitation on the actual forms, just on how the number of forms is treated.  

 

Trying to implement highly unusual literary character concepts is never simple.   

[Hugh Neilson]

If we assume he is limited to 8 potions (just to pick a number), this could be a VPP of Multiforms with x8 forms.  He can have any 8 forms available, but has to spend considerable time brewing a new potion (changing 1 or more of the 8 possible Multiforms). Charges would actually be expensive as you would need continuing charges of an hour.

 

Or the VPP could hold 8 separate Multiforms, each with a 1 hour Continuing charge.

[LoneWolf]

Multiform already has a cheap way to get extra forms. Each +5 gives you double the number of forms so getting 8 extra forms is only 15 points.  Since the limitation only apply to the control cost it will probably be cheaper to simply purchase more forms instead of using a VPP. 

 

For example, purchasing 8 400-point forms with the time limit of 1-hour costs 54 point, a 54-point VPP with a control cost of 80 with the same limitation costs 77 points.  If I increase the number of forms to 2048 then the multiform costs 77 points.   So, while in theory the VPP gives unlimited forms in reality the straight multiform can get enough forms that it does not matter.

 

No sane GM is going to allow any player to write up a multiform on the spot during the game.  The game is going to come to a complete stop if a player can write up multiple characters during combat.  Even out of combat the player is going to be so distracted writing up characters that they are still going to be a major drag on the game.  The only way something like this is going to work is if the player is limited to prewritten forms.  If that is the case a VPP is simply paying more points for something they cannot use.      

 

The numbers above are a rough estimate the actual cost is probably going to be different depending on how the power is bought.  With that many forms you probably don't need to go to the game limit on points as each form can be tailored to specific need. 

[unclevlad]

The MP was another thought, yeah, but now you're paying for each slot individually.  8 slots at 5 points each.  Rather than 8 forms for Multiform, that's only 15 points, because you get 2x the number of forms for 5 points.

 

1 hour continuing charge... a charge lasting 1 hour is 6 steps.  This gives a -1/4 limitation...huh, that's not as bad as I was afraid it would be.  But that's replacing the Time Limit, which is -3/4.  On one level...that's fine.  The base character's points aren't going to really be a big deal.  IIRC, Trippy's base form has nothing else of note, so we've got points to burn on him.

 

Huh.  Yeah, OK.  It's NOT the efficient approach, but if the point cost for the base form likely doesn't care....then something like an 8 slot multi, using continuing charges lasting 1 hour, feels like a good fit, and it's the cleanest definition.  

 

Note that if the charges is per slot, then you can take 2 charges for -0.  That gives a bit more flexibility, making the slot costs *somewhat* represent the different forms only.  With each slot being 1 dose, you're probably gonna duplicate some of the forms.  You could go up to as many as 3 charges...that's getting to be +1/4, so you'd need to increase the size of the MP.  

[unclevlad]

2 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

For example, purchasing 8 400-point forms with the time limit of 1-hour costs 54 point, a 54-point VPP with a control cost of 80 with the same limitation costs 77 points.  If I increase the number of forms to 2048 then the multiform costs 77 points.   So, while in theory the VPP gives unlimited forms in reality the straight multiform can get enough forms that it does not matter.

 

Let's see.

80 points for the base multiform.  -3/4 limit means 4/7 * 80 = 320/7 = 46 points.  x8 forms is 15...and it does NOT get reduced by the time limit.  (The x2 number of objects is basically an "adder" on the total power.  It does not affect the active points in the power, and it's not modified by the power's internal advantages/limitations.)  So it's 61, not 54. 

 

VPP pool size is 46...not 54.  You don't have to pay for the multiple forms.  Control cost starts at 40...but it ALSO gets reduced by the Time Limit.  It also gets reduced somewhat because we're saying the VPP is Multiforms only.  Given that Multiforms are so versatile, I wouldn't give this much.  I might say -1/4, but wouldn't argue much about saying it's +0.  If we call it +0, then the control cost is 23.  So, we're at 69 points.  

 

Note that both of these basically allow arbitrary form swaps, among any defined form...accepting your point that I'm only gonna allow pre-submitted forms, even for the VPP.  Note that this was why I was talking about, for this case, specifically related to the number of forms, but NOT to the multiform cost itself;  it's also what's captured with the multipower slots on charges structure.

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If we assume he is limited to 8 potions (just to pick a number), this could be a VPP of Multiforms with x8 forms.  He can have any 8 forms available, but has to spend considerable time brewing a new potion (changing 1 or more of the 8 possible Multiforms). Charges would actually be expensive as you would need continuing charges of an hour.

 

Or the VPP could hold 8 separate Multiforms, each with a 1 hour Continuing charge.

 

 

While I very much liked the comment, it is also _exactly_ the reason I hold out that Multiform should be considered to be a framework: so you dont take your 80 percent discount and then shove it into another framework.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[LoneWolf]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Let's see.

80 points for the base multiform.  -3/4 limit means 4/7 * 80 = 320/7 = 46 points.  x8 forms is 15...and it does NOT get reduced by the time limit.  (The x2 number of objects is basically an "adder" on the total power.  It does not affect the active points in the power, and it's not modified by the power's internal advantages/limitations.)  So it's 61, not 54. 

 

VPP pool size is 46...not 54.  You don't have to pay for the multiple forms.  Control cost starts at 40...but it ALSO gets reduced by the Time Limit.  It also gets reduced somewhat because we're saying the VPP is Multiforms only.  Given that Multiforms are so versatile, I wouldn't give this much.  I might say -1/4, but wouldn't argue much about saying it's +0.  If we call it +0, then the control cost is 23.  So, we're at 69 points.  

 

Note that both of these basically allow arbitrary form swaps, among any defined form...accepting your point that I'm only gonna allow pre-submitted forms, even for the VPP.  Note that this was why I was talking about, for this case, specifically related to the number of forms, but NOT to the multiform cost itself;  it's also what's captured with the multipower slots on charges structure.

 

The 5 points for doubling is part of the multiform power, this is not the +5 point to get double number of objects.  This is the same thing as increasing the non-combat multiplier on a movement power or increased mass on teleport.   This means it is actually affected by advantages and limitations. 

 

My point total is accurate for the multiform. 
 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by LoneWolf

[unclevlad]

My apologies, so you are.  Sometimes it is built in;  most times, I think, it's not.  That's really poor rules organization.  

 

I still think, for this specific case, I like the multipower definition, where the slots have continuing charges the most.  If the forms available lack a strong dependency on the external factor...fine, it's a pill, but the character can always carry 5-6 of each...yeah, I'd rather go with whatever xN number of forms you wanna go with, 8 or 16;  as noted, at this point, the value of any more gets to be really marginal.  

 

 

[LoneWolf]

That is still going to cost a lot more.  If you use a multipower with the limitations on the slots you pay 80 points for the pool and 6 points per slot assuming each slot has 1 continuing charge of 1 hour.   That would mean the cost for 8 forms is now 128 points vs 54.  

 

Unless I am not understanding what you are doing that seems to be a really bad way of doing it.

[Cloppy Clip]

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

While I very much liked the comment, it is also _exactly_ the reason I hold out that Multiform should be considered to be a framework: so you dont take your 80 percent discount and then shove it into another framework.

 

It does seem odd to me that the rules make a big deal of laying out which powers are allowed in a framework, and reinforcing that frameworks should not be stacked inside other frameworks, only to let you put Multiform, transforming exclusively into copies of yourself with these forbidden powers, in frameworks. It feels caught halfway between two viewpoints (people can do whatever they want in a framework vs adding Multiform to the list of forbidden powers), and it doesn't feel like the most natural position to take.

[Gauntlet]

But if the GM is worried about time limits, and has newer players, Multiform is probably the best way to go as everything is already written up and they just switch sheets. Using VPP can be rather slow as the player has to write everything up on the slot and keep an eye on the point total especially if the player does not have all the powers, limitations, and advantages completely to memory and has to use the book to look them up.

 

But overall, the choice would best be based on your character's special effect. For example, if it is a wizard that has hundreds of spells he/she can cast and can change them rather quickly (perhaps even while in the middle of combat), VPP is the way to go. But if your character has the option to be completely changed in several ways (such as various types of power armors or various types of actual forms) then Multiform is the way to go.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

While I very much liked the comment, it is also _exactly_ the reason I hold out that Multiform should be considered to be a framework: so you dont take your 80 percent discount and then shove it into another framework.

 

It would be pretty reasonable to classify Multiform as a special power so that it would default to "not allowed in a framework".  However, that could be problematic for some games. In a Fantasy game, a Wizard with a spell to take on the form of an elemental, an animal, a dragon, whatever would not be able to incorporate this into a spells framework, if that were the structure of magic in-game.

 

The costing question is a good one, though.  I'll have to take a look at that later.

 

8 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

That is still going to cost a lot more.  If you use a multipower with the limitations on the slots you pay 80 points for the pool and 6 points per slot assuming each slot has 1 continuing charge of 1 hour.   That would mean the cost for 8 forms is now 128 points vs 54.  

 

Unless I am not understanding what you are doing that seems to be a really bad way of doing it.

 

I think the Time Limit is more appropriate than the Continuing Charges. That would allow the pool cost to be reduced for that common limitation.

 

4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

But if the GM is worried about time limits, and has newer players, Multiform is probably the best way to go as everything is already written up and they just switch sheets. Using VPP can be rather slow as the player has to write everything up on the slot and keep an eye on the point total especially if the player does not have all the powers, limitations, and advantages completely to memory and has to use the book to look them up.

 

But overall, the choice would best be based on your character's special effect. For example, if it is a wizard that has hundreds of spells he/she can cast and can change them rather quickly (perhaps even while in the middle of combat), VPP is the way to go. But if your character has the option to be completely changed in several ways (such as various types of power armors or various types of actual forms) then Multiform is the way to go.

 

The VPP could work similarly if used to simulate 8 alternate forms at a time, creating the faux "character sheet" for each combination of abilities in advance. The switch between them could be charges on the Cosmic advantages, with limitations such as only using each combination once, with a single charge for each (so 8 switches in total) requiring a pill/potion, and powers fading after one hour. The Multiform is much cleaner, though. The non-Multiform option does not allow for new complications of the SuperForm.